Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 07:37:33 -0600 (CST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: More on my Tough Rout Question In message Tue, 18 Jan 94 23:44:56 EST, ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) writes: > Carl kindly pointed out that 16C7 is also within 6 MF of the beleagered > broken French unit in the foxhole in 16G5. (The ADJACENT German unit is > in 16H5.) I don't really think this has any effect on the question, > though. The squad has two target hexes at 6 MF instead of one, but once > it picks one the problem is as before. I replied to Dave, but I should mention this to the list... IMHO, C7 should be the rout target rather than B5. B5 is a woods-road. To use B5 as a rout target, the unit would have to enter at the road movement rate. But the rout rules say you have to rout to the nearest woods. To enter the hex on the road is not entering the woods. To enter the woods would require 2 MF (and thus 7 MF total to reach the _woods_.) > What happens? And why? Again, surrender. It doesn't matter whether the unit has to go to C7 or B5, he has to try to reach either target in one rout phase if it can. Since it can, it has to try. To do so would subject it to Interdiction. And to save itself from Interdiction, it would have to use Low Crawl. This, coupled with the Adjacent unit spells Surrender. *-=Carl=-* ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 07:44:06 EST Subject: Thanks for the Information All, thanks for the various mailings I have received regarding tournaments and fanzines. I sought to reply to each person who sent me mail, but got bounced mail to some of you. This is my thanks to those of you who sent me a note and didn't hear back from me. The survey is coming, the survey is coming, the survey is coming.......... John ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 08:58:01 EST From: ut00894@volvo.com (Doug Maston) Subject: Debacle at Korosten Guys, I have put a new version of the scenario "Debacle at Korosten" on the archive at carlo.phys.uva.nl. If you have retrieved and printed the original (which bore the ASL logo), please trash it and reprint. No copyright infringement was intended. I did not realize the logo was a trademark. I thought it denoted an ASL rules level scenario as opposed to a SL level scenario. Doug Maston ----- Date: Fri, 14 Jan 94 13:06:02 -0600 From: Bryan Milligan Subject: Re: ASL scenarios Craig, I recently emailed the Hill to ask such a thing. Here's what I got back: ----- Dear Mr. Milligan - I am afraid that someone has misled you. We have not, nor do we plan to in the near future, issue the updated SL scenarios in "one package". Instead, these will continue to appear as space and my interest permits in the pages of the ASL Annual and The GENERAL. Thanks for your interest in ASL. Best - Rex A. Martin -----(reprinted without permission, but I don't think he'd mind) Maybe if we all beg we can get the updated scenarios without having to buy all of the back issues of the General. --- Bryan Milligan bryan@kolsky.tamu.edu ---- My views are just that. ---- ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 10:15:36 -0800 From: dadec@wv.MENTORG.COM (Dade Cariaga) Subject: Nothing, really. Hi y'all. Just bored, so I'm kind of rambling about leaders. Have you ever noticed that good leaders (9-2 or better) are kind of a mixed blessing. At least, it seems that way to me. Whenever I've got a good leader like that, I'm very tentative about taking risks with it; and I positively cringe whenever it has to take a MC. But here is my absolute WORST experience with a good leader: I was playing Ranger Stronghold as the Americans, and my OB included a 10-3. Excellent! But then, German turn 1, during the Advancing Fire Phase, my opponent lobs a worthless 1FP shot (8FP, halved for long-range, halved for advancing fire, halved vs. concealed target) +1 vs. woods TEM and gets a 3. NMC. No big deal, I mean, hell it's a 10-3. Boxcars!! Casualty dr: 6! On turn 1, before he even had a chance to shoot. I think that's the day I saw my first gray hair. Dade ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 13:24:43 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Re: ASL Scenarios Bryan wrote: > Maybe if we all beg we can get the updated scenarios without having > to buy all of the back issues of the General. There's another problem, too: some of the issues of the General (including all of volume 24) are sold out. I ordered all the back issues with ASL that they had (at $4 a pop for sometimes just a scenario or two -- ouch!) but still ended up with an incomplete collection. Meaning that photocopying (which AH will do for $1 a page, I think) ends up being the only solution. A scenario pack might reduce the sales of those back issues (which probably don't move too fast anyway) but would probably sell pretty well itself. I figure most people end up copying what they don't have from a friend. Illegal, sure, but AH hasn't given them a convenient alternative. Most people would rather have cardstock scenario cards than sometimes-blurry photocopies, and most people would rather do the right thing copyright-wise if the price isn't outrageous. A scenario pack would cost next to nothing to design (just the time to fix typos and maybe stick a cover on it) and could be sold for $15 or so for the 30-odd G-series and T-series scenarios to date. Some people who have the Generals would buy it anyway just to have the scenarios in a nicer card format, to keep from having to lug the magazines around to tourneys. Sounds like a winner to me, but I don't know squat about printing costs. I doubt that filling Mr. Martin's mailbox with pleas is a good idea. Maybe a letter signed by 50 people who'd state their eagerness to purchase one would help. JMO, Dave ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com P.S. Has anybody heard anything from ASLUG in the last millenium? I subscribed in November and still haven't seen anything. ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 11:20:48 PST From: 6600P@VM1.CC.NPS.NAVY.MIL Subject: Firing at Empty Hexes In general, can you fire at an empty hex? I've always thought you couldn't, but I've just seen two people say you can. I can't find anything in the ASLRB that says you can or can't (I know, keep looking), but can anyone out there provide some ruleish answer to my question? Thanks. Dave ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 13:25:41 CST From: mbs@zycor.lgc.com Subject: ASLUG Dave, I only have a guess about ASLUG. Usually when an issue has been late, it has been due to a tournament that was at about the same time. The ASL Open is this weekend, and it is being run by Fort himself, so I expected a delay with the January issue. I also remember someone saying that Fort decided to combine the December and January issues into one double issue (including 4, not 2, scenarios). So therefore I'm not surprised at the delay. If it extends into February, then I'll be concerned. Cheers, Matt ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 12:47:14 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Re: ASLUG > I only have a guess about ASLUG. > > Usually when an issue has been late, it has been due to a tournament > that was at about the same time. The ASL Open is this weekend, and it > is being run by Fort himself, so I expected a delay with the January issue. > > I also remember someone saying that Fort decided to combine the > December and January issues into one double issue (including 4, not 2, > scenarios). So therefore I'm not surprised at the delay. If it extends > into February, then I'll be concerned. I've been contemplating subscribing to one of the 'zines. Which is the best? Also, I'd like to include updated subscription information for the 'zines into the FAQ. There's list at BAS' FTP site, but it seems a little old. Does somebody have such an updated list of 'zines. Currently the FAQ only mentions ASLUG and ASL NEWS. What the heck, it's short, here's what's in the FAQ now. Anybody care to update this for the FAQ? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Q13. What other periodicals are out there? ASLUG (ASL Union of Gamers) $30/yr US & Canada and $36/yr foreign. 12 Issues per year mailed around the first day of each month. Issue #7 is next. Send your money (US funds or IMOs) payable to: Gary Fortenberry 232 Linda Dr Burleson, TX 76028 (USA of course) Telephone 817-447-2850 ASLUG is producing an excellent product with at least one scenario per issue. At the Point (ATP), the zine previously produced by Mark Hanna, had some extreme difficulties and has been "purchased" by ASLUG so ATPs supply of unpublished information will still see the light of day. ASL NEWS Send $15 (US Dollars) either in cash or best/safer International Money order payable to: Philippe Leonard 28, Avenue Seghers B-1080 Bruxelles Belgium ASL News is published 4x per year near the end of Feb, May, Sept and Dec. It is a very fine publication and is worth a try. If a person wanted to get the ASL News Special Oldies #1, #2, & #3 #6 & #7 (4 & 5 are in the french language), for $4 each, you would have the 25 senarios and articles that appeared in issues #1-20. The next regular issue is #23. If you want any of the oldies add that to your order. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 11:41:20 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: Firing at Empty Hexes > In general, can you fire at an empty hex? I've always thought you >couldn't, but I've just seen two people say you can. Yes. C3.41 (89 errata) sez "The Infantry, as well as the Area Target Type may be used to attack... a hex devoid of (targets)." I don't believe there is a rule in Chapter A that specifically mentions firing at an empty hex, but generally speaking, it must be allowed because you can affect HIP units (i.e., you can take potshots at apparently empty hexes in order to try to discover HIP units). Patrick Jonke ----- From: s.belcher@genie.geis.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 07:26:00 BST Subject: Players Database Hey, guys! (You too, ladies.) I'd like some feed back on a project I'm thinking of undertaking. As you may know, my job takes me all over the US. When time permits, I try to arrange a FTF game of ASL. GEnie (and Internet) has been very helpful in that I've made some connections and had some great games. I have my own database of phone numbers and GEnie / Internet addresses of ASL players. I've been thinking lately of expanding this list. If any of you are intested in adding your name to an "International ASL Players Database" please email to me the following: Name: Address: Address: Address: Phone: Alternate Phone: Internet/email address: * OK for me to contact you for FTF play?: (y/n) ** OK to release your info to another player?: (y/n) *** OK to use this info for non-profit mailings?: (y/n) * I guess that I can imply from the fact that you answered that you are willing for me to contact you. I will not release any of your information to any newsletter or commercial concern without your consent. ** This would allow me to give your name, address and phone to another individual like myself who wanted to locate ASL players because they were traveling, moving, etc. A clear statement that this information was for personal use ONLY would be transmitted with the data. (Of course, I could not be responsible for the use / abuse of the data once it leaves me. But all of us are on a public data network, we've already given up some "privacy" just be virtue of being on-line.) *** An example of a non-profit mailing would be club newsletters, ASL fan'zines, etc. (Admittedly, the distiction could get a little blurry here.) mail a catalog / solicitation to ASL gamers. I'll compile the database and periodically upload copies to GEnie or other public sources. The copy uploaded to these sources would only include those who answered "y" to the question "** OK to release your info to another player?" Please send the info with one answer per line, in the same order as listed above. If you don't need to use four lines for your address, or if you want to leave any of the information out, just leave a blank line. A sample response follows: ===Beginning of Sample=== Sam Belcher 4182 New Towne Drive Powder Springs, GA 30073 404 439-6143 404 563-6263 s.belcher y y y y ===END of Sample=== Thanks. Sam ----- From: stewartscott@attmail.com (Scott Stewart ) Date: 31 Dec 69 23:59:59 GMT Subject: East Coast ASL Hello all, Have you noticed how so much of the ASL community is on the East Coast of the US? It seems that most tournaments are there, most of the "power players" live there, etc. Am I imagining it, or is there a real phenomenon going on? I used to live in California (Bay Area), and I had a hard time finding ASL opponents, so I don't think population density has anything extra to do with it. I thought maybe the military had something to do about it, but again I'd say that there's an equal amount of military on both the coasts. Maybe the weather? It could be that the colder weather on the east coast keeps people indoors more, so ASL would be more popular in colder climates. What do you think? -- Scott (who lives in Hawaii now, where there is seemingly NO ASL.) ----- From: peschko@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Edward Peschko) Subject: Re: Firing at Empty Hexes (fwd)[P Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 17:08:47 CST > > > In general, can you fire at an empty hex? I've always thought you > >couldn't, but I've just seen two people say you can. > > Yes. C3.41 (89 errata) sez "The Infantry, as well as the Area Target Type > may be used to attack... a hex devoid of (targets)." > > I don't believe there is a rule in Chapter A that specifically mentions > firing at an empty hex, but generally speaking, it must be allowed because > you can affect HIP units (i.e., you can take potshots at apparently empty > hexes in order to try to discover HIP units). > > Patrick Jonke > Hmm... but can you trace an LOS in the process (if nothing is there)? Ed ----- From: r.mosher2@genie.geis.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 02:21:00 BST Subject: Easy question: Sloppy dice -=-=-=- To: From: RIPTON@E7SA.EPI.SYR. -=-=-=- Sub: Easy question: Sloppy dice > 1. Do you use dice cups? Only at tourneys, or FTF too, or even PBEM? Oh lord no --not the dred die cup --REAL men use dice towers!!! > 1b. Are rolls outside the cup always ignored? all cocked dice --out off play area --dropped out of tower are rolled over -- i.e. --both die's are picked up are deposited again. > 2. When not using a cup: > a. If dice fall off the table and land on a flat floor, do you reroll > them anyway? > b. If only one die is sloppy, do you reroll one or both? > c. What other penalties (Sloppy dice -- DRINK!) are in order for > inability to control one's throws? Again --real men use the towers --but if it falls on da floor -reroll that puppy and his brethern. ron --from shaky town -- p.s. --tried to sign up for the AGWAV --but my stuff went astray -- ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 14:55:07 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: Firing at Empty Hexes >Hmm... but can you trace an LOS in the process (if nothing is there)? > Yes, but only after the attack has been declared (as per A6.11). ----- From: Doug Gibson Subject: Re: Easy question: Sloppy dice Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 17:39:51 PST > > 1. Do you use dice cups? Only at tourneys, or FTF too, or even PBEM? > > Oh lord no --not the dred die cup --REAL men use dice towers!!! Watch out for this guy and his dice towers; they cause all opposing forces to turn to 127 partisan HS. B^) I'm not annoyed about losing that game in my first tournament about a year ago, (everyone who drew the partisans did, so far as I know), because I'm pretty darn sure he was the better player, but I just wish it had been FUN. I've got to give him credit for the neato-keen flamethrower impressions, though. FWOOOOSHHHHH!!!!! > > 1b. Are rolls outside the cup always ignored? > > all cocked dice --out off play area --dropped out of tower are rolled over -- > i.e. --both die's are picked up are deposited again. What if they land flat, but are subsequently disturbed by an earthquake? Enquiring (and shaking) minds want to know. > ron --from shaky town -- Here's hoping we don't have to do any more Hazardous Movement.... -- -Doug Gibson dag@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 17:47:40 PST From: Frederick.Timm@Eng.Sun.COM (Fred Timm) Subject: Scenario copying Some time ago AH gave permission for anyone to photocopy any part of an OLD OF PRINT General as long as they charge no more than their costs. I would assume that this still holds true and includes the scenarios. This way you don't need scenario packs. Dave In general you can fire at empty hexes, however you usually either you have the FP for concealment or use TH case K. Ed Yes you can trace the LOS there in the process, but only after commiting to the shot. (You must risk breakdown/sniper). Fred ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 19:46:13 EST Subject: General Reprints and the Survey Thanks for helping me to add yet another GOOOD question on the survey. I'll have you rate your willingness to buy a scenario pack from AH (covering the scenarios in the General). John ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 19:44:10 EST Subject: Re: Nothing Really. Dade has observed what I take to be a general phenomenon about the dice. The closer to the mean value, the less likely something bad will happen. Take your garden variety 7-0 leaders as a case in point. They never die. Nope, just about never. And of course, almost every single time I've had a 10+ leader, he's bitten the dust just as fast as you can say Wound dr is a 6. See? Say it. Takes less than two seconds. In ASL, the impossible happens every day. John "Oh No, I've got a 10-3 leader in my OB, what a ripoff!" Foley grendel@sos.wh.att.com ps, 8-) 8-) ----- Date: Wed, 19 Jan 1994 20:03:01 -0400 (EDT) From: LANCELEU@delphi.com Subject: Re: Rout question Ripton wrote: >Get board 16 out if you want to answer this one. Put a German 247 in >H5, and a broken DM French 457 in a Foxhole in G5. Grain is in season. >No Quarter is not in effect. No other units matter; these two squads >are on the periphery of the action, so none of those "no farther away" >clauses will matter. etc I think the French 457 will need to surrender because even though it enters the woods-road hex in 16B5 in 1MF, the hex itself is still a woods hex (B13.1). So, since this hex is the only one that the 457 can reach within 6MF, the HS has to rout there even if it has to risk interdiction. In this case, my opinion is that it will surrender to the German 247. ----- Subject: BANZAI!!!!!! and more. From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 16:32:00 -0640 hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) writes > Oh, one more question, if you've got a loaded HT that prep > fires, can the PRC unload during movement? > D6.5 ``[The required 1/4 MP expenditure by the vehicle] does not prevent Passengers/Riders from leaving a vehicle that fired in the preceding PFPh and expended no MP in this MPh, although they could not leave the vehicle's Location during that MPh.'' In other words, yes. > And another, if you've got an AFV with MA, CMG, and BMG and > during Advancing fire shoots the MA, can the AFV freely > change CA at the end of the Advancing Fire Phase. D3.12 ``The TCA ... may change .. at the end of any fire phase in which the AFV is eligible to fire without using Intensive fire (as per C3.22).'' C3.22 ``CHANGING CA WITHOUT FIRE: A Gun may change its CA without firing only at the end of a friendly fire phase (not MPh), and only if at that time it is still able to fire without using Intensive/Sustained Fire [EXC: (un)limbering (10.22), and turreted guns with other turreted armament (D3.51)].'' I would read this as saying that the turret may change if any of its turret weapons is eligible to fire, but I am not 100% certain about the reference of the EXC. So long, JR JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: KGP map half done Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 11:41:44 +0100 (MET) Hi everyone, and especially Marty, I received a KGP map for the PERL script from you Marty, but I forgot to save your address. If you send me a note I'll send you my additions to it. For the rest of you that are using the PERL map script, Marty have done a KGP map for the script that is currently incomplete because the KGP terrain isn't in the map script. It also lacks the hill crest lines and level colours. I think it would be very useful as s substitute for the IMHO unreadable map included in KGP (I'm talking about the small map here). If it's OK with Marty, I'll upload this map, along with some new scenario files, to carlo. -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- From: j.sylvester2@genie.geis.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 04:16:00 BST Subject: ASL Open Anyone going to the Open: If you are looking for a place to stay, my roommate just dropped out on me. I won't be monitoring my email before going, so you will have to get a hold of me at the hotel. I should be arriving by 6:30pm. I will either be in the game room or my room. The name is Joe Sylvester, and, no, I didn't drive him away. Thanks, JOE ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 09:13:01 From: tqr@inel.gov (Tom Repetti) Subject: DR psychology Here's how I feel about my DR's: 2: Always pleasing to roll snakeyes; even better than a 3! Happens rarely enough that I feel genuinely lucky and won't bitch about my luck for, oh, say a few Phases or so. 3: This is what I always shoot for when I'm about to roll the dice. I shake them and think "Three, three, three." I roll them and expect to see a 1,2 or 2,1. Sometimes I'm actually surprised when I DON'T see a 3. Odd, huh? But I just love 3's. Twas a 3 that took out each of Carl's King Tigers in Counterattack on the Vistula, so I'm enamored of them. 4: Not a 3, certainly, but also satisfying. With a 4, you're still in Nasty Results territory, including retention of ROF. 5: Depends; on my attacks, a 5 is just fine, but I hate it when my opponent easily passes his MC's with a 5. On a 4 or less, you just shrug your shoulders and figure he just got really lucky, but you can legitimately start to gripe with a 5. 6,7,8: Eh. On a good shot (0 or -1 DRM's), you're looking at a PTC/NMC; on a bad shot you miss. Same for rolling these on a MC; some you win, some you lose. Only time I'm happy to roll a 6-8 is on a Rally attempt without DM, but then's when I usually roll either a 4 or a 10. Oh yes, and a 6 is VERY pleasing when it gives you a Hero and Battle Hardens too. 9: Yecch. Won't do anything on the IFT unless you're really blasting somebody, and even then you surely missed a chance for a KIA. 9 is my standard CC resolution DR, so I don't like CC. Only good thing about 9's is that you can break a 9-2 on a 1MC with 'em. 10: This is what I usually roll on those attacks that really count. And I don't roll 6,4 - I have to roll 5,5 and cower even farther off the IFT than I was. Hard to believe the odds of rolling a 4 are the same as those of rolling a 10. 11: Much better than a 10 since you can't cower with it and it's guaranteed to break an enemy leader. Plus, you can count your blessings that you didn't just malf your SW. 12: Oy vey. Resigned sigh, eyes roll toward the heavens. You've just been given permission to moan and groan, so go for it. Plus, the game just got more interesting because some Gun just broke or some leader just bought it. Tom "I think you don't have enough to do" - Dad ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 11:09 EDT From: Dan Sullivan Subject: AH toll free order number Hey, Does anybody have the Hill's 1-800 number for catalog orders? The games/parts list that I have is woefully out of date, and I can't seem to get the number through information. ------------------ Dan Sullivan djsullivan@bbn.com ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 09:14:07 -0800 From: dadec@wv.MENTORG.COM (Dade Cariaga) Subject: DRs In response to Tom's summary of DRs, I have to make one exception. There are definitely times when "snake-eyes" are not welcome. Specifically, any time I make a MC with Russians, Allied or Axis Minors, or (shudder) Italians. A "2" on the MC roll almost guarantees the subsequent vaporization of the unit via surrender/disruption/blind-charge-across-open-ground-in-the- face-of-whithering-fire. (Submitted in the spirit of the unwritten ASL rule that positively forbids positive thinking.) Dade ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 13:32:47 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: More dice sillyness [Random greetings table: 2,1] -> Feliz Navidad! (D'Oh!) One little problem with Tom's DR summary: > 11: Much better than a 10 since you can't cower with it and it's guaranteed > to break an enemy leader. Plus, you can count your blessings that you didn't > just malf your SW. Don't you ever play the Russians or the French or the minors or the Italians? B11 is most definitely not your friend. While I'm here, I'll summarize the dice quiz results: 1a. Do you use dice cups? Always: 8 FTF but not PBEM: 1 Tourneys only: 4 Never: 4 Best dissent: "It smacks of dice fetishism." Also, there are several different systems in use. There's the ever-popular dice-glass system, where you leave the dice in a face-up glass and shake it. Then there's the opaque inverted cup, where you flip-drop, then cringe and lift. Finally, there are the dreaded Dice Towers. I won't even start. Has anybody ever seen a Pop-a-Matic game that has two dice instead of just one? Anybody figured out how to dissect one and put two dice inside? Anybody know where to buy a Pop-a-Matic die set without buying a copy of Sorry or a similar game? Let me know -- I really want to do Pop-a-Matic ASL. Even if only for dr's, I'm gonna buy one. (Pop-a-Matic is a system where a die is inside a little case with a transparent hemisphere above a flat bottom. You push down on the top, and the spring-loaded gizmo inside bounces the die around. Great for kids, 'cause they can't lose the die, and they can't shake the die for an hour before each roll. Yep, adults have the same problems, but the game companies haven't caught on yet.) 1b. Do you reroll dice outside the cup? Yes: 11 No: 0 2a. Do you reroll dice that fall off the table, even if they land flat? Yes: 11 No: 0 2b. If only one die is sloppy, do you reroll one or both? One: 3 Both: 11 It depends: 1 (But not on what came up on the dice, he swears.) 2c. What are some good penalties for sloppy dice? Opponent gets a temporary SAN of 7. Knock over the roller's ? counters in retaliation. Roller must get the next drink. General shame and ridicule from the other players (Lame.) KIA all the roller's units that he knocked about. "It's never been a problem." (Sigh. These are the same people who don't have the taunt-n-pose phase penciled in on their ASOP.) Informal observation: The players with higher ladder positions tend to use dice glasses. Probably because they're the same ones who've attended tourneys. So if you want to improve your play, stop studying your ASLRB and start rolling in a glass. Disclaimer: Not all answers add to 100%. This whole survey means nothing. I probably added wrong. If you want a real survey, get somebody who knows how to use a Telestrator to conduct it, not somebody who's scrounging toy stores for Pop-a-Matic kids' games. [Random farewell table: 6,6] -> Malfunction random farewell table Dave ripton@e7sa.spi.syr.ge.com ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 11:47:18 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - and a question! >From Dave > (Pop-a-Matic is a system where a die is inside a little case with a > transparent hemisphere above a flat bottom. You push down on the top, > and the spring-loaded gizmo inside bounces the die around. Great for > kids, 'cause they can't lose the die, and they can't shake the die > for an hour before each roll. Yep, adults have the same problems, but > the game companies haven't caught on yet.) Hey, my kids will push the Pop-a-Matic down and wait 10 to 20 seconds before releasing! There's always a way to be annoying :-) :-) OK, got a ASL question (don't I always). A B C Say a shot crosses B and intersects the hexside between A and C. B has a wreck (thank you Dave Van Kan) and an AFV. A has an AFV, but is not in LOS of the target. C has Orchard. I figured the hindrance was +2 for this mess. Now, put a wreck in C (don't get excited Dave, there's not really one there), and assume the AFV in A is in LOS of the target. What's the hindrance? +2, +3, or +4? Don ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 12:59:18 CST From: mbs@zycor.lgc.com Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - and a question! > From hancock@ono.geg.mot.com Thu Jan 20 12:53:25 1994 > Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 11:47:18 MST > From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) > To: asl@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov > Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - and a question! > Content-Length: 1016 > > > >From Dave > > (Pop-a-Matic is a system where a die is inside a little case with a > > transparent hemisphere above a flat bottom. You push down on the top, > > and the spring-loaded gizmo inside bounces the die around. Great for > > kids, 'cause they can't lose the die, and they can't shake the die > > for an hour before each roll. Yep, adults have the same problems, but > > the game companies haven't caught on yet.) > > Hey, my kids will push the Pop-a-Matic down and wait 10 to 20 seconds before > releasing! There's always a way to be annoying :-) :-) > > OK, got a ASL question (don't I always). > > A B > > C > > Say a shot crosses B and intersects the hexside between A and C. B has > a wreck (thank you Dave Van Kan) and an AFV. A has an AFV, but is not > in LOS of the target. C has Orchard. I figured the hindrance was +2 for > this mess. > > Now, put a wreck in C (don't get excited Dave, there's not really one there), > and assume the AFV in A is in LOS of the target. What's the hindrance? > +2, +3, or +4? > > Don > > I assume same level LOS, and that the AFV mentioned in B is not moving (or motion, or whatever-the-hell-they-call-it) so that it is a hindrance. Then the hindrance should be +3. That's +2 for the 2 vehicles in B, and +1 for the orchard in C. Yes, I think the orchard does count, even along the hexside. If you put a wreck in C, I believe it increases the hindrance to +4 (assuming LOS to the wreck in C exists). Cheers, Matt ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 13:34:06 EST Subject: THE SURVEY IS COMING TOMORROW This is just a reminder to watch for the ASL Readership Survey for the Internet (and anybody who gets a copy of this on GEnie and any other BBS, as long as you can send it to me electronically). I will include complete instructions on filling the survey out along with the message. If you read this but do not receive your survey by Saturday, send me email at grendel@sos.wh.att.com. If mail bounces to me, then put a request up on the list (avoid this unless desperate). My plan is to leave about a 2-3 week period for filling out surveys unless I'm still within a 1 to 2 sigma boundary as far as incoming flow of mail. I'll notify folks ahead of time about when the survey period will end. I will then build an Incredible Machine using mice in cages, bowling balls, blowtorches, boots, ramps, and candles next to cannons in order to "Start the Programmer." Hopefully, I'll win, and the Programmer will process all the survey data into a human readable form. I will send this information on to Brian Youse who will publish it in the next Digest, hooray! 8-) More to come tomorrow. Sincerely, John "I'd rather have Conscripts than a SAN of 2 any day" Foley ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - and a question! Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 20:17:03 +0100 (MET) Hi, [ From Don ] > > OK, got a ASL question (don't I always). > > > > A B > > > > C > > > > Say a shot crosses B and intersects the hexside between A and C. B has > > a wreck (thank you Dave Van Kan) and an AFV. A has an AFV, but is not > > in LOS of the target. C has Orchard. I figured the hindrance was +2 for > > this mess. > > > > Now, put a wreck in C (don't get excited Dave, there's not really one there), > > and assume the AFV in A is in LOS of the target. What's the hindrance? > > +2, +3, or +4? [ Matt answers ] > I assume same level LOS, and that the AFV mentioned in B is not moving > (or motion, or whatever-the-hell-they-call-it) so that it is a hindrance. > > Then the hindrance should be +3. That's +2 for the 2 vehicles in B, and > +1 for the orchard in C. Yes, I think the orchard does count, even along > the hexside. If you put a wreck in C, I believe it increases the hindrance > to +4 (assuming LOS to the wreck in C exists). I am almost certain the wreck/AFV is +1 per hex, regardless of the number of wrecks/AFVs in the hex. This is because I checked it recently because of another discussion here. Then, there is the question about how to interpret the rule that says that the hindrance modifier can never exceed the range. As I interpret this, two hexes of range can never cause more than a +2 hindrance [except during spe- cial circumstances like factory debris... Well, AFAIK wrecks might even be an exception to this - time to check the rulebook]. Last, yes. Orchards DO block LOS exactly along a hexspine, since orchard is inherent terrain. -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 14:48:34 EST From: brian@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Brian Youse) Subject: From Perry Cocke >From p.cocke@genie.geis.com Wed Jan 19 20:41:04 1994 Return-Path: ----- From: p.cocke@genie.geis.com Date: Wed, 19 Jan 94 04:10:00 BST Subject: Help Pardon me if I ramble, but there have been several things scattered over the last few days that I want to comment on. Dave gave an excellent explanation of ABS, but since I had already typed out the quote from ASLUG, here it is. The Australian Balancing System involves (and I quote from the ASLUG 'zine): ""Each scenario will have six levels of handicap bidding. Axis 1-3 and Allied 1-3. Players may also bid 0 for either side, indicating a desire to play that side as printed on the scenario card with no handicapping. After being assigned an opponent, players should follow these steps in order: 1)Choose a scenario; 2) setup the board; 3) Pull out all the counters in the OB; 4)Secretly write down the side and Handicap level they wish to play; 5)Reveal choices. If players choose different sides, each plays the side and the handicap level chosen. If both players choose the same side, the player with the higher handicap level plays the side he chose and the other player plays the opposite side at Handicap level 0. If players choose the same side and Handicap level, Low DR plays side chosen with Handicap level bid; High DR plays the other side at level 0. It is important to note that these are HANDICAPS. the higher the bid the more you GIVE UP." A little pedantic in its phrasing for my tastes, but that should give you an idea of the process. Alternately, the players could agree on what combination of balances or "Handicap levels" constitutes a balanced scenario and then take it from there. The 'zine FFE has started publishing "six levels of Handicap" for the various modules as proposed by the estimable Messrs Guy Chaney and Mike McGrath (the infamous Chaney'N'McGrath, aka Chaney and his friend). I believe they have done Paratrooper, Beyond Valor, Streets of Fire, and Yanks. The original balances are inevitably incorporated in some manner or other into the new six levels, and Chaney'N'McGrath outline what combination of levels they think make a scenario balanced. For example, herewith is a sample: "DASL 1 Guryev's Headquarters (R1,G1) R1-In any given turn the Russian reinforcements (SSR4) may not enter more units than the current turn number or the turn's reinforcement dr (whichever is less).* R2-R1+ exchange a German 9-2 leader for one of the 8-1s. R3-R2+ lower the Russian SAN to 4 G1- Building dL1 is considered fortified (with no tunnels) at ground level.