From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #219 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/219 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 219 Today's Topics: [B7L] Avon model and painting [ "Isobel Hamilton" ] Re: [B7L] Redemption [ Jacqueline Thijsen ] [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ "Erica Hayes" ] Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Betty Ragan ] Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} [ Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon model and painting Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Had to write and say that I got my Avon model in the post the other day and the more I paint it the more I love it! It's like having me very own little Avon:o) Re. the flesh painting discussion.. I've always been very picky over that colour, and have found the best way to do it is to use some of the Games Workshop flesh colour (old version is better..) and then add some red, some yellow, and the tone down with white. Oh and then wash/shade with brown! Isobel ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:53:35 -0700 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Redemption Message-ID: <3988C290.84943F99@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve K said: "As it happens, we saw an ideal car to travel to Redemption in, the other day. The number plate was "B7 FAN"." That's weird, I saw B7 JEN at the weekend. Jacqueline asked about credit card payments for Redemption. I'm checking up on that at the moment, but I believe it is possible. I'll get back to you asap. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like ponies" The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:54:13 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Redemption Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon 31 Jul, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote: > At 04:19 31-7-00, Steve Rogerson wrote: > >Hi, just a reminder for anyone thinking of booking for Redemption but > >hasn't yet done so, the discount for early bookers runs out in one > >month's time. If you book before the end of August, the adult weekend > >rate is 40 pound. From 1 September it is 45 pound. > > Early this year there was mention of the possibility of paying by credit > card. I have not yet seen this option appear on the website. Are you > planning to make this possible before we have to pay the higher rate? It's available on the convention web site right now. (There's a small cost for using the cards, but it's the amount we have to pay the credit card company.) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 14:30:09 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Thu 03 Aug, Jessica Taylor wrote: > > Me (Jessica): > > > I was re-watching Pressure Point earlier and I noticed something that I > > > wasn't too sure about. > > > After they got out of the cave, they went straight to the forbidden zone > > > surrounding the entrance and started breaking in, bearing in mind that > > > everyone already told Blake that they were not going on a suicide > >mission, > > > how on earth, without teleport bracelets did they expect to get out. > >They > > > were planning on blowing the place up, weren't they? > > Judith: > >If they'd no bracelets, then they'd nothing to lose. In that case, why not > >go > >for broke? > > I'm not sure that's true, even with Travis and mutoids searching the forests > they've still got to have a better chance at staying alive if they find a > good hiding place than running down into an underground complex and > (provided they don't get caught first) blowing themselves up. I suppose it's > possible that they were planning on using explosives with timers on them but > they would have needed to give themselves a fair bit of time to get out and > away. I always had the impression that sabotaging the computers was more what they had in mind - that's why Avon felt that Blake would need him along. I don't think they had any explosives on them at this point. > > If they hid in the forests or somewhere about they could probably count on > some sort of rescue from Jenna and Cally eventually, But how would they make contact? At least the central base is a recognisable point. Jenna obviously guessed that they would go for Central Control when the teleport bracelets failed to get a response. That's where she went to look for them. She knew her Blake - if they missed this chance, they would never get another. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 16:41:40 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Gareth's Plays Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The date for the theatre trip is 14 October and the plays are Midsummer Night's Dream and Dear Brutus (which is also set on a Midsummer Night). Will those coming let me know their preferred combination of ticket/meal. I'll try and list all the options below. (I can add people in later, but you may end up sitting in a different part of the theatre from everyone else) All welcome regardless of age, gender, native language (I'll do my best to help non-native English speakers follow the plot of Shakespeare), etc. Inclusive packages: top price ticket for both shows + three course meal + programme + interval drinks = 37.95 pounds Middle price ticket for both shows + light meal + Programme + interval drinks = 26.95 pounds Tickets on their own are 8 pounds for the afternoon performance and 17/14/11 pounds for the evening depending on where you sit. You can get a one course meal with a drink and an interval drink for 8.95. (drink seems to equal a glass of wine or a pint or a large soft drink or coffee) If anyone wants to come along on the theatre trip, but is put off by the cost, the theatre has a few very low price seats at the back of the circle which are only a fiver each. The meal is optional, so you could have just the two plays for ten pounds and a snack of some kind which would keep the cost down. It doesn't matter if everyone chooses different meal/ticket combinations as I've spoken to the restaurant and they'll reserve us a table as a group. Last but not least, tell me if you want B+B Saturday night and if you want single or sharing (and if you smoke). I'll try and find something cheap and close to the theatre. