From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #286 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/286 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 286 Today's Topics: Outside [was Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Ru [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ] [B7L] Re: Fantasy [ Steve Rogerson ] [B7L] Androids [ Andrew Williams ] Re: [[B7L] Androids] [ Jacqui Speel To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Outside [was Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question)] Message-ID: <200010112002_MC2-B69F-63CC@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Fiona wrote: >It does square for me. Ship them off to other planets to do their NS. = ... >Frankly, I fail to see how the Federation can maintain the vast = >numbers of blackshirts we see *without* NS. National service for the people they want to do national service, fine. = But not for top grade types. The Varons seem to make the situation fairl= y clear: MAJA: I've never been Outside before. VARON: I have, years ago. I didn't like it much; it's very strange. If they were familiar with being in the open on other planets, they'd discuss it in terms of how it resembled/differed from other planets. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 01:20:13 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Fantasy Message-ID: <39E511CC.393D9944@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet wrote > Iain wrote: > >when I was a little boy with a cute button nose > >I really wanted to be Doctor Who. > > Now I think about it, Iain as Dr Who makes perfect sense... Is this going > to turn back into a recasting thread? I wanted to be a companion. Living in the Tardis seemed cool. But then again, I thought that way about the Liberator. Never wanted to be Blake or Dr Who though. Just wanted to be me in those environments. -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:20:04 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re:Avon in the kitchen (with books) Message-ID: <39E511C4.7532@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >For myself, > >pomegranates were preferred over apples, but Granny Smith apples > >definitely ranked up there. > > You can't eat pomegranates while reading a book unless you don't mind > the pages turning pink. While I can visualise scenarios where this might > indeed be the case with Avon, they belong on The Other List. > -- > Julia Jones Maybe he reads e-books with a wipe-clean screen? Or, in keeping with his treatment of people-- he treats the ones he loves most very badly (I certainly did!). Reading in the bathtub, or while eating fruit are good ways of enjoying the experience of reading while ruining the paper. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 13:44:54 +1000 From: Andrew Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Androids Message-ID: <4103E830BB67D211877400A0247B635E34E1B4@dialup49.actonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Julia wondered: >I'm somewhat curious as to why B7 went with the idea of sentient >*computers* rather than androids, as regular characters. I think the Federation have realised that the only value in making a machine shaped like a human being is in order to deceive others (as in the case of Vinni & Avalon). If you want a machine for other purposes, eg heavy lifting then giving it a human form would be a hindrance. The other androids in the series were Muller's creation and the abysmal one in Volcano. Bring back Metal Mickey (boogie boogie!)! As for the AI, the Federation did not seem to be that good at it; at least not until Games. Zen was the product of an alien civilisation, Orac was the work of a genius, Slave was made by Dorian (who had apparently talked to Ensor years before, so I assume this was about Slave[*]), and then we get Gambit. Up until then the Federation computers are along the lines of the house computer in Traitor and the judgement computer in Trial. Andrew. [*] I think Dorian exploited people for their knowledge. He probably latched on to Soolin in order to develop the clip guns, and his previous partners for various other aspects of Scorpio and Xenon base. He used the Seska to get a teleport, but wasn't bright enough to realise that it was a tele-ergotron. Since we know he spoke to Ensor, if we assume it was to get info for creating Slave, then this means Orac could be related to Slave. Wouldn't Orac hate that! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:35:38 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] you can't get there from here Message-ID: <000f01c03414$4a480cc0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alison Page > I have just been reading an article in Interzone Good grief, is that still going? Haven't seen a copy for years. > by Paul Brazier about the > differences between SF and fantasy (as they say 'small world'; 'big > project'). Anyway my header line is his 'test' to distinguish the two > genres, which I think works quite well: if you 'can't get there from here' > it is fantasy. If you (however tenuously) can it's SF. Hey, it works for me. And my first reaction was: Bloody brilliant! But what about Elidor? What about Donaldson's Land? Thomas Covenant, Linden Avery and Hile Troy got 'there' from 'here', so does that make it SF? Or is it their ability to get there from here that makes it fantasy? > I wonder if people are similarly divided as to whether you can 'get to B7 > from here'. That is, does B7 plausibly intersect, at least potentially, with > our reality or not? To me it certainly does. > > Finally, Brazier extrapolates from this one question (can you get there from > here) to what it is that makes SF or fantasy valuable. And I think his > answer is quite a good one, and also applies to B7. For fantasy he says 'if > you can't get there from here then the story has to work by allegory, > parallelism, or recognition of the similarity between elements of the story > and our own true lives.' whereas 'The true nature and end of SF appears to > be transcendence'. > > So fantasy begins with no anchor in our own lives, but builds a bridge back > to us through the truthfulness (hopefully) of its character interaction. To > me this describes quite well the way in which many fans appreciate B7. Myth, > fantasy and character relationships. > > While SF starts (hopefully) with some grounding in the 'reality' we live in, > but then takes us far far away from the here and now, while keeping a kind > of realism intact. And that's the way that I like B7. I'm not saying that > way of liking is better though. I get the impression, rightly or wrongly, that some fans at least just don't care whether B7 is fantasy or SF. Which gets right up the noses of sods like me who do care, and rather strongly. Still, I spose I get up their noses too, for exactly the same reason. That's cool by me, I've always wanted to be a booger. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:15:36 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <001101c03414$4c473820$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dana Shilling > I don't think Jenna (or Servalan, for that matter) really even like > food very much. I REALLY hate people like that. Just in case you needed one, you now have a reason to really hate me. Though quite how a disinterest in food warrants such antipathy is beyond me. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 07:22:53 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Travis phone home! Message-ID: <002701c03415$b9dd0080$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jacqui Speel >How did Travis get in touch with the Andromedans before he got to Star One? I covered this in Wit and Wisdom of the Dead, in Star Three. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:18:41 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] you can't get there from here Message-ID: <39E565D0.F17C09BA@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison, Neil: > > by Paul Brazier about the > > differences between SF and fantasy (as they say 'small world'; 'big > > project'). Anyway my header line is his 'test' to distinguish the two > > genres, which I think works quite well: if you 'can't get there from here' > > it is fantasy. If you (however tenuously) can it's SF. Hey, it works for > me. > > And my first reaction was: Bloody brilliant! Yes, I think it works quite well if you want to divide all speculative fiction into _just_ science fiction or fantasy. Whether that's the most useful division depends, I suppose, on your purposes. > But what about Elidor? What about Donaldson's Land? Thomas Covenant, > Linden Avery and Hile Troy got 'there' from 'here', so does that make it SF? > Or is it their ability to get there from here that makes it fantasy? Maybe Alison can clarify from the article, but I get the impression it's more whether our society could give rise to the one in the story (or it could give rise to ours) - that would be SF. The Thomas Covenant books would be fantasy. > > I wonder if people are similarly divided as to whether you can 'get to B7 > > from here'. That is, does B7 plausibly intersect, at least potentially, > with > > our reality or not? > > To me it certainly does. Yes, by that definition, B7 is SF. Ben Bova's definition is: SF = speculative fiction (covering science fiction, fantasy, some horror, and several other subgenres dealt with in publishing as SF), science fiction = inextricable from the technology (hard SF), and sci-fi = schlocky Hollywood-type stuff. By this definition B7 is SF but only occasionally science fiction. I'll admit to being partial to the idea of SF as speculative fiction; it seems like a more realistic definition - less open to interpretation. > Still, I spose I get up their noses too, for exactly the same reason. > That's cool by me, I've always wanted to be a booger. And I'm sure you always have been, dear. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 00:24:06 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <39E56715.B5FC7CFB@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia Jones wrote: > Yes, this is what I find curious. There are self-aware androids in the > series - Vinnie being so good at the Turing test that it appears he > himself was not aware of not being human - but the *regular* characters > who are AIs come in a physical form that we'd call computer, rather than > robot. And some of the one-off characters are also self-aware computers. Possibly any androids that could pass as human had been outlawed, since the ones we saw (Vinni, Avalon) were used for nefarious purposes by Travis and Servalan; in fact perhaps the public at large weren't meant to be aware that such things were possible. Such androids could be extremely useful for surveillance and infiltration; there has been much SF written about the particular problems caused by such sophisticated simulation of humans. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 09:51:40 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] you can't get there from here Message-ID: <009101c03429$c5359320$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mistral said - >Maybe Alison can clarify from the article, but I get the impression it's >more whether our society could give rise to the one in the story (or it >could give rise to ours) - that would be SF. The Thomas Covenant >books would be fantasy. The writer uses the example of 'little, big' which I haven't read. The protagonist of that apparently travels to 'fairy land', but as this is a one-off journey it still counts as fantasy. Fairyland doesn't otherwise intersect with our world in any meaningful way. So, Covenant, yes. Just thought I'd mention that he goes on to praise Mary gentle's new book 'Ash' to the skies, saying that it combines the very best of fantasy, SF and historical realism. Sorry this is O/T but thought people might be interested. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 11:01:18 +0200 From: Natasa Tucev To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-Id: <200010120901.LAA15002@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ellynne suggested some deities which the Liberator crew were likely to favour: > >Cally: Athena and Vesta/Hestia Or Kali, as her name suggests. >Blake: Nemesis? Andraste? Mars Vindicator? All those Greek heroes who >inevitably bring the disaster they were trying to prevent down on their >heads? Again, as the name suggests, this could be one of the deities created by Billy Blake. Most likely Los (Freedom), whose principal enemy is Urizen (law and order, encompassed Universe). If Olag is a variant of Oleg, Gan could be worshipping one of Slavic deities. Possibly Volos, a one-eyed giant and protector of herds, and reputedly not a very bright deity. Whereas Zen is obviously a Buddhist. Natasa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 02:27:55 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: [B7L] Time Distort #1 Message-ID: <39E5841A.7FDB57C@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just gotten a used copy of Time Distort #1 today. Travis II fans should look for this one; it has Travis in his Gambit hat on the cover and a very nice portrait inside. I haven't done more than glance at the stories but he also seems to appear prominently in at least one of them - the author gave him the first name of Kristoff. (There are lots of illustrations of other characters as well - the usuals, plus Carnell and Jarvik; but the Travis IIs are far and away the best.) Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 19:57:07 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Androids (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy) Message-ID: <20001012195707.D25502@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Oct 12, 2000 at 12:24:06AM -0700, mistral@centurytel.net wrote: > > Possibly any androids that could pass as human had been outlawed, > since the ones we saw (Vinni, Avalon) were used for nefarious > purposes by Travis and Servalan; in fact perhaps the public at large > weren't meant to be aware that such things were possible. Such > androids could be extremely useful for surveillance and infiltration; > there has been much SF written about the particular problems caused > by such sophisticated simulation of humans. The only problem with that idea is that the people creating the android in Project Avalon seem pretty blaze' about the whole thing, as if it isn't that strange, uncommon or difficult. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Was that survey unwittingly involved in some kind of experiment?" -- Nathan Spring (Star Cops: In Warm Blood) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | \_.--.*/ | v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:56:09 -0500 From: Yvonne Beever To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Threads through Infinity zine Message-ID: <39E61758.954C29E8@pobox.