* G2- G1+ the Russians receive 8 additional concealment counters in their onboard OB. G3-G2+ add a 628 and a LMG to the Russian onboard forces." As you can see, most levels build on the previous one, but this is not absolutely universal. The asterisk represents the Handicap level associated with the original printed balance. Usually, this is the first Handicap level given, but this also is not absolute. The levels given in parentheses on the first line represent what the authors think would be the most balanced scenario. In this case, both sides would get the original printed balance (the thinking being that the Russians need a little help, but that the original balance is too much, and so is diluted by also giving the Germans their original balance. In an already perfectly balanced scenario (Chaney'N'McGrath admit they are out there, though few and far between) the suggested balance would read (R0,G0). In a very unbalanced scenario, the authors would suggest (as they do in the case of Gavin's Gamble) (US0,G2). Hope this helps explain ABS. Concerning Pat Jonke's call to have a 'zine or the mailing list do some long term playtesting of some old scenarios for re-balancing them, the immediate reaction of the mailing list was that this was already being done in FFE by "Mike McGrath and his friend." The only data base these two will ever consult is their own vast store of ASL- scenario knowledge, occasionally supplemented by an opinion from a respected opponent. To tell you the truth, I suspect this is probably the best way to start assigning Australian Balances to our various scenarios. Obviously, though, Pat doesn't feel this is where the issue should be left off. Perhaps his opinion of his close friends Chaney'N'McGrath is not as high as my opinion of them is; or perhaps he knows that the opinions of just two people - no matter how well informed - can tend to be a bit narrow and can easily overlook an important thread amidst a multitude of scenarios and strategies. So let not Pat's rallying cry die unconsidered. Brad asked two questions: 1) why so many scenarios with 747s; and 2) what do you need to get the all the updated pages of the ASLRB. The answer to 1) is not merely that US designers can't deal with that 6 morale; also of importance is the wealth of info readily available on actions by US paratroopers, as well as the scenario simplicity possible when dealing with the paratroops. WRT 2) all new ASLRBs have the '87 and '89 errata incorporated. In order, though, for anyone to get the errata pages issued in Gung Ho! and Croix de Guerre, one must purchase those modules. For a truly up-to-date Rule Book, one should also have the Debriefing page from every Annual; for a state-of-the-art Rule Book, one should additionally have all the Q&A published in the General. The 'zine ASLUG was publishing an up-to-date compilation of the Q&A and Debriefings in alpha-numeric order; I am patiently awaiting the up date to include the '93b Annual. Informed discourse and play benefits mightily from attention to rules discussions on this mailing list and on the GEnie BBS, as well as private Q&A from the Hill. These latter should not, of course, become an official part of your ASLRB. In the "game" vs "historical simulation" debate, I too am firmly on the side of "game." Yet the history is also important to me. In many respects, I rely upon the designer to have done his job by including only historically appropriate units in an OB fighting over semi-accurate terrain. Luckily, this faith is not misplaced when it comes to the Hill; a few mistakes, some fudging, but overall as accurate as you can get. WRT placing/throwing a DC "to and from within" a PB, I agree that this would ordinarily be bizarre behavior, but I can envision instances where the Japanese might to do so. WRT retaining captured FT/DC by the purchasing side, I think this is truly bizarre behavior. If the four of you agree that that interpretation of the rule is goofy, then re-interpret it. I stand naked before the world (meaning I have nothing to back this up) and say: Captured FT/DC ain't meant to be retained by the purchasing side even if the Original effects DR that removed them was less than 11. The Laxness/Stealthiness of a stack checking for Straying at night depends on the Majority Squad Type (E.4) of the stack. "E1.533 BERSERK: A berserk unit is always Lax (even in daytime)...." One could always Advance in on a Berserker. Or Advance in after a berserker (if you don't care about Ambush). I guess we all know where Steve Petersen comes down in the Firepower vs Maneuver debate. You are correct, Steve, it is hard to argue with Firepower and AFVs. Still, you gotta admire those pesky Partisans. Who could really admire the Bulgarian Army? (He asks, hoping not to enflame anything.) Anyway, thanks for the laughs , Steve. They were well timed. I'm not sure I agree with Chuck's interpretation of KGP CG SSR 5, automatic Freedom of Movement for two best leaders. I'm not saying he is wrong in saying that the leaders don't have to roll, but I am taking the issue under advisement. I was thinking about a fourth possibility: the leaders get to roll for Freedom of Movement automatically, i.e., they don't have to wait for an attack. I'd advise buying Hollow Legions before The Last Hurrah for the same reason that Steve Petersen would: AFVs. I always use a dice tower or, preferably, a dice cup (clear glass) even when doing my RePh secret DRs. I hate rolling into a box now, let alone onto the board. The House Rule sez if either die isn't flat or jumps out or whatever, then reroll both. Ridicule alone has served well in controlling sloppy dice. Why would you make someone take an alcoholic drink if he is already having trouble controlling the dice? I use as thin a thread as is practical when checking LOS to help cut down on the Goetz Motion Offense. Seriously, "ordinary" sewing thread seems to do just fine. I think a thread as thick as a center dot would be way to thick. Now that I have thoroughly confused everyone who hasn't been following each of these threads: thanks for your attention. ....Perry Brian, I sent the preceding msg to the list Monday night, and haven't gotten a bounce yet. I also only got 4 messages from the list today. Is there a problem beyond myself? If not, please post the message for me. ....Perry ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 12:50:31 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Pop-a-Matic (Re: More dice sillyness) Dave: You forgot to mention that after a game of ASL using the Pop-A-Matic system you'll be deafened, thus simulating shell-schock rather nicely ("Would you kids stop playing that damn game; it's driving me nuts!" -Numerous North American Parents-). Ciao, Brent Pollock [stuff deleted] > Has anybody ever seen a Pop-a-Matic game that has two dice instead of > just one? Anybody figured out how to dissect one and put two dice > inside? Anybody know where to buy a Pop-a-Matic die set without > buying a copy of Sorry or a similar game? Let me know -- I really want > to do Pop-a-Matic ASL. Even if only for dr's, I'm gonna buy one. > > (Pop-a-Matic is a system where a die is inside a little case with a > transparent hemisphere above a flat bottom. You push down on the top, > and the spring-loaded gizmo inside bounces the die around. Great for > kids, 'cause they can't lose the die, and they can't shake the die > for an hour before each roll. Yep, adults have the same problems, but > the game companies haven't caught on yet.) [stuff deleted] ----- From: peschko@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Edward Peschko) Subject: More dice sillyness Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:10:11 CST > > While I'm here, I'll summarize the dice quiz results: > > 1a. Do you use dice cups? > Always: 8 > FTF but not PBEM: 1 > Tourneys only: 4 > Never: 4 > > Best dissent: "It smacks of dice fetishism." > Well. I just did a small 'statistical' study on dice rolls (yes, i was bored) with the following criteria (150 die rolls, two trials each, rounded cornered dice). Set 1 'Wanting to roll well' Ave: 6.54, 6.65. Set 2 'Wanting to roll average' Ave: 6.92, 7.1. Set 3 'Wanting to roll bad' Ave: 7.32, 7.43. Now my computer says (using a simulated random number generator of 100000 150 roll trials to make a graph) that set 1 and set 3 are both over 95% of the mean. I don't know if this is significant in any way shape or form, but it sure as hell is going to make me want to kiss the dice before rolling that 36 even attack..... Cheers, Ed ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 11:25:55 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: From Perry Cocke > Obviously, though, Pat doesn't feel this is where the issue should be left >>off. Perhaps >his opinion of his close friends Chaney'N'McGrath is not as high as >my opinion of them is... What?? Let McGrath (aka Guy Chaney's friend) have final word?? Wait 'til I lay "ASL: the 2nd Edition" on ya. I'm going to add a rule to the Victory Conditions section: "A26.1 McGrath always loses. Period." Not even the Belarussian Balance Provisions will be able to save Mike then... har-har! Patrick "too much caffeine this morning" Jonke ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 14:54:51 From: tqr@inel.gov (Tom Repetti) Subject: Other Balancing Systems > Not even the Belarussian Balance Provisions will be able to save Mike > then... har-har! You've already seen the Australian Balance System. With advance apologies, disclaimers, and smileys, we give you now: Yugoslavian Balance System - Both sides argue for months about what the balance provisions are. Nobody agrees and nobody wins. French Balance System - One side insists on playing SL instead of ASL. Nightmare ensues when both systems are at work on the same board. Finnish Balance System - Player with more vowels in his name gets a free AAMG. Canadian Balance System - Both players amiably agree to let the other side have whatever else they want in their OB. Italian Balance System - One side gets the balance and the other side surrenders. Idaho Balance System - Both players so completely amazed to be playing FTF with a real person that they forget about balance. Los Angeles Balance System - Whatever bounces out of the counter storage trays onto the board is added to the OB. Tom "As a math atheist, I should be excused from this" - Calvin ----- From: kinney@ra.cgd.ucar.EDU (Rodney Kinney) Subject: More dice psychicness Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:00:02 MST Edward Peschko informs us of his intriguing experiment: >(150 die rolls, two trials each, rounded cornered >dice). > >Set 1 'Wanting to roll well' > Ave: 6.54, 6.65. > >Set 2 'Wanting to roll average' > Ave: 6.92, 7.1. > >Set 3 'Wanting to roll bad' > Ave: 7.32, 7.43. and I've just gotta bring something up. There was a group at Princeton called themselves the Princeton Engineering Anomaly Research Laboratory that did a bunch of research into stuff like this. I'm not kidding. They took volunteers, sat them in front of random number generators of various kinds and asked them to try to influence the outcomes. Zillions of trials, tons of data, solid statistics. They found significant correlation just like Ed did! The results are written up in a book called (I believe) "Margins of Reality," which I recommend to anyone curious about this kind of thing. Relating to ASL: Playing this week, I took a sniper in a stack with a 9-2 and four other units. I had a very bad feeling about the Random Selection roll and sure enough, the leader took it right between the eyes. Sometimes I get a bad feeling about an impending roll, and contrive some way to alter the course of the future, such as changing dice, taking a different shot or just escaping to the bathroom (I decided not to do anything different for the above sniper attack.). I don't believe you can play boardgames without being superstitious, and suspect this kind of behavior isn't uncommon, but just how many people are willing to own up to pulling this kind of mumbo jumbo? rk ----- From: nexus@isis.cgd.ucar.EDU (Jeff Berry) Subject: More Dice Pyshicness Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:08:27 MST > Relating to ASL: > Playing this week, I took a sniper in a stack with a 9-2 and >four other units. I had a very bad feeling about the Random Selection >roll and sure enough, the leader took it right between the eyes. >Sometimes I get a bad feeling about an impending roll, and contrive >some way to alter the course of the future, such as changing dice, >taking a different shot or just escaping to the bathroom (I decided >not to do anything different for the above sniper attack.). I don't >believe you can play boardgames without being superstitious, and >suspect this kind of behavior isn't uncommon, but just how many people >are willing to own up to pulling this kind of mumbo jumbo? > rk Heck, one of our pet theories for years has been that dice know who their owners are and perform better for them. Since we've been wargaming and roleplaying for a long time, we have quite an accumulation of dice and it is not uncommon for people to swap dice out two or three times in the course of a game if they seem to be "cursed". And, of course, there was the Titan game where I called correctly 24 consecutive die rolls:-) JB ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 15:29:41 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - and a question! > > Hey, my kids will push the Pop-a-Matic down and wait 10 to 20 seconds before > > releasing! There's always a way to be annoying :-) :-) > > Cool! Now I've GOT to bring one or two (colored and white) to Winter > Offensive. Hit one with each hand, really hard. BONK! BONK! > CRASH! (All other players look over, with jealousy in their eyes, > as their tinkling dice in their little glasses suddenly feel as > inadequate as a Pz II facing a JS-3.) > > Off to the toy store, :-> ;-> :=> I feel like I'm contributing to the delinquency of a minor, but... Double Trouble has TWO, count'em, Pop-a-Matics. They come separate from the board (you're supposed to pull the stick'em off and stick it to the board). They're the same color dice, but that shouldn't be a problem, just put a moronic sign on one that says this is the colored die. Don "Who can't wait for his kids to stop playing Double Trouble and start playing ASL" Hancock. ----- From: lrg@cherry.cray.com (Lee Gordon) Subject: Re: More dice silliness Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 17:12:53 CST > From: peschko@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Edward Peschko) > > Well. I just did a small 'statistical' study on dice rolls (yes, i was bored) > with the following criteria (150 die rolls, two trials each, rounded cornered > dice). > > Set 1 'Wanting to roll well' > Ave: 6.54, 6.65. > > Set 2 'Wanting to roll average' > Ave: 6.92, 7.1. > > Set 3 'Wanting to roll bad' > Ave: 7.32, 7.43. Hmmm, I've been thinking a bit, and using Ed's data, I've come up with a simple dice rolling strategy. I noticed that the average for the three sets turned out to be 6.92 and 7.06. Assuming fair dice (ie, the average will be 7), then over time, if you continue to 'want to roll well', you will inevitably fail, and end up rolling average. What can we do about this? I propose the following. 1) For important rolls desire to 'roll well'. 2) For TC/MC with 10 Morale units, and shots of no great importance, etc, desire to 'roll average'. Now, we still have all of those bad rolls lurking. Using some recently discussed information, the solution is clear. 3) Take a HS with no SW, and have it fire into an unoccupied hex looking for HIP units. Desire to 'roll bad'. Repeat this once for every time you desired to 'roll well'. The law of averages is preserved (stating that luck can neither be created nor destroyed), and you should stomp all over your opponent. Brilliant, eh? :-) -Lee (who is also bored, although less bored than Ed) ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 18:37:28 EST Subject: Re: More Dice Psychicness In our little local band of ASL fanatics, we have an almost Pennsylvania-Dutch respect of the offhand remarks made by our fearless leader, Gradie Frederick. It goes like this: "...unless it's a 12...." and then he rolls. Omigosh, that puts the original hex or jinx on it. Or another one: "...it's over for me unless I roll eyes..." and then he rolls. ZAPPO! Ouch. It really works for some people. It doesn't work for me by the way. John ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 19:23:23 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Psychic Dice? Howdy kids, This "I control the dice with the power of my mind" stuff always makes me laugh. Skeptic, skeptic. But, if you believe it... Lee (who is also bored, but less bored than Ed) said: > 3) Take a HS with no SW, and have it fire into an unoccupied hex > looking for HIP units. Desire to 'roll bad'. Repeat this once > for every time you desired to 'roll well'. > The law of averages is preserved (stating that luck can neither be created > nor destroyed), and you should stomp all over your opponent. > Brilliant, eh? :-) No, no, no. That's a waste of a perfectly good HS. And what about when you get the Russians and can't have any HS's? Instead, you should either: 1. Try to set things on fire. "Fire! Fire! Fire!" -- pre-censored Beavis High rolls work great for that. 2. Play by email. Think "Twelve, twelve, twelve, my pretties, and I'll buy you a nice new chamois dice bag" whenever an enemy leader has to take a MC. Keep your promises, or they'll turn on you. I've always found it handy to threaten my dice. "Fail this MC, and it's into the Ziploc bag with the ugly brown ten-siders with the crayon coming out of the numbers." They don't seem to care, but then again I haven't been as scientific as Ed about it. Dave (Who is not bored, as he's going to the toy store.) ----- Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 94 18:20:00 -0640 m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) writes: > > > OK, got a ASL question (don't I always). > > > > > > A B > > > > > > C > > > > > > Say a shot crosses B and intersects the hexside between A > > > and C. B has a wreck (thank you Dave Van Kan) and an AFV. > > > A has an AFV, but is not in LOS of the target. C has > > > Orchard. I figured the hindrance was +2 for this mess. I assume by "intersects the hexside" you mean "runs along the hexside", i.e. the fire goes through the center dot of B and along the hexside between A & C. A hindrance of +2 looks good. Hex A = 1 AFV out of LOS = +0 Hex B = 1 AFV, 1 wreck = +1 [see below] Hex C = 1 orchard = +1 Total = +2 > > > Now, put a wreck in C (don't get excited Dave, there's not > > > really one there), and assume the AFV in A is in LOS of the > > > target. What's the hindrance? +2, +3, or +4? > > [ Matt answers ] > > > Then the hindrance should be +3. That's +2 for the 2 > > vehicles in B, and +1 for the orchard in C. Yes, I think > > the orchard does count, even along the hexside. If you put > > a wreck in C, I believe it increases the hindrance to +4 > > (assuming LOS to the wreck in C exists). > > I am almost certain the wreck/AFV is +1 per hex, regardless > of the number of wrecks/AFVs in the hex. This is because I > checked it recently because of another discussion here. D9.4 ``There is a +1 Hindrance DRM to a same-level LOS for firing _through_ ... a hex containing one or more wrecks/AFV.'' > Then, there is the question about how to interpret the rule > that says that the hindrance modifier can never exceed the > range. As I interpret this, two hexes of range can never > cause more than a +2 hindrance [except during spe- cial > circumstances like factory debris... Well, AFAIK wrecks > might even be an exception to this - time to check the > rulebook]. A6.7 ``LOS HINDRANCE: ... However, a Hindrance DRM can never exceed the range unless the excess is due to SMOKE or AFV/Wrecks.'' So, totalling: Hex A = 1 AFV, now in LOS = +1 Hex B = 1 AFV, 1 wreck = +1 Hex C = 1 orchard, 1 wreck = +2 Total = +4 R&R (Rant and Rave) Phase: In response to a recent (non-dental floss) thread about anomalies of the ASL system, I would point out the rules on AFV/wreck Hindrance. The AFV/wreck has to be in the LOS of the firer _and_ the target. I can make up a story of why it would not affect the fire if out of LOS of the firer (the wreck/AFV is a distraction, and when out of LOS it doesn't disturb the gunner), but why, pray tell, does it have to be in the LOS of the _target_? And then, if somehow the LOS clears to the target (e.g. SMOKE clears, building rubbles to level below the firer and target), and the target now sees the AFV/wreck, the AFV/wreck suddenly hinders fire. Another LOS anomaly is that damn thing with the vertex of a wall hexside. A vertex of a wall hexside blocks LOS (if the wall hexside is not part of the firer or target hexside) _except_ if the wall hexside is on the other side of an adjacent hex, and there is a wall hexside that runs along a hexspine of the target hexside [e.g. if the target hex is C1 in the diagram below, a wall on the B1/B2 hexside blocks LOS along the B1/C2 hexside _unless_ the B1/C2 hexside is a wall too. Demolish the B1/C2 wall and the LOS disappears! A B C D ___ ______ \ / \ \______/ \______ 1 / \ / ___/ \w_____/ \ w \ \wwwwwww \______ 2 / \ / ___/ \______/ \ / \ \______/ \______ So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 17:52:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Ulen Neal E Subject: Evil Dice, Bad Dice!! I don't care what anyone says about statistics and/or probability. I'm working on my Ph.D. and I've studied it, I know all about that crap! But, you see...MY DICE DON'T!!!!!! They're evil, sadistic cubes of high impact plastic...and they drive me crazy!!! They know all! They know how the game is going, they know what I'm thinking, they come up eyes when the roll means nothing, and boxcars when I ABSOLUTELY need it!!! Probability and statistics is just a game to the dice, and they play it to the hilt!!! And the things is...is that I have a pile of dice which I use when I play...if one set is being bad, I switch. But you see, when I set them down they tell the other dice!! They're ALL in on it!!! You can't win! YOU CAN'T!!!! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Oh...I have to go now, the nice men in the white suits are here. "Hey, did you guys bring that neeto jacket that buckles behind my back?" "Yes Mr. Ulen...NO! Don't...Don't throw those dice at us...Ouch!!!" BCNU! ***************************************************************************** * Neal E. Ulen (nealu@crow.csrv.uidaho.edu) * * * * Ninja.. * * You have no voice * a bike of any * * To be heard my son, * other name is * * No one can hear when you're * just a motorcycle. * * Screaming in Digital -Queensryche * * ***************************************************************************** ----- Date: Thu, 20 Jan 1994 19:44:15 -0800 (PST) From: "P. Gowdy" Subject: Re: More dice silliness I am stil trying to learn the game and have yet to play a scenario and so I have held back until now to enter a discussion. As a life-long game player (yes, my parents played board games, etc, while I was still in thw womb. and as we all know, the fetus is aware of what goes on outside) I know that there are only so many good rolls that wil ever be made despite what the statistitians say. So, go home and roll a lot of bad rolls. That way you only have good rolls remaining. pdg ----- From: duchon@clipper.ens.fr (Philippe Duchon) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:53:06 +0100 (MET) JR writes: > [As usual, good explanations about Hindrances, complete with rules quotes, deleted] > > R&R (Rant and Rave) Phase: > > In response to a recent (non-dental floss) thread about > anomalies of the ASL system, I would point out the rules on > AFV/wreck Hindrance. The AFV/wreck has to be in the LOS of > the firer _and_ the target. I can make up a story of why it > would not affect the fire if out of LOS of the firer (the > wreck/AFV is a distraction, and when out of LOS it doesn't > disturb the gunner), but why, pray tell, does it have to be > in the LOS of the _target_? And then, if somehow the LOS > clears to the target (e.g. SMOKE clears, building rubbles to > level below the firer and target), and the target now sees > the AFV/wreck, the AFV/wreck suddenly hinders fire. One reason could be that the AFV/Wreck has to be close enough to the actual LOF to hinder it. But I admit it's a bit lame; this rules does look strange now that you point it to me. > > Another LOS anomaly is that damn thing with the vertex of a > wall hexside. A vertex of a wall hexside blocks LOS (if > the wall hexside is not part of the firer or target > hexside) _except_ if the wall hexside is on the other side > of an adjacent hex, and there is a wall hexside that runs > along a hexspine of the target hexside [e.g. if the target > hex is C1 in the diagram below, a wall on the B1/B2 hexside > blocks LOS along the B1/C2 hexside _unless_ the B1/C2 > hexside is a wall too. Demolish the B1/C2 wall and the LOS > disappears! > > A B C D > ___ ______ > \ / \ > \______/ \______ > 1 / \ / > ___/ \w_____/ > \ w \ > \wwwwwww \______ > 2 / \ / > ___/ \______/ > \ / \ > \______/ \______ > Well, this one is easier. A single wall hexside can be thought as running "exactly" alont the hexside, as this is not that strange, but two continuous wall hexsides form a really strange angle in the Real World(tm), so I usually think of them as being actually a straight wall, running in the average direction, explaining why the vertex doesn't always block LOS. Even the zig-zag walls in the north of the RB map were probably straight, although they block much more LOS in the game than they should in a "perfect" simulation. And since you can't destroy a wall (can you ???), this makes some sense. Well, it does to me :) -- Philippe Duchon duchon@ens.ens.fr ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 09:18 EST From: sdennis@mail.msen.com (Steven M Dennis) Subject: a few questions A few related questions (related in the sense that I need to know all the answers to play KGP1 against Lance!) 1) Can you use a "pre" SET DC in KGP scenarios? What about the CG? The DC rules say ony by SSR, the RB rules allow you to buy them, has anyone seen anything related to KGP about them? Subquestion a) Assuming I can't pre-set one I have to set it during play, but in a night scenario would I have to reveal the DC to set it (since you don't have to reveal the SW until used or something like that). 2) The night rules say routing is 'not normal' at night but then it doesn't elaborate... did I miss something? How is it not normal? Is it considered normal if within NVR? Can you rout if you want to? Can you stray when you rout? Can anyone give me a summary? I had a third one but I can't remember it now... I'll try again later. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Dennis sdennis@msen.com Hail To The Victors!!!! It's soooo pretty!! WS WMCJ ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:08:43 EST From: brian@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Brian Youse) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - JR writes: > > > R&R (Rant and Rave) Phase: > > In response to a recent (non-dental floss) thread about > anomalies of the ASL system, I would point out the rules on > AFV/wreck Hindrance. The AFV/wreck has to be in the LOS of > the firer _and_ the target. I can make up a story of why it > would not affect the fire if out of LOS of the firer (the > wreck/AFV is a distraction, and when out of LOS it doesn't > disturb the gunner), but why, pray tell, does it have to be > in the LOS of the _target_? And then, if somehow the LOS Line of Sight, and therefore Line of Fire, is reciprocol. If the firer has LOS to the wreck/AFV hinderance, and the target does not, then that wreck/AFV hinderance is not in the line of fire, why should its hinderance apply? Speaking of weird LOS/hinderance anomalies, does an AFV on a bridge still an inherent terrain hinderance? (yes) Even if the line of fire does not cross the bridge/road portion of the hex? (yes). Pretty weird tank, what with all that armor hanging over the bridge. Brian ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 11:13 EDT From: Dan Sullivan Subject: Sniper Mechanics Hey everybody, I have a couple of questions about snipers that I hope you can help me out with. o When resolving sniper attacks, if the sniper is not on a hex with any attackable enemy units the nearest enemy unit is attacked. Now, is the sniper counter moved to that location or is the attacked resolved and the counter left where it is? o What happens if the relocation roll sends the sniper chit off the board? ------------------- Dan Sullivan djsullivan@bbn.com ----- From: jtisdel@spd.dsccc.com (J. Michael Tisdel) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 10:28:08 -0600 Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - > Included from Brian Youse > Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - > [..snip..] > > Speaking of weird LOS/hinderance anomalies, does an AFV on a > bridge still an inherent terrain hinderance? (yes) Even if the line > of fire does not cross the bridge/road portion of the hex? (yes). > > Pretty weird tank, what with all that armor hanging over the > bridge. Well, if you hit it with eyes from a Stalin tank, I could see that happening. 8) > > Brian > > Message Date: Jan 21, 10:08am -- jtisdel@spd.dsccc.com | J. Michael Tisdel | "An armed society is a jtisdel@aol.com | DSC Communications Corp | polite society." --------------------------+ 1000 Coit Rd, MS 120 | - R. A. Heinlein I speak for me, not DSC. | Plano, Tx 75075 | ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 11:56:37 -0500 (EST) From: John Appel Subject: Re: More survey info requested I'm not sure if my earlier message about Atlanticon got through, but I saw that John reffered to it in on of his messages regarding the survey. Atlanticon for 1994 is canceled. My source for this is the organizer, Bill Frye. A combination of high cost at the Baltimore Convetnion Center and a very low number of prospective event runners for this year forced Bill to either call it off or risk severe personal debt. Bill and the other folks behind Atlanticon hope to have some sort of event next year, but things are sketchy at this point. John John Appel jappel@access.digex.com ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:42:35 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Motion Wreck Continuing with the wreck/hindrance thread. Say a bunch of AFV go charging into the enemy and one of the lead AFV gets wrecked by the enemy. Does it become a hindrance immediately? If I wanted to shoot at a wreck again (possibly to flame it), would case J apply since it entered a new hex this turn. Don Hancock ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 10:04:28 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Sniper Mechanics Dan: [stuff deleted] > o When resolving sniper attacks, if the sniper is not on a hex with any > attackable enemy units the nearest enemy unit is attacked. Now, is the > sniper counter moved to that location or is the attacked resolved and > the counter left where it is? I always move it to the sniped location. > o What happens if the relocation roll sends the sniper chit off the board? Treat it like an errant SR/FFE; temporarily abutt a board (usually this isn't necessary because you should be able to figure out the closest target; this happens alot in Red Barricades). Share & Enjoy, Brent Pollock ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 18:16:23 GMT From: jr_tracy@il.us.swissbank.com (J. R. Tracy) Subject: Re: Motion Wreck Don asks... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Say a bunch of AFV go charging into the enemy and one of the lead AFV gets wrecked by the enemy. Does it become a hindrance immediately? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hmmm... moving in the open without a rulebook, I'd say "no"; my reasoning is that if you're about to move Infantry across open ground, you can't zip your armour over in the same MPh to provide hindrances to enemy DFF. There is a specific rule addressing this in section D, which I discovered to my dismay when I tried to just that as the French in For Honor Alone at AvalonCon. That was for vehicles, however, so maybe wrecks cease to be vehicles for the purpose of this rule. Take it easy, (the other) JR ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 13:38:19 -0500 (EST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: Motion Wreck In message Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:42:35 MST, hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) writes: > Say a bunch of AFV go charging into the enemy and one of the lead > AFV gets wrecked by the enemy. Does it become a hindrance > immediately? If I wanted to shoot at a wreck again (possibly to flame > it), would case J apply since it entered a new hex this turn. Yes. D9.4 mentions AFV/wreck when referencing the hinderance, including excluding the hinderance from those where Case J would be applicable. ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:07:37 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - > Speaking of weird LOS/hinderance anomalies, does an AFV on a >bridge still an inherent terrain hinderance? (yes) Even if the line >of fire does not cross the bridge/road portion of the hex? (yes). > > Pretty weird tank, what with all that armor hanging over the >bridge. > C'mon now guys, many of the effects of AFV in ASL are psychological in origin, i.e., we're not talking about bullets bouncing off the tank, we're talking about a gunner's nerves being affected when a fire-breathing monster is in view (or in his reluctance to hit one of his own tanks)... Uh-oh... I hope this doesn't start a thread... 8-) Patrick Jonke ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:17:22 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: Motion Wreck >Say a bunch of AFV go charging into the enemy and one of the lead >AFV gets wrecked by the enemy. Does it become a hindrance >immediately? If I wanted to shoot at a wreck again (possibly to flame >it), would case J apply since it entered a new hex this turn. > The answer to the second part is yes, and therefore the answer to the first part is no. D9.4 sez "There is a +1 Hindrance DRM...but it does not apply... if that AFV/wreck would be subject to To Hit Case J..." Unfortunately, Case J only mentions vehicles, but D9.4 strongly implies that Case J also applies to wrecks. Patrick ----- Subject: Evil Dice, Bad Dice!! From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 10:40:00 -0640 Ulen Neal E writes: > They're evil, sadistic cubes of high impact plastic...and > they drive me crazy!!! They know all! They know how the > game is going, they know what I'm thinking, they come up > eyes when the roll means nothing, and boxcars when I > ABSOLUTELY need it!!! I hope Neal will forgive me for choosing his post as typical of the recent dice fetish thread. I realize you are not being serious (ok, half-serious :-). I must admit that I occasionally switch dice when a pair seems "cold," but in general I don't spend much time worrying about it. Sometimes good things happen, sometimes bad. This does touch upon something I noticed about the flow of ASL games. I often look over a scenario and say that some unit or weapon is "essential," for instance the 10-3 leader or the OBA or the Air Support. That unit promply dies in a sniper attack (caused by a 2 FP +1 attack, no doubt) or draws two red cards or can't pass a sighting TC to a moving Maus in OG. Yet the scenario continues on, and I win. As an example, recently we played "Bitche Sailent." The Germans have one Sturmgeschutz, which fired once, malf'd its MA, broke it while trying to repair it, and decided to go home. This was the Germans' only AT Gun. Yet the Americans were not in good shape as the game entered the final turns (it was late; we quit). So my question is, is it common that you can lose your most valuable force, yet still win? Is this the way the game plays? Should I fight that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach as my armor goes up in flames or should I give up the game? So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 16:05:12 EST From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) Subject: More dice psychicness > I don't believe you can play boardgames without being superstitious, > and suspect this kind of behavior isn't uncommon, but just how many > people are willing to own up to pulling this kind of mumbo jumbo? Probably not many of the professional mathematicians or statisticians. I don't know how many of us there are on this list, but probably a few. "I don't believe you can play boardgames without being superstitious" seems like an extremely broad claim. I'm certainly not at all superstitious. That doesn't mean that I won't complain about my bad luck (or admit my good luck), but I don't seriously consider the possibility that whether I have a "feeling" about something affects whether it is going to happen. David desJardins ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 09:24:21 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: Sniper Mechanics > ... is the sniper counter moved to that location or is the attacked resolved >>and the counter left where it is? > This was obscured in the 89 errata, but then fixed (again) in the 92 errata. Do you have that new page? If not, A14.21 was reworded to say: A14.21 Alternate Target: If the present target hex contains neither an eligible target (14.22) nor the enemy Sniper Counter, the attacking Sniper counter is moved to, and will attack, the hex closest (in hexes)... etc. ^^^^^^^^ > o What happens if the relocation roll sends the sniper chit off the board? The other person was correct; simply use a temporary board to keep track of the Sniper counter. Patrick ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 13:54:45 -0800 (PST) From: "P. Gowdy" Subject: Superstitious Dice I have a friend who is convinced that if he warms his dice via a microwave oven (when the dice are positioned in the way he wants them to end up when rolled) then they will come up the way they were placed inthe oven. He does this for a role playing game. Maybe there is some molecular change or something (oh sure!). But the "effect" does not last long. Just thought I should add my 0.02 Pete ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 16:31:12 EST Subject: SURVEY COMING NOW Alert -- Alert -- Alert Don't hit that 'd' key in your mail reader. The ASL Readership Survey is coming in the next message coming from me. Alert -- Alert -- Alert John A. Foley grendel@sos.wh.att.com "Looing at survey data is like going to Telestrator Heaven!" ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Fri, 21 Jan 94 16:31:50 EST Subject: THIS IS THE SURVEY ------------------------------------------------------------- The ASL Readership Survey, 2nd Edition ------------------------------------------------------------- Instructions for filling out this survey: 1) Select your answers to the questions by EDITING OUT the answer lines that DO NOT represent your answer. For example, if you rated yourself as an 8-0 below, you would delete answers 1, 2, and 4 through 8. Don't worry about any line that doesn't have a "[" as the first character in the line-- my survey processor ignores all lines except the "answers." 2) Send me at grendel@sos.wh.att.com a message containing your answers to all the questions. 3) The Survey period will remain open for some three weeks from today. I will send some mail to the list concerning the status of the survey as the situation warrants it. I will be glad to resend clean copies of this survey to anyone who requests. 4) If you have trouble reaching me because of mail bounces, I would prefer that you NOT post your responses on the list (that would blow the surprise factor and clutter the list). Keep trying or send a HELP message to Brian Youse (don't DM me, Brian!). 5) If these instructions are NOT clear, write to me for clarification. 6) If you don't like the survey method or questions, try to be constructive in your flames 8-). Two-thirds of these questions come from the first edition of the survey. Thanks for your support and enthusiasm! Sincerely, John A. Foley grendel@sos.wh.att.com ------------------------------------------------------------- How much experience do you have?" ------------------------------------------------------------- [1] 6+1: IFT? Yeah, I know what that is! [2] 7-0: Buildings are +3, right, and halved for area fire? [3] 8-0: Perhaps I should Dash across that street. [4] 8-1: I`ll call in that OBA as WP. [5] 9-1: I`ll stay in motion and pop off the sD`s. [6] 9-2: A river crossing? In boats? With DD Shermans? No problem. [7] 10-2: Same as above, but I`ll use the Italians at night. [8] 10-3: I`ve won a Major ASL Tournament. How many games have you played? ------------------------------------------------------------- [9] A couple times [10] About 10 times [11] 11-25 times [12] 25-50 times [13] 51-100 times [14] 101-200 times [15] 201-300 times [16] More than 300 times How frequently do you play? ------------------------------------------------------------- [17] Less than once a month [18] Once a month [19] Every other week [20] Once a week [21] Fully addicted: play at least twice a week [22] Not a member of the human race: play every day What environment(s) do you play in? ------------------------------------------------------------- [23] Face to face [24] Play by mail [25] Play by email [26] Internet ladder [27] GEnie ladder [28] Solitaire [29] Tournament/convention What major ASL tournaments have you attended? ------------------------------------------------------------- [30] AvalonCon [31] AtlantiCon [32] ASL Rally Gothenburgh (Sweden) [33] ASL Oktoberfest [34] ASL Open [35] ASL World Championship (Internet) [36] Berserker I (Internet) [37] Conscript I (Internet) [38] GothCon (Sweden) [39] MichiCon [40] Prez-Con [41] Summer Wars [42] Winds of War [43] Winter Offensive [44] Winter Olympics [45] Other tournaments/conventions featuring ASL What *two* nationalities do you prefer to play? ------------------------------------------------------------- [46] American [47] British [48] Chinese [49] French [50] German [51] Italian [52] Japanese [53] Partisan [54] Russian [55] Allied Minor [56] Axis Minor [57] No preference What *one* theater do you prefer to play? ------------------------------------------------------------- [58] Eastern European [59] North African [60] Pacific [61] Western European [62] No preference What ASL modules do you own? ------------------------------------------------------------- [63] Beyond Valor [64] Paratrooper [65] Yanks [66] Partisan! [67] West of Alamein [68] The Last Hurrah [69] Hollow Legions [70] Code of Bushido [71] Gung Ho! [72] Croix de Guerre [73] Red Barricades [74] Kampfgruppe Peiper I [75] Streets of Fire [76] Hedgerow Hell What ASL periodicals do you own/subscribe to? ------------------------------------------------------------- [77] ASL Annual `89 [78] ASL Annual `90 [79] ASL Annual `91 [80] ASL Annual `92 [81] ASL Annual `93a [82] ASL Annual `93b [83] ASL News [84] ASL Union of Gamers Newsletter [85] At The Point [86] Fire for Effect [87] The GENERAL [88] On All Fronts [89] The Rout Report [90] Tactiques What ASL Bulletin Boards/Internet resources to you use? ------------------------------------------------------------- [91] Internet: ASL Digest [92] Internet: ASL Mailing List [93] Internet: SL Mailing List [94] Internet: Some other ASL resource [95] GEnie: ASL Board [96] Other Service/BBS What is your access to your email account? ------------------------------------------------------------- [97] Semester by semester only [98] Year-round What do you want to read in the Digest? Your *first* choice: ------------------------------------------------------------- [99] Game commentaries and scenario writeups [100] Dramatic fiction and enactments of game moments [101] Guides to poorly documented game procedures/processes [102] Chapter K treatment for the complex but unavoidable areas of the rules [103] Analytical articles on particular game systems and combined arms tactics [104] Series replays (from your PBeM records plus comments) [105] Historical observations from game experience and/or research [106] Reviews of books and other sources for scenario design [107] Scenarios and scenario ideas (tested or not) [108] Variants to scenarios and orders of battle [109] Optional rules (realistic and/or humorous) [110] Contest-like questions and puzzles What do you want to read in the Digest? Your *second* choice: ------------------------------------------------------------- [111] Game commentaries and scenario writeups [112] Dramatic fiction and enactments of game moments [113] Guides to poorly documented game procedures/processes [114] Chapter K treatment for the complex but unavoidable areas of the rules [115] Analytical articles on particular game systems and combined arms tactics [116] Series replays (from your PBeM records plus comments) [117] Historical observations from game experience and/or research [118] Reviews of books and other sources for scenario design [119] Scenarios and scenario ideas (tested or not) [120] Variants to scenarios and orders of battle [121] Optional rules (realistic and/or humorous) [122] Contest-like questions and puzzles What do you want to read in the Digest? Your *third* choice: ------------------------------------------------------------- [123] Game commentaries and scenario writeups [124] Dramatic fiction and enactments of game moments [125] Guides to poorly documented game procedures/processes [126] Chapter K treatment for the complex but unavoidable areas of the rules [127] Analytical articles on particular game systems and combined arms tactics [128] Series replays (from your PBeM records plus comments) [129] Historical observations from game experience and/or research [130] Reviews of books and other sources for scenario design [131] Scenarios and scenario ideas (tested or not) [132] Variants to scenarios and orders of battle [133] Optional rules (realistic and/or humorous) [134] Contest-like questions and puzzles When you read a Digest issue, which do you want more? ------------------------------------------------------------- [135] All articles focused on a single theme or topic [136] A mixed bag of whatever has been received [137] No preference Are you interested in the *Beyond Squad Leader* computer game? ------------------------------------------------------------- [138] I would buy it even if NOT based on the ASLRB. [139] I would buy it but ONLY if based on the ASLRB. [140] I would seriously consider buying it. [141] I probably would not buy it. [142] I definitely would not buy it. Are you interested in a Solitaire ASL product? ------------------------------------------------------------- [143] I would buy them without hesitation. [144] I would probably buy one or more of them. [145] I probably would not buy them; I would look them over. [146] I definitely would not buy any of them. Are you interested in the mini-HASL modules? ------------------------------------------------------------- [147] I would buy them without hesitation. [148] I would probably buy one or more of them. [149] I probably would not buy them; I would look them over. [150] I definitely would not buy any of them. Are you interested in a Spanish Civil War module? ------------------------------------------------------------- [151] It positively must be in ASL! [152] It looks interesting. [153] It looks like a force fit to me. [154] It does not belong in ASL at all. Are you interested in a Korean War module? ------------------------------------------------------------- [155] It positively must be in ASL! [156] It looks interesting. [157] It looks like a force fit to me. [158] It does not belong in ASL at all. Are you interested in Reprinted Scenarios Packs? ------------------------------------------------------------- [159] I would buy them without hesitation. [160] I would probably buy one or more of them. [161] I probably would not buy them; I would look them over. [162] I definitely would not buy any of them. If boards 1-9 and 12-15 were remade, what would you do? ------------------------------------------------------------- [163] I have them already and would not buy new ones. [164] I have them already but would buy some new ones. [165] I have them already and would buy all new ones. [166] I have some of them and would only buy ones I do not have. [167] I have some of them but would buy all new ones. Where do you stand on the Fire Table issue? ------------------------------------------------------------- [168] I use the IFT or we don't play. [169] I usually use the IFT, but might try the IIFT sometime. [170] I tend to use the IFT. [171] I tend to use the IIFT. [172] I usually use the IIFT, but might try the IFT sometime. [173] I use the IIFT or we don't play. What are your *favorite* ASL scenarios (list 5 or less)? Start each line with the string "[200]" following by the formal scenario name as found in the ASL Record. Examples: ------------------------------------------------------------- [200] 32 Subterranean Quarry [200] 73 Hell or High Water [200] A8 The Agony of Doom [200] G11 Pegasus Bridge [200] N Soldiers of Destruction Excluding ASL, what are your 5 favorite games (you define "game")? Start each line with the string "[300]" followed by text. Examples: ------------------------------------------------------------- [300] Chess [300] Hearts (cards) [300] Sherlock Holmes: Consulting Detective [300] Dictionary (word game) [300] Acquire ------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you very much for your time. Remember, please send an email message to me at grendel@sos.wh.att.com containing those lines that ARE the answers to the questions above. Lines that don't start with "[" will be ignored. ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 17:05:11 PST From: rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu Subject: Looking for a email game Hi everyone, I just got a copy of the 93b annual and saw that Chateau De Quesnoy had been translated into ASL. Anyone feel like playing the Germans? Rod Holmes | Maggots are falling like rain. rholmes@dhvx20.csudh.edu | -GWAR ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 17:17:35 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: AH toll free order number The number I read off of my latest copy is: 1-800-999-3222 Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock [stuff deleted] > Does anybody have the Hill's 1-800 number for catalog orders? [stuff deleted] ----- Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 21:28:27 -0500 From: Stewart R King Subject: Re: Evil Dice, Bad Dice!! > I hope Neal will forgive me for choosing his post as > typical of the recent dice fetish thread. I realize you are > not being serious (ok, half-serious :-). I must admit that I > occasionally switch dice when a pair seems "cold," but in > general I don't spend much time worrying about it. > Sometimes good things happen, sometimes bad. Thanks. Dice fetishists drive me nuts. I use dice cups or towers or pop-ups or what have you if my opponent wants, but dice are dice. If they're not balanced, then they're loaded dice. If the opponent knows they're not balanced and uses 'em anyway, he's violating a lot of unwritten rules. There are enough rolls in your standard game of ASL that dice are going to balance -- if not in one scenario, then over six or seven at a tournement (or all the plays in the Record). > > This does touch upon something I noticed about the flow of > ASL games. I often look over a scenario and say that some > unit or weapon is "essential," for instance the 10-3 leader > or the OBA or the Air Support. That unit promply dies in a > sniper attack (caused by a 2 FP +1 attack, no doubt) or > draws two red cards or can't pass a sighting TC to a moving > Maus in OG. Yet the scenario continues on, and I win. > > As an example, recently we played "Bitche Sailent." The > Germans have one Sturmgeschutz, which fired once, malf'd > its MA, broke it while trying to repair it, and decided to > go home. This was the Germans' only AT Gun. Yet the > Americans were not in good shape as the game entered the > final turns (it was late; we quit). > > So my question is, is it common that you can lose your most > valuable force, yet still win? Is this the way the ga[Bme > plays? Should I fight that sinking feeling in the pit of > my stomach as my armor goes up in flames or should I give > up the game? > Most ASL units are multi-capable. Luck balances out. If your tank gets blown up, then you'll roll a "2" on that HS CC attempt against the Motion enemy PzVG. Keep on fighting until you're really beaten. I had a scenario at Avaloncon "in the bag" against a really good player, and managed to get beaten in a squeaker on the last phase. Keep on punching, Stewart King ----- From: Gerald Luther Graef Subject: Evil Dice, Bad Dice!! Date: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 20:47:22 -0600 (CST) J.R. writes: > So my question is, is it common that you can lose your most > valuable force, yet still win? Is this the way the game > plays? Should I fight that sinking feeling in the pit of > my stomach as my armor goes up in flames or should I give > up the game? The real question is, if we have to make sacrifices to win, to whom are we making the sacrifies? and would it help if we light a candle and chant? Gerry ----- From: s.belcher@genie.geis.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 02:01:00 BST Subject: ASL Player Database A couple of days ago, I posted a notice of my intent to compile a database of ASL player's names, addresses, phone, etc. This is an update to that project. A couple of items: 1. I intended to include a fourth y/n question. For some reason, my post to the internet was not complete. See the complete form below, note the fourth y/n question. I have no intention at this time of "selling" or giving this mailing list out to a commercial concern, but I'm trying to cover all the bases in the event someone contacts me about use of the database to mail a catalog or direct mail solicitation directed at ASL players. If you have already sent me your name, address, etc through internet, then I have marked this field "no". If you want to change it, send me an update. 2. If you need to update your record (you moved, you changed your mind, whatever) please add the word UPDATE on the line above your name. 3. Thanks to all who have responded. I had 25 responses in the first 24 hours. Not bad. I'm looking forward to playing each and every one of you if I get out your way. (Although I am especially looking forward to playing the guy in Hawaii - and I can't say I want to travel to Ontario this time of year!) And by the way, this list is not limited to the USA or to North America I'll add anyone who wants to be included. To anyone who has not responded - call now! Our operators are standing by. 4. I'll add a 300 character comment field to your record if you want to include any special notes. Just type it in after your last y/n answer. 5. I'll upload the data in text format in a few days (once entries slow down). I am using an IBM compatible PC (as opposed to a MAC or "other" kind of computer). I can write the data out as a Lotus spreadsheet or a dBase2 file as well as several other formats. Is there any one format that would be particularly useful to you? Inquiring minds want to know. Again, a sample form appears below. You do not have to send the form, just include all the info in the order it appears below. Thanks. Remember, if you are updating your info, the first line should read UPDATE and please include all data you wish to appear in your record. An update will replace the previous record. Name: Sam Belcher Address: 4182 New Towne Drive Address: Powder Springs, GA 30073 Address: Phone: 404 439-6143 (home) Alternate Phone: 404 563-6263 (work) Internet/email address: s.belcher OR s.belcher@genie.geis.com * OK for me to contact you for FTF play?: (y/n) y ** OK to release your info to another player?: (y/n) y *** OK to use this info for non-profit mailings?: (y/n) y **** OK to use this info for commercial mailings?: (y/n) n Comments: I own all the modules, I just need to use them more. Feel free to add any comment you wish to have included in the database. I'll allow up to 300 characters - e.g. "AREA play only" or "I don't have the Japanese modules" etc. *** An example of a non-profit mailing would be club newsletters, ASL fan'zines, etc. (Admittedly, the distiction could get a little blurry here.) **** An example of a commercial concern would be a company which wanted to mail a catalog / solicitation to ASL gamers. Sam ----- From: r.mosher2@genie.geis.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 02:34:00 BST Subject: East Coast ASL -=-=-=- To: STEWARTSCOTT@ATTMAIL -=-=-=- Scott, Sub: East Coast ASL > Have you noticed how so much of the ASL community is on the East Coast > of the US? It seems that most tournaments are there, most of the > "power players" live there, etc. Am I imagining it, or is there a real > phenomenon going on? The old coast gets the most attention --its got the manufacturer of our mutual passion --so they git to go to the con's cheap back there. There be three tourneys per year in so. calif. and three in bay area --all associated with other large conventions at three "three day -Americvan holidays--also some in the "big Valley" --6+ torney's per year for one state ain't bad. > I used to live in California (Bay Area), and I had a hard time finding > ASL opponents, so I don't think population density has anything extra I lived in Bay area too for '68-'82 --no probelm with opponents --maybe you check deoderant :)). ron ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 00:22:29 EST Subject: QUICK NOTE ON SURVEY It would save me time if--when you edit the survey--you avoid adding spaces and/or tabs before the first "[" character of your answers. Thanks! It looks like a lot of fun!!! 8-) John Foley ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 00:57:54 EST Subject: More Notes On Survey Please pardon the quick flurry of notes I may need to post up on the list during the first hours or days of the survey. Brent Pollack had a question concerning whether or not to delete the intro to the survey. I tried to respond to him, but received an smtp failure message. The answer is that you don't have to delete the intro since my survey processor ignores all but the key lines; however, you'll save me disk space if you do delete unecessary lines. I've received two dozen answers so far, so this is very exciting. One area you'll delight in is seeing how very wide a range of gaming interests your colleagues have, and I mean W-I-D-E. { How Wide is it? } { It's so Wide that... 8-) } Okay. Back to another item of survey business. I want to reiterate that ANY reader whether they have normal internet access or GEnie access or CompuServe access or Bitnet access or whatever, ANY reader is eligible to fill out this survey. Thanks very much for your cooperation and enthusiasm! John Foley ----- From: p.cocke@genie.geis.com Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 06:49:00 BST Subject: D'oh Thanks for the re-transmit, Brian. Probably would have made slightly more sense if it had gone up Monday when I drafted it. The workings of the Net still mystify me. I guess YOU don't have to worry about copying header lines and other Netiquette niceties. And now, yet again, a host of miscellaneous comments: I think players should be clear before play starts which parts of Ch. E they will be using. In the absence of mutual agreement, I would say there is no Interrogation, Swimming, or Barrages. I, for one, have never played with Swimming and would like to think there are still from frontiers to be conquered. Road Bonus only applies in MPh (B3.4), not in RtPh. Scott rephrases the question previously asked by The Rout Report: Is the East Coast too powerful? We here in the Washington-Baltimore Statistical Metropolitan Area have never found this to be the case. David H. asks if Sangars are merely just a pile of rocks or if they are really treated as Entrenchments. To me, the answer seems clear: since Sangars are treated like Entrenchments, they must be more than just a pile of rocks. The nonpareil JR writes "But strictly following the rules, Ambush is possible." Presumably he is referring to Ambush in the upstairs Rubble of what is still, downstairs, a building hex. I would suggest that JR rephrase a different part of his answer from "This is probably an error, with "hex" being used for "location"" to read instead "This is certainly an error...." For that matter, can there be Ambush on a Rooftop? Not where I play, in any event. rc asks a very timely question about out-of-season orchards and slopes. The way B14.2 is written, slopes (not being a full level) have no effect on whether or not an Orchard causes a Hindrance. Do not base all your KGP strategy on this interpretation however. There is under consideration a possible change so that there would be no Hindrance if the LOS was from greater than one level higher than the base level of the orchard (as opposed to the current rule requiring the LOS to be at least two levels higher. All this discussion applies only to LOS that would be blocked if the orchard where in season. If you could see over an in-season orchard, you can see over an out-of-season orchard (which is why the rule needs to be corrected). WRT the Q&A Jean-Luc posted on B23.71, C1.51 and Patrik's discussion on the issue: I think the first part of the answer is wrong, in that a unit leaving an FFE hex is not attacked; I think that TAHGC will not "insist" on that interpretation either. I do think that if you >enter< a hex via Rowhouse Bypass, you would be attacked at the Open Ground vertex. Sometimes you might be better off not using Rowhouse Bypass; I can live with that. My thoughts on DRs (in pale imitation of Tom): 2: What can be worse than Surrendering after rolling a 2 on a MC? How about cowering off the IFT on that long-range 1 minus 2 shot, and then being unable to SFF as the enemy runs right up to you. To quote a certain Hawaiian's favorite Footnote (Hi Pat!): "...so wedded are they to the concept that a low DR is good." My favorite SAN, since I am least likely to forget my SAN when you give me the 'eyes. 3: Known affectionately as a "standard Murphy 3" in honor of Tom "I've never read the Rulebook" Murphy, the man with playtest credits for more AH games than anyone else never actually employed by TAHGC. Also, this is (so I am repeatedly informed) what I ALWAYS roll for those critical low-odds attacks (2 minus 1, etc.). How can you go wrong? 4: A hard 4 is my favorite roll for those leader-directed HMG shots. Only Immobilizes that moving King Tiger when lone squad Street Fights. 5: You must be able to Shock with a 5 in order to stop or stay in an enemy AFV's hex (D2.6) or in order to inflict an Immobilization TC (D5.5). My favorite To Hit roll for the American 60mm mortar; almost certain to maintain ROF. 6: I hate to see this as my opponents SAN. Usually much better than a dr of 6. Average this for the rest of your life and you should do pretty well. 7: Average = mediocre. Even in Hand-to-Hand CC this only gets you Casualties at 1 to 1 odds. 8: This is the highest you can roll and still maintain Conditional ROF (C2.5). Standard roll by my SS for any/all 1MC. Non-DM Americans self-Rally in good terrain. 9: Nein! Non-DM first-line Italians need good terrain and a 10-3 leader to Rally with this. With net zero DRMs, a PzKfwIII N will hit with Smoke at 12 hexes. Standard roll by my SS on NMC. 10: This will save an IS-2m's weak turret armor from even a King Tiger's 88LL. Pins that 10-3 leader on an NMC, so that the 747s will all break and rout away, causing the 10-3 to have to self-break to go with them, leaving the HMGs behind. Malfunctions even that 88LL during Intensive Fire. 11: Not a 12! Watch out for Boobytraps. What I always roll for those critical high-odds attacks (24 up 3, etc.). If the 8-1 and the Assault Engineer squad can get Ambush and an ATMM, the IS-2m is still toast! Even Sissi go Berserk on an 11 HOB DR. 12: True whiners keep a running tally of how many they have rolled in every game they play. Be sure to remind them that half were on PTCs. SigIBs still inflict 1MC with 12 on IFT effects! (Though if you got a hit with a SigIB, you are probably counting on Casualties, at least.) Too many and you could be sCARRED for life. ....Perry ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 11:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: DANIEL_T@delphi.com Subject: Obscure rule reference All, Here is an obscure rule that not many may know of. I found it the first time I read chapter D, but when I started playing and tried to call someone on it, I couldn't find the rule. Well, I tripped over it tonight so I thought I would post it, for no other reason than to help me remember it. D3.51, "Once any vehicular weapon fires, its other weapons may fire in that phase only from that same hex [EXC: OVR; and MA retaining a Multiple ROF may fire again from another hex if the previous shot(s) were Bounding First Fire]." Try hitting someone with that at your next tournament! I'm sure you will be loved by all. :) --Daniel T. ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 11:46 EST From: sdennis@mail.msen.com (Steven M Dennis) Subject: A night thing and a G thing :-) In a KGP scenario do you roll for Gyrostabilizers?? Usually Gs are used only upon agreement of the participants but what about a KGP scenario? A SR can be seen by the observer (only) regardless of NVR, but I still would have to do two draws for battery access unless illuminated because gunflashes etc. are considered concealed (and thus unknown) right? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Dennis sdennis@msen.com Hail To The Victors!!!! It's soooo pretty!! WS WMCJ ----- From: Mats Persson Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 18:03:01 +0100 Subject: Archive The set up and first turns of AGWAV are now archived in ftp.lysator.liu.se in directory "pub/asl" filename "AGWAV" I have also archived the survey. /Mats Persson ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 10:02:39 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: A night thing and a G thing :-) Steve: > In a KGP scenario do you roll for Gyrostabilizers?? Usually Gs are > used only upon agreement of the participants but what about a KGP > scenario? Check out the SSRs on the Chapter divider. You roll for Gs prior to Armor Leaders (assignment/DR?) and all Panzers have Sz (or something like that). > A SR can be seen by the observer (only) regardless of NVR, but I still > would have to do two draws for battery access unless illuminated > because gunflashes etc. are considered concealed (and thus unknown) > right? Sounds good to me but I am sans ASLRB at the moment. Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 13:21:20 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Night artillery, Gyrostabilizers in KGP, Pop-o-Matic Hola, Steve asks: > In a KGP scenario do you roll for Gyrostabilizers?? Usually Gs are > used only upon agreement of the participants but what about a KGP > scenario? Check out SSR KGP17 on your Chapter P divider. The US player always gets to roll for Gyrostabilizers in any KGP scenario or CG, before he decides where to place his armor leaders. > A SR can be seen by the observer (only) regardless of NVR, but I still > would have to do two draws for battery access unless illuminated > because gunflashes etc. are considered concealed (and thus unknown) > right? I don't think so. E1.33 says "An unconcealed unit beyond a viewing unit's NVR is never Known to that viewing unit unless the target can be treated as being within NVR as per 1.101." And E1.101 says that Gunflashes, Illuminated Locations, and moving vehicles are treated as in NVR even when they're not actually within the required number of hexes. So I think if you have a Gunflash to aim for, you don't need to make an extra chit draw. (Have I told you guys how much I despise night rules lately? How about the rule in the G-T CG that FORCES the Marines to make one attack at night, even though it's a bad idea. Grrr.) And, for those who care about such things: I managed to cut the Pop-o-Matic out of a copy of Trouble and squeeze red and white dice into it. Works great, though I've managed to wedge the dice up against the side once or twice. (Considering the usual rate at which I drop dice, usually way under or deep within a couch, that's a vast improvement.) Apparently there's a game called Headache that includes a Pop-o-Matic with two different dice inside; I'll get it if I see it and compare it's professional DR Pop-a-Matic with my have-scissors-will-destroy model. Thanks for all the helpful email from those who have kids too young for ASL, and who are thus experts on this kind of thing. (Personally, I think there's a market for prenatal subliminal Chapter K training to avoid this inconvenience.) Adios, Dave ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com ----- Subject: A FEW QUESTIONS From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 09:43:00 -0640 Howdy, sdennis@garnet.msen.com (Steven M Dennis) writes: > 2) The night rules say routing is 'not normal' at night but > then it doesn't elaborate... did I miss something? How is > it not normal? Is it considered normal if within NVR? Can > you rout if you want to? Can you stray when you rout? Can > anyone give me a summary? E1.54 ``ROUTING: A broken unit does not rout normally at night, nor is it eliminated for Failure to Rout. A broken Inherent Crew still uses all of its RtPh to rout out of its vehicle into the same hex as per D5.11. A unit is captured or Surrenders at night only by CC or Mopping Up (even if Disrupted). ... A broken unit may Low Crawl during the RtPh provided it does not move toward a Known enemy unit; it does not have to Low Crawl toward any particular terrain type.'' The elaboration is in this very paragraph. What is not in there is an explanation of how dramatically these few lines change Routing. I enclose a bit of an article on night rules I am writing, with the rest to follow Real Soon Now. It is not quite complete, for which I apologize. Excerpt from "Bring on the Night" by JR VanMechelen: At night, Failure to Rout does not eliminate a broken unit, nor does a broken unit surrender via Rout Phase method (even if disrupted)[E1.54]. Thus, a broken unit can remain in Open Ground in the LOS and normal range of a Known enemy unit. A broken unit can remain ADJACENT to a Known enemy unit; it can even remain in the same Location with a Known enemy unit. If a broken unit (under DM) wants to Rout, it still can but only using Low Crawl. Further, it is not required to Rout toward the nearest building/woods at night: it can Low Crawl in any direction. The only restriction is that it can't Rout toward a Known enemy unit. Illumination of a Location does not affect Rout into that Location. Because all Rout uses Low Crawl, there is no Interdiction at night. Example: a broken, disrupted unit is totally surrounded in an Illuminated Open Ground Location. Although it can't Rout, it is not eliminated nor does it surrender. Example: a broken unit is in 4T7 with one Good Order enemy unit ADJACENT in 4T6 and another in 4Y5. NVR is 4 hexes. The broken unit is not required to Rout, but if it wanted to, it could Rout to any hex except 4T6. It is not required to Rout to the ADJACENT woods in 4U8. It could even Rout to 4U7, which is still ADJACENT to the enemy in 4T6. It is also closer to the unit in 4Y5, but that unit is out of LOS because of the NVR. If the NVR had been 5 or if the unit in 4Y5 were Illuminated, the broken unit could not Rout to 4U7. Example: a berserk enemy unit charged a friendly unit and broke it with TPBF in the AFPh. The broken unit is not required to retreat, but would obviously be at a disadvantage in CC. Note that the broken unit would be required to attempt to withdraw from CC in the second CC phase because it would be in Melee [A? ?what about the first CC phase?] Example: a broken unit is in an Illuminated Location ADJACENT to a Good Order enemy unit in an unilluminated Location. The broken unit can Rout into the Good Order enemy unit's Location [!] because it has no LOS to unilluminated Locations and therefore the enemy unit is not known. END EXCERPT > How is it not normal? See above. > Is it considered normal if within NVR? No. > Can you rout if you want to? Yes, using Low Crawl. > Can you stray when you rout? No, Straying only applies to movement. > Can anyone give me a summary? See above. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 17:11:37 -0400 (EDT) From: LANCELEU@delphi.com Subject: Setup question Hi, I have a question here of my own. In the case when a side has forces starting offboard and about to enter in the first turn, when should the concealment counters be added on those stacks due to come in? Should they be added "before" the opponent gets to see the top counter or "after"? Rule A12.12 states specifically that the opponent may not look at the board before non-OB-designated counters are added only if the attacking side begins with no forces on board. But it doesn't state similarly to other situations. Any opinions? ------------ ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 14:56:58 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Setup question Before. Its the only fair way. > In the case when a side has forces starting offboard and about to enter in the > first turn, when should the concealment counters be added on those stacks due > to come in? Should they be added "before" the opponent gets to see the top > counter or "after"? Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 18:27:15 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Re: Setup question Hello, Lance asked: > In the case when a side has forces starting offboard and about to enter in > the first turn, when should the concealment counters be added on those > stacks due to come in? Should they be added "before" the opponent gets to > see the top counter or "after"? Before. > Rule A12.12 states specifically that the opponent may not look at the board > before non-OB-designated counters are added only if the attacking side begins > with no forces on board. But it doesn't state similarly to other situations. > Any opinions? It is just opinion, because the rule is not clear, as Lance noted. The only reason that the top counter in on-board setup is ever seen is that you're not sure if there's a unit within 16 hexes with LOS until after both sides have set up. With entering units, you're sure, as there's no LOS off-board. Granted, it seems you usually lose that concealment as soon as you enter, but that's life. (Let's not bring up the case where both sides set up on-board, but more than 16 hexes apart. The rules can't cover everything.) Dave "So enthralled with my Pop-o-Matic that I forgot how to spell 'its.'" ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 1994 14:32:36 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: Re: Setup question >In the case when a side has forces starting offboard and about to enter in the >first turn, when should the concealment counters be added on those stacks due >to come in? Should they be added "before" the opponent gets to see the top >counter or "after"? > A12.16 sez a stack may not be inspected if it is out of the LOS of all enemy ground units, and A2.51 sez that there is no LOS between onboard and offboard hexes, so the "?" are added before the opponent gets to see the top counter. Aloha, Patrick "Such people feel cheated, so wedded are they to the concept that a low DR is good." Jonke ----- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 08:37:29 +1030 From: bjm@rommel.apana.org.au (Brad McMahon) Subject: Re: LOS thread Hi y.leung (y.leung), on Jan 17 you wrote: > I think even the ASLRB endorses the use of thread for LOS check. Rule A6.1 > specifies its use. So, dental floss shouldn't be allowed. :) > Heyyyy, it does to! I never even thought of checking that. It does say "usually" though. But my partner who uses cotton thread hasn't complained when he plays at my place and I use floss. (couldn't find any cotton one day! Is it that obvious I don't have a better half??? :-) ) Brad -- Brad McMahon bjm@rommel.apana.org.au Phone: +61-8-332 63 95 (Home) +61-8-204 04 97 (Work) "I reject your reality, and choose to substitute my own" - The Dungeonmaster ----- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 08:46:39 +1030 From: bjm@rommel.apana.org.au (Brad McMahon) Subject: Re: More dice sillyness - and a question! Hi Don (Don Hancock x2712), on Jan 20 you wrote: > >From Dave > > (Pop-a-Matic is a system where a die is inside a little case with a > > transparent hemisphere above a flat bottom. You push down on the top, > > and the spring-loaded gizmo inside bounces the die around. Great for > > kids, 'cause they can't lose the die, and they can't shake the die > > for an hour before each roll. Yep, adults have the same problems, but > > the game companies haven't caught on yet.) > > Hey, my kids will push the Pop-a-Matic down and wait 10 to 20 seconds before > releasing! There's always a way to be annoying :-) :-) Just using a Pop-o-matic is enough to drive me to distraction. KER-POP KER-POP arrrrgggghhhh!!!!!! Must be one of the easiest ways to beat me is to use a POM (hey an acronym!), it is guaranteed to drive me to distraction and thus lose the game. THe other way is, my regular opponents say, is just to play me. I think I have lost close to 30 games straight recently, and only a few of those games could my game play have been faulted enough to say that is why I lost. Bloody dice....., and no, it doesn't matter whose dice I use... -- Brad McMahon bjm@rommel.apana.org.au Phone: +61-8-332 63 95 (Home) +61-8-204 04 97 (Work) "I reject your reality, and choose to substitute my own" - The Dungeonmaster ----- Date: Sat, 22 Jan 94 13:05:25 +1030 From: bjm@rommel.apana.org.au (Brad McMahon) Subject: Re: ASLRB updated? (fwd) On Jan 20, rudel wrote: |-------------------- text of forwarded message follows --------------------| On the same note, does anybody know when the Index will be updated? I thought ASL came to be primarily because the old SL-COI-COD-GI rulebooks had become so convoluted. Now we have rules for Russian AFVs in Chapter F (Desert)! Rudel |------------------------- end of forwarded message ------------------------| ----- Subject: Looking for a PBEM opponent Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 00:16:28 PST From: slin@cisco.com 6+1 looking for opponent. I have Beyond Valor and just picked up Yanks today. I'm not quite ready for anything with Vehicles, but I'm willing to take a shot with Ordnance. Or we can just have a spat between foot soldiers. "Take The Chance" looks interesting. I'm open to suggestions. Steve ----- Date: 23 Jan 94 22:10:50 EST From: Neal Durando <72762.1644@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Counter Bitmaps Hi guys, I'm using bitmap versions of the Postscript maps to hold set-ups for my PBEM games. I've seen the OBs on the Postscript scenarios, and I wonder if anyone scanned counter images? If I had a scanner, I would do the work myself, but I don't, so I can't, so I won't. But it would be a boon to not have to use my own artwork.... Can anyone help? Cheers, Neal Durando, 72762.1644@compuserve.com ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Sun, 23 Jan 94 23:27:33 EST Subject: Survey Update 8-) I have processed 43 surveys. There are some questions we all agree on practically speaking. There are other things we are ALL OVER THE MAP ON. I've heard Brian mention we may have some 200+ readers of this list. Only 20% have spoken so far. Don't hesisate! Join in!!! John "Haven't signed on with Fox Network yet" Foley grendel@sos.wh.att.com ----- Subject: RE: NIGHT OBA From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 00:22:00 -0640 Howdy, After many hours of staring at the rules, I think I have sorted this out: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) writes in response to Steve: > > A SR can be seen by the observer (only) regardless of NVR, > > but I still would have to do two draws for battery access > > unless illuminated because gunflashes etc. are considered > > concealed (and thus unknown) right? > > I don't think so. E1.33 says "An unconcealed unit beyond a > viewing unit's NVR is never Known to that viewing unit > unless the target can be treated as being within NVR as per > 1.101." And E1.101 says that Gunflashes, Illuminated > Locations, and moving vehicles are treated as in NVR even > when they're not actually within the required number of > hexes. So I think if you have a Gunflash to aim for, you > don't need to make an extra chit draw. E1.101 "BEYOND NVR: Any unit at > another unit's NVR is beyond the hex range of visibility and therefore out of the latter's LOS unless marked by a Gunflash (1.81). Illuminated Locations (1.9) / moving vehicles (1.14) can be treated as being within NVR even when they are beyond the NVR." E1.81 "BEYOND NVR: Fire at/observation of a Gunflash beyond the firer's NVR is treated as occuring vs a concealed target [EXC: if the target can be treated as being within NVR, as per 1.101]." As you can see, using E1.33 is unnecessary because E1.81 refers to E1.101 directly. This is good, because E1.33 mentions only unconcealed units. Now to E1.101: notice that there are two relevent sentences in the rule. The first discusses the existence of LOS; the second discusses whether the unit can be treated as being within the NVR even if it is beyond the current NVR. So while an LOS exists to a unit marked with a gunflash (per the first sentence), that unit is _not_ treated as being within NVR unless it is in an Illuminated Location or a moving vehicle (using the second sentence). This leads to the conclusion that the extra draw is necessary when the observer is calling in fire beyond his NVR unless there is an Illuminated Locations or there is a moving vehicle, even if the target is otherwise unconcealed or marked with a gunflash. Even if the unit marked with a gunflash is unconcealed, and so E1.33 is applicable, it is not considered Known in E1.33 via E1.101 unless it is in an Illuminated Location / a moving vehicle. Finally, the bug in rule E1.81: is fire at/observation of a really-concealed-unit in an Illuminated Location beyond NVR treated as fire vs a concealed unit? This sounds obviously true because the unit is, after all, really concealed. However, the unit is treated as being within NVR because of E1.101: it's in an Illuminated Location. This means that the exception of E1.81 is true, and thus fire at / observation of the unit should _not_ be treated as vs a concealed unit. This is an obvious bug in the rules, but there it is. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- From: jeffl65@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 01:56:26 EST Subject: Advanced Squad Leader Connection I have been a Squad Leader player in Ptd,OR for many years. Not many other players I know with enough time on their hands to play much and I would like to connect with more players. I found out about this connection from AOL. Can anyone give me some more info about ASL and playing by mail or modem? Also, I'm not experienced w/ Internet yet, so help with that would also be appreciated. Thanks. Jeffl65@aol.com ----- Date: Sun, 23 Jan 1994 23:19:34 -0700 (MST) From: N431532374@amuc.mtroyal.ab.ca (Grant Linneberg) Subject: lost messages I apologize for using precious bandwidth, but my internet host dumped all my messages this Sunday (Jan 23). It's a shame to lose all those ASLML messages, but I can get those form the archive. However, anyone who sent me mail this weekend (Saturday or Sunday), there's a good chance I didn't get it, so please resend (Carl, I got your move and am working on it :^) Thanks, Grant GEnie G.LINNEBERG INET grant.linneberg@amuc.mtroyal.ab.ca ----- From: Jean-Luc.Bechennec@lri.fr Subject: PBEM wanted Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:30:59 +0100 (MET) Hi folks, I have built a nice cabinet to store my PBEM games and i am now able to have 7 games running together without any remark from my wife about all these ASL boards that lie at the top of the cupboards at home. I am able to start a new email game with up to 3 boards and none of the following boards : 1, 2, 5, 7, 16, 19, KGP. Any taker? -- ========================================================================== Jean-Luc Bechennec / / Equipe Architecture des Ordinateurs et ( ( Conception des Circuits Integres \ \ LRI, bat 490 \ \ Tel 33 (1) 69-41-70-91 Universite Paris-Sud ) ) Fax 33 (1) 69-41-65-86 F-91405 ORSAY Cedex / / email jlb@lri.lri.fr ========================================================================== ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Re: D'oh Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:50:52 +0100 (MET) Hi, [ Perry writes... ] > I think players should be clear before play starts which parts of Ch. E they > will be using. In the absence of mutual agreement, I would say there is no > Interrogation, Swimming, or Barrages. I, for one, have never played with > Swimming and would like to think there are still from frontiers to be > conquered. The logical consequence of this would be that the different sections that are OBVIOUSLY meant to be "non-optional" are optional as well, like the example of berserks in daytime being lax. I can accept this if someone doesn't have chapter E, but I don't like it. The main problem, IMHO, is that the rules for interrogation and barrages are worded in a way that makes me think that the intention is that they *should* always be used. If someone would like to go swimming, sure add that too. *I* don't treat those rules as optional, but then there's that pesky statement in the beginning of chapter E that states they are. Which I think is there only because some players might not actually have chapter E. Drat. > WRT the Q&A Jean-Luc posted on B23.71, C1.51 and Patrik's discussion on the > issue: I think the first part of the answer is wrong, in that a unit leaving > an FFE hex is not attacked; I think that TAHGC will not "insist" on that > interpretation either. I do think that if you >enter< a hex via Rowhouse > Bypass, you would be attacked at the Open Ground vertex. Sometimes you might > be better off not using Rowhouse Bypass; I can live with that. I still stand by my original statement: by skipping rowhouse bp altogether, everything is _much_ simpler, and you lose nothing except unnecessary com- plexity. That's the point I was trying to make. Take it EZ! -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Re: NIGHT OBA Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 13:57:29 +0100 (MET) Hi, [ JR's summary (as usual excellent) deleted ] Wellll... Just one thought. If you're trying to drop OBA on units you cannot see, I think you have to have LOS to the *base level* of the hex you're trying to put the AR in. Hmmmm... *Do* you have LOS to the "Base level" of a hex you can see only because there is a gunflash there?? -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Sloppy dice Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:02:23 +0100 (MET) Hi, Just another comment because I have nothing better to do. For those really concerned about cheating, I would like to point one thing out about whether to reroll both or only one die when one is "sloppy". When we play, we usually don't use a cup or somesuch. Therefore, it often happen that we roll the dice sequentially. Then, if one die is rolled and lands flat, that result holds. No knocking that "6" off the table with a well-aimed second throw, no cancelling the DR with an "intentional" sloppy die... -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:43:25 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: PBEM wanted Jean-Luc Bechennec writes: > Hi folks, I have built a nice cabinet to store my PBEM games and i > am now able to have 7 games running together without any remark from > my wife about all these ASL boards that lie at the top of the > cupboards at home. Wow. Could you describe to us how you made it ? Bas. ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: New maps Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 14:49:49 +0100 (MET) Hi everyone, I have just uploaded some new map files to carlo. Among the files are: KGP Stoumont map (Marty Snow wrote the original, I fixed some errors) Gavutu-Tanambogo map Scenario files for all the scenarios from the 93B annual. I also found a bug in the script, but you'll have to wait until Eric releases the next version until you'll get that. Until then, scenario a56 will generate an error on one of the overlays. Enjoy! -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 09:20:42 EST From: "I'm not bad, just pushing the bounderies of good 24-Jan-1994 0818" Subject: Search from wire Folks, A question came up in a game this weekend. If a unit is on top of wire can they still search? Can't find it in the rules but since Search takes movement points it didn't seem like you should be able to. Since we couldn't find it we allowed it however... thanks, dale ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 08:45:41 -0600 From: Bryan Milligan Subject: PS maps Hey guys, Patrick wrote: I also found a bug in the script, but you'll have to wait until Eric releases the next version until you'll get that. Until then, scenario a56 will generate an error on one of the overlays. I'm running into an interesting problem (feature, lack of mental capacity?) with the Perl script for generating maps. It seems that my script doesn't want to assemble the trailer correctly; specifically, the "%%Pages: " line is always missing the first "%." This makes my previewer barf. Editting the file is not really a problem, just an annoyance. I've checked for special characters, even retyped the line in the script. So far no luck. Anyone else with this problem? Bryan P.S. Had a great time at the ASL Open. Met Mac. Touched "The Book." Played Russ Gifford in my third (ever) game. Generated heros out the wazoo (10 in three games). ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 15:43:16 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Bypass Patrik Manlig writes: > I still stand by my original statement: by skipping rowhouse bp > altogether, everything is _much_ simpler, and you lose nothing > except unnecessary com- plexity. That's the point I was trying to > make. In fact, I would have preferred it if bypass movement had not existed at all. I think it adds too many complications and hardly adds any realism. Sometimes it even decreases realism as cities just do not consist of detached houses as you see them on the BV boards. Bas. ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 08:00:17 PST From: jwhit@wbst845e.xerox.com (Jeff Whitmire) Subject: Farewell... I will be changing jobs and losing my internet access soon, so I wanted to send a note of thanks to all the people who have handed me my head on a platter in various PBeM games over the past couple of years. It has been educational, though painful at times. I hope to find a way to restore my internet access soon, and get back to the list, but I am not sure how long that will take. Jeff. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jeff Whitmire | To be sure of hitting the target, | | email : jwhit@wbst845e.xerox.com | shoot first and, whatever you hit, | | phone : (716) 422-5647 | call it the target. | | mail : 780 Salt Road 845-20C | | | Webster, NY 14580 | | -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- From: Jean-Luc.Bechennec@lri.fr Subject: PB(E)M storage Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 17:33:03 +0100 (MET) Bas de Bakker wrote: > Jean-Luc Bechennec writes: > > > > Hi folks, I have built a nice cabinet to store my PBEM games and i > > am now able to have 7 games running together without any remark from > > my wife about all these ASL boards that lie at the top of the > > cupboards at home. > > Wow. Could you describe to us how you made it ? > > Bas. > I am not good enough in english to explain how i made it but i can draw it. So, you can find a small compressed Postscript file called "Cabinet.ps.Z" in the incoming folder of carlo.phys.uva.nl (it will probably moved to the misc folder by Bas de Bakker) -- ========================================================================== Jean-Luc Bechennec / / Equipe Architecture des Ordinateurs et ( ( Conception des Circuits Integres \ \ LRI, bat 490 \ \ Tel 33 (1) 69-41-70-91 Universite Paris-Sud ) ) Fax 33 (1) 69-41-65-86 F-91405 ORSAY Cedex / / email jlb@lri.lri.fr ========================================================================== ----- Subject: Re: NIGHT OBA From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 10:18:00 -0640 m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) writes: [Problem of OBA on units marked with gunflashes at night beyond NVR: do the require a second draw? My answer was, 'in general yes.'] > Wellll... Just one thought. If you're trying to drop OBA on > units you cannot see, I think you have to have LOS to the > *base level* of the hex you're trying to put the AR in. > Hmmmm... *Do* you have LOS to the "Base level" of a hex you > can see only because there is a gunflash there?? You have an LOS to the Location of the Gunflash, I would assume. If that Location is already a "Base Level," you're done. Note however that OBA is usually a two-turn process, so while the observer might have an LOS to the gunflash in the first turn, in the second he might not, and so may be forced to correct or cancel the mission. This could be fixed by putting a starshell in the area. If the Location is not at Base Level, more thought has to be given. When you place the AR, you have to have an LOS to a non-Aerial Location, which would include the gunflash Location (C1.3). However, several of the SR & FFE Options speak of having "a LOS to the Base-Level ..., or to its Blast Height and any non-Aerial Location in/adjacent-to [the SR's/FFE's hex] that contains a Known (to him) enemy unit..." In these situations it looks like the action can't be taken if the only LOS is to a gunflash Location beyond NVR. However, the target hex could be brought into NVR by placing a starshell in the hex. All told, it looks like OBA vs a unit seen only by its gunflash and beyond NVR will have many constraints. Here's another "Nightmare": are amphibious vehicles, boats and LC subject to straying while in the water? Hmm. Looks like they are. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Subject: Search from wire From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 11:45:00 -0640 Dale writes: > A question came up in a game this weekend. If a unit is on > top of wire can they still search? Can't find it in the > rules but since Search takes movement points it didn't seem > like you should be able to. Since we couldn't find it we > allowed it however... A12.152 "SEARCHING: ... Good Order Infantry ... may attempt to reveal concealed enemy units ... in Accessible hexes ..." Index: "Accessible (an adjacent hex which an Infantry unit can advance into under normal APh conditions--even if it requires placement of a CX counter or is currently out of LOS)" A unit may not advance beneath a wire counter [B26.4] nor to adjacent hexes, so search is not allowed even in its own hex. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- From: kinney@isis.cgd.ucar.EDU (Rodney Kinney) Subject: Re: cabinet for storage Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 12:22:17 MST >Jean-Luc Bechennec writes: > >> Hi folks, I have built a nice cabinet to store my PBEM games and i >> am now able to have 7 games running together without any remark from >> my wife about all these ASL boards that lie at the top of the >> cupboards at home. > And Bas asks: >Wow. Could you describe to us how you made it ? Well, I'm not the PostScript master like Jean-Luc, but I am a native English speaker, so let me describe how I made mine. No tools required! Hardware/lumber stores sell sheets of particle board (1/8 to 1/4-inch thick), with 1/4-inch holes pre-drilled one inch apart. Since these act as kind of a perforation, it's possible, even without a saw, to break the sheet up into the shapes you need. You can use small L-brackets and nuts and bolts to put together the cabinet exterior without a drill, by using the pre-existing holes. I broke up some 1/4-inch dowels and stuck them horizontally through the holes in the walls for the shelves to rest on, one inch apart vertically. Put your boards on 8-inch wide pieces of particle board and slide them in and out (I actually have a thin piece of cardboard on top of the dowels for a smoother slide). Eight shelves hold two RB/KGP-size maps, assuming you're willing to cut them to the width of a normal Squad Leader board. Works like a dream! Campaign Games become a snap! No more rushing to reach the next Refit Phase! Cat-proof!! Order yours today!!! rk ----- Subject: 50 YEARS AFTER OVERLORD From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 13:47:00 -0640 Howdy, In a very few months it will be the 50th anniversary of D-Day, the landings in Europe. I think this would be an excellent time to see some Overlord scenarios. I wish I could say I was planning such a scenario, but I don't feel I am presently qualified for such an undertaking, much less able to devote the time to it. I hope someone else who can take on such a project will feel inspired to do it. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- From: paulsan@microsoft.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 16:50:10 TZ Subject: RE: 50 YEARS AFTER OVERLORD Weren't the Anzio landings just 50 years ago, also...... ---------- | From: Jonathan Vanmechelen | To: | Subject: 50 YEARS AFTER OVERLORD | Date: Monday, January 24, 1994 1:47PM | ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 20:40:23 -0500 (EST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: 50 YEARS AFTER OVERLORD In message Mon, 24 Jan 94 16:50:10 TZ, paulsan@microsoft.com writes: > Weren't the Anzio landings just 50 years ago, also...... Yup, 50 years ago January 22. ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 22:43:27 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: AGWAV Etiquette Hi guys, There's been a recent question in email about AGWAV etiquette and kibitzing, and it was mentioned that there's nothing about this in the FAQ. This was discussed way back when (check the archive sites if you like reading old discussions; check the FAQ to find the archive sites; check Don "My kids know way more about how to annoy people with a Pop-o-Matic than Dave could ever learn" Hancock (hancock@ono.geg.mot.com) if you need a copy of the FAQ...) but nobody really talked about it much when the current AGWAV started up. So here's some info on the subject in general. I'm posting it to the big list because there might be some people out there who aren't on the AGWAV list now but might be later. Maybe it's something that should be in the FAQ; maybe not. Of course, this is all just my opinion, except for the parts that I remembered wrong. Dave ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com What does AGWAV stand for? A Game With A View. This new acronym was suggested by [I forget; identify yourself or we'll have to check old archived stuff and see] in response to a mini-contest during the first proto-AGWAV, to prevent the two players from getting swelled heads from seeing their names in too many subject headers. How do I see the AGWAV? It's on a separate mailing list, asl-game@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send mail to Brian at asl-request@tpocc.gsfc. nasa.gov, and give him a couple of days to get around to it since he's a person, not a LISTSERV program. To post comments, send mail to the AGWAV list, rather than replying to the players. What's the point? First, you can see an email game in action. For those who've never done PBEM before, it's a nice example of how to do the little subtleties like concealment files and rules-error corrections. Also, it can be a good primer on armor or artillery or caves or something for new players, assuming that the friendly rules-hawks on the list keep pointing out blunders to the peanut gallery. (But not to the players.) More importantly, you can talk about people's moves behind their backs where they can't hear you. The players are prohibited from subscribing to the AGWAV list, so feel free to talk about how stupid their moves are. Show how much better you could have done. (Hindsight is your friend.) What about kibitzing? Among the audience, kibitzing is encouraged. Heck, it's required, as it's pretty boring to read a bunch of moves without some context. Make some noise. If you don't think you know enough about what's going on to make comments, then ask questions of the other viewers. The players are also welcome to send comments to the list, to try to explain their strategy and justify their mistakes. (It's probably a bad idea to whine too much about dice rolls...) But don't talk to the players too specifically about their strategy. It wouldn't be fair, unless AGWAV were set up for teams. Don't even correct rules mistakes where the players can see, as that's their job. Most email games contain errors, and AGWAV will be no different. But if something catastrophic happens, like the players' boards going out of sync without them noticing, you might want to make an exception. Use your judgment, or ask the rest of the audience for opinions before you tell the players something. What if I come in halfway through a scenario? First, check the ASL archive sites. They might have the moves there for you to download. If they don't, then ask somebody on the AGWAV list who posts a lot, or one of the players. Asking the whole list is the last resort, as you may end up getting twenty copies of the moves, or zero copies ("Somebody else will do it...") instead of one. The players should try to summarize their positions often enough to make setting up in the middle pretty easy. ----- From: Doug Gibson Subject: Broken leaders & MC Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 19:50:50 PST This has recently come up in a game, and the rules are less than clear on the subject: what happens to a leader who fails an MC? A10.2 seems to imply that a broken leader who fails an MC dies, but A10.3 says that a unit failing an MC is Casualty Reduced (resulting in a wound). What's the deal? Thanks in advance, -- -Doug Gibson dag@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 21:03:54 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Broken leaders & MC Doug: I'd never noticed this (one of the better reasons to keep track of the BB). It looks redundant/contradictory but go by A10.3 (check out THE NUMBERING SYSTEM on page ii of the INTRO; higher alphanumeric rules...well...rule). Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock > This has recently come up in a game, and the rules are less than clear on the > subject: what happens to a leader who fails an MC? A10.2 seems to imply that > a broken leader who fails an MC dies, but A10.3 says that a unit failing an MC > is Casualty Reduced (resulting in a wound). ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 23:21:59 CST From: Andrew McCulloh Subject: Broken leaders The wound answer is correct - A10.3 says it all - but A10.2 is _very_ misleading Andrew ----- Date: Mon, 24 Jan 1994 21:29:03 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: 50 YEARS AFTER OVERLORD JR: There have been a couple posted recently that I'm aware of. One is DEJA VU?, my attempt to portray the Canadian landing at Mike Red beach and the other is LAYING DOWN THE GAUNTLET, which is Shawn Kenny's depiction of action undertaken by the Canadian Paras. The latter appeared in the latest Internet Digest. I have also seen one on the GEnie network covering one of the American beaches, I believe it was part of the Omaha landings. The scenario is called STUTZPUNKT VIERVILLE (sp?) and I can upload it and/or give you the author's name, if people so desire it. Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock [stuff deleted] > In a very few months it will be the 50th anniversary of > D-Day, the landings in Europe. I think this would be an > excellent time to see some Overlord scenarios. I wish I > could say I was planning such a scenario, but I don't feel > I am presently qualified for such an undertaking, much less > able to devote the time to it. I hope someone else who can > take on such a project will feel inspired to do it. [stuff deleted] ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 08:40:54 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: PS maps Bryan Milligan writes: > I'm running into an interesting problem (feature, lack of > mental capacity?) with the Perl script for generating maps. It > seems that my script doesn't want to assemble the trailer correctly; > specifically, the "%%Pages: " line is always missing the first "%." > This makes my previewer barf. Editting the file is not really a > problem, just an annoyance. I've checked for special characters, > even retyped the line in the script. So far no luck. Anyone else > with this problem? Obvious bug in the script. Note that in printf (contrary to plain print), % denotes the start of an escape sequence and to get a % in the output, you have to type %%. This means there should be four %s in the printf statement in question. I vaguely remember having fixed this some time, but apparently it has crept in again. Bas. ----- From: abillsasl@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Jan 94 23:30:58 EST Subject: RE: NIGHT OBA After reading about the hole in the night rules and reading JRs response, I think I found a hole in his logic. JR says: >Finally, the bug in rule E1.81: is fire at/observation of a >really-concealed-unit in an Illuminated Location beyond NVR >treated as fire vs a concealed unit? This sounds obviously >true because the unit is, after all, really concealed. >However, the unit is treated as being within NVR because of >E1.101: it's in an Illuminated Location. This means that >the exception of E1.81 is true, and thus fire at / >observation of the unit should _not_ be treated as vs a >concealed unit. This is an obvious bug in the rules, but >there it is. rule E1.81 deals with "Gunflashes" not "Units". If a unit can be treated as within NVR as per E1.101 then if it fires (which would create a gunflash) it loses concealment.(assuming someone has LOS to it). Therefore, you wouldn't care about E1.81 because you have LOS to a known enemy unit within NVR (as per E1.101). Hole closed? Alan ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:31:53 GMT From: jr_tracy@il.us.swissbank.com (J. R. Tracy) Subject: AFV Survey Folks: I tried this from my cranky mailer at home, and it didn't seem to reach the list; apologies if some of you are seeing this for a second time: Since surveys are the rage, I'd like to poll the list for AFV preferences. If you get a chance, please send me your most- and least-favorite ASL AFVs, plus a few sentences of justification. I will compile the results and fire them off to Brian for the Digest if they prove interesting. Looking forward to your responses; take it easy, (the other) JR jrtracy@il.us.swissbank.com ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 08:06:00 -0500 From: Chuck Powers Subject: KGP: Objective Hexes I asked this question once before, when KGP came out, and got no response then. Now that folks have been KGP for awhile, I will ask it again. What is the purpose ob Objective Hexes? And what is the best way to use them? I'm guessing you use them to help your side in defining its Setup Area. For example, on day one it looks like the Germans will roll through the Americans, so the US could use Objective Hexes to hold on to some area of the mapboard for on-board set-up next scenario. I start my first KGP CG tommorrow, so any help/opinions would be appreciated. Chuck ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 08:43:58 -0500 From: Chuck Powers Subject: World Cup Well, the first round of the World Cup is slowly coming to an end. Thus far, Team Australia has defeated Team USA2, Team Canada has defeated Team Austria, and Team Sweden has defeated Team Europe. The only match left to be decided is Team France vs. Team USA1. I haven't received any results from this match yet. 'til next time. Chuck ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 07:57:19 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Re: AGWAV Etiquette FYI, I updated the FAQ with Dave's recent spewings on AGWAV. And, as always, anybody who wants one, just ask. Most who've even looked like they needed one I've sent one, but if I've missed you speak up. Don Hancock ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 09:17:35 From: tqr@inel.gov (Tom Repetti) Subject: Armored Assault and MOL rules Two things: Thing 1 - The new MOL rules (no MOL in SFF/FPF) from the 93a Annual seemingly make it impossible for the Yugoslavians to win in The Professionals. Anybody won this one with the Yugos using the new MOL rules? It's a shame; looks like a neat scenario. Any other scenarios have their balance hurt by the new MOL rules? Thing 2 - The Armored Assault rules seem to have been written to keep tanks moving as slowly as the infantry, which makes sense. But what if the tank/infantry group moves into terrain where the _infantry_ is faster, like moving uphill? The armored assault tactic goes into the scrap heap because the tank spends too many MP scaling the hill. While in reality, most tanks are fast enough to keep up with the infantry, even while moving uphill. Typical tanks (~15 MP) can move up three hill levels from a motion start, while infantry can do the same with 6 MF, using a leader or CX. The rule needs a fix, somehow. Tom ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 10:54:07 EST From: brian@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Brian Youse) Subject: World Cup Chuck, I can't email you right now, something wrong with gsfc.nasa.gov on your end, I guess. Philippe and I are starting turn 3 in the world cup, after getting to turn 3 in our first game and realizing our major goof. I'll certainly try to pick up the pace, as I don't want to be the reason the cup is at a snails pace! 8) Brian ----- Subject: RE: NIGHT OBA From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 10:40:00 -0640 abillsasl@aol.com writes: >JR says: >>Finally, the bug in rule E1.81: is fire at/observation of a >>really-concealed-unit in an Illuminated Location beyond NVR >>treated as fire vs a concealed unit? This sounds obviously >>true because the unit is, after all, really concealed. >>However, the unit is treated as being within NVR because of >>E1.101: it's in an Illuminated Location. This means that >>the exception of E1.81 is true, and thus fire at / >>observation of the unit should _not_ be treated as vs a >>concealed unit. This is an obvious bug in the rules, but >>there it is. >rule E1.81 deals with "Gunflashes" not "Units". If a unit can >be treated as within NVR as per E1.101 then if it fires (which >would create a gunflash) it loses concealment.(assuming someone >has LOS to it). Therefore, you wouldn't care about E1.81 because >you have LOS to a known enemy unit within NVR (as per E1.101). A good try, but night is a strange time and strange things can happen. Consider a unit firing in the PFPh from beyond NVR (e.g. at an Illuminated Location or at a non-GO unit). It does not lose concealment at night (E1.8 clarification) unless it was in an Illuminated Location (which would not be common because Starshells & IRs are removed at the end of each Player Turn). It might then come under Illumination during the MPh. Result: a concealed unit under a Gunflash in an Illuminated Location, hence not treated as concealed per E1.81. At the time I wrote my "bug report" my head was swimming with night rules, I was under the impression that _all_ concealed units would be treated as unconcealed in Illuminated Locations. Since then I have realized that only those under a Gunflash would be so treated, and so I have downgraded this from a full bug to an oddity which might be correct. BTW, a word to infrequent posters: if you receive a "bounce", check it carefully before reposting. Bounces typically come from the machine of a subscriber, not from tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov. These bounces mean that one user has not received your message, but everybody else in general has gotten it. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 12:25:11 EST From: "Matthew E. Brown" Subject: Top 10+1 ASL Insults (Net version) Recent events have mandated an update to the Top 10+1 ASL Insults posted by Tom Repetti back in October 93. The new addition, Number 11 with a bullet: 11. You deserve a FAQ today. Love, Don Hancock. Matt Brown PS. I saw Don Hancock do that once. PPS. Obligatory Pseudo-Pertinent Information. Sitrep #1 Update: I currently have 10 players and 1 judge signed up. We have revised (significantly but not drastically) the Sitrep #1 originally posted to the list. After final comments from the current players, I will post the revised version and give folks a final chance to sign up for the "first round." 10 players is plenty, but I think we can fit a few more, especially (hint, hint) if I can get one or two more judges. ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:35:12 CST From: mbs@zycor.lgc.com Subject: ASL Open Guys, How about some after action reports on the ASL Open, from those of you who went? Matt (stayed away at the last minute) Shostak ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 10:09:57 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: KGP: Objective Hexes Chuck: It seems to me that you pretty much have the idea. You use them to cite your objectives: those areas you deem important enough to commit troops to in order to control them. Whereas Red Barricades functions off of Buildings/Rubble/Entrenchments as Objectives, KGP allows you to work more along the lines of firebases/observation posts/choke points (e.g. road junctions), in addition to the Buildings. Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock [stuff deleted] > What is the purpose ob Objective Hexes? And what is the best way to use them? > I'm guessing you use them to help your side in defining its Setup Area. For > example, on day one it looks like the Germans will roll through the Americans, > so the US could use Objective Hexes to hold on to some area of the mapboard for > on-board set-up next scenario. [stuff deleted] ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Re: KGP: Objective Hexes Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 19:17:38 +0100 (MET) Hi, > I asked this question once before, when KGP came out, and got no response then. > Now that folks have been KGP for awhile, I will ask it again. > > What is the purpose ob Objective Hexes? And what is the best way to use them? The purpose of objective hexes is of course to allow you to "manage" the frontline/perimeter. Uses: Link two setup areas so you don't have to shift units between them. Place them to form a jumpoff area for further attacks. Push the frontline forward in open areas. Cut off the enemy to have him become isolated (check the rules for doing this!). > I'm guessing you use them to help your side in defining its Setup Area. For > example, on day one it looks like the Germans will roll through the Americans, > so the US could use Objective Hexes to hold on to some area of the mapboard for > on-board set-up next scenario. Yup, though I don't think the Americans really WANT to be onboard if it is 19PM... If it is a night scenario I can understand it, but no way I'd stay onboard on 19PM if I can help it. -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 12:25:05 CST From: efcm@tecnet1.jcte.jcs.mil Subject: KGP CGI via e Email Just as a casual note, I thought some might be interested that I (and obviously one other) have undertaken the task of playing the CGI game of KGP through email. I believe that I speak for both of us, that it has turned out to be working nicely. We are coming up to our third turn. With the Xmas season and a couple of business trips on my part factored in, it appears that we are running a complete turn every two weeks. The workload involved by playing through email is obviously larger than normal. However, it is not prohibitively so. I'll take a stab and say that it is 2 to 3 times the work that a normal scenario via email takes, but I can guarantee you that I am getting 5 times the enjoyment from it. It is by far the most thrilling ASL experience I've had even when you factor in that I'm playing the American, and it appears that I will fair no better than the other American examples of KGP). I really harbor no illusions that we will ever complete the entire campaign, but the work towards that goal will provide him and I many hours of enjoyment. Just thought some of you might be interested. Thanks for your time. Erik ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 15:15:35 EST From: brad.andrews@cas.org (Brad Andrews) Subject: KGP? I know this is probably a stupid question. But as a lurker, I have no idea what KGP means. Could someone please enlighten me? (There may be others on the list who don't know as well.) If it is because I haven't read the rules enough, I am guilty. I have the rules and a few expansions, but haven't done anything with them for some time, except getting trounced in a face-to-face game about two years ago. Brad ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 15:46:59 -0600 (CST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: ASL Open In message Tue, 25 Jan 94 11:35:12 CST, mbs@zycor.lgc.com writes: > How about some after action reports on the ASL Open, from those of > you who went? Not an after-action report (I didn't even go) but from what I read on GEnie, Bill Conner (aka Fish) won over Mike Mcgrath in the finals. Rob Wolkey played Guy Chaney for 3rd place, don't know the result of that. Have to finish reading my GEnie stuff this evening. *-=Carl=-* ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: KGP 20PM report Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 21:59:46 +0100 (MET) Hi, Last saturday we managed to complete another date of the KGP CG I we're playing. The end of the 19th had been a phyrric victory for the German forces, and I was rather pissed about it. Several tanks, most notably my remaining Wirbelwind, had been lost due to sheer ignorance :-( When my opponent announced that he was going to spend the morning of the 20th building up, I expected a nasty offensive in the afternoon. Actually, he had less troops than I imagined, even if it was plenty. I prepared the defense carefully, and having a disaster with an american bombardment during the night, I took great pain to avoid losing anything important from another bombardment. During the night, I had lost one Panther and another was immobilized by the bombardment. Now, I had set up a Pz VI B, a captured 57mm gun, a 75mm infantry gun, my 9-2 with three squads and 26FP of MGs, a 338 w/FT and the 150+ OBA observer hugging the frontline around DD5. On the other flank a 75mm AT gun, a Pz IV H, 120mm OBA and a 81mm MTR were supposed to delay anyone entering from there until reinforcements could be brought up. Two road- blocks cut the N.33 and another blocked one of the roads through the woods. At first everything worked like a charm. The TWO bombardments only claimed an infantry gun and a single leader. Then, troops started to slowly make their way through the woods in the west, carefully avoiding the big surprise there. On the northern flank four assault guns and several light tanks charged madly at the lone Pz IV that was the only unit it sight. Sneaking behind them towards RR24 were three HMG half- tracks. I had split my troops in two, and gave the command over the northern flank to a friend of mine. Therefore I saw very little action myself. My observer called in a 155mm SR, and that convinced the GI's in the woods that it would be safest to stay out of sight. In the north, however, a furious firefight evolved. KK17 was an american objective hex that was taken during the night, and there were still troops there. Those proved to be the only effective units since the tanks assaulting from the north served only as targets. Despite trying hard, after a while there were four burning stuarts and two wrecked Sherman/105, while we hadn't even lost the "sacrifice" Pz IV put there to draw attention. A Panther had come to reinforce the germans, and the german 9-2 in his brand-new Pz VI B was on his way also, when... During the night one of the SPW drivers had obviously felt he didn't have enough gas, so he'd "lent" some from the mighty King Tiger! A giggling was heard from the platoon of PanzerGrenadiers as the Pz VI refused to move. The german commander cursed as he climbed out of the mighty tank, and he started to move towards the front by foot. He vowed that he would put a few shells in those halftracks if he got the chance as he headed for the Panther defending N.33. Eventually, the american reinforcements crept forward, and they started to outflank the defender in the woods. Shifting them over some hexes and moving a IV to provide support shouldn't be a big deal, right? Wrong! When the 9-2 and his platoon headed for the sneaky americans, he was greeted by the rattle of .30 machineguns. The platoon thought it best to withdraw for a while, and he reluctantly followed them as they took cover in the woods. After some hasty plans were made (and the americans forced from the woods by a 50mm mortar, they headed off to encircle the americans. Just a quick dash across one hex, and they would be under cover and within minimum range on the american 60mm mortar covering the americans' back... Just a quick dash... That was the last thought of the guy, for as he moved into the hex, his head was blown off by a 60mm grenade. His troops once again thought it best to withdraw for the moment. In the north, the american infantry had by now crept through the woods and started to attack the defenders from the east. As the german Tiger commander assumed command over the Panther and headed off to the east to see if he could find any halftracks (he knew he would find americans there) he forgot about a few GI's toting a Bazooka. As he veered down on the N.33 a HEAT grenade hit the back of the tank... The war was over for that poor guy as well. The last thing that was heard was a promise that he'd be there to greet a certain SPW driver when he went to hell. Slowly, the tide was turning. American infantry steadily crept forward, and the counterattacks were disastrous because of bad luck or because of tactical errors. And the day never seemed to end. Now, even the american HMG platoon dared to creep to the edge of the woods in GG4. As the last light of day slowly disappeared, the german OBA finally kicked in. In the east, the german 6+1 had at last recovered from the shock of actually being fired at and crept to the edge of the woods. There he saw some GI's busy trying to clear the roadblock put across the N.33. "Some 120mm grenades will probably do the job just fine" he thought before he contacted the battallion's mortar battery. He asked for fire at the roadblock, and soon enough 120mm grenades were dropping from the sky. After the second salvo, he could see smoke rising to the sky from behind the roadblock. The american armoured HMG platoon had been annihilated by the fire! The american HMG platoon in the west fared only a little better. Being on foot, they quickly dropped their heavy stuff when they heard the in- coming 155mm grenades, and they got away with no casualties by leaving all their MGs behind. When the dust settled, the Pz VI started its engine with a two american TDs as its target. What could a 76mm shell do to it? Reaching the woods where the TDs were, one of the tracks was blown off by one of those dinky 76mm shells. Rats! Well, at least the american crew didn't have time to celebrate... An 88mm shell quickly turned their vehicle into a heap of scrap metal. But now, the Pz VI was caught where it was, with an american Bazooka team coming up behind them. The Tiger had to be left where it was, and it couldn't stop the american infantry from charging the only remaining troops defending the road - a lone HS manning a HMG. But wait! What about the artillery? Yup. As a desperate measure the wounded officer handling the radio gave his own coordinates to the 155mm guns before he turned his attention to the charging americans. Shortly, the american charge was stopped cold just in front of the last defenders by the 155mm artillery once again speaking. The pesky 90mm TD that had escaped twice was also caught in the shelling, and when the dust once again settled it stood there motionless, with several dead bodies scattered armound it. Even as the defenders madly counterattacked to clear out the last foothold that had been gained by the american charge the night fell. The day was at it's end. The americans had gained little ground. Most significantly they had gained four locations of the St. Eduard Sanatorium during a last-turn dash. In the west they had reached their projected objective in R9-U11 and in the north they got as far as QQ29-RR23, with some americans isolated around the 75mm AT gun that had covered the approach along N.33. Also, there were an unknown number of americans in the woods nortwest of the Sanatorium. Seeing that the americans now have only 25 squads, with one more infantry platoon to buy, things might not look so bad after all. Of course, I have only ten squads left, but lots of halftracks can provide additional fire- power. Also, I still have three platoons of infantry and three platoons of PanzerGrenadiers left to buy. I am afraid I won't have CPP to buy them all, though. As far as armour goes, I have only one Pz VI B left, but the only opposing armour is a stuart and a 105mm Sherman. The Pz VI B with the help of two AT guns should be able to handle them and more. I will buy two more platoons of infantry during the night, and a section of Panthers. Counting LVP, the americans currently only have 34 LVP. That means that he has to gain 32 LVP each of the remaining three dates to win. Assuming I can hold the Chapelle St. Anne and the level-2 building west of the Chapel, there are only 35 LVP left to take. If I can deprieve him of just 7 of those LVP, he'll have to go for the sudden-death VC. 7 LVP... That is equivalent to holding the Church during the night... Now, being a little bit more ambitious, let's see if we can do more than that. There are 52 LVP on the map. 52*3=156. That means I have to deprieve him of a total of 61 LVP to assure a win. I presume he won't be heading for the Chapel during the night, so the 19 LVP in that area is safe. Re- mains 42 LVP. Since I'm setting up both reserve platoons to cover the Church and the Chapel in Stoumont, I gain another 7-9 LVP. The night will see an attack to retake the Sanatorium, and since I can bring 6-8 SS squads to bear as well as a Pz VIB and a 75mm gun against 4 squads hiding there, I think I have an edge :-) That should provide enough trouble for him to allow me to gain the 61 LVP I need to assure he has to go for the sudden-death VC, and then withdraw everything to the St. Anne Chapel. Not impossible. I'll give it my best shot. -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 16:09:56 EST From: brad.andrews@cas.org (Brad Andrews) Subject: KGP?-SOLVED To All: I got my reply (actually replies) that KGP was one of the modules along the lines of Red Barricades. Thanks to all. Brad ----- From: Doug Gibson Subject: Re: KGP? Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 13:39:04 PST > I know this is probably a stupid question. But as a lurker, > I have no idea what KGP means. Could someone please enlighten > me? (There may be others on the list who don't know as well.) > > If it is because I haven't read the rules enough, I am guilty. > I have the rules and a few expansions, but haven't done anything > with them for some time, except getting trounced in a face-to-face > game about two years ago. > > Brad Nope, you're only guilty of not picking up the latest modules as they come out. KGP is Kampfgruppe Peiper (more accurately, Kampfgruppe Peiper I, as part II will be out later), a historical module (have you figured out RB = Red Barricades yet?) about the Dec. 1944 Ardennes offensive. -- -Doug Gibson dag@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 13:43:24 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: KGP? Brad: "KGP" is the lingo for the most recent Historical ASL (HASL) module, Kampfgruppe Peiper. It is, in fact being released in two parts, I & II and you might see them referred to as KGPI & KGPII. Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock [stuff deleted] > I know this is probably a stupid question. But as a lurker, > I have no idea what KGP means. Could someone please enlighten > me? (There may be others on the list who don't know as well.) [stuff deleted] ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 14:02:11 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: More possibly pointless musings Images from MBT and ASL collided in my brain the other day. In MBT, vehicles, equipment, aircraft and personnel are all shown in overview. In ASL, personnel seem to be in their own dimension, seeing as they are depicted in sideview. I guess this also applies to Blazes. Trenches/Pillboxes occupy yet another dimension slightly askew from the other two. Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 16:39:13 -0600 From: Bryan Milligan Subject: Order of module purchase Greetings, I was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me on a good sequence of purchase for the various modules. It would help to know what modules are prerequisite to the pruchase of others. No, I'm married so I can't go out and buy them all. I'd invariably fail the GPTC (Game Purchase Task Check) every time I tried. :-D Bryan ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Isentropic Entity Subject: Re: Order of module purchase On Tue, 25 Jan 1994, Bryan Milligan wrote: > Greetings, > I was wondering if anyone out there could enlighten me > on a good sequence of purchase for the various modules. It > would help to know what modules are prerequisite to the > pruchase of others. No, I'm married so I can't go out and ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > buy them all. I'd invariably fail the GPTC (Game Purchase ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Task Check) every time I tried. :-D Oh man! I'm married and I bought all of the modules over a two month period. Luckily my wife didn't care :-), because it's the only hobby I have...well, besides my motorcycles :-)! As far as what order...hmmmm...I'm no expert yet, but I would say buy Beyond Valor (#1) and Paratrooper (#2) first. But perhaps play Paratrooper first since it is labelled an introductory module and contains all the counters that you need to play...but you do need the boards from SL to play. So I guess it's an introductory module for people migrating from SL. After those two, well I guess it depends on what theatre and/or nationality you're interested in...though you should buy Yanks so you can have the complete Amercan order, as well as the German and Russian orders from Beyond Valor. BCNU! ***************************************************************************** * Neal E. Ulen (nealu@crow.csrv.uidaho.edu) * * * * Ninja.. * * You have no voice * a bike of any * * To be heard my son, * other name is * * No one can hear when you're * just a motorcycle. * * Screaming in Digital -Queensryche * * ***************************************************************************** ----- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 1994 19:57:48 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Ahistorical ASL Has anyone come up with blasphemous, ahistorical scenarios (birth of an acronym: AHASL)? I was thinking of making one up for the final village fight in the movie "Kelly's Heroes". Just think, an entire OB of Heroes and SSRs for Paint Shell Special Ammunition and making a deal with the Tiger commander! You win by getting the gold and bugging out. Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 23:39:05 EST Subject: survey update (2) I have 78 respondants out of 265 readers. I will include a list of the names perhaps next week (I don't want to repeatedly send that list out since it will chew up valuable resources/money of those who must pay to read). I have sent email to all of you who have sent a survey to me. There are a few of you (three? including Keats Wilkie) who I have not been able to reach to confirm receipt. The enthusiastic first wave of respondants has stopped. As an encouragement to those of you who may be expert gamers or just plain interested gamers, but who are so new to ASL that you don't even have a game or two under your belt, I wish I had included a "[0] 5+2 ASL is neat, just along for the ride as a reader" category in the survey. FLASH: tell you what! If there are any of you out there who are uncomfortable answering the questions of the survey because you fit this 5+2 category, go ahead, send me mail, including the following string starting in the first character position of a line (if at all possible): [0] 5+2 I will interpret that as a) you don't own ANY part of the ASL system at all and b) therefore you would not answer the survey. If you own any part of the system, then you are welcome to fill out the survey. It's okay to skip questions too! One last thing: YOUR ANSWERS ARE CONFIDENTIAL. I will only summarize the aggregate information in a report. As I did with the first survey, I will remove the data files after I complete the report. I will especially not discuss how individuals rated themselves or who owns what. That is right out. Oh yes, I have received very helpful comments and suggestions (for the 3rd survey 8-) from Chuck Goetz and Brian Youse. Thanks. John Foley grendel@sos.wh.att.com grep, sed, awk: the real foundations of serious computing 8-) ----- From: abillsasl@aol.com Date: Tue, 25 Jan 94 20:49:37 EST Subject: RE: Night OBA JR writes >A good try, but night ... I have to agree with this point. I actually read the ASLRB about this one (after I posted). He also states >At the time I wrote my "bug report" my head was swimming >with night rules, I was under the impression that _all_ >concealed units would be treated as unconcealed in >Illuminated Locations. Since then I have realized that only >those under a Gunflash would be so treated, and so I have >downgraded this from a full bug to an oddity which might be >correct. Rule E1.81 does not state "Gunflashes within NVR, as per 1.101, are to be treated as unconcealed". I think a clarification is in order, but I would think that if the target was within NVR (1.101) you would fire at the target normally, ie. the rule should state "Fire at/observation of a Gunflash beyond the firer's NVR and which can not be treated as being within NVR, as per E1.101, is treated ...". That's a big difference from treating those particular units as unconcealed. The problem is what does the exception refer to - whether the unit is considered beyond the firer's NVR, or whether to treat the target as concealed or unconcealed. Considering what rule 1.101 is about IMHO the former is the correct interpretation. The choice seems to be between the sensible and the absurd. APB ----- From: joq@austin.ibm.com (Jack O'Quin) Subject: ASL Open after-action report (long) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 00:34:48 -0600 Someone asked for after-action reports from the ASL open. I wasn't taking notes, and probably missed a lot, but I'll give it a try. Maybe some of the others will chip in to correct my errors. For me, this was sort of a "beginning/intermediate player's introduction to tournaments". Having never attended any tournament before, I really didn't know what to expect. Since most of my limited experience with ASL consists of getting regularly and soundly trounced by Matt Shostak (hi, Matt ;-)), I expected this to be another educational, but "character-building" experience. Well, my first big surprise was that about half of the 45 or so players in attendance were near my skill level. Of course, many famous players were there, too: including Gary Fortenberry, Bill Connor, Steven Swann, Mike McGrath, and special guest Bob MacNamara. There were also a number of "famous players from the information super-highway" (AKA, the Internet). I probably missed a few, but I did meet Joe Sylvester, Bryan Milligan, John Farris and Tom Campbell among the crowd. I hope others whom I missed will forgive me (and also speak up with their own experiences). We were definitely outnumbered by the Genie crowd. Of course, some are on both lists. Please forgive me if I misspell people's names. I was much too busy playing to take notes. Carl Fago has already posted the final results. In the semi-finals, Bill Conner's Americans held off Guy Chaney's Germans in _Defiance_on_Hill_30. Interestingly, Mike McGrath (as the Germans) defeated Rob Wolkey in the other semi-final playing the same scenario. I don't know if this was accidental or intentional. They were all sitting together along the same table. In the final, Mike wanted the Chinese in _Totsugeki!_, but was unable to hold off Bill's Japanese. Someone please post corrections if I've got some of this wrong. I was playing my own matches, and some of this information is hearsay. Also, I didn't hear who won the 3rd-place match between Guy and Rob. Personally, I had a great time! Two days later, I'm still on somewhat of an emotional high from the experience. There was lots of close competition and plenty of good sportsmanship to go around. Some personal experiences: In the first round I took the Belgians in scenario 48, _Toujours_L'Audace_. This excellent scenario literally came down to the final dice roll. My opponent needed a 5 or less in the final close combat to beat me. He rolled a 3 and won, but I still felt pretty good. The excitement was electric. An unusual event occurred during this game. In turn 2, my sniper killed the German sniper, removing it from the board since his SAN was initially 2. In turn 3, the German rolled successfully for civilian interrogation [E2.4], but there was no sniper counter from which to measure the Random Location DR. Instead, we agreed to calculate from the location containing the German sniper's dead body. This turned out to be approximately correct. I asked Bob MacNamara about it the next day. He told me the question had already come up at AH. His answer for the next Q&A: place the sniper counter in any location that would be legal if you were setting up, figure the interrogation location from there, then remove the sniper again. Thay way, people don't have to remember where the sniper had formerly been located. In the second round I played the Germans in RB3, _Bread_Factory_#2, another oustanding classic. This is one of several Stalingrad scenarios with an SSR that causes a German leader to go berzerk. At one point my opponent and I had berserk stacks simultaneously charging East and West. My berserk 9-1 led two squads astray when he lost his mind. They were all vaporized by a point-blank 30 (-3) shot, charging the Russians' best kill stack (result: 4KIA, ouch!). Despite this rather traumatic experience I managed to hang on and win the scenario. At this point I was having so much fun playing classics, I figured I'd stick to them. After all, they got to be classics for a reason. So, in the third round I played the British in scenario 35, _Blazin'_Chariots. In this scenario, the Germans set up a bunch of tanks in a row, then a dozen British Stuarts charge them. My opponent's German setup was somewhat flawed, being weak on one side. This allowed me to overwhealm his defenses at that point, and defeat him in detail. For my last game, I tried _Morgan's_Stand, an ASLUG scenario, that I'd never heard of before. I took the Germans, who attack in four random groups against a village held by a small American force. Behind the village is a one-way, wooden bridge across which the American reinforcements must cross. The catch is: it may collapse under any vehicle exceeding 10 tons gross weight! Also, the American tanks suffer ammunition shortage. If they run out of shells they'll be recalled, forcing them to cross the bridge and, perhaps, break it before their reinforcements can get across. By then, I had the proverbial "thousand-yard stare". The four groups of German units must enter one per turn in random order. I probably should have started carefully, building my strength as subsequent groups enter. Instead, I attempted an agressive end-run with the first group, which turned out to be an infantry platoon plus an SPW 250/10 halftrack. That's the one with a 37mm gun. Well, they were shot to pieces. This left the second group outgunned, so they didn't fare too well, either. Thanks to a broken bazooka, the SPW did manage to get around behind the village and occupy the bridge. Unfortunately, it was too light (six tons) to break the damn thing. The rest of the Germans entered OK, but by then it was about time for my opponent and me to leave, so I conceded. If there had been time, it would have been fun to play this one out; but my prospects of winning were definitely not good. I guess I must have approximated the historical result. The aftermath said something about "uncoordinated German attacks" not being very successful. All-in-all I had a memorable experience. All you other newbies like me (and I know you're out there), don't be intimidated by the big names in these national tournaments, go on out and give it a try. You'll be glad you did. Jack O'Quin ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 09:56:17 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: Ahistorical ASL Brent Pollock writes: > Has anyone come up with blasphemous, ahistorical scenarios (birth of > an acronym: AHASL)? Sure, you should look for the "Popcorn" scenarios in old issues of the ASL digest. They're even mentioned in the record, although it seems that nobody has ever really played them. To be more precise, they appeared in: 1: 2-9 2: 2-9 3: 2-10 4: 2-12 Bas. ----- From: j.sylvester2@genie.geis.com Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 04:19:00 BST Subject: ASLOpen Matt and any interested, I was at the open and can give you the view from someone who holds no illusions of grandeur (or spelling ability). My first game was against Mr. McGrath. Yeah, let's pit the Italians against the Marines. The game was Bridge of the 7 Doo-das. I was actually doing pretty well and had a decent chance of winning for a while, but made a critical mistake on turn 6. I was the Germans and had pretty much cleared my side of the river. I had a stack with my 92, 3 squads, HMG, 2 MMGs in a good vantage point to clear the other side of the bridge area but decided there was a better spot over yonder. See, from there, I could also keep his 91 and 2 HMGs from reinforcing the bridge area. The game would almost be a cinch when the OBA Smoke fell. Well little did I know but that 91 and 2 HMGs had LOS to one of the bypass hexsides I needed. If the shock of that wasn't enough to give me a 4 chol- esterol check, he went and rolled a 2. Nothing like a quick death. So the rest of the tournament I was treaated to a chorus of "4KIA! 4KIA! Sure, anybody can get a KIA against a lone HS! I got 4 units with a 4KIA!" Oh well, I aim to please. My next game was pretty straight forward with someone more at my level. The next morning I played 'The Professionals' against Gary Fortenberry. Yes, Tom, the new MOL rule makes a big difference. Unfortunately that wasn't the only thing the Yugoslavs had working against them. I think they had this thing about throwing their water bottles at the tanks and drinking the gasoline. My next game was the crowning moment of the tournament for me. A 12 hour bout of Khamsin that almost went into the final CCPh. The Germans pulled it out as the British player managed to break every gun _at least_ once. Three of his tanks ended up getting recalled which was fine with me except that I couldn't get the DVP that I desperately needed. This is the second time I've played it and the second time it has been a great scenario. If anyone is asking that has got to be one of the best scenarios ever. I met a whole wad o' inet personalities, which is always cool. Mr. Milligan, I now know that I had not read your note when we met, since it was among the 132 messages in my mbox when I got home. Matt Brown, where were you? Those were my highlights. Other news: Bill 'The Fish' Connor won and bought a round of beers for everyone left. Of course the place was steeped in Cowboy fever by that point. Rob Wolkey, who seems to be the butt of everyone's jokes was playing for 3d when I left -- always love to see the underdog do some damage. Hope that settles some curiosities, JOE ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:02:17 +0100 From: oleboe@idt.unit.no Subject: Woods/Road questions I've been playing Panthers in the Mist lately, a game with lots of woods/road hexes, and this led to some questions: Do an AFV on the road part of a W/R hex really affect the units in the woods part of the same hex? The only place I found mentioning this was one of the KGP SSRs saying that in a narrow road, a vehicle must move into the woods part of the hex to overrun a Gun. Does this mean that Infantry as well as Guns in normal woods/road hexes are treated as being on the open road (except of the TEM) when a vehicle drives up the road. If I were Infantry lying in the woods near a road, I would certainly not reveal myself (maybe unless I've got a PF or something). The questions are: *Is a concealed/hidden unit in the woods part of the hex revealed if a vehicle moves in the road part? What if the road is narrow? *Can the vehicle overrun a unit in the woods part of the hex without passing a Bog Check? What if the road is narrow? In the game one of the Shermans bogged while trying to move into a woods/road hex. It is then bogged in the hex it moved into, right? Common sense says the vehicle doesn't block the road - if it had reached the road, it would not be bogged, but doesn't this vehicle force other vehicles to risk a Bog Check to pass it (The road was narrow), or does the rules say that a vehicle in the woods part of the hex doesn't block the road. I couldn't find it, but I think it should be somewhere. At last I have a question regarding Riders. In an earlier game (North Bank), a German Tiger with Riders, behind a Wall was shot at. I couldn't find anything in the rules saying that the rider doesn't get the Wall Hindrance, but common sense says that the rider is sitting too high to get any benefit of the Wall. What is right? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- If you cut off my head, what do I say: Ole Boe Me and my head or oleboe@idt.unit.no Me and my body? ----- From: j.sylvester2@genie.geis.com Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 02:47:00 BST Subject: ASL Dealership Howdy all, Sometime around last spring, someone listed a tournament sponsored by a wargame dealer. If I recall, the prices were pretty good, too. Unfortunately, I don't remember who it was. If you're still out there, I'm looking to buy some ASL stuff. Also, if Mike Seningen (sp?, sorry) is still out there, would you please drop me a line? Thanks and my humility to those whose bandwidth was wasted, JOE ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 10:12:10 From: tqr@inel.gov (Tom Repetti) Subject: ASL Theater Presents For your enjoyment and edification, we bring you a slice of life drama which will be familiar to those of you with kids, and a word of warning to those of you without. We take you now to the Everyman household, where Joe Everyman is trying to unwind with a little kitchen table ASL after a hard day at work. Joe's 2-year-old daughter Katie enters from stage left. "Hi Daddy" "Hi, Kiddo, whatcha doin?" (Arms outstretched) "Up?" "No, hon, I'm kinda busy here..." (Completely undeterred by this 1(+3) parental potshot) "Up? Up? Up?" (Infinitesimal grimace and sigh) "Oh, OK, up-we-go. Oof, you're getting heavy" (Pointing to the board) "WhasSAT?" "Well, I'm playing a game" "Katie wan' play TOO?!" (Heavier sigh. Joe looks around for Mom, but she appears to be HIP. What the hell, let's go for it) "OK, which side do you want? You want the green?" "OOOH, GREEN!" (Holding up a 7-4-7) "Daddy see green?" "Yeah, I see it, hon. No, don't put it up your nose. No, don't put it up my nose either. Now which color should Daddy play? Do I get the blue?" "Nooooo." "OK, do I get the yellow?" "Nooooo. Daddy play BROWN" "Brown? The Russians? No honey, the browns don't play the greens, see..." (Tantrum starts) "BROWN BROWN BROWN. Daddy play BROWN." (Routing under DM) "OKOKOKOK, Daddy plays Brown. Now see these things? They're called boards. Can you say 'boards' ?" "Bowards" (Proud Papa) "All riiight! Now which bowards are we gonna play on? You want this one?" (Points to board 7) "OK. An' THISA one" (Reaches for board 28) "Ohhhhkaaaay, we got a river running next to the desert. Looks good to me. 