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:50:03 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point Message-ID: <002001bffcaa$18994140$a7ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jessica Taylor wrote: > I was re-watching Pressure Point earlier and I noticed something that I wasn't too sure about. After they got out of the cave, they went straight to the forbidden zone surrounding the entrance and started breaking in, bearing in mind that everyone already told Blake that they were not going on a suicide mission, how on earth, without teleport bracelets did they expect to get out. They were planning on blowing the place up, weren't they? < I imagine that, since they were entering the most sophisticated Control Centre in the whole Federation, they were expecting to a) find the button to switch off the automatic defence grid and any anti-teleport shielding devices b) find a transmittor strong enough to send a request to Liberator for spare bracelets c) program the computers to self destruct after five minutes - or how long it would take them to get out. (IIRC they didn't bring any explosives like they did in Star One.) Or they could even tamper with the computers in a way that would enable Orac to make them self destruct once they're safely back aboard. :-) What I find much harder to swallow is that Avon is still prepared to go on with the mission when it has become clear that something is wrong ("He's failed to make contact with Kasabi.") and Blake is holding back information. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 20:09:52 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Redemption Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000802194925.00a6d100@pop3.wish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 17:54 2-8-00, Judith Proctor wrote: >On Mon 31 Jul, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote: > > At 04:19 31-7-00, Steve Rogerson wrote: > > >Hi, just a reminder for anyone thinking of booking for Redemption but > > >hasn't yet done so, the discount for early bookers runs out in one > > >month's time. If you book before the end of August, the adult weekend > > >rate is 40 pound. From 1 September it is 45 pound. > > > > Early this year there was mention of the possibility of paying by credit > > card. I have not yet seen this option appear on the website. Are you > > planning to make this possible before we have to pay the higher rate? > >It's available on the convention web site right now. (There's a small >cost for >using the cards, but it's the amount we have to pay the credit card company.) So it is. I bow my head in shame for not checking just before asking. I'd last checked a few months ago, and when the redemption flyer that came with Zenith didn't mention the option, I just assumed that there'd been no change. But now I'm officially coming to Redemption. Aren't you all glad? I'll have to polish my official FINALACT badge before then. Would that be enough to gain me entrance to the Freedom City party? There is going to be a Freedom City party, isn't there? And when do we get the hotel booking forms? The website says "nearer to the convention date", which is a wee bit vague for my taste. I found that just booking for the convention got me in a vacation mood, so I expect that booking the hotel will be equally fun. Anticipation really is half the fun, isn't it? Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 21:46:52 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Wardrobe room Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed An extremely frivolous observation ... Why is it that Jenna and Avon find the Wardrobe room in Cygnus Alpha, but the other three don't seem to be told about about it until *after* Time Squad? After all, both of them are wearing new (and rather awful) duds all through Time Squad - don't you think Vila at least would notice? (Gan doesn't strike me as the peacock type, and Blake might have More Important Things on his mind.) True, the original intrepid three never noticed the door *to* said room for ages anyway ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 23:10:11 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} Message-ID: <003c01bffe61$cbaf2840$8551063e@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gnog writes: >But just think what would happen if a Tachion travelling at v = 2c >collided with a normal particle of the same mass at rest ! Lysias replies Well, they can't. They're point particles (so the collision doesn't have a physical cross-section), and they don't interact (so it doesn't have an interaction cross-section either). It's just like right-handed neutrinos. :-p Gnog continues Or are they quantum mechanical wavefunctions, or the manifestation in our dimension of a vibrational state of a superstring ..... I would urge you to re phase your rather certain claim "Well they can't" to the more correct "to the limit of current scientific knowledge there is no known mechanism for an interaction to take place", and then, like I requested, imagine that there was a finite collision cross section (by some mechanism as yet undiscovered). Perhaps the FTL Tachion and its STL counterpart (which for conservation of Squirble factor, is an anti matter particle) could form a coupled pair, very much like an exciton, which behaves