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, I don't suppose anyone has an extra copy of Threads through Infinity lying around they'd care to sell? Thanks...! -- Yvonne Beever 96 M "Deacon Blues" lemur@pobox.com "Time is an illusion; lunchtime, doubly so"--Ford Prefect ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 00 15:55:52 PDT From: Jacqui Speel To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [[B7L] Androids] Message-ID: <20001012225552.9902.qmail@www0v.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It all depends when Dorian created Slave (and as he was around for two centuries, perhaps he had some pre-Tariel cell computers sitting around. = He would also possibly have seen churches in action (collating with Blake= 's remark to Gan about the ruins of the church on Earth) Zen was the product of an alien civilisation, Orac was the work of a genius, Slave was made by Dorian (who had apparently talked to Ensor years before, so I assume this was about Slave[*]), and t= hen we get Gambit. Up until then the Federation computers are along the line= s of the house computer in Traitor and the judgement computer in Trial. = ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ Date: 12 Oct 00 15:59:44 PDT From: Jacqui Speel To: Subject: [B7L] ways of keeping orac quiet Message-ID: <20001012225944.925.qmail@ww181.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 1) Tell him to read 'Finnegan's Wake' to the -very end- and then translat= e it (into any language) = 2) Paradoxes and why 'I am lying' not always one (and who would -not- say= 'je suis Blake'?) 3)Polylingual languages Scrabble - words have to mean something in two different languages (my 'invention') 4) Palindromes, anagrams and other word games. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 20:30:26 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] B7 gods Message-ID: <200010122030_MC2-B6C7-30DA@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Ellynne wrote: >would Avon favor Eris, goddess of strife, or the = >Erinyes, goddesses of retribution? Could we make = >anything out of their other name, eumenides, the = >kindly ones, in relation to aspects of himself he = >doesn't like to admit? = Well, I'm happy to tackle the Greek pantheon. Avon's a difficult one, li= ke Blake; he himself seems closer to a tragic hero, and I'm not sure either = of them is really a theist. But I'd be prepared to argue a case for Hephaestus, too often dismissed as a mere blacksmith (like a mere comp tech). Homer reveals that H's work includes robotics (he makes golden handmaidens, who have intelligence and the power of speech, and can be trained to perform various tasks). This may not actually be one of Avon'= s specialities, but it does indicate that Hephaestus is a technological genius. He also has an angst-ridden private life (rejected by his mother= , thrown out of heaven, betrayed by his wife). >Vila: Dionysius and Bacchus, no question. No, no, Hermes. Patron god of thieves, who started stealing things from birth. >Dayna: Diana, naturally. If you don't mind me calling her Artemis. The princess put me off the other name. >Tarrant: Skip classical, go with Thor. I think he's more like Apollo (brighter than Thor), though this may be a matter of personal distaste. And he'd probably know something about the history of spacecraft, so might like the link with the 20th century American space programme. >Cally: Athena and Vesta/Hestia Athene... possible. A war goddess, among her many accomplishments, so fi= ts the guerrilla role. >Jenna: Ishtar or maybe an Incan goddess warrior goddess = >whose name I'm forgetting. Big on doing decorative things = >with her enemies. Voluptuous Jenna could be Aphrodite, or Jenna-as-jealous-bitch (for those= who go that way) could be Hera (actually, Hera is much misunderstood, but= there isn't time for that argument now). May also depend on whether you = go for the C and J as catty rivals theory (Athene/Aphrodite) or C and J as close friends (Athene/Hera). >Soolin: Definitely an Incan warrior goddess big on doing = >decorative things with her enemies remains. Andraste, = >Erinyes (no interest in eumenides), and others. Hm. Having eliminated Artemis and Athene... not many left of the Twelve.= = Maybe Nemesis. >Blake: Nemesis? Andraste? Mars Vindicator? All those = >Greek heroes who inevitably bring the disaster they were = >trying to prevent down on their heads? You're right, he seems closer to a hero than a god. Far too intelligent for Ares (whose reputation has been enormously improved by the rewriting = of his character for Xena). He might admire Prometheus, the Titan who rebelled against the Gods to aid humankind (and was horribly tortured as = a result). What about Gan? None of the gods seems very like him, but on the thesis sometimes proposed that his background was in farming he might follow the= cult of Demeter. If you move on to the Norse pantheon, Odin, qua one-eyed wanderer, seems rather suitable for GP Blake. Harriet PS Ellynne, I'm sorry if you've been offended by anything intended to be= humorous in my posts. Your messages are among those I look forward to most. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #286 **************************************