'Alexandria, July 1945 - Seeking to strengthen their postwar empire, the Russians attacked southward across Turkey and Palestine and drove for the Suez Canal. Furious at this breach of the Teheran accords, Roosevelt immediately dispatched American forces to defend the Canal and its vital lifeline to the Indian Ocean...' " (Quizzical look on her face) "Daddy OK?" "Uh, yeah, I'm OK honey. Now you put your greens over here, and I'll put my browns over here. OK, now we're ready to play. Now I'm gonna cross this river here with my browns. You wanna shoot at them and roll the dice?" (Noticing the dice) "YEAH!" (Very excited, starts bouncing on Daddy's lap. Too late, Daddy notices that nobody's given this kid a diaper change in quite a while. Sigh. Seeing as how it would involve major trauma to stop playing and change everybody's clothes, Joe grimly trudges on. War is hell.) "OK take the dice. No, don't put them in your mouth. Now just take them and drop them into this nice glass cup here. No, don'tdothat- " (Flinging the dice into the living room with gusto) "Fife!" (tremendous look of accomplishment on her face) (Even heavier sigh, but smiles anyway when faced with such joie-de-vivre) "Awriight, Five! Good throw, honey! OK, let's go see what you rolled. Where'd it go? Well, of course, under the couch. All right, what do we got? Hmm, a 1 and a 4. Looks like a 2MC to me. Here, go ahead and roll again cuz I gotta see what happened to these three browns of mine." (Katie flings the dice again, with less enjoyment since dice-flinging is now something that Daddy WANTS her to do.) "Huh, a 2 and a 3. Here, try that again." (Hard to get her to even take the dice now; this dice-flinging must be some kind of punishment. Starting to whimper, she barely holds them and drops them as quickly as she can.) "Hmm, a 3 and a 2. I'm doing pretty good! Here, just ONE MORE throw and we'll be all done." (The jig is up. Katie refuses to take the dice and starts the Tantrum Dance in preparation for a Full Bore Blowout. Undeterred and inflamed with curiosity about the next roll, Daddy forces the dice into her hand) "C'MON HONEY, JUST ROLL THE DICE!" (Completely undone and shrieking by now, Katie chucks the dice and runs from the room screaming for Mommy. Too late, Joe realizes that he may have gone a bit overboard on that last one. Realizing he has only a few minutes before the Mommy Board of Inquiry is convened to investigate his lack of judgement, over-committment to ASL, under-committment to household chores, and various other character flaws, Joe scans the floor to see what happened to the dice. No idea where they went. Joe hears Mom and Katie upstairs. Look under the couch again - nope. Check between the cushions - nope. Sounds of indignant footsteps on the stairs - they're coming for him - no time to lose! Look under the TV - no! ) "JOE! WHAT ON EARTH WERE YOU DOING?!!" (Joe realizes he's hosed. He casts his eyes downward, and there on the coffee table is a single die. With poignant irony, he reads its face - a 5.) Tom ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 12:10 EST From: sdennis@mail.msen.com (Steven M Dennis) Subject: Night Defender setup I'm pretty sure I got this one right... After I setup my defending squads, I get to conceal them, and then I get dummy ?s equal to the number of squads right? The intent is not to use the given ?s to conceal your OB right, but to act as dummies? -------------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Dennis sdennis@msen.com Hail To The Victors!!!! It's soooo pretty!! WS WMCJ ----- From: Johan Herber Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 18:34:55 +0100 Subject: FT vs AFV bug? During a recent KGP scenario I was able to flame a poor motion Sherman at Long Range in the AFPh with extremely heavy mist and orchard hindrance in effect. It seems a bit strange to me that the chance of killing an AFV under these circumstances are the same as doing it in the PFPh vs a stationary target with no hindrance in effect. Anyone heard of a fix? I have found no relevant Q&A. /Johan Relevant rules: A22.2 DRM: FT attacks vs _Infantry_ [my emphasis] are resolved on the IFT but receive no DRM due to leadership or defender's TEM except for LOS Hindrances and non-CA attacks on a pillbox (B30.113). A22.34 vs AFV: A FT attack against an AFV is resolved on the C7.34 HE & Flame To Kill Table, but only if the AFV is predesignated as the main target. If the AFV is not destroyed, its vulnerable PRC are still subject to a Specific Collateral attack (A.14). AF do not affect a FT attack, but the FT's Basic TK# is halved at long range. The FT's Basic TK# is increased by one if the target AFV is CE, and by two if OT (or by three if both CE and OT). C7.344 FT/MOL: No AF apply to FT/MOL attack. The Basic TK# of both FT and MOL attacks are increased by +1 if the AFV is CE, or by +2 if the AFV is OT (both modifiers can apply only to FT attack; MOL attacks can be modified by only one or the other). To Kill Modification Case C and D are NA to FT/MOL. However, the Basic TK# of a FT is halved if it is firing at Long Range. ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 09:59:18 PST From: Frederick.Timm@Eng.Sun.COM (Fred Timm) Subject: Re: Night Defender setup Steve You are right about this. > > I'm pretty sure I got this one right... > > After I setup my defending squads, I get to conceal them, and then I > get dummy ?s equal to the number of squads right? The intent is not to > use the given ?s to conceal your OB right, but to act as dummies? > > Johan I have seen some unpublished errata (planned for the 94a annual) that says you did this right. I have talked to Mac about fixing this now rather than leave it this way for now and wait until AH can redo the rules. > During a recent KGP scenario I was able to flame a poor motion Sherman > at Long Range in the AFPh with extremely heavy mist and orchard > hindrance in effect. It seems a bit strange to me that the chance of > killing an AFV under these circumstances are the same as doing it in > the PFPh vs a stationary target with no hindrance in effect. Anyone > heard of a fix? I have found no relevant Q&A. > > /Johan Fred ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 13:37 EDT From: Dan Sullivan Subject: RE:ASL Theater Presents > (tqr@inel.gov > >For your enjoyment and edification, we bring you a slice of life drama which >will be familiar to those of you with kids, and a word of warning to those >of you without. > [Story about playing ASL with a 2 year old deleted] And of course, I've learned the hard way also. Always keep the den/ASL-game-room closed when I'm not around, or else little 14 month old Jake turns Stalingrad into an earthquake zone. "Earthquake: 15MC, if failed scatter to oblivion ...." ------------------ Dan Sullivan djsullivan@bbn.com ----- From: pabl@im.se Subject: opponents wanted Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 13:10:03 EST To any ASL players in Southern New Jersey. ASL/SL player near Atlantic City looking for opponents. I would be willing to travel anywhere within an hour or so. Please send replies to pabl@im.se thanks Paul Blankenship. ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 11:21:20 PST From: David van Kan <6600P@NAVPGS.BITNET> Subject: Snap shot at Dash OK, I'm sure this happens _all_ the time. Well, at least I thought about doing it to Don Hancock, but decided it probably wasn't worth it. What happens if you take a Snapshot at a Dashing unit? Is the FP halved or quartered? Dave ----- From: kinney@sage.cgd.ucar.EDU (Rodney Kinney) Subject: KGP: More Action Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 12:40:21 MST Midnight, Dec. 19: American troops crept out of the night into a face-to-face confrontation with the SS. The Germans possessed the entire board after the PM scenario, and faced with the dangerous-looking alternative of entering a large force through a relatively narrow entry area in broad daylight with Germans setting up two hexes from the board edge, the American decided that a night assault was needed to bring his rapidly-regenerating fighting force back onto the map. The American team was joined by Keats Wilkie and his mighty Lego dice tower. By attacking at night, the American has at least a couple of turns to get squads onto the board and relatively dispersed before the German can respond (particularly with the tailor-made-for-just-such- situations large-caliber OBA). One wide disparity between the sides' abilities at night is the scarcity of IR for the Germans. 81mm MTR's (of which the Germans begin with but one) are the only German weapons which can fire them, while the Americans, with their plethora of 60mm MTR's, can light up the landscape from horizon to horizon on demand. Lack of IR makes Observing for OBA particularly difficult, since starshells are very unpredictable, and anyone close enough to be able to fire a starshell that will illuminate an OBA target is probably in danger of ending up in the blast area himself. The Germans purchased no OBA, and the Americans moved a SR around, but never called in a fire mission (see below). The Americans paid an extra 50% to bring in one RG early on the 20AM red entry arrow. They were to clear the way for red groups to enter in the future and link up with the rest of the American forces entering from the 19AM blue arrow. A string of Strategic Objectives were designated to make a single setup area across that corner of the board. Examination of the costs chart reveals that the cheapest RG able to enter on the red arrow is an Assault Engineer platoon. Bringing this on early costs 13 pts, a good chunk of change, but worth the cost by the results. The Engineers out-classed the German rabble left to guard the area and easily secured the objectives. As a bonus, they snuck up on a King Tiger and burned it with their flamethrower. One squad and a DC were destroyed by a KIA from a 75mm gun, somewhat marring the success of the mission. Two CPP spent on Recon (a first for me!) seemed a good investment, but when you've got the budget that the Americans do, it's easy to pronounce anything cheap a "good buy." The Recon exposed some dummies and revealed a potentially dangerous minefield, and was also used to identify the contents of a cloaking counter from a German Reserve RG. This turned out not to be legal, as all reconnoitered Locations have to be within 6 hexes of a Setup Area, and Reserve counters must be placed >= 8 hexes away. While the main objective of the night was to obtain a substantial setup area in the northwest, one American platoon tried to keep the Germans on their toes by slipping off south of the stream to try and cheaply expand the setup area towards the village. This was where the automatic Freedom of Movement made a difference, as one of the German 9-2's took it upon himself and his two squads to stop that nonsense forthwith. Without the Freedom of Movement, the American infiltrators could have made good progress, but the platoon very quickly became pinned down trying to cross Illuminated Open Ground in the LOS of the 9-2. The leader of this platoon carried the American radio, but could not find a good target, due mostly to his own efforts to stay out of sight. As the mist lifted from Heavy to Moderate to Light and the NVR climbed from 1 to 4, sneaking past the Germans became more and more infeasible. Eventually, the leader and two squads were eliminated, while one squad, without equipment, managed to create an 8-1 leader and reach safety. The remainder of the American forces split between crossing the woods in the northwest to link up with the Engineers and pushing the Germans back along the paved road. Working their way up the woods, the Americans advanced concealed 20FP stacks adjacent to the German target of their choice, and were difficult to stop. At the end of the night, after 7 1/2 turns, the American Setup Area reached from the victory building in RR23 to a Strategic Location at the edge of the woods in HH15, 5 hexes from the Sanatorium, to a Strategic Location on the paved road at EE7, and up to another Strategic Location in Z7. The Americans sustained 20 CVP (all Infantry, including _two_ 9-2 leaders killed by sniper fire), and the Germans lost 28 CVP in Infantry, one Mk IV and one Tiger. A bad day for Heavy Weapons Platoons as an American .50-cal and two German HMG malfunctioned and were removed. The Americans retain ~18 squads, with the Germans fielding ~11 SS and 2-3 other squads, plus an unending supply of half-track crews. One Panther is abandoned in No-Man's Land, but another managed to repair its immobilization, so the Germans retain one Tiger, two Panthers, a Mark IV with no MA, and one Whirlwind. The Americans drove their single Sherman, one 57mm and one 76mm AT gun (all veterans from the initial attack) on to the board at the scenario's end, so they will be available for setup tomorrow. The Danger of Darkness: The Germans had a King Tiger parked behind a roadblock near the 20AM red entry arrow. As soon as he knew that the units coming towards him were Assault Engineers, he knew he had to leave, and fast. Trouble was, he was still marked "No Move." In fact, if any vehicle had yet seen a Known Enemy unit it would have enabled all radio- equipped vehicles to move, but none had. In hindsight, a pitiful halftrack stuck right up front would have been just the thing to allow all vehicles to get moving, but the poor Tiger was on his own. He was firing MG, swinging his VCA, using _Intensive_Fire_ against cloaking counters, all in a crazy attempt to strip concealment and allow himself to move. To no avail. The Assault Engineers crept forward, pointed the flamethrower, and sent the confused Tiger crew to a fiery demise. rk ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 12:45:58 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Scrounging Wrecked HT has an ATR on board along with the inherent LMG. How can I get the ATR off (and the LMG). If I scrounge and roll a 1, do I get to choose? If I scrounge and roll a 2 or 3, do I then get both of them. Can I just pick up the ATR like normal sw retrieval? Would I have to Load onto the wrecked HT? Seems kind of wierd! Spend a MF to load, spend a MF to attempt retrieval, spend a MF to unload. What modifiers would I get to shots against me? Thanks, Don Hancock ----- Date: 26 Jan 1994 14:53:27 -0500 From: "William Cirillo" Subject: Wanted- PBeM Game Subject: Time:2:36 PM OFFICE MEMO Wanted: PBeM Game Date:1/26/94 To Whom it may.., I'm an ASL newbie (7-0) with two FTF games under my belt who has recently joined the ASL Discussion group. I'm looking for an opponent for my first PBeM game. I currently own Beyond Valor, Yanks, Paratrooper, and have several of the Annuals and General scenarios. I would prefer initially to play a game that was infantry dominated or had a small number of AFVs as I'm still getting up to speed on the AFV rules. If anyone is interested please give a holler at w.m.cirillo@larc.nasa.gov. Thanks. Bill Cirillo P.S. I am in the process of joining the ASL PBeM Ladder and should have my points soon. ----- From: Gerald Luther Graef Subject: ordinance DRMs Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:37:12 -0600 (CST) Hello... Recent playing has reintroduced a question which was thought to be long answered...its kinda simple, but don't let that stop you from helping out... ;) The question regards multiple firing during defensive fires. Suppose the first fire is out of covered arc. Is second and subsequent firing subject to the original drm for changing CA? Thanks...Gerry ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 15:02:58 -0500 (EST) From: Wayne Young Subject: Mapboard substitution Could anyone send me a mapboard substition list consisting of two or three substitution boards for each of SL boards 1-4, 6-12? I never owned the original SL (spare my life, please! =), but do have boards 5, 16-23, 25-29. I plan to get these boards, but I have to get back to a city or mail order them. In the mean time, it would be nice to play some the ASL scenarios requiring the old SL boards with- out having to play against the one person around here who has them... it gets rather limiting . Wayne Young youngwr@kirk.northernc.on.ca "Winter is Nature's way of saying, 'Up yours!'" ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 12:16:40 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: RE:ASL Theater Presents Kids aren't the only danger. Tigers, Panthers and "Elefants" are no match for the dreaded Domestic Cat. I have SL pieces with kitty-canine marks in them which is probably why entire platoons would scatter when they heard the pounding of its mighty paws. Share & Enjoy! Brent "losing-the-race-to-childproof-the-household" Pollock ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 17:02:35 -0500 (EST) From: HILDEBRANB@iccgcc.cs.hh.ab.com Subject: Re: ordnance DRMs From: SMTP%"ggraef@convex.csd.uwm.edu" 26-JAN-1994 16:55:41.42 >The question regards multiple firing during defensive fires. >Suppose the first fire is out of covered arc. Is second and >subsequent firing subject to the original drm for changing CA? Assuming you mean the same weapon firing subsequently then, no the original DRM for CA change doesn't count. Ex. a tank pivots its turret and fires its main and applies the appropriate CA DRM and if it retains ROF the subsequent shot would not apply the CA DRM, but if the tank then fired its Coax the CA DRM would apply to the CMG shot... Same philosophy applies if it was a vehicle CA change... Hope that clears it up some... Bret Hildebran hildebranb@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 14:14:53 PST From: David van Kan <6600P@NAVPGS.BITNET> Subject: Re: Scrounging Don, the ASLRB very clearly states you can scrounge LMG or SW from wrecked HT if, and only if, the HT was destroyed by a MOL CH from a berserk fanatic Dare Death lax female Estonian commissar, and then only if it is a night scenario occurring between 28 February and 1 March, exclusive. For all those who might take this reply seriously, it's my HT that Don is trying to loot. So of course he's not allowed to do it. :-) Dave ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 94 15:40:52 MST From: hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) Subject: Re: Scrounging > > Don, the ASLRB very clearly states you can scrounge LMG or SW > from wrecked HT if, and only if, the HT was destroyed by a MOL > CH from a berserk fanatic Dare Death lax female Estonian commissar, > and then only if it is a night scenario occurring between 28 February > and 1 March, exclusive. OK, so what's your point :-) I guess you didn't realize just WHO my tank commander was who shot you up, Denisova's identical twin adopted sister. And, during the instance you were destroyed, Rod Sterling zapped everything to 11:59 p.m. 29 February (leap year of course), and ... that was a new type of AP/MOL ammo that instead of piercing the tank, upon impact it turns into a MOL. OK, that covers it all. So, as I said, what's your point? :-) :-) When my squad gets that ATR, he's not going to shoot it at you, he's going to carry it into CC and beat your tank commander senseless with it. > > For all those who might take this reply seriously, it's my HT that Don > is trying to loot. So of course he's not allowed to do it. :-) Just Kidding :-) Don ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Re: Snap shot at Dash Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 00:34:01 +0100 (MET) Hi, > OK, I'm sure this happens _all_ the time. Well, at least I thought about > doing it to Don Hancock, but decided it probably wasn't worth it. > > What happens if you take a Snapshot at a Dashing unit? Is the FP halved > or quartered? It's halved, but why would you want to do it? If you take a snap shot, you get half FP with no modifiers, and if you fire in the hex dashed through you'd get half FP with a -2 DRM. Should the units break, they will end up in the same place anyway. OK, I admit I'm not 100% sure that it is only half FP, and it would make a difference if you could only see the hexside crossed or if the LOS to the center dot would cross a wall or somesuch. The reason I believe it should be half and not 1/4 FP is that otherwise you should be able to make one-hex dashes from house to house as well to get the same effect (or protection). This is all just MHO, of course. -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 21:51:01 -0500 (EST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: Scrounging In message Wed, 26 Jan 94 12:45:58 MST, hancock@ono.geg.mot.com (Don Hancock x2712) writes: > Wrecked HT has an ATR on board along with the inherent LMG. How can I > get the ATR off (and the LMG). If I scrounge and roll a 1, do I get to > choose? If I scrounge and roll a 2 or 3, do I then get both of them. > > Can I just pick up the ATR like normal sw retrieval? The way A4.44 reads you can attempt to Recover a SW in a friendly vehicle or in a wreck. Nothing in Chapter D contradicts this. Scrounging allows you to get a SW when a SW wasn't there in the first place. What I question is whether the SW being carried is removed if the CS DR is failed and the passengers are eliminated. Also, I just noticed, A4.44 does not limit _where_ a SW can be Recovered from. The way it reads, a unit can Recover a SW from all the way across the board! ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 22:02:10 -0500 (EST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: Snap shot at Dash In message Wed, 26 Jan 94 11:21:20 PST, David van Kan <6600P@NAVPGS.BITNET> writes: > What happens if you take a Snapshot at a Dashing unit? Is the FP halved > or quartered? I see no problem with a Snap Shot at a Dashing unit. As far as what fire to use, it depends. If you fire at the hexside going _into_ the road, I think the fire is only halved once since the fire is not into the road Location. (Area Fire is only in effect for fire into the road Location for a Dash.) If the fire is at the hexside _leaving_ the road, I think the fire is halved twice since the Snapshot fire would be at the road Location. Hope this helps. ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 22:44:44 -0500 (EST) From: John Appel Subject: Re: Ahistorical ASL Brent and I must be secret twins. I watched _Kelly's Heros_ the other week on TNT, and have been pondering the same thing. The way I have it figured, Kelly, Joe and Oddball are leaders - the first two heroic, of course. But what ratings? John John Appel jappel@access.digex.com On Tue, 25 Jan 1994, Brent Pollock wrote: > > Has anyone come up with blasphemous, ahistorical scenarios (birth of an > acronym: AHASL)? I was thinking of making one up for the final village > fight in the movie "Kelly's Heroes". Just think, an entire OB of Heroes and > SSRs for Paint Shell Special Ammunition and making a deal with the Tiger > commander! You win by getting the gold and bugging out. > > Share & Enjoy! > Brent Pollock > > ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 20:35:16 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Scrounging Don: I've never witnessed this before: an unpossessed SW in a subsequuently wrecked vehicle. Was it unpossessed or did you not remove it when its owner failed the CS DR (which is what I've always assumed happened, although I cannot find a rule stating this to be the case)? >From what I can make of the rules, you cannot attempt Recovery, rather you must attempt Scrounging. The only justification for this that I can offer is that Scrounging (D10.5) is alphanumerically superiour to Recovery (A4.44). Also, I would guess that a dr of 1 results in random selection for the SW received. I think this adequately collapses the wavefunction of Schroedinger's (sp?) half-dead SW (seeing as it didn't roll for survival). Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock > On Wed, 26 Jan 1994, Don Hancock x2712 wrote: > > Wrecked HT has an ATR on board along with the inherent LMG. How can I > get the ATR off (and the LMG). If I scrounge and roll a 1, do I get to > choose? If I scrounge and roll a 2 or 3, do I then get both of them. > > Can I just pick up the ATR like normal sw retrieval? Would I have to > Load onto the wrecked HT? Seems kind of wierd! Spend a MF to load, > spend a MF to attempt retrieval, spend a MF to unload. What modifiers > would I get to shots against me? > > Thanks, > > Don Hancock ----- Date: Wed, 26 Jan 1994 20:50:05 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Woods/Road questions Ole: The woods-road rules have never been my favourite because I've always felt that Street Fighting should apply therein. This is especially true for the one lane pine woods-roads in KGP. [stuff deleted] > The questions are: > *Is a concealed/hidden unit in the woods part of the hex revealed if a vehicle moves in the road part? What if the road is narrow? > *Can the vehicle overrun a unit in the woods part of the hex without passing a Bog Check? What if the road is narrow? Yes, and road width doesn't matter (I cannot find anything to the contrary). > In the game one of the Shermans bogged while trying to move into a woods/road hex. It is then bogged in the hex it moved into, right? Common sense says the vehicle doesn't block the road - if it had reached the road, it would not be bogged, but doesn't t his vehicle force other vehicles to risk a Bog Check to pass it (The road was narrow), or does the rules say that a vehicle in the woods part of the hex doesn't block the road. I couldn't find it, but I think it should be somewhere. Was the Sherman leaving the road or trying to access it? Check out B13.31: [EXC: a vehicle(s)in a woods-road hex is always considered on the road unless beneath a partial Trail Break counter]. > At last I have a question regarding Riders. In an earlier game (North Bank), a German Tiger with Riders, behind a Wall was shot at. I couldn't find anything in the rules saying that the rider doesn't get the Wall Hindrance, but common sense says that the rider is sitting too high to get any benefit of the Wall. What is right? Yes, because it's a TEM not a hindrance. D4.2 "...a HD target may not claim a Case Q TH DRM for a TEM based on a wall..." Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- From: r.woloszyn@genie.geis.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 01:08:00 BST Subject: EURO-ASL I am looking for information from some of the European members of this board regarding ASL tournaments in June and in December. Are there any firm dates established for Recontre or others in this time frame? I will be visiting my family in Germany and would like to catch some of the action over there. Any information will be appreciated. My own after action report from the ASL Open was 3-1 in long scenarios. The crowd was a bit disapointing due to the time of the year, perhaps, and the fact that many had to fly in due to the great distances in the southwest part of the USA. Many thanks for Gary for carrying the ball on the ASL Open. Certain events over which he had little control made it tough on him but he did have a great location with good lighting and cheap food. Raymond Woloszyn (zadra) ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 10:23:48 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: 93b debriefing question As I just told you, I got the 93b Debriefing from Mark Bennett. It contained one question without an answer: C1.9 May a rocket OBA module be assigned a PreRegistered hex, in order to halve its Extent-of-Error dr? Is there an answer in the Annual? If so, can somebody please tell me what it is? (It seems unlikely to me that the answer would be "Yes", but I've been wrong before.) Bas. ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 02:26:17 -0500 (EST) From: LANCELEU@delphi.com Subject: Night move Hi, is straying DR needed for a unit entering from offboard at night? If it is needed and the unit fails, how is it handled? Thanks. ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 10:39:57 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: Night move "A unit/stack entering from offboard in the MPh need not make a Movement DR until it actually enters the board, at which time it becomes subject to all Straying rules (1.53-.533)." This is on the chapter E clarification page from Code of Bushido. Bas. ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 10:19:27 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: New version of Q&A list Although I still don't have the 93b Annual :-(, Mark Bennett put the Debriefing under his OCR scanner and sent me the results. I have now incorporated them in the Q&A list. For those who don't know this yet, you can get the Q&A list a) by ftp from carlo.phys.uva.nl:/pub/bas/asl/misc/QA.Z b) by sending me (bas@phys.uva.nl) email with the subject "asl-q&a-request" Bas. ----- From: William G Jelinek Subject: Re: Snap shot at Dash Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 9:11:48 EST Hola-- > > What happens if you take a Snapshot at a Dashing unit? Is the FP halved > > or quartered? > > It's halved, but why would you want to do it? If you take a snap shot, > you get half FP with no modifiers, and if you fire in the hex dashed > through you'd get half FP with a -2 DRM. Should the units break, they > will end up in the same place anyway. > > OK, I admit I'm not 100% sure that it is only half FP, and it would make > a difference if you could only see the hexside crossed or if the LOS to > the center dot would cross a wall or somesuch. The reason I believe it > should be half and not 1/4 FP is that otherwise you should be able to > make one-hex dashes from house to house as well to get the same effect ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > (or protection). This is all just MHO, of course. I don't think the one-hex dash described above is a viable option. A dash must be across a road (sorry, no ASLRB at work, therefore, no rules reference). Again, without the ASLRB handy, do the KGP one-lane road rules allow for dashes between buildings in adjacent (or is that ADJACENT? AdJaCeNt?) hexes that are separated by a narrow street (or whatever they're called)? This would be the only situation where you could conceivably try a one-hex dash; but since the advantage v. incoming fire only applies in the road hex, the advantage would only apply v. snap shots to the road hexside. So this doesn't seem too terribly handy--especially since FFMO/FFNAM are NA with Snap Shots. As I see it, one-hex dashes are NA unless specifically covered in the KGP rules. Adios, Bill =============================================================================== Bill Jelinek jelinek.1@osu.edu --OR-- "I feel better than wjelinek@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu James Brown." =============================================================================== ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 10:26:52 GMT-0400 From: tom%ack@dmr.com (Tom Flaherty) Subject: Bore sighting question for a friend in desperate need of an answer Help! My main ASL partner (who is far better than me) is playing someone else and they are in the middle of a game where this point is very critical. The question is: Does the bore sighting -2 DRM vs infantry apply only during Defensive First Fire Phase or during all fire phases (I believe the relevant rule is 6.44 (not sure on that)). Thanks for your help. Tom Flaherty "May all your boxcars be derailed." ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 09:00:09 From: tqr@inel.gov (Tom Repetti) Subject: Re: Bore sighting question for a friend in desperate need of an answer > > Does the bore sighting -2 DRM vs infantry apply only during > Defensive First Fire Phase or during all fire phases (I believe the > relevant rule is 6.44 (not sure on that)). Thanks for your help. > Yep, C6.44 says the BS -2 DRM vs infantry applies only during First Fire. Why? I dunno. > Tom Flaherty > > "May all your boxcars be derailed." > How about my snakeyes? My game of Agony of Doom vs Dave The Marine. I bring a fat juicy platoon of infantry in using armored assault. Dave's Tiger's AAMG kicks in - range is 9, but he thinks the AAMG has a range of 12, so he rolls the 2(+0) attack. Gets a 1,4 (NMC) and proceeds to roll snakeyes for not one, but TWO of my 628's, turning them into Fanatics. But wait! What's that you say? The attack really was Long Range so it's a 1(+0) shot, and the 1,4 PTC can't generate HoB? Aaarrrrrgggghhhhh! Tom "When you deal with high numbers, you need higher math" - Hobbes ----- From: r.woloszyn@genie.geis.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 03:28:00 BST Subject: ASL in CT (not Xmas) For interest parties in the Hartford, CT area I would like to point out that I will be in that area on business and free the weekend of 2/27 & 2/26 for some Face-to-Face AREA or otherwise games of ASL. Just e-mail me info at my GEnie address. Thanks. ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 12:12:05 -0600 (CST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: Snap shot at Dash In message Thu, 27 Jan 1994 16:56:32 +0100, oleboe@idt.unit.no writes: >> What happens if you take a Snapshot at a Dashing unit? Is the FP >> halved or quartered? > > I think the FP is only halved once. The reason for this is that (if I'm > not wrong again) FP is never halved more than once due to the target's > status. No. Area Fire, as defined in the index allows sequential having for each applicable application of Area Fire. The fire is quartered if the snap shot is made at a unit in a road location. *-=Carl=-* ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 11:26:58 CST From: archerb@uinta.ssc.gov (Bill Archer) Subject: Re: Snap shot at Dash Having read the KGP rules just two nights ago, I clearly remember a footnote stating that dash across the village narrow roads was NA because Mac did not want to deal with the interaction between dash, snapshot, and narrow roads. My guess is that a combined snapshot, dash gives a 1/4 FP, 0 DRM. Not terribly good unless it is a 36FP stack :). Unless there is a rule that says snapshot is NA vs dash, hmmmm. ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 12:51:38 CST From: archerb@uinta.ssc.gov (Bill Archer) Subject: ASL Open afteraction report (long) Here is my afteraction report on the ASL Open. The attendence was only about 50 people, but I believe everyone had a good time. Especially helpful was the atmospherics provided by the wedding reception next door on Saturday night, the bass reverberations gave a good imitation of a 105 OBA :) My first round was as the French in "Bridge of the Seven Planets", (79) againist Eric Baker. Eric played a nice solid game and won on the second to last turn. Highlights including having all three French leaders on board and wounded at the same time, losing all three French leaders by turn 6, and having the 9-1 go down in CC while manning a MMG solo and wounded, thereby holding up the main German advance for a turn. A hint: read the French setup conditions carefully, the foxholes and leaders can be set up on BOTH sides of the river, Ouch. Next was "Beyond the Pakfronts" (ASLUG1) were I was the Germans againist Phil Watkins. This started off by introducing Phil to the fine art of overruns. As he put it, "I'm getting my ass kicked by HALFTRACKS!". By turn 5 when the Russian armor reinforcements came, the only thing left to reinforce was the HIP AT gun which had not fired a shot. It then became a game of cat and mouse between armor in the wheat field. I managed to move two STGs to surround a T34. In AFp the first STG shot at the T34, rolled a 3 and hit the side of the turret: burning T34. So the other STG, said what the heck, I'll acquire that Lee over there, I need snakes to hit. Snakes followed by a 1 on the dr, CH, burning LEE, Phil failed his ELR. I had a good time, but I'm afraid Phil didn't. Saturday brought "The Professionals" (A28) were I had the mighty Yugos againist Winston Forrest. By his last turn the Germans had cleared out the Yugos, but the only way he could win was by getting a halftrack with a squad over the bridge. Well, the squad and leader that had spent the entire game in the building next to the bridge, apparently had been emptying wine bottles, they just could not find any MOLs. Oh, well 1-2. (A61), "Across the Wire" as the Italian againist Brian Milligan. What can you say, desert, armor, he who rolls lowest the most wins: 2-2. Saturday finished with "Confusion Regins" (12) as the Americans againist Paul Hornbeck. Paul did a good job of running away, err withdrawing, but the Americans finally managed to capture a -1 leader and a squad before the Germans left the board. At that point the Germans were forced to counterattack across open ground were the US firepower chewed them up. 3-2. Sunday was "On the Kokoda Trail" (60) as the Japanese againist Steve Tinsley. This was only about the third time Steve had seen the Japanese, so he was unpleasently surprised by how resilient they can be. I had a couple of squads that ran through 8+0 shots to get behind him and cut off route paths. After about 4 turns he didn't have a front line anymore. I really like the Japanese :))). Sorry about the length of the post, but I had a blast and would encourage everyone to go to tournaments! ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 13:48:28 GMT-0400 From: tom%ack@dmr.com (Tom Flaherty) Subject: Update of bore sighting question for a friend in desperate need of an answer Folks, I found the original question and it is: Does -2 DRM for Bore Sighting with MG/IFE attack vs. infantry apply during DFF or in all Fire Phases (or is it only spraying fire that receives the -2 during DFF only? Rodney Kinney made a reference to an errata. Rodney, which errata was that? Thanks for the replies so far. Tom Flaherty ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 13:41:21 From: tqr@inel.gov (Tom Repetti) Subject: The Professionals Strategy Q Did anybody at the ASL Open (or anywhere else for that matter) ever try wheeling one of the Yugo 47mm ATG's across the bridge? I wonder how that strategy might play out. Certainly an ATG on the far side of the bridge would not be in danger of missing the action. I figure it's *just* doable in 3 turns, but the Yugo player would have to fend off any Germans sprinting to the river edge to get some shots off while the crew was using Hazardous Movement. Anybody? Anybody? Bueller? Tom ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 14:28:21 -0500 From: Stewart R King Subject: Re: Bore sighting question for a friend in desperate need of an answer > > Does the bore sighting -2 DRM vs infantry apply only during > > Defensive First Fire Phase or during all fire phases (I believe the > > relevant rule is 6.44 (not sure on that)). Thanks for your help. > > > > Yep, C6.44 says the BS -2 DRM vs infantry applies only during First Fire. > Why? I dunno. I discovered this a while back, too. Silly, isn't it. > > > Tom Flaherty > > > > "May all your boxcars be derailed." > > > > How about my snakeyes? My game of Agony of Doom vs Dave The Marine. I bring > a fat juicy platoon of infantry in using armored assault. Dave's Tiger's > AAMG kicks in - range is 9, but he thinks the AAMG has a range of 12, so he > rolls the 2(+0) attack. Gets a 1,4 (NMC) and proceeds to roll snakeyes for > not one, but TWO of my 628's, turning them into Fanatics. > > But wait! What's that you say? The attack really was Long Range so it's a > 1(+0) shot, and the 1,4 PTC can't generate HoB? Aaarrrrrgggghhhhh! > [B > Tom "When you deal with high numbers, > you need higher math" - Hobbes A perfect time to insist on the rigorous application of A.2. Even _I_ would understand at that point! 8-:) Stewart ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 16:10:06 EST From: "Matthew E. Brown" Subject: Revised Sitrep #1 Folks: We are about to kick off Sitrep #1. Currently, we have 10 players and 2 volunteer judges. Using a ratio of 4 entrants per judge (myself included), we have 2 openings, or more if additional judges sign up. We have revised the Sitrep that was previously posted, so I am posting it again. While the changes are minor, they are significant: - Part 1 and Part 2 are resolved the same way (we dropped the sleaze phase). - The Finns are now one row closer to the Russians. - The Russian defense was shuffled a little - The Victory Point structure was clarified and expanded - The rules are (hopefully) a little clearer. Here's the current timetable: 1. Mail the Sitrep to the ASL list (last chance to sign up). (Wed 1-27) 3. Entry closed. Official Start. (Monday, 1-31) 4. Part 1 Entries due 1 week later to mattb@ctron.com. (Monday, 2-7) 5. Results to players due 1 week after that. (Monday, 2-14) 6. Part 2 due 1 week after that. (Monday, 2-21) 7. Final results back to players and posted to ASL list 1 week later. (Monday, 2-28) It's a target, anyway. It might actually go faster. Contents: --------- General Rules Sitrep #1 Specific Rules Other Stuff Beyond Sitrep #1 ---------------------------- General Rules for Sitrep #1: ---------------------------- 1) Register to enter by emailing to mattb@ctron.com. 2) When you are notified to begin, compose Part 1: the Rally, Prep Fire, and Movement Phases for the Finnish Player Turn in standard pbem notation (i.e., something readable and legal). DON'T ROLL ANY DICE. You may include conditional moves as in the example shown below. Keep it simple. Spell out modifiers as if we were your most clueless pbem opponent - if you don't claim it, we just might not apply it. 3) _EMAIL_ Part 1 of your move to mattb@ctron.com. 4) The judges will play out your Part 1 move, using the same randomly pre-generated sequence of DRs/drs for every entrant. The judge will control the opposing force, acting in accordance with pre-defined, secret fire discipline guidelines, and his own judgement. The judges will interpret your written moves as best they can. They will NOT ask you for clarification. 5) When the judges have completed and scored all entrant's Part 1 moves, we will send you your results for Part 1. 6) You then get to compose Part 2: the Advancing Fire Phase, Rout Phase, Advance Phase, and Close Combat Phase for the Finnish Player Turn, using the same method as Part 1. 7) _EMAIL_ Part 2 of your move to mattb@ctron.com. 8) Again, the judges will play out and score your move. When we are done with this round, the results will be posted to the list. Perhaps along with some medal-winners (examples of interesting/weird/brillant play). 9) Bask or hide when the results are posted. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sitrep #1 - Whistling Through the Graveyard Setting: ASL Scenario 1 - Fighting Withdrawal Finnish Game Turn 4 - Start of Rally Phase Situation Report: ----------------- While your countrymen were mopping up Russian resistance in the central town, you were put in command of the remainder of your company, and ordered to pursue the Soviets who had managed to escape the pincers of the initial assault on the town. Taking your men south on the eastern road, you had encountered no inital resistance, but when Petraala's squad entered the shops in the central district, they took losses from Russians firing from the town cemetary. These Russians quickly fell back. The Russian plan became obvious - They had split their forces into three groups, not two! The first had tried to delay the regiment, while the other two began to retreat immediately. Half of them had stopped at the cemetary as a final rearguard, while the rest had escaped to the south. Now, you were faced with what looks like a reinforced platoon, most of them on the ground floor of the old Lutheran church. Luckily, they haven't had time to climb the stairs to the upper level. Now it is up to your men to sweep them aside and continue south. In Game Terms: -------------- The Russians have exited 11 Victory points so far. The Finnish vanguard was lucky - the HIP Russians were west and and central, and are being dealt with by the main body of the battalion. The Russian rearguard is partially cut off by the spreading fire from the town hall. They must be bypassed or eliminated, or both, for a Finnish victory - any troops from the main body will be hard pressed to exit in time. The Mission: ------------ In one Finnish Game Turn, break/eliminate as many Russians as possible, while trying to ensure that enough Finns survive to exit and win by the end of the (hypothetical) game. Therefore, anything less than 11 Victory Points would result in a loss. Scoring: ------- At the end of the Finnish Turn, the Finnish player gets: 1 cvp for each GO Finnish squad/SMC between Rows L and K inclusive. 1.5 cvp for each GO Finnish squad/SMC between Rows J and H inclusive. 2 cvp for each GO Finnish squad/SMC between Rows G and A inclusive. 2 cvp for an eliminated or captured Russian squad/SMC. 1 cvp for a broken Russian squad/SMC. (HS = cvp * .5 for each of the above cvp awards). Setup: ------ Russian forces: 21K2/0 - 447 21J3/0 - 447 21J5/0 - 8-1,447/lmg 21J7 - 447 Finnish forces: 21N3 - 648 21N4 - 8-0,648 21M4 - 648,648 21M6 - 248 21M5 - 648 21M7 - 648,648 In addition, the Finnish player has 2 LMGs that can be placed with any Finnish unit(s). Blaze in 21G2/0,21G2/1, 21G3, 21F2/0, 21F2/1 Flame in 21G4/0 --------------------------------- Specific Rules for Sitrep #1 ---------------------------- 1) Only Board 21 Rows A through Q are playable (the action in the northern part of town is somebody else's problem). 2) Only the forces shown are in play. There are no HIP units lurking around. The Snipers are up north, out of range, so SAN is ignored. 3) The judges will control the Russians. 4) In Part 2, YOU will get to rout any Russians you break, all within the ASLRB statutes, of course. 6) All else is as described in ASL Scenario 1 (ELR, etc.). 7) All "Standard" rules are in effect, except as specifically modified in the Sitrep; optional rules (with an * in the ASLRB - example: A16) are NOT IN EFFECT. 8) Resolution is by Standard IFT. -------------------------------------- Other Stuff: ------------ 1) Try to avoid undue dependence on DRs (such as basing Advancing Fire upon recovering an SW in the MPh) in Part 1. While the judges will probably try to give you the benefit of the doubt, their patience is justifiably limited, and they have no obligation to give you a second chance on _ANYTHING_ (though they might). This is not likely to be a big deal in this sitrep, given that the Finns can freely deploy, for example. But in later ones (if any)? 2) Contact with judges will be indirect - they will not know whose entry(s) they are working on because I will strip out the names. If there is a problem, they'll tell me, and I'll pass it on. (I am not a control freak. I just want the judges to be able to be completely objective.) 3) The judge(s) will plot all defensive fire for all entries they are judging before looking at the DR/dr list, so that they have no way to mentally apply known DRs to a later entry. ROF fire will be usable on the spot, and if a unit is broken or eliminated, fire against it _can_ be re-allocated at the judge's discretion. (This is a goal. Obviously, late entries may make this harder. The point is, I don't want later entries to get hosed because the judge knows the next DR in the list is a 1,2). 4) The judge(s) will attempt to resolve all ambiguous moves as best as can be done. Try not to leave yourself open to interpretation. If a move is illegal, the judge will attempt to make the most similar legal move. If you disagree with his judgements, it is up to you to write better orders. There are no appeals in this court. Also: Request for an appeal = "I volunteer to judge the next Sitrep." 5) Conditional moves can be used to provide a _single_ alternative to a given action. For (fictitious) example: Prep Fire Phase 1. h4 (666,666/mmg) fire at k2 16fp +2. If rof retained and target not elim, repeat fire. Else target k4 and fire mmg. 2. g3 (9-2,666) fire at k2 6fp -2+2 If k2 previously broke/elim by PFh, fire at "best target". 3. g4 (666) fire at k2 6fp +2 If k2 previously broke/elim by PFh, see Movement Phase. Movement Phase ... 6. g4 (666) am to g3 (conditional move; see PFh #3) Note: The above is just one form of pbem notation. Others ae fine as long as they are readable. What is important here is to identify any conditional moves, and try to keep them simple. If you use a term like "best", you are saying "the best in the judge's opinion" not "the best existing shot that the judge overlooked". 6) Have fun with the first one, and let me know what you think. We can discuss the rules, design decisions, what's next, how it went, scoring, etc., after the results. Please, to keep it fair, don't post any "answers" to the list prior to the end of this "round". Questions in email welcomed anytime. ---------------- Beyond Sitrep #1 ---------------- I have gotten some interesting and fascinating suggestions from the list. Some were even anatomically feasible. A couple of people suggested going through the published modules, not in numerical order, but one per module, then a second one per module, etc. I like this idea. I have a volunteer to design a future sitrep. I had already done one for Mila 18, but it will keep until we're ready. I still haven't decided on a scoring system beyond the raw cvp ranking, but there are a number of possiblities I'm looking at, and I am sure that I'll get some suggestions from the less-mathematically challenged ASLers out there. If we can roll these out smoothly, we could do maybe 12 a year, or more with a little parallelism. At that rate, we'd run out of scenarios in, oh, about 10 or 20 years. Matt Brown ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 1994 11:54:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Neal Ulen Subject: Oddball the Nutball On Wed, 26 Jan 1994, John Appel wrote: > Brent and I must be secret twins. I watched _Kelly's Heros_ the > other week on TNT, and have been pondering the same thing. > > The way I have it figured, Kelly, Joe and Oddball are leaders - > the first two heroic, of course. But what ratings? > Hmmmm...I would say that Oddball is 10-2. But his actions are subject to the 'Nutcase Screwball' rules section. Could anyone besides a psychotic 10-2 leader take a column of tanks behind German lines then call an American engineer unit from a French cafe asking if they have about 60' feet of bridge? Well okay...a Hollywood producer could...but it wouldn't be as fun :). BCNU! ***************************************************************************** * Neal E. Ulen (nealu@crow.csrv.uidaho.edu) * * * * Ninja.. * * You have no voice * a bike of any * * To be heard my son, * other name is * * No one can hear when you're * just a motorcycle. * * Screaming in Digital -Queensryche * * ***************************************************************************** ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 18:27:55 EST Subject: Survey Update (3) I have 103 of approx 265 of you. I will immediately send a copy of the survey to any of you who have deleted it or need another copy. It takes just a few minutes to fill out. There is not a single question requiring you to rate something on a numerical scale! 8-) And, you get the chance to name your favorite ASL scenarios AND 5 favorite games other than ASL. Surely the readers of this list, dedicated mavens of detail and exactitude, will not accept less than a complete picture!? Come on, get them surveys in here! John Foley ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 18:48:19 EST From: krv@eng.tridom.com (Kevin Valerien) Subject: KGP: 19am Greetings, Last Friday we completed the 19am scenario. We play after work on Fridays so it takes us a few sessions to complete a scenario. This gives me a chance to check rules between sessions. :) We had three German players (including me) and 2-3 American players. The German's purchased: I1 Para Inf Pltn x2 I2 SS Inf Pltn x2 I3 SS PzGr Pltn I4 SS Eng Pltn V2 Pz V Sect V7 SPAA Sect HW1 SS MG Pltn M2 SAN+1 The Germans won the scenario by capturing 10 LVPs. Luck shined on the Americans in two ways: the scenario ended after 5.5 turns and the mist cleared for the first couple of turns (Yes, I wasted a snake eyes on our mist change die roll.) We (Germans) suffered 70 CVPs. Mostly halftracks and infantry. Of our 10 PzVs, 8 are ok, one is imobilized, and the last was destroyed (yes he was mine). Of the 8 PzIVs, 5 are ok, 1 imobilized, 1 abandoned in no-man's land, and one destroyed (yes, he was mine too.) We have about 26 of our original 32.5 squads left. Two leaders were lost including a 9-2 killed by a sniper (yes, even the 9-2 was mine.) The Americans suffered 98 CVPs, but about 40% were captured points. They have about 6 squads left and all the AFVs except 1 M8. All their guns were lost to the Germans as well as some equipment (9 MGs, 4 Baz). The German force was split three ways. 40% went down the paved road to Stoumont (my guys). 30% went straight to Roua. 30% swept the hill and headed for the Sanatorium. At the end of our turn 6, I had just taken the last LVP in Stoumont. The Americans still held the Northwest corner. The middle group had just broken through. The Americans still owned one building in Roua, but they were surrounded. The "woods" force had taken the CC18 building which is three hexes away from the sanatorium, but this was the point of a fairly narrow spearhead. Our Stoumont guys headed down the paved road and were delayed by a roadblock. A second roadblock cut the road leading up the hill to the church. An Inf Pltn and an Eng Pltn entered from the edge on turn one to supply early infantry support. We attempted to test all hexes with hts before moving tanks. We found 9 AT minefields. Most were around the south end of Stoumont. The mist cycled for one turn, returning to Extremely heavy for the German turn then going back down one. During this turn I moved a Panther and a Mk IV onto the hill to pressure the church. When the mist went back down the 90L appeared and neither vehicle survived. The 60mm OBA designed to delay the Germans didn't materialize when the field phone was removed on its first contact DR. The Americans left the church when the FT moved into position and the Germans proceeded to chase them through the town. The right flank guys were to sweep along the edge of the woods on the hill eliminating Americans on their way to the Sanatorium. Getting to the Sanatorium was a long shot considering the distance, but that was the plan. This group spent most of its time tripping traps planned for the center group. There were several AT guns set up on the hill pointing back toward Roua. With the mist cleared these would have been deadly, but we managed to find each of them just in time. These troops made it to CC18 on our final turn (just east of the Sanatorium). Given another turn they would probably have take all the buildings just east of the Sanatorium. The advance of our center group was disrupted by some very successful 60mm OBA. (I won't get to try out my HMG transmogrifier. It was SHOCKED and subsequently eliminated by the OBA.) Both SPAAs were assigned to this group for fire support, but they were reluctant to engage after the mist went down and we discovered that most of the AT guns were set up here. Our forces drove the Americans out after closing the range. The Americans had a lot of equipment. They purchased the MG group and got an additional 2 50cals off the jeeps. They kept their AFVs back so only one armoured car was destroyed. It also would have survived if it hadn't bogged going over the wire to get away. The Americans enjoyed excellent leadership having 7 leaders which included 1x9-1 and 3x8-1. We used our halftracks aggressively and that accounted for their 50% loss rate. We used them to search for HIP guys by moving through orchard or ending their movement phase in bypass of buildings. In addition we would drive them into opponents hexes to restrict their fire options. Several found guns, MGs, mines or brave American troops and the halftracks didn't survive the experience. The most successful piece on the board had to be the 90L. It killed a PzIV, a PzV, and 2 halftracks before it malfunctioned. Just say NO to 90Ls. Take care, Kevin --- Kevin Valerien krv@eng.tridom.com ----- From: m91pma@bellatrix.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Scanned counters Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 01:57:28 +0100 (MET) Hi, Neal, I lost your address. If you send me a letter, I'll send you the stuff, OK? ObASL: If someone makes a scenario like the ones made by Jean-Luc, isn't it technically illegal to use scanned counter images and things like that? I have promised Neal some scanned counters, counters I scanned for a scenario I made. I don't think it's very good, and it does have the ASL logo on it (since I can't remove it w/o A&L), and it is in the for of an Arts & Letters document. If anyone is still interested, drop me a line. OK, I guess I can remove the ASL logo from the document, so let's say I promise to do that to avoid any fuss about copyright, shall we? -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 18:27 PST Subject: Re: Scanned counters From: a481@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) > Patrik Manlig writes: > If someone makes a scenario like the ones made by Jean-Luc, isn't it > technically illegal to use scanned counter images and things like that? Isn't it only illegal if you receive money for scenarios with scanned images? -- J.D. Frazer a481@mindlink.bc.ca Editor "The Harn Tongue Twister: Three Shortsword Sheaths" Columbia Games ----- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 94 22:58:37 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Bore Sighting Hi guys, >From the Urgent Bore Sighting Discussion: >>> Does the bore sighting -2 DRM vs infantry apply only during >>> Defensive First Fire Phase or during all fire phases (I believe the >>> relevant rule is 6.44 (not sure on that)). Thanks for your help. >>> >> Yep, C6.44 says the BS -2 DRM vs infantry applies only during First Fire. >> Why? I dunno. >I discovered this a while back, too. Silly, isn't it. Here's a little more background, in case it's still needed. C6.44(89): A MG/IFE non-ordnance attack [EXC: all forms of Residual FP; A8.2, A9.22] vs a unit in the firing weapon's Bore Sighted Location may deduct two from its IFT DR unless using Spraying Fire [EXC: vs. _Infantry_, only such an attack conducted as Defensive First Fire (A8.1) qualifies for this -2 DRM]. The original (1985) version of C6.44 didn't restrict the -2 Bore Sighting DRM for MG/IFE against Infantry to DFF. The '89 Errata version of the rule clearly does. That exception refers to the big clause; it makes no sense to try to apply it to the Spraying Fire part. I don't find this silly. -2 is a whole lot on the IFT. Totally negating the effect of a wooden building to protect against MG fire is pretty extreme. (Let's not get into the -2 and -3 leader thread right now :-> .) It's definitely the rule, unless you've agreed to use only pre-89 rules. Bore Sighting on the To Hit table is less extreme, since it's the same effect as -2 acquisition, which is reasonable. I hate it when I forget to Bore Sight my allowed weapons. Which is almost always. Dave ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:43:40 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Scanned counters J.D. Frazer writes: > Isn't it only illegal if you receive money for scenarios with > scanned images? I'm not a lawyer, but I've seen quite a few copyright discussions and it is my impression that receiving money or not for reproducing things copyrighted by others is entirely irrelevant. Imagine I scanned the whole ASL rule book and put it up for ftp. Wouldn't you think this wrong (morally), whether you could get it for free or not? Of course, the copyright holder might allow you to reproduce something only if you do not earn a profit on it, but that's entirely up to him. This, for example, is the case with my questions & answers list. Bas. ----- From: Jean-Luc.Bechennec@lri.fr Subject: scanned counters Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:28:38 +0100 (MET) Patrick Manlig write: > If someone makes a scenario like the ones made by Jean-Luc, isn't it > technically illegal to use scanned counter images and things like that? Well, i don't know if the counter design is protected by a copyright but i think it is not the case because if a logo may be protected (ie a drawing with letters), a look and feel is not. Anyway, i don't care. Beyond the problem of copyright, there is the interest of TAHGC. I think they don't care if a zine uses scanned counters to publish scenarios because the more ASL is played, the more AH makes benefit. The Wargamers, that is not a zine, published ASL scenarios with ASL counters on them and AH never brought an action with The Wargamer. -- ========================================================================== Jean-Luc Bechennec / / Equipe Architecture des Ordinateurs et ( ( Conception des Circuits Integres \ \ LRI, bat 490 \ \ Tel 33 (1) 69-41-70-91 Universite Paris-Sud ) ) Fax 33 (1) 69-41-65-86 F-91405 ORSAY Cedex / / email jlb@lri.lri.fr ========================================================================== ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 7:19:55 -0500 (EST) From: Wayne Young Subject: Mapboards Many thanks to the replies I recieved about interim mapboard sub- stitution. I agree that they can not be _truly_ substituted, and have a few plans in the works. I nabbed about three or four Perl progs for the PC and the maps - all I have to do is get them running (as opposed to botherering Bas for _that_ many maps). With any luck, I'll have my paws on the boards by the end of Februrary. Again, thanks folks. =) Wayne Young youngwr@kirk.northernc.on.ca "Winter is Nature's way of saying, 'Up yours!'" ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:25:29 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: scanned counters Jean-Luc Bechennec writes: > Patrick Manlig write: >> If someone makes a scenario like the ones made by Jean-Luc, isn't >> it technically illegal to use scanned counter images and things >> like that? > Anyway, i don't care. Beyond the problem of copyright, there > is the interest of TAHGC. I think they don't care if a zine uses > scanned counters to publish scenarios because the more ASL is > played, the more AH makes benefit. But as the affair with my Q&A list has shown this is not the whole issue. There is some legal thingummy that if AH doesn't protect their copyright in every case they somehow lose the right in other cases. Don't ask me for details. I'm not a lawyer and intend to stay that way. Bas. ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 09:19:06 EST From: brad.andrews@cas.org (Brad Andrews) Subject: Re: Scanned counters > Isn't it only illegal if you receive money for scenarios with scanned images? > The money isn't the issue, it is the copyright. I am not sure on the counters, but I know you could not produce an ASL module, even if you gave it away, and still be clean with the law. But given that TAHGC allows (or at least hasn't stopped) the various ASL groups to produce scenarios, I am not sure where the legal balance would fall there. Interesting question. Brad ----- Date: 28 Jan 1994 08:18:15 -0800 From: "Byrnes, Brent" Subject: The Morality of an Index Bas- You said: "Imagine I scanned the whole ASL rule book and put it up for ftp. Wouldn't you think this wrong (morally), whether you could get it for free or not?" That's a great idea - will you send me one? (I did pay for it; Avalon Hill just forgot their promise to update it with new purchases.) If Avalon Hill produced updates to the rulebook (as they advertised upon purchase) and an updated index (which is a given) then the topic would not come up for discussion. When I purchased the "complete ASL rulebook" it was under the understanding that that $50 was for a new and improved system that eliminated the headache of four rulebooks with scribble marks all over deleted rules. Fifty bucks and eight modules later (another $300?) I find myself with the same mixed up, pencil edited rulebook that I had before. I could accept more easily that they refuse to reprint pages of the rulebook IF Avalon Hill would send out an updated index with each module. Would it be immoral or illegal to create my own index? I spent a bunch of money - and I don't have an index. Brent ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 15:34:59 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: The Morality of an Index Byrnes, Brent writes: > Would it be immoral or illegal to create my own index? I spent a > bunch of money - and I don't have an index. As long as it's for private use, you can create whatever you want. (That's not completely true.) As to creating an index and distributing it (the thought has crossed my mind several times), I have no idea about the legality, but in my opinion it wouldn't be immoral. Bas. ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 09:52:12 -0500 From: Stewart R King Subject: Bore Sighting and the ASL Errata > >> Yep, C6.44 says the BS -2 DRM vs infantry applies only during First Fire. > >> Why? I dunno. > > >I discovered this a while back, too. Silly, isn't it. > > Here's a little more background, in case it's still needed. > > C6.44(89): A MG/IFE non-ordnance attack [EXC: all forms of Residual > FP; A8.2, A9.22] vs a unit in the firing weapon's Bore Sighted Location > may deduct two from its IFT DR unless using Spraying Fire [EXC: vs. > _Infantry_, only such an attack conducted as Defensive First Fire (A8.1) > qualifies for this -2 DRM]. > > The original (1985) version of C6.44 didn't restrict the -2 Bore Sighting > DRM for MG/IFE against Infantry to DFF. The '89 Errata version of the > rule clearly does. That exception refers to the big clause; it makes > no sense to try to apply it to the Spraying Fire part. > > I don't find this silly. -2 is a whole lot on the IFT. Totally > negating the effect of a wooden building to protect against MG > fire is pretty extreme. (Let's not get into the -2 and -3 leader > thread right now :-> .) It's definitely the rule, unless you've > agreed to use only pre-89 rules. Bore Sighting on the To Hit > table is less extreme, since it's the same effect as -2 acquisition, > which is reasonable. A -2 converts a mediocre "7" into an impressive "5." That makes Bore Sighting an impressive advantage on either the TH or IFT tables. However, I don't see the point in restricting its application to the DFF phase, and only against Infantry. Why not against Vehicles as well? If the rule is deemed too powerful, why not reduce the DRM to -1? Since DFF is defined as taking place at the same time as Final Fire, and representing the same thing, except vs. moving instead of stationary targets, I just feel that it is silly to bend the system in this manner. Additionally, I don't like using the errata to make major _changes_ in the rules system. This means that rules hawks who have all the Q&A pages and Errata have a major advantage over casual players like myself. It discourages casual players from becoming serious about the game, if important rules frequently change without notice. I played ASL with three friends for several years, using the old rules. When I started going to tournements, I discovered that the rules weren't the same any more. I hope I adjusted with good grace; my opponents would be able to tell you better than I. I enjoy ASL a lot, but this rules lawyering will be the death of me yet! _Clarifications_ in the rules issued via the General are OK, but the rules should only be _changed_ in major particulars through new modules and rules chapters, and those of us who don't have those modules shouldn't be bound to the changed rules in tournement situations. > > I hate it when I forget to Bore Sight my allowed weapons. Which is > almost always. > > Dave ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com > No fooling. You have my sympathies. I usually remember about the first Movement Phase of my opponent's turn. Stewart King ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 10:09:00 EST From: ut00894@volvo.com (Doug Maston) Subject: Scenarios and Copyrights Guys, I was just thinking about some of the comments on scanned counters, and began to wonder about all the existing scenarios that have been published to date. Most of these scenarios have a picture in the upper left-hand corner of the scenario. These pictures have come from books, magazines, and the like. All of which are copyrighted. How many scenario designers have gotten permission to use these pictures? I don't think too many. Is this not a copyright infringement? I'm not a lawyer and have no idea of the answers. How long does a copyright last? Is it perperual, or is there a time limit? Any lawyers out there? Doug Maston ----- Date: 28 Jan 1994 10:08:47 -0800 From: "Byrnes, Brent" Subject: I just want an index Bas- *As long as it's for private use, you can create whatever you want. (That's not completely true.) As to creating an index and distributing it (the thought has crossed my mind several times), I have no idea about the legality, but in my opinion it wouldn't be immoral.* Why should anyone be forced to create their own index? It would be for the good of the game system if their was a comprehensive index. Avalon Hill, when discussing the benefits of this "new and comprehensive" game system eluded to a consistent format for updating the index, table of contents, and the comprehensive and complete rulebook. (That WAS the benefit of purchasing a $50 rulebook, right?) I have purchased each component in the series (except Gung Ho) and I do not have a new index, nor do a have a complete rulebook. Brent ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 11:38:48 EST From: "Matthew E. Brown" Subject: Re: Scenarios and Copyrights >Doug Maston writes: > Most of these scenarios have a picture in the upper left-hand corner >of the scenario. These pictures have come from books, magazines, and >the like. All of which are copyrighted. > How many scenario designers have gotten permission to use these >pictures? I don't think too many. Is this not a copyright infringement? >I'm not a lawyer and have no idea of the answers. I'm no lawyer in the real world sense, but Doug raises an interesting issue. With the original SL and ASL scenarios, I had always figured that the "Kiblerized" pictures were artist's interpretations of battlefield photos, and therefore not copyright violations, as long as the picture itself was not "protected" separately for some reason (trademark or something). Now, however, the recent ones have a definite "scanned" look to them, or a computer-drawn look (bitmapped rather than line drawings), so I wonder. AH has often used stuff like museum pieces on box covers (like the painting on the War and Peace cover or the WS&IM cover, and in each case there is a "permission" line on the cover). It would be interesting to hear why the scenario art is handled differently. Then again, it would have been real funny to see the original SL "Hitdorf on the Rhine" scenario art credited to Novosti from a book on Stalingrad, no? (Note that the HotR remake used a different picture, and the HotR original art re-appeared on an East Front scenario.) Matt Brown ----- From: Gradie Frederick Subject: Re: scanned counters Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 11:51:54 EST Bas writes: > But as the affair with my Q&A list has shown this is not the whole > issue. There is some legal thingummy that if AH doesn't protect their > copyright in every case they somehow lose the right in other cases. > > Don't ask me for details. I'm not a lawyer and intend to stay that > way. I am not a lawyer, but I believe that Bas is correct. My own suggestion is to let TAHGC know what you are doing, especially if you intend to distribute something beyond yourself and you are making copies. Potentially, you could be cutting into TAHGC's revenue stream; but then again you might be performing a valuable service in areas that TAHGC cannot fill. The more KGP (Kampfgruppe Pieper) scenarios there are; the more likely it is that someone will think that they have got to have the module. Though I do not speak for TAHGC, I think that they have a vested interest in a thriving ASL hobbie. New scenarios, Q & A Indexes and other supporting material helps to keep the game system lively, especially when modules like KGP appear to take so long to be delivered. I consider The Avalon Hill Game Company a partner in keeping ASL alive for me to enjoy and for them to make money. Of course, I know that TAHGC wants to make a buck (and KPG was steep), but I know that there is a common interest in the support of the hobby and ASL gaming in particular. - Gradie Frederick (gef@ctt.Bellcore.com) "My opinions are mine alone." ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 12:10:58 -0600 (CST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: Copyright Discussions and Perpetuity It would seem that copyright discussions continue ad nauseum. Maybe we can stop discussing copyright issues in an ASL forum? It's been discussed before to know real conclusion and I don't see that we would be doing anyone any favors by rehashing the whole thing. *-=Carl=-* ----- From: joq@austin.ibm.com (Jack O'Quin) Subject: Re: Scenarios and Copyrights Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 11:45:33 -0600 > With the original SL and ASL scenarios, I had always figured that the > "Kiblerized" pictures were artist's interpretations of battlefield photos, > and therefore not copyright violations, as long as the picture itself was > not "protected" separately for some reason (trademark or something). Now, > however, the recent ones have a definite "scanned" look to them, or a > computer-drawn look (bitmapped rather than line drawings), so I wonder. I think we should give AH the benefit of the doubt on this. Many of the well-known WW 2 photos came from newsreels, propaganda films or other official sources that were probably sort of "public domain" in the first place. Also, any copyright on 50-year-old material is likely to have lapsed by now. Jack O'Quin ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 17:02:32 +0100 From: etxngni@aom.ericsson.se (Nils-Gunnar Nilsson TM/PI 82338 2582) Subject: ASL KIA'd? (and rules changes through Q&A) >Additionally, I don't like using the errata to make major _changes_ in the >rules system. This means that rules hawks who have all the Q&A pages and >Errata have a major advantage over casual players like myself. It >discourages casual players from becoming serious about the game, if >important rules frequently change without notice. I played ASL with three >friends for several years, using the old rules. When I started going to >tournements, I discovered that the rules weren't the same any more. I >hope I adjusted with good grace; my opponents would be able to tell you >better than I. I enjoy ASL a lot, but this rules lawyering will be the >death of me yet! _Clarifications_ in the rules issued via the General are >OK, but the rules should only be _changed_ in major particulars through >new modules and rules chapters, and those of us who don't have those >modules shouldn't be bound to the changed rules in tournement situations Being mostly a lurker in this list I cannot resist supporting the thoughts expressed above. When Avalon Hill _changes_ the rules through Q&A published in the General and in the ASL (bi)Annual, they do the game system a big disfavor. It is especially bad to change the rules in a way that adds complexity ( like BS NA in non DFF vs Infantry ). The poors ASL players brain is already burdened with remembering that Russian 81 MM Mtr may fire _once_ before being dismantled and _once_ after mantling and that the French char B1-bis is critically hit on both a 2 and a 3 when hit from the port side target facing. ASL don't need _more_ complexity. As an experienced ASL player I sometimes meet people who are curious on this game and wants to start play it. Their first question is: "What do I need to start playing this game?". My answer: "The ASL Rule Book and Beyond Valor". Next: "Is that all?" Now the flood comes: "Yes... but you really need to buy boards 1,2,3,4,7,8 and 12, plus Yanks for very common extra rules, the Annuals for errata and rules changes from Q&A and Croix de Guerre for more rules changes and Gung Ho and West of Alamein and Code of Bushido. Oh, and make sure to get the 87 and 89 rules updates in the rulebook." Their lack of enthusiasm after this answer is clear. What else can I say without being dishonest? Sometimes I get the impression that Bob McNamara writes the rules for the small audience of his playtesters, and not for the big number of players who buys the game in a shop and go home to play it. I suppose they are building a market for VASL ( Very Advanced Squad Leader ). I also think there is a tendency to "fix things that isn't broken". ( like the cavalry rules in CdG. ) What do you say? -May the DR goddess always smile upon you with her snake eyes! Nils-Gunnar Nilsson ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 13:20:57 -0500 (EST) From: Timothy Van Sant Subject: Re: I just want an index On 28 Jan 1994, Byrnes, Brent wrote: >[munch] > > Avalon Hill, when discussing the benefits of this "new and comprehensive" > game system eluded to a consistent format for updating the index, table of ^^^^^^ AH eludes when we thought they were alluding. :-) Tim P.S. Nothing personal intended, Brent, I just couldn't help myself.. ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 14:26:17 EST From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) Subject: Copyright Discussions and Perpetuity Perhaps anyone who is interested in the real legal issues should ftp the copyright faq, e.g. from ftp.uu.net in /usenet/news.answers/law/Copyright-FAQ. That answers most of the questions that have been asked here, perhaps not definitively but more so than what has appeared here. David desJardins ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 15:28:16 PST From: jon@netlabs.com (Jonathan Biggar) Subject: Quick question Can a leader in the same location as a Gun modify the TH roll with his leadership factor? Jon ----- Date: Fri, 28 Jan 94 17:31:40 PST From: David van Kan <6600P@NAVPGS.BITNET> Subject: Re: Quick question Jon, >Can a leader in the same location as a Gun modify the TH roll with his >leadership factor? No. The answer is in the section about armor leaders (right, Will?), just were you'd expect to find an answer about leaders and Guns. Dave ----- Subject: Re: Bore Sighting and the ASL Errata From: Petri Juhani Piira Date: Fri, 28 Jan 1994 17:37:34 +0200 > > > >> Yep, C6.44 says the BS -2 DRM vs infantry applies only during First > Additionally, I don't like using the errata to make major _changes_ in the > rules system. This means that rules hawks who have all the Q&A pages and > Errata have a major advantage over casual players like myself. It It is obviously a marketing ploy. Change the rules to force people buy modules/ASL annuals/Generals. > OK, but the rules should only be _changed_ in major particulars through > new modules and rules chapters, and those of us who don't have those > modules shouldn't be bound to the changed rules in tournement situations. Extremely true. It is reasonable to expect that people play with 87 and 89 errata, because these are available to everyone, as a part of the rule book. Anything else must be considered "optional" and used only if both players agree beforehand. No one changes the rules of chess, for instance... Also, if the rules contained errors which were not noticed before the 87 and 89 errata, then it is obvious that these were not errors as such, but opinions different from the current AH ones. A real serious error in chapters C and D would have been noticed in the first 4 years of the game. There was never a need for any errata for the basic rules after the first two sets... take the Cavalry Charge, for instance. The system simulates the real word movement / defensive fire with different types of defensive fire and residual fire, each unit is moved one by one. If that simulation is enough for normal movement for ordinary infantry and vehicles, why cavalry would need impulse movement? It doesn't need it... somebody just decided to make the change... and created compatibility problems. This phenomena is quite recent. Maybe the original designers have quit work with ASL, and new people with different opinions have taken over? Petri Piira ----- Subject: Comprehensive book on German Military Forces Date: Sat, 29 Jan 94 17:27:33 PST From: slin@cisco.com I just picked up a rather interesting book today called, "Handbook on German Military Forces." Apparently it's a facsimile of a document issued by the U.S. War Department in March, 1945. Quoting from the blurb, "The book is a massive compendium of information on every aspect of Hitler's forces. ...the handbook examines German military personnel from the lowest levels to the High Command. It describes the Wehrmacht's administrative structure, unit organization, field tactics, fortification and defense systems, weapons and other equipment, and uniforms and insignia." One of the most valuable sections in the book is the one covering weapons. There are pictures for possibly every piece of ordnance and vehicle present in ASL, including detailed characteristics. Also very fascinating are the detailed illustrations and descriptions on the usage of grenades, mines and radios. There is a _lot_ of information in here. Handbook of German military forces ; with an introduction by Stephen E. Ambrose ISBN 0-8071-1629-7 Copyright 1990 by Louisiana State University Press 636 pages. Steve ----- Subject: PBEM opponent wanted From: Mike van Wonderen Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 17:06:30 +0100 Hello, I'm absolutely new to PBEM ASL and I just recently joined the discussion list. I own Beyond Valor, Yanks, Red Barricades, Hedgerow hell, Streets of Fire and West of Alamein. Untill now I played all of my games ftf, but opponents are hard to find (wouldn't you know). Would any of you be interested in playing an average player with only limited knowledge of tactics? I only have limited experience with AVF's so I would like to play a scenario with a limited number of those (no preferences otherwise). Mike -- mwondere@mvw.hacktic.nl Mike van Wonderen ----- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 13:53:32 CST From: Andrew McCulloh Subject: German military forces handbook. I aggree that the book is fantastic but why does ambrose attach his name to it -- as if the book wouldnt sell by it self -- I suppose that having the intro written be the biggest Eisenhower and Nixon scholar doesn't hurt. Andrew ----- From: j.sylvester2@genie.geis.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 04:59:00 BST Subject: Various questions Well, Another 3 turns of RB brings up another 2 questions Can anyone clarify/help? 1) A5.13 Overstacking: Does the -1 IFT modifier appkly during all phases or just during first fire? It seems that this one gets changed around all the time. Is there a definitive Q&A on this one? If not, I'll be asking for one. 2) When doing the rout phase, does the ATTACKER do _all_ of their rout phase before the DEFENDER does any? Or does the ATTACKER do one step and then the DEFENDER does one step and then the ATTACKER does the next step, etc. etc.? It actually made a difference in the last game concerning voluntary routs. Any comments appreciated, thanks, JOE ----- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 21:43:32 -0500 (EST) From: "Carl D. Fago" Subject: RE: Various questions In message Sun, 30 Jan 94 04:59:00 BST, j.sylvester2@genie.geis.com writes: > 1) A5.13 Overstacking: Does the -1 IFT modifier appkly during all phases > or just during first fire? It seems that this one gets changed around all > the time. Is there a definitive Q&A on this one? If not, I'll be asking > for one. I see the 93b erratta as definitive on this one. "Overstacking penalties apply only to moving units although the presence of..." The "during First Fire" was removed. Note that this clarification and the one for attacking penalties really makes overstacking worth doing for those killer stacks. Don't count on firing during the MPh but wait for the DFPh and you won't be penalized for attacking out of an overstacked location. Likewise, don't move and you won't be penalized by any attack on you. Anyone else think the overstacking penalties ought to be higher? As in continual -1 IFT/TH if firing into or +1 IFT/TH if firing out of? I sure do. > 2) When doing the rout phase, does the ATTACKER do _all_ of their rout > phase before the DEFENDER does any? Or does the ATTACKER do one step and > then the DEFENDER does one step and then the ATTACKER does the next step, > etc. etc.? It actually made a difference in the last game concerning > voluntary routs. Yes, the Attacker routes first. Attacker RtPh, then Defender RtPh. ----- Date: Sun, 30 Jan 1994 20:39:44 -1000 From: pjonke@mano.soest.hawaii.edu (Patrick Jonke) Subject: RE: Various questions >I see the 93b erratta as definitive on this one. "Overstacking penalties >apply only to moving units although the presence of..." The "during First >Fire" was removed. > >Anyone else think the overstacking penalties ought to be higher? As in >continual -1 IFT/TH if firing into or +1 IFT/TH if firing out of? > What?? The phrase "during First Fire" was deleted because a vehicle can be a moving target during other than the MPh (C.9). I agree that the order of presentation of 5.13 and 5.131 is unfortunate, but rest assured that the overstacking penalties apply in every fire phase. In any case, 5.131 is the higher numbered rule, so... Aloha, Patrick ----- Subject: VARIOUS QUESTIONS From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 22:27:00 -0640 j.sylvester2@genie.geis.com asks: > 1) A5.13 Overstacking: Does the -1 IFT modifier appkly > during all phases or just during first fire? It seems that > this one gets changed around all the time. Is there a > definitive Q&A on this one? If not, I'll be asking for > one. Original A5.13: "DEFENSIVE PENALTIES: Overstacking penalties apply only to moving units during First Fire although the presence of non-moving units in the target Location will probably be the determining factor in whether a moving unit is overstacked at the instant of attack." Boy, that is ugly. Fortunately there is a Q&A: A5.13 Add "During the MPh," after "PENALTIES:", and delete "during First Fire" in line 2. {93b} So, through the miracle of cut-and-paste: Final A5.13: "DEFENSIVE PENALTIES: During the Mph overstacking penalties apply only to moving units although the presence of non-moving units in the target Location will probably be the determining factor in whether a moving unit is overstacked at the instant of attack." This, is combination with A5.131, should make it obvious that overstacking penalties apply at all times, but (as you all already knew) only the moving unit(s) are attacked by DFF. A5.131 "All Personnel units ... being attacked in a Location their side has overstacked suffer a -1 To Hit DRM when attacked by ordnance (or a -1 IFT/CC DRM when attacked by any other means) ..." > 2) When doing the rout phase, does the ATTACKER do _all_ of > their rout phase before the DEFENDER does any? Or does the > ATTACKER do one step and then the DEFENDER does one step > and then the ATTACKER does the next step, etc. etc.? It > actually made a difference in the last game concerning > voluntary routs. A10.5 "Broken units must rout away (ATTACKER first--one unit at a time [EXC: Voluntary Rout; A10.711]) ..." Also A3.6 "ROUT PHASE (RtPh): Broken units of both sides may seek cover, with the ATTACKER routing his units first (A10.5)." The ATTACKER routs all of his units first, then the DEFENDER. The part about "one unit at a time" does not mean to alternate, but rather means that stacks of broken units can't be routed together except for a single leader using voluntary rout with a single MMC. Sounds like the Rules Lawyers have their magnifying glasses out, polished, and ready for a heads-down, ASLRB-in-your-face sort of game! So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 09:50:34 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Looking for PBEM opponent I've finally managed to reserve a little space at home to leave a game setup, so I'd like to give PBEM another try. 1) The space fits two regular boards, so I'm afraid that's the limit. 2) I have everything, except a few scenarios from unavailable old Generals. 3) FWIW, my record is 1-1. 4) I have a preference for complicated scenarios. Some possibilities that came to mind are Khamsin or Sea of Tranquility. Any takers? Bas. ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 10:34:46 +0100 From: Bruno NITROSSO Subject: a letter on Annual93b My english may not be excellent given my being a foreigner but something I read on the Annual 93b stroke me as weird. Rex Martin gives his "abect apologies" to somebody he forgot to give proper credit for some contribution. Now, "abject" doesn t sound veru kind to me or is it? Just wondering, -Bruno ----- From: m91pma@student.tdb.uu.se (Patrik Manlig) Subject: Changing of rules... Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 13:47:51 +0100 (MET) Hi, In response to the recent messages about how and when to make changes to the rules in Q&A and such. Yup, making changes in the General or ASL Annual certainly is a bad thing. No argument there. BUT, have AH really done this *extensively*. I don't think so. Not at all. What is a problem sometimes is that when a new set of Q&A is introduced in the Annual or a General, people seem to read them carefully, EXPECTING to find some rule "changes". Result: some misunderstanding occurs. Last time it was the ledership triangle removed from the TH chart, resulting in some people thinking that this automatically meant that leaders could now apply their leadership DRM to guns. (My logic teacher would certainly hate that line of reasoning, BTW) Now it's this thing about overstack and maybe boresighting (I don't remem- ber if that had any bearing on the issue). Again, this is a clarification, not a change. Let's just face it: AH HAVEN'T changed the rules significantly in any Q&A. Yes, they HAVE made some (IMHO) very minor changes, but that's it. Unfor- tunately, there will never be an end to this. Why? Because some people always seem to persist in trying to bend the wording of the rules to their own advantage... No such thing as "good will" or "logic", just: "how could this benefit me?". Sheesh! Before you all whip out your flamethrowers, please try to realize that I am no more fan of having to update the RB all the time than you are. I am just saying that what you're bitchin' about is something that never really happened. This bitching has IMO gone out of proportion. AND, it's certainly not AH's fault that this has to be done anyway. Then there are the new rules in new modules. I don't consider those bad. You're free to disagree, but what did you expect when buying a Rules- BINDER? If it would have been as simple as just adding chapters, booklets would have done as well. I agree that the rules they have "fixed" are not the ones I would like to se "fixes" for, but that doesn't mean the system is fucked up! Why then haven't AH published an updated index? Well, a while ago, Brian explained Bob M's reasoning. An updated index WILL be published, in time. Mr McNamara apparently wants to wait until the whole "basic" system is done. That means the index will include chapters A through G. That's good enough for me. Sure, it would be nice to have a new index with each new module, but you can't get it all. What I would REALLY like is to see the rules totally rewritten to eliminate all fuzzy wordings and all ambiguity. Like that's EVER going to happen. Yeah, sure! -- m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 08:39:36 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Re: a letter on Annual93b Hi, >From my cheesy _Webster's II_ dictionary at work: abject: 1. Of the most contemptible kind: DESPICABLE 2. Of the most miserable kind: WRETCHED Yep, I guess "abject apologies" isn't a very nice term. (Unless you think of "abject" is modifying the error that was made rather than the apology for it.) Don't you love it when people who claim their English isn't very good end up correcting native speakers' grammar? :-> ObASL: Those abject overstacking penalties apply all the time, but I seem to be hit by them much more often than my opponents. ObWhine: After hearing the fate of Tom's Russians in "The Agony of Doom," I think mine could use some new Turn 4 reinforcements. How about a couple of IS-2's? :-> And some rocket artillery. Gotta have rocket artillery. The Great Randomizer. Dave "Incoming overstacked FFMO? Oops." Ripton ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:47:37 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: Bore Sighting and the ASL Errata Petri Juhani Piira writes: > This phenomena is quite recent. Maybe the original designers have > quit work with ASL, and new people with different opinions have > taken over? This is indeed the case. The original rules were written by Don Greenwood, who has now moved to other games. Currently they are made by Bob McNamara. You should take a close look at the difference in writing style between (e.g.) chapters A and G. It's clearly noticeable. Bas. ----- From: duchon@clipper.ens.fr (Philippe Duchon) Subject: Re: Changing of rules... Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 14:59:08 +0100 (MET) [Patrik talking about rules AH's changing of the rules in Q&A] > > Let's just face it: AH HAVEN'T changed the rules significantly in any Q&A. > Yes, they HAVE made some (IMHO) very minor changes, but that's it. Unfor- > tunately, there will never be an end to this. Why? Because some people > always seem to persist in trying to bend the wording of the rules to their > own advantage... No such thing as "good will" or "logic", just: "how could > this benefit me?". Sheesh! Well, I used to think you were right, and toasted a whole lot of German vehicles in my last RB day, using MOL. Then, I read a comment on the list about the MOL rules being changed in the '93a Annual, and checked the thing. Prohibiting MOL usage in SFF/FPF may seem minor to you, but when MOL are the primary anti-tank weapon of over 70 Russian squads, I can assure you that a 1 in 3 chance of a MOL in SFF, right after you failed to kill an AFV with one in DFF, *does* make a difference. And that's *per squad*, if you don't stack. Believe me, the Germans didn't run adjacent to me very happily... Now, this looks like a massive case of A.2. The hordes of PzIII and the one PzIV will remain dead... (Actually MOL wasn't the only cause of armor casualties; the two 45LL AT Guns in fortified 2nd levels were pretty bad too) -- Philippe Duchon duchon@ens.ens.fr ----- Date: 31 Jan 1994 08:00:59 -0800 From: "Byrnes, Brent" Subject: Beating A Dead Horse After my message on Friday about asking AH for an updated index when new modules are released, I reviewed the back of my ASL Rulebook this weekend. I'm sure people are sick of this - but.... Does anyone have any ideas what it says about the game system? I will accept paraphrased guesses, and then this afternoon I will send out what it says verbatim. Hope everyone enjoyed that game of "Counterstroke at Stonne" err.... was there another big game this weekend? Regards, Brent Byrnes ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 10:07:48 EST From: brad.andrews@cas.org (Brad Andrews) Subject: "abject" Well, "abject poverty" means complete, utter poverty. I would think an "abject apology" would mean a complete apology. I am not an english major though. :) Brad ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 10:10:01 EST From: danl@jargon.whoi.edu (Dan Leader) Subject: Looking for old SL Material A while back I posted a request for old SL material, and got a great response. Of course, I commented on my good fortune on the SL discussion list. Now, some other folks who are not on the ASL list are interested in trying to get some stuff, too. If you are willing to part with any of the requested material, please correspond directly with the interested party. I only promised I'd put out the initial advertisement! Hopefully nobody will be put off by this request. Requestor e-mail address wants: Eric Pass epass@nyx.cs.du.edu Series 100 & 200 scenarios Old Generals with SL scenarios David Krause krause@msai.com Series 100 & 200 scenarios Duncan Gibson d.gibson@trl.oz.au Series 200 scenarios Thank you! -Dan Leader danl@jargon.whoi.edu ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 07:26:38 -0800 From: dade_cariaga@rainbow.mentorg.com (Dade Cariaga) Subject: Ambush drm Howdy, howdy, everybody. Here's a question to which I cannot find a definitive answer: What is the ambush drm for a stack containing BOTH stealthy and lax units? What if the stack contains BOTH concealed and unconcealed units? Dade ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 09:33:50 -0600 From: Bryan Milligan Subject: Abject apology Hola, From the Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, First Digital Edition ab7ject \'ab-,jekt\ adj [....] 3: expressing or offered in a humble and often ingratiating spirit (abject flattery) (an abject apology) Mr. Martin was correct. 'Nuff said. Bryan "Abject confusion (def 2b)" Milligan P.S. To Dave Ripton: Would you please reply to this message? Your email sends my machine into convulsions, and I'm trying to figure out why. Thanks. ----- From: Wetzel_Dave/mis_m9@misx9.mis.stratus.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 10:56:36 -0500 Subject: Re: a letter on Annual93b Item Subject: Message text > From my cheesy _Webster's II_ dictionary at work: > > abject: 1. Of the most contemptible kind: DESPICABLE 2. Of the most > miserable kind: WRETCHED > > Yep, I guess "abject apologies" isn't a very nice term. (Unless you > think of "abject" is modifying the error that was made rather than > the apology for it.) Neither, actually. The phrase doesn't mean what the parts add up to. It's idiomatic. It's supposed to be the equivelent of "most humble appologies". It basically says that the speaker is wretched for having made such a terrible mistake and offers appologies. The implication is that the mistake was so big that normal appologies just wouldn't cover it. English; it would be annoying if it weren't so much fun. Dave_Wetzel@vos.stratus.com ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 11:03:36 EST From: desj@ccr-p.ida.org (David desJardins) Subject: Changing of rules... > Then there are the new rules in new modules. I don't consider those bad. > You're free to disagree, but what did you expect when buying a Rules- > BINDER? What I would expect is for AH to publish the new rules and errata separately, for the benefit of people who want to play the game without buying every module. What I would also expect is for them to update the rulebook when new errata comes out, so that people who buy new rulebooks would have all of the current errata included. David desJardins ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 11:22:59 EST From: ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com (Dave Ripton) Subject: Ambush drm Dade asked: >What is the ambush drm for a stack containing BOTH stealthy and lax >units? What if the stack contains BOTH concealed and unconcealed units? They're cumulative. If you've got a stealthy unit, add a +1; if you've got a Lax unit, add a -1. Sometimes this makes it a good idea to leave that 7-0 concealed during a fire phase and risk the cower. This is also why people make such a huff about whether Berserk units are Lax in daytime, since that makes a total of +2 rather than +1. (I would have just made them Lax all the time and removed the extra +1 for being Berserk, but nobody asked me.) Dave "Trying to cause more convulsions in Bryan's machine" ripton@e7sa.epi.syr.ge.com ----- From: duchon@clipper.ens.fr (Philippe Duchon) Subject: Tactiques Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 17:58:55 +0100 (MET) OK guys, since Jean-Luc doesn't seem to do it, I'll post an ad for the latest issue of Tactiques magazine. This one is great ! It has only 4 "normal" scenarios, sure, but there's a whole campaign game, called Stalnie Prostori (which is supposed to mean "Steel Plains", but this is obviously translated twice, from Russian to French to English), based on the Kursk battles. The campaign rules are based on RB rules, with lots of changes due to the different terrain, changing boards, and more dynamical nature of the battle. Each scenario uses 6 "normal" ASL boards, and the southernmost 3 are removed at the end of the first 2 scenarios, and replaced by 3 others in the north, so the complete campaign uses 12 boards, a much larger area than the RB map. The RG groups show interesting units (all Infantry is Elite, and SS for the Germans; vehicles are much cheaper than in RB, and include tough beasts on both sides, including dreadful FT vehicles: OT34 for the Russians, and FT SPW for the Germans). OK, enough. I don't know if I'll be able to play this campaign game, but I'd really like to; with only 4 dates to play, it should be much faster than the RB monsters, and much more manageable. Probably more along the lines of the GT campaign in the '93b Annual, but heavier on armor and movement and with less "exotic" rules. If you can read French (there are, after all, several pages of rules for the campaign game), I strongly advise you to get this Tactiques issue... And of course, in it you'll get the *real* reason to buy Tactiques: if you look closely at the photo from the tournament on page 2, last person on the left rank, you might get an idea of what I look like; and if you look at the drawing at the top of the same page, you'll see what *obviously* represents Jean-Luc Bechennec... -- Philippe Duchon duchon@ens.ens.fr ----- From: grendel@sos.att.com Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 11:46:07 EST Subject: Re: "abject" Goodness, what a tempest! > Well, "abject poverty" means complete, utter poverty. I would think > an "abject apology" would mean a complete apology. Brad is absolutely, definitively correct, even though it looks like he leaves the door open. This usage of abject is perhaps idiomatic, but it is quite clear, or should be. Rex Martin was clearly, clearly extending a humble and utter, complete apology. The variety of connotations for abject do extend from despicable to utterly humble. Since abject is of Latin derivation, it most certainly gained its first english meanings from British English speakers, and I would hazard the guess that the first definition of abject, ie despicable, is the original denotation of the word. The word has taken on different connotations, turning up specifically in the the common phrase of "abject poverty." To be in a state of abject poverty is actually to be in a hideous, wretched state. For some reason, the usage of "abject apology" has taken on a more rhetorical flair, and has helped to lighten the severity of the meaning. That is, "I am most humbly sorry for this." I think that an abject apology in Dicken's time had more of the original sense of wretched and despicable, as in a wealthy person caught for incest or embezzlement who is publically humiliated. Now, an abject apology is more commonly just a very humble apology. Sincerely, but NOT submitted in an abject state, John A. Foley grendel@sos.wh.att.com ./ ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 12:06:29 -0500 (EST) From: John Appel Subject: KGP questions A minor January thaw, after record freezing temperatures. Mood thus set, I trucked on down to the Wargame Depot and picked up KGP on Saturday. After letting Bob Lyman (a lurker here) thrash my SS in _Chappelle St. Anne_ (hint: moving a squad next to a ? with three counters underneath it is just plain *dumb* - SS forgot to wear their Kevlar), we layed out the map, and started making purchases for CG1. Here is my dilema: what to buy as the Americans? Reports posted here seem to indicate that the HW units are bad, as it generally results in supplying the Germans with a stock of .50 cals. Some fortifications seem obvious, but I'm at something of a loss for the rest. Any suggestions are welcome. Please, reply privately, as the Bob-man may be listening.... John John Appel jappel@access.digex.com ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 09:16:34 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Ambush drm Dade: [stuff deleted] > What is the ambush drm for a stack containing BOTH stealthy and lax > units? What if the stack contains BOTH concealed and unconcealed units? Zero. Minus two. "A11.4:...even if only a portion of a player's CC force is qualified to use it." Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- From: Doug Gibson Subject: Two rules questions regarding vehicles Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 9:28:40 PST I am currently playing my first scenario involving vehicles, and a couple questions have come up to which I am not totally sure of the answers. First, does the Case J to hit DRM apply to a vehicle which is fired on immediately after a Start MP which is its first MP expenditure of the turn? Why or why not? My inclination is no, but I'm not sure from the way things are worded. Second, can a turreted vehicle choose to change its VCA at the end of a DFPh in which it does not fire? It clearly can choose to change the TCA, and a turretless vehicle can clearly choose to change the VCA, but I'm not so sure about the turreted vehicle changing the VCA. My inclination is yes, because it could choose to change the VCA if it actually fired, but again, I'm not sure. Thanks in advance, -- -Doug Gibson dag@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu ----- From: mrhodes@mrc-crc.ac.uk (Dr. M. Rhodes) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 16:12:59 +0000 Subject: re Q&A rules changes I disagree with the statement that no major rules changes have occured through the Q&A My understanding (forgive lack of references dont have ASLRB with me at work) used to be that if any hindrance was in los it negated -1 FFMO and prevented you losing concealment along came the q& A (93a I think) and a LOS hindrance doers negate the FFMO bout does not prevent a concealed unit from loosing its "?" when it moves NOw maybe I had been playing it wrong before (it wouldnot be the first time!, or the last) but it made areally major effect on the way I moved my concealed units around so I contend thjere are major changes wich could really catch you out if you did not buy everything . I was also undr the impression that there would be yearly updtes changing all the "bad" pages not lots of Q & A thats my 2 pence worth Michael Rhodes ----- From: Doug Gibson Subject: Re: Changing of rules... Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 9:39:22 PST > What I would REALLY like is to see the rules totally rewritten to > eliminate all fuzzy wordings and all ambiguity. Like that's EVER going > to happen. Yeah, sure! > > -- > m91pma@tdb.uu.se /Patrik Manlig > "Show me the Devil, and I'll show him HELL!" Didn't you even bother to READ the rulebook? It says right in there that the rules are already written as clearly as possible. It's in the ASLRB, so it MUST be true! B^) B^) B^) for the humor impaired (as always), -- -Doug Gibson dag@wiffin.chem.ucla.edu ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 14:11:12 EST From: brian@tpocc.gsfc.nasa.gov (Brian Youse) Subject: Winter Offensive Guys, The pre-regs are streaming in. Only 18 days until Winter Offensive '94, the one of the top east-coast ASL tournaments in the world today! (Ok, east-coast/world today? What kind of geography-deprived individual is writing this?) If you plan on attending WO'94 and have not yet pre-registered, please do so ASAP as the special rate ends in a few days. If you plan on attending, but are paying at the door, plesse drop me a line so I can get some idea of a headcount. Thanks, Brian ----- Subject: COPYRIGHTS From: jonathan.vanmechelen@satalink.com (Jonathan Vanmechelen) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 94 14:43:00 -0640 Howdy, Does anyone have a good reference on copyright? I would like to write an article on night ASL rules, but I wonder whether my description of the rules violates the copyright. Also I would like to produce some reference cards for this and other rules sections. Any reference would obviously be useful, but I would be especially interested in one that dealt with issues that arise with games and/or was written in everyday english. So long, JR --- ~ 1st 1.11 #2895 ~ Foo ----- Date: Mon, 31 Jan 1994 22:11:36 -0800 (PST) From: Brent Pollock Subject: Re: Two rules questions regarding vehicles Doug: [stuff deleted] > First, does the Case J to hit DRM apply to a vehicle which is fired on > immediately after a Start MP which is its first MP expenditure of the turn? > Why or why not? My inclination is no, but I'm not sure from the way things > are worded. No. "C6.1:...which has entered a new hex...or is/was in Motion..." > Second, can a turreted vehicle choose to change its VCA at the end of a DFPh > in which it does not fire? It clearly can choose to change the TCA, and a > turretless vehicle can clearly choose to change the VCA, but I'm not so sure > about the turreted vehicle changing the VCA. My inclination is yes, because > it could choose to change the VCA if it actually fired, but again, I'm not > sure. Yup. [stuff deleted] Share & Enjoy! Brent Pollock ----- Date: Tue, 1 Feb 1994 08:57:04 +0100 From: bas@phys.uva.nl (Bas de Bakker) Subject: Re: re Q&A rules changes M Rhodes writes: > I disagree with the statement that no major rules changes have > occured through the Q&A My understanding (forgive lack of references > dont have ASLRB with me at work) used to be that if any hindrance > was in los it negated -1 FFMO and prevented you losing concealment > along came the q& A (93a I think) and a LOS hindrance doers negate > the FFMO bout does not prevent a concealed unit from loosing its "?" > when it moves NOw maybe I had been playing it wrong before (it > wouldnot be the first time!, or the last) but it made areally major > effect on the way I moved my concealed units around so I contend > thjere are major changes wich could really catch you out if you did > not buy everything . This was not a major rules change, but simply a correction to an error in the wording of that rule. I have never played otherwise than how you play it now. I don't have the rules here, but it has always seemed clear to me from the Concealment Loss/Gain table that you would lose ? when using Non-Assault Movement in LOS, Hindrance or no Hindrance. Bas. ----- From: r.woloszyn@genie.geis.com Date: Sun, 30 Jan 94 13:10:00 BST Subject: Euro-ASL (Ardennes) Having recently heard of ASL News hosting an ASL event in the Ardennes coupled with a battlefield tour, can anyone give me the dates for this event. I have not got my ASL News yet and am very curious. I have to plan my vacation ultra far in advance and this info is needed. Sounds like a real neat idea other than the December weather...mist and more mist if not ground snow!