in a rather distinct way with a strong, destructive, interaction with standard forms of matter. Thus for example.... In a Sci-Fi universe, where FTL travel is possible, it must be possible to break a few of todays physical laws. So to allow FTL travel, a drive unit will gather together anti matter STL tachions, form tachion excitons by capturing FTL techions and excerpt a significant force during the controlled interaction. The nature of the tachion exciton (texton from now on) produces a distortion of certain dimensions, in particular in the field of human consciousness, time. This is similar to the distortion of space time in general relativity by the presence of mass. Hence the results of the texton drive are often referred to a time distortion, although this is a great simplification, and only occurs for significant concentrations of textons. Whilst Squirbles law therefore allows the transport of people, spaceships and messages at FTL speeds, in the absence of a strong texton field, Squirbles law approximates relativistic general relativity, which in turn, for practical distances, resembles normality. Clearly, any technology used for propulsion could also be used as a weapon (eg an oar), and the tachion funnel makes good use of the Bose-Einstien condensation of textons when subject to strong gravitational confinement, such as that found in neutron star material. The non-linear propagation through the condensate of probability wave functions allows for the controlled emission of chirped texton pulses, with an overall FTL velocity, but the FTL Tachion trailing behind its STL partners. The weak interaction of such chirped texton pulses in the absence of a strong gravitation field (such as the field produced by a grown human) ensure that the pulse propagates with no attenuation and negligible broadening over vast distances. However, once such a field is encountered, the texton pulse chirp is destroyed, and the normal texton interaction with matter occurs, often with devastating results. Late 20th century government researchers observed this phenomena from spontaneously generated texton pulses in the region of the Horsehead Nebula. The results were publicly dismissed as spontaneous human combustion. In order to refute this argument, its no good saying that textons do not exist, you must either spot the inconsistency in the argument (there is one), or show how the proposed theoretical treatment of Squirbles law does not, in the limit of no textons, predict reality as we know it. Or finally, provide experimental evidence, from the series, that refutes a prediction of the law. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 23:13:08 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} Message-ID: <003d01bffe61$ccec8a40$8551063e@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit However, it is possible to write very good SF in an alternate universe with different physical laws. It wouldn't be very easy to do, though - working out all the consequences would give you a heck of a headache. -- Lysias As my previous post indicates, you can get a really good headache restricting yourself to control of exotic particles and / or high energies. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 23:15:56 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit Message-ID: <003e01bffe61$cdbf1c80$8551063e@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Gnog wrote: >> 5 years later, Servalan finally traces Avon and arrives at XK-72 >accompanied >> by the 5th legion, a modest escort for the only galactic president to ever >> leave the solar system. Egrorian traces her movements and tests his funnel. > >That's a lovely little story Gnog. I think you're developing a tendency to >write fanfic. AARGGH ! > >BTW, Servalan left the solar system fairly regularly. In fact, I'm not even >sure that Space Command HQ (the doughnut as Ika calls it) was even in the >same solar system as Earth. > When I said president Servalan, I meant to say Peacetime President Servalan, rather than Supreme Commander, expected to inspect the fleet and have a base convenient for the purpose (eg Hawaii or Portsmouth or.....), Servalan. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:32:52 +0100 From: "Pat Sumner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} Message-ID: <00f401bffcd1$b411e7e0$5116893e@s5e8f3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit May I be the first to nominate Gnog as the official Orac for Freedom City? Wildean ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 20:02:58 EDT From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > May I be the first to nominate Gnog as the official Orac for Freedom > City? That'd be a little hard to do, since Gnog isn't on Freedom City. ;-) Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 01:16:25 +0100 From: "Pat Sumner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} Message-ID: <015301bffce0$1347a700$5116893e@s5e8f3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Sent: 3 August 2000 1:02 Wildean said: > > May I be the first to nominate Gnog as the official Orac for Freedom > > City? and Tiger M replied: > That'd be a little hard to do, since Gnog isn't on Freedom City. ;-) That's true. That's very true. I was looking at my email address at the top of the screen (pat@freedomcity.fsnet.co.uk) rather than that little box marked "To:" Sorry about that. Wildean (tired and embarrased) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 17:34:56 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #218 Message-ID: <3988BE2F.314A@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Calle? Something very strange has happened to the Lyst. I get the digest, which shows there should be about 28 posts included. There were, in fact, 7 messages within. ..... (and sorry to include