From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #115 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/115 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 115 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution FW: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution [B7L] Liberator's vaults RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution [B7L] Gareth Signing [B7L] Avon's Ultraworld Costume RE: [B7L] Federation Logo RE: [B7L] fanfic [B7L] Randall and Hopkirk Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 22:19:25 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: In message <01c501bfab03$44346800$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>, Neil Faulkner writes >I >can't see any evolutionary disadvantage in being blond or straight-haired, >so the disappearance of these traits would not be through natural selection >per se, but if these traits are recessive to dark and crinkly hair then they >will become progressively rarer. They tend to be linked to fair skin, and fair skin *does* have adaptive advantage/disadvantage - balancing production of vitamin D against risk of skin cancer. Disrupt the ozone layer, or increase the level of cloud cover, and you may change what level of melanine is appropriate in any area. They never did specify in the aired canon what the exact motive for the domes was... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:39:30 -0400 From: pcarter@pccc.cc.nj.us (Patricia Carter) To: b7 Subject: RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <01BFAAF7.C47047C0@Patricia.pccc.cc.nj.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd have to agree with Allison on this. The notion of race in this way is wholly arbitrary as a way of grouping people and really, from what I've read, has no scientific basis. There is more genetic variation within each so-called race than between different "races", as my college Evolution prof stated repeatedly in his introductory course. Pat C. ---------- From: Alison Page[SMTP:alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 4:38 PM To: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Neil said - > there are at least four recognised human >races - Australoids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids and Negroids. I've got to disagree with you Neil. The idea of four races is just a bit of fiction. The populations of Africa show more genetic diversity than exists between (say) an australian aborigine and a white european, so why lump them all together as one 'race' and split us and the aborigines into two races? You might as well divide people up by blood group, and then there would be four recognised human races: the A-oids, the B-oids, the O-oids and AB-oids. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:40:53 -0400 From: pcarter@pccc.cc.nj.us (Patricia Carter) To: "'Lysator'" Subject: FW: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <01BFAAF7.F5CD9C00@Patricia.pccc.cc.nj.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ---------- From: CARTER, PATRICIA Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 6:39 PM To: b7 Subject: RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution I'd have to agree with Allison on this. The notion of race in this way is wholly arbitrary as a way of grouping people and really, from what I've read, has no scientific basis. There is more genetic variation within each so-called race than between different "races", as my college Evolution prof stated repeatedly in his introductory course. Pat C. ---------- From: Alison Page[SMTP:alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 4:38 PM To: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Neil said - > there are at least four recognised human >races - Australoids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids and Negroids. I've got to disagree with you Neil. The idea of four races is just a bit of fiction. The populations of Africa show more genetic diversity than exists between (say) an australian aborigine and a white european, so why lump them all together as one 'race' and split us and the aborigines into two races? You might as well divide people up by blood group, and then there would be four recognised human races: the A-oids, the B-oids, the O-oids and AB-oids. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:44:32 -0400 From: pcarter@pccc.cc.nj.us (Patricia Carter) To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" , "'Julia Jones'" Cc: b7 Subject: RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <01BFAAF8.78C2B1E0@Patricia.pccc.cc.nj.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A stray thought to Julia's post: Hmm...I'm wondering though when it comes to ozone layer depletion and dangerous UV rays, etc. if the "risk" to "fair-skinned" people is significantly higher than to everyone else. Won't we all eventually burn? Guys -- I really have posted more today than in the two months I've been on this list. I think it's time for me to be quiet. Pat C. ---------- From: Julia Jones[SMTP:julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 5:19 PM To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution In message <01c501bfab03$44346800$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>, Neil Faulkner writes >I >can't see any evolutionary disadvantage in being blond or straight-haired, >so the disappearance of these traits would not be through natural selection >per se, but if these traits are recessive to dark and crinkly hair then they >will become progressively rarer. They tend to be linked to fair skin, and fair skin *does* have adaptive advantage/disadvantage - balancing production of vitamin D against risk of skin cancer. Disrupt the ozone layer, or increase the level of cloud cover, and you may change what level of melanine is appropriate in any area. They never did specify in the aired canon what the exact motive for the domes was... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 23:59:32 +0100 From: "Ariana" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <006701bfab1e$1a14c2c0$0ced07c3@ariana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Hellen Paskaleva > Tiger - > >I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star Trek's > >Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > > Yeah, _I_ do believe so. It is logical - it is unlikely that they are a > dozen "Earth Federations" - it is easier to think, that this is one and the > same governing structure, evolved with the changes in the society. Not a bad theory, actually. Some could even argue that the Star Trek Federation was beginning to go that way by the end of DS9. Imagine what kind of society the ultra-paranoid Section 31 would construct if they took over the Federation. Ariana http://www.alpha.ndirect.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 08:24:57 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <20000421082457.B9187@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 09:05:58AM +0100, Andrew Ellis wrote: > > > >I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star Trek's > >Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > > Funny, I was just talking about this at lunch, and apart from the fact that > they mention actual dates in Star Trek, everything seems to fit better if > you put B7 before ST. > > eg teleport is acquired by the Federation giving rise to transporters > > e.g. replicator imported into the Federation from "Moloch" is used on all > Star Trek ships for food preparation > > e.g. B7 Federation war machine appears to be based (initially) on small > ships (although we get cruisers eventually), and perhaps the "battleship" > Enterprise class evolved from the Federations attempts to produce a > Liberator. You aren't the only person to have said so, actually. Way back in the mists of time, about 1986 or so, the first published version of Ana Dorfstad's "The Pattern of Infinity" came out, in the first four issues of Enarrare'. This version was different to the more polished version which later appeared in the Enarrare' B7 Special, and it had one thing that the later version did not - an epilogue. An epilogue in which it was described how the Federation at the end of the story, turned into the Trek Federation. She got around the date problem by pouncing on the term "New Calendar" and proposing that the New Calendar was not just a reset-the-start calendar, but it was actually a decimalized calendar - each "year" was a hundred days long. After all, living under the domes, what does the length of the planetary year matter, particularly in a galactic empire covering planets which have differing year-lengths anyway? The new revamped Federation simply goes back to the Old Calendar, hence the setting of Trek in the 23rd Century (or whenever it was). It was quite a plausible and amusing epilogue. For example... "The major innovation in their design [of a space drive] was the incorporation of Feldon crystals. The completed engine was, quite naturally, brilliant. The speed delivered by the engine increased, not linearly, but by exponent powers. There were any number of suggestions about what the new drive system should be called - intergalactic drive, ultra-light drive, fluxdrive, superdrive, Cochrane drive, but the name that stuck was the one uttered by some anonymous wit, working on the project team, whose comment was: "With the President and Tarrant so involved in helping us, it ought to be called "warped drive"." Eventually that was shortened to "warp drive" and the actual origin of the name was forgotten. Doctor Cochrane was credited with the invention of the system, and no doubt, he would still have invented it had Avon not interfered. It would simply have taken him several more decades." Or, one of my favourite bits... "Tarrant's grandson was a hero in every sense of the word. Avon would have hated him. History has painted even his mistakes in a flattering light. He was, of course, breathing the very air of heroism in his diapers, and was fed a steady diet of heroes of the old west, heroic presidents such as Abraham Lincoln, heroic relatives such as great-uncle Deeta. In fact one of his favourite books was an old vis-tape of the Teal-Vandor convention in which Deeta met his tragic end. He viewed it so often that there can be little doubt that it was from this episode that he filched the now-famous phrase, "Space... the final frontier..." and made it uniquely associated with himself, his ship, and his crew." As I said, amusing. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Vila: What? Where're we going? Tarrant: To destroy a computer. Vila: Why? Tarrant: It knows too much about me. (Blake's 7: Moloch [C11]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 10:49:22 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: "'Lysator'" Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <002601bfab6e$840a8f20$c1ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Carter wrote: >Thanks for the clarification here on the gene pool thing, but I guess I'd need to see some evidence that "trend" is actually occurring now -- more so than at other times in Evolutionary history -- It definitely is in the Netherlands. >and that the so-called decrease in Blonde hair/Blue Eyed people is, well significant enough that one must comment upon it. I mean, is this like a problem that we should all be concerned about? I'm not, and what gave you the impression that I was? >My impression -- and I could indeed be sadly mistaken -- is that there have always been lots of interracial mixture throughout history -- When peoples meet, they'll mix. I can only speak for the Netherlands, but until half a century ago there was virtually no interracial marriage because there were no other 'races' present. With the increase in travel and migration, the number of interracial relationships is ever growing and it seems a logical assumption that this trend will continue. > I agree with you that there's nothing racist at all about speculating about the heritage of B7 characters. But, I guess I always look to evidence in these cases, if not in the real world, then at least in B7 canon. Is there any evidence that Blake was of mixed African and European ancestry? Are we saying that all people with curly brown hair must have African ancestry? (Well, to the extent that Early Man was found in Africa, then, well, we're all "African," right?) Again, I'm not sure if that's an accurate application of science, rather genetically speaking in terms of the totality of human population or even in terms of evolutionary processes. So then, why must we need to speculate that Roj Blake was half-African or that Avon maybe of Asian ancestry? Because it's fun (to me, anyway). :-) >Sorry to be really obtuse here, and I readily admit that I have limited scientific and historical knowledge, but I don't really see the point of voicing these speculations? Is there a point to them? Or are such speculations "entertaining" in their own right. To me, yes. (Like, for example, slash is to others. I can't see the fun in that, nor any evidence for it in the canon.) >(If the latter, I've definitely missed a lot!) And even if they are pointless to my mind, I honestly don't think this should stop anyone from voicing them either, but hey, I just don't get it, that's all. Stop anyone on this list from voicing an opinion? Not possible! :-) Marian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:25:27 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <20000421112527.21648.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Pat wrote: Blake, yes - Vila says so in Shadow. And okay, Vila is *not* the world's most reliable source of information, but Cally doesn't correct or query it, so presumably it is true. Avon - no, but what *else* could Our Darling be? Seriously, since I'm firmly of the opinion that he and Blake come from a very similar socio-economic background (as does Jenna, who is stated to be 'superior'), and the only certainly-Beta we see (Coser) is most certainly *not* from that background, Avon as Alpha is a reasonable assumption. I also have the feeling there are grades within grades, like upper, upper-middle etc... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 04:31:13 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Liberator's vaults Message-ID: <20000421113114.83898.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Steve Dobson (hi, Steve and welcome!) wrote: It appears to be other resources Blake is looking for ("think what they've got: men, material, information") rather than money - he is planning to *pay* for it with some of the jewels...and from what Vila says: VILA: Pick a pleasure, any pleasure. JENNA: And you'll find it for sale in Space City. BLAKE: If you've got the money. VILA: But we have, we have. They're still rather well-off revolutionaries (not quite so much by Kairos, maybe? since they're all - even Vila - rather enthusiastic about the profits of piracy. Maybe the treasure room got holed over Star One ?) I always liked the idea in one of (I think) Predatrix's stories (or Bryn Lantry's?) that Blake's crew of criminals promptly split the treasure up, then trade jewels between themselves for stuff they get on shore leave (Vila is especially good at this). Which would also explain Blake silently but rather pointedly demanding them back from Avon on Space City - they came from *his* share... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 18:51:36 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FE9CA53@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sally wrote: > Pat wrote: > were Alphas on the show.> > > Avon - no, but place> what *else* could Our Darling be? The way Avon talked about Coser (not bad for a beta grade), led me to suspect that he himself must be a higher (alpha?) grade. After all, he'd hardly sneer like that at his own grade. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:22:33 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Gareth Signing Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Gareth Thomas will be at Tenth Planet in Barking, Essex on Saturday 1st July 2000: 12 - 3pm to promote the launch of MJTV's new CD series, 'The Actor Speaks'. The first CD will feature Gareth talking about Blake's childhood and will also have an episode of the B7 spoof 'Jake's Heaven' as well as other stuff featuring Gareth or written by him. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:19:19 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Avon's Ultraworld Costume Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The highest bid on Avon's costume from Ultraworld is now at 850 pounds. There's a photo of the costume on http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Please feel free to forward to anyone you feel might be interested. I'll probably close the bidding in about a week. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 23:24:06 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FE9CA57@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Gnog wrote: > > > >I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what > >Star Trek's Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > > > >Tiger M > > Funny, I was just talking about this at lunch, and apart from the fact that > they mention actual dates in Star Trek, everything seems to > fit better if you put B7 before ST. > > eg teleport is acquired by the Federation giving rise to transporters > e.g. replicator imported into the Federation from "Moloch" is > used on all Star Trek ships for food preparation > > e.g. B7 Federation war machine appears to be based (initially) on small > ships (although we get cruisers eventually), and perhaps the "battleship" > Enterprise class evolved from the Federations attempts to produce a > Liberator. > > Sorry to be swimming against the stream again. Not at all. The funny thing is that all of these things could just as easily be construed as proof that B7 *is* what happened to the ST Federation after a huge cataclysm (like a war, which was mentioned in the series) that drove everything and everyone apart. The technology that keeps showing up could be seen as old pieces of technology that were kept from way back by small groups, such as the alphas, or the reinvention of old things (which happens all the time, after all). The initially small ships could be explained by a lack of resources caused by that same cataclysm after which they were slowly working their way up to big ships again. It even explains the way other species don't like humanoids much (mentioned at least twice in the series). After all, a galaxy wide war that was bad enough to drive the Federation apart and destroy (the knowlegde of) technology would also have had a very negative effect on those other species even if they weren't involved. Hmm, that could mean that the Andromedans were actually changelings who'd disarmed after their surrender to the federation and then later on had to run like hell to escape the war. Knowing that they'd left in that direction and the memory of the earlier war with them could have been the reason for the Federation defenses at Star One. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 23:24:30 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator Subject: RE: [B7L] fanfic Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FE9CA5A@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" PatPat wrote: > Fanfic also can be a political act, a way to elevate > marginalized minority characters. > > (True Church of Travis, take note!) Hmm? Exactly what do we have to do with Tarrant? Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 22:43:55 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Randall and Hopkirk Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII don'd forget Gareth Thomas is in this Saturday's episode of Randall and Hopkirk on BBC1 Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 19:24:35 EDT From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <6a.211bf0c.26323d33@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 04/21/2000 11:52:22 AM Central Daylight Time, jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl writes: > The way Avon talked about Coser (not bad for a beta grade), led me to > suspect that he himself must be a higher (alpha?) grade. After all, he'd > hardly sneer like that at his own grade. It's also possible that Avon wanted his crewmates to think his grade was higher than it actually was, or perhaps he believed that he was misgraded as a beta, and therefore looks down on others of the same grade. Or maybe he just resented his lower status and took it out on others he considered inferior, including those of his own grade. Just because people may be from the same class in society doesn't mean they don't sneer at each other. Someone (was that you, Ariana?) pointed out a few weeks ago that Avon behaved like a man who thinks he has something to prove. He certainly seemed to have problems with those he perceived as authority figures (Blake). I think he was born into a lower grade, Beta or Gamma, and tested into a higher grade, or that he was actually a Beta and wanted people to think he was an Alpha. Also, IIRC, it's never stated in the series what the grading system is based on. There may be factors other than intelligence or aptitudes which are taken into consideration. As with most things, I think there's room for a wide variety of interpretations. Tiger M -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #115 **************************************