this OT thing, but since many people were intrigued by the Avon=Snape comparability... I've begun some fanfic work starting with Snape as a 3rd year at Hogwarts, he won't be portrayed as an Avon avatar by any means, but I think some of you may be interested in this fic. Anyone who would like this, I will email each chapter as finished to. Each chapter is a complete scene. Email me off list, of course) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 14:11:16 EST From: "Erica Hayes" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Slave and Thinking Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Greetings, I was thinking about the computer Slave (as you do) and how he consistently refuses to do anything creative. He responds to instructions and occasionally offers information without being asked - the blister force wall in Stardrive, for one. Pretty much the only thing he won't do when asked is offer an opinion, expectation, extrapolation, etc.. I know this has been discussed before but does anyone think Slave is self-aware? Throughout series 4 he uses the phrase "I think" a few times, though maybe in the sense of "I reckon" or "I calculate". But in Rescue he says, "Thought is beyond my humble capacities". If that's true, then how can he 'know' that? If he can't 'think', how can he comprehend the concept of thought? OTOH, can a machine that insists it is one pass the Turing test for AI? And if it's not true, why would he say it? If he does 'think', he can't not know about it by definition. If, OTOH, he's lying, what's his motivation? Dorian's reply in Rescue ("True") always sounded to me more like an insult than a simple statement of fact, ie Dorian knew Slave *could* think (because he created him) and was just abusing him for being stupid, or more likely out of habit. As a whole, Dorian's behaviour in the episode suggests that he treats Slave like an idiot, but a sentient idiot nonetheless. Or - and perhaps this is more accurate - like an idiot he *wishes* was sentient. He persists in asking Slave for opinions (which would seem a strange thing to do if he knew that Slave couldn't give one) and each time he gets a similar denial. It's like he's performing the same test over and over, hoping for a different result - insanity, anyone? :) Maybe Slave frustrates Dorian because Slave is a symbol of his failure, like the unfinished teleport system. His aim was to create an AI and he never quite made it. OTOH it's possible that Slave is sentient and is dissembling for reasons of his own. After all, Dorian has had two hundred years to design his ideal flight computer and Slave is the best he can come up with? Not likely. But what could Slave's motivation be? The part in Blake where Slave calls Tarrant by his name always bugs me, too. In light of the above I can't think of a satisfactory explanation for it. Except as a plot device so Blake will know who Tarrant is, I suppose, but that's just not in the spirit of things, is it? Does anyone have any ideas? Erica. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2000 23:15:38 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking Message-ID: <3988FFFA.5C28E222@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Erica Hayes wrote: > I know this has been > discussed before but does anyone think Slave is self-aware? I'm inclined to think so, but then I tend to go in heavily for thinking of SFnal computers as sentient if there's any question about it at all. I'm quite solidly convinced that Orac is sentient, and also regard Zen as sentient (his dying lines in "Terminal" convince me he was self-aware, if nothing else does). OTOH, I think I'd almost *prefer* to think of Slave as non-sentient, because otherwise I feel just too damn sorry for him. > Throughout series 4 he uses the phrase "I think" a few times, though maybe > in the sense of "I reckon" or "I calculate". But in Rescue he says, "Thought > is beyond my humble capacities". > > If that's true, then how can he 'know' that? If he can't 'think', how can he > comprehend the concept of thought? OTOH, can a machine that insists it is > one pass the Turing test for AI? > > And if it's not true, why would he say it? If he does 'think', he can't not > know about it by definition. If, OTOH, he's lying, what's his motivation? Beacuse that's how Dorian programmed him to speak, is my take on it. Dorian, being the egotistical freak that he was, really *liked* all that grovelling, self-deprecating stuff. I guess it fed his own sense of superiority or something to have this machine acting all inferior to him (even if he was the one who built it). > Dorian's reply in Rescue ("True") always sounded to me more like an insult > than a simple statement of fact, ie Dorian knew Slave *could* think (because > he created him) and was just abusing him for being stupid, or more likely > out of habit. Or because he enjoys abusing things. Which is why he's programmed Slave in such a way that he *invites* abuse. Personally, I find the whole thing disgusting (which is probably why I've never much liked Slave as a character). But disgusting and Dorian are *supposed* to go together. (The fact that *Avon* seemed to kind of like it, too, bothers me rather more...) > Or - and perhaps this is more accurate - like an idiot he *wishes* was > sentient. He persists in asking Slave for opinions (which would seem a > strange thing to do if he knew that Slave couldn't give one) and each time > he gets a similar denial. It's like he's performing the same test over and > over, hoping for a different result - insanity, anyone? :) Maybe Slave > frustrates Dorian because Slave is a symbol of his failure, like the > unfinished teleport system. His aim was to create an AI and he never quite > made it. That's not a bad theory, though. > The part in Blake where Slave calls Tarrant by his name always bugs me, too. > In light of the above I can't think of a satisfactory explanation for it. > Except as a plot device so Blake will know who Tarrant is, I suppose, but > that's just not in the spirit of things, is it? > > Does anyone have any ideas? Well, Slave knew he was probably dying, so if he *had* been putting on an act for some reason of his own, he might have just decided that there was no point in keeping it up. Alternate possibilities? Maybe his programming was damaged in the crash. Or (the one I prefer), it was something of Slave's "deeper" personality, beyond that programmed-to-grovel thing, coming out in the moment of extremity. Much like Zen's use of the word "I." Personally, I find it rather touching, an acknowledgement of Tarrant as an individual person, not just as yet another generic human that Slave is programmed to grovel to. -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Aug 2000 23:35:35 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} Message-ID: In message <003c01bffe61$cbaf2840$8551063e@leanet>, Andrew Ellis writes >Late 20th >century government researchers observed this phenomena from spontaneously >generated texton pulses in the region of the Horsehead Nebula. The results >were publicly dismissed as spontaneous human combustion. *Wonderful* technobabble... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 09:40:08 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Model of Servalan. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Helen wrote: whereas the Soolin model will be much more simple. We can have any colour outfit we like as long as it's grey ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 12:09:05 +0100 From: Alison Page To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C6CC@BRAMLEY> Content-Type: text/plain Hi Erica, what an excellent posting. It's a very interesting area. >>Slave consistently refuses to do anything creative. He responds to instructions and occasionally offers information without being asked. Pretty much the only thing he won't do when asked is offer an opinion, expectation, extrapolation, etc.. << I was going to make a flip comment about 'sounds like some people I know'. Then it occurred to me that Slave's motive might be the same as it is for people who don't like to offer an opinion. People who feel powerless, who lack confidence, and who expect that they won't be listened to, often seem to shut down that whole side of their character. It isn't as if they privately have strong opinions, but are fuming because they can't express them. That is the case sometimes of course, but other people seem to protect themselves by ceasing to even have any expectations. And it must be confessed that this probably makes life easier for them. >>I know this has been discussed before but does anyone think Slave is self-aware? Throughout series 4 he uses the phrase "I think" a few times, though maybe in the sense of "I reckon" or "I calculate". But in Rescue he says, "Thought is beyond my humble capacities". If that's true, then how can he 'know' that? If he can't 'think', how can he comprehend the concept of thought? OTOH, can a machine that insists it is one pass the Turing test for AI? And if it's not true, why would he say it? If he does 'think', he can't not know about it by definition. If, OTOH, he's lying, what's his motivation? << Much as I like and admire Alan Turing I think his test is very flawed. It seems to me that an AI could be self-aware, while responding very differently from a human being to questioning. On the other hand a computer could be programmed to respond like a human being, without being self-aware. I could set up my computer to say 'Thought is beyond my humble capacities'. This wouldn't tell me anything about whether it understood the concept of thought. Well, I kind of presume it doesn't because it is only a Pentium II :-) Anyway, once again, thanks for bringing the subject up. I am only engaging with it because I am interested, and I hope this doesn't sound too argumentative. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 13:03:01 +0100 (BST) From: Iain Coleman To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 3 Aug 2000, Alison Page wrote: > Much as I like and admire Alan Turing I think his test is very flawed. It > seems to me that an AI could be self-aware, while responding very > differently from a human being to questioning. On the other hand a computer > could be programmed to respond like a human being, without being self-aware. > I could set up my computer to say 'Thought is beyond my humble capacities'. > This wouldn't tell me anything about whether it understood the concept of > thought. Well, I kind of presume it doesn't because it is only a Pentium II I don't agree with your assessment of the Turing test, Alison. I think it's a clever way of sidestepping the extremely difficult problem of defining intelligence in general. We may not know what intelligence is, in any rigorous sense, but we happily ascribe intelligence and self-awareness to human beings. The Turing test simply says that any machine that can appear intelligent in the same way that a human does should be considered intelligent. I also think that you're underestimating how hard it is to simply program a machine to mimic human responses. Any machine which responds to tricky questions with lines like 'thought is beyond my humble capacities' will fail the Turing test in short order. It's true that one could imagine some very alien machine intelligence that can't pass the Turing test. However, I don't think the test makes any claims about the intelligence or otherwise of entities which fail it, only about those which pass it. Iain -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #219 **************************************