From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #90 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/90 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 90 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] RPG Female Fans Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Re: [B7L] RPG Female Fans Re: [B7L] Volcano question Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Seek-Locate-Destroy" [B7L] RIP Ian Dury Re: [B7L] Outfits (was Horizon discussion) [B7L] Andromedan filk Re: [B7L] Horizon Re: [B7L] Avon and That Image Re: [B7L] RIP Ian Dury [B7L] We'll send Madeline Albright if necessary Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) [B7L] A:ATA Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Re: [B7L] Outfits (was Horizon discussion) Re: [B7L] Andromedan filk Re: [B7L] Avon's skills RE: [B7L] Horizon (flame) [B7L] Horizon (Not that again...) Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) Re: [B7L] A:ATA Re: [B7L] RIP Ian Dury Re: [B7L] Horizon Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) [B7L] Who's an April Fool, then? Re: [B7L] Andromedan filk Re: [B7L] Avon's skills [B7L] Anna Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) [B7L] Horizon discussion Re: [B7L] Avon's skills ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:42:55 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RPG Female Fans Message-ID: <20000329124255.26252.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Neil Faulkner" >To: "b7" >Subject: Re: [B7L] RPG Female Fans >Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:33:13 +0100 > >Dorian wrote: > > Hhhm, I'm glad I have my players and not yours. :) I tend to find it's >the > > other way round, in my experiece players are more than happy to absorb > > background in order to create a fun character but don't want to spend >time > > learning dull rules and game mechanisms. > >*Every* group I've ever played with has been dominated by players who don't >want to know anything more than (a) what's this place called? and (b) who >can I kill while I'm here? > >Players contradict themselves. They demand more background, but give it up >as too much effort when it's handed to them. As I said before then, I'm glad I've got my players and not yours. :) I've always been really lucky with my players, both in the Blake's 7 game I run here and the Ars Magica game I run in London. All of my players are more than happy to learn a bit about the background and invest time into their characters (as well as shooting things! It's always important to remember that too! :) ) and I even have a couple of them writing journals for their characters. Not completely >incomprehensible when only the GM has read the sourcebook and everyone else >is itching to roll dice. >And even when players do look at background notes, there's no guarantee >they'll understand them. I once had a player in my Heptovania fantasy >campaign who expressed a desire to play an Azamban (Azamba correlating to >Africa). I told him clearly enough that the small Azamban population in >the >temperate north went back centuries, had been thoroughly assimilated into >the local culture, spoke the same language, worshipped the same gods, so >what did he roll up? A Zulu warrior, with leopardskin loincloth and >assegai. >(In the middle of winter, too.) (Stop chucking bloody spears at me!) Yeah, well there are some players that you just can't help. :) I'm opposed to killing characters except in necessity, (damatic or in case of extreme player/character stupidity.) however in the case of players like that I am always tempted to make and exception... >Players, in my experience, do not by and large want their characters to be >part of the game world society. They do not even want their characters to >originate from that society and be outcasts or self-imposed exiles from it. I can understand the first part; part of the joy is playing the adventuring outsider who travels far and wide looking for excitement and unusual experiences. The second part I can't understand, in order to do a character justice you have to have an idea of where they are coming from. > > I'm not saying that rules *aren't* important, God knows, I've played >Amber > > the diceless, free-form roleplaying game and it was a complete and utter > > shambles, it's just that I think that plot and characterisation are more > > important. If my players just wanted to roll dice and kill things I'd >get > > them to play a war-game. (not that there is anything wrong with >war-gaming > > either!) > >Plot and characterisation are heavily dependent on world background, so if >that's underdeveloped or undercomprehended then they're not going to be >fully realised. True. > > >But B7 is open to more individual interpretation than most F/SF > > > >backgrounds (far more so than say Star Wars or Star Trek) which > >makes >it > > >harder to use as a rolegame setting. > > > > Hhhm, I'm not sure that's really the case. The characters and politics >are > > certainly more 'grey' than either Wars or Trek, but the basis of the >game, > > at it's simplest, is that the Federation is 'the enemy' and that you are > > fighting them, whatever your reasons may be. I suppose it depends upon > > whether or not your players are fans. Only fans are as obsessive about > > interpretation as we are! :) > >The trouble with B7 is that it does not function within any clearly >definable idiom. It has elements of Flash Gordon and Star Trek whilst >subverting both. It leans towards hard core space opera, even cyberpunk on >occasion, but lacks the technological awareness of both and the >sociological >awareness of the latter. B7 is a melting pot of conventional SF idioms >which variously reaffirms, questions, denies and destroys the values of >each. This is a strength in some ways, since it makes the series open to >individual interpretation (consider the sheer variety of fanfic derived >from >the series), but a weakness from a rolegaming point of view because there >is >precious little chance of a group of players sharing a consensual >understanding of the ambience which a particular B7 game might aspire to. >One player might be treating it as space opera, another as cyberpunk, a >third as romantic science fantasy, Maybe, I suppose a great deal depends upon your players and how much you talk to them about the game and the setting during character generation and preparation. I think in some ways it is an advantage that my players are really very knowledgeable about the series, it limits the potential for mis-conception. Mind you, at least one of them has become very interested in the series as a result of playing my game so I must be doing something right! :) and whilst each could find evidence for >the validity of his/er approach within the matrix of the series, the result >would be a conflict of compatibilites rooted within the players (as opposed >to their characters) which would probably destroy the game before the end >of >the first session. I've seen it happen, many times (and not just with B7). >Neil Well mine has been going for 2 years now, so I think it can work with the right players. I don't put it down to any great talent as a GM on my part. As I say, I've just been very lucky! Maybe we ought to arrange to play together sometime, (If you'll pardon the potential inuendo there!) either we'll have a really good game or we'll fervently hate each other's gaming/GM style. Either way it wold be an interesting experience. Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:47:21 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Message-ID: <20000329124721.54183.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Marian de Haan" >To: >Subject: [B7L] Avon's skills >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:27:08 +0200 > >The discussion about Avon's many talents made me ponder on how, considering >the use the Federation could have made of his skills, it seems very >wasteful >to ship him off to Cygnus Alpha instead of forcing him to work for them. It's a good question. Given Avon's obvious abilities (the whole computer banking scam) and the Federation's ability to brainwash people and remove their memories and certain feelings it does seem like an awful waste of resources to deport him. After all, if he really was 'The number two man in all the Federated worlds' then surely loosing him would be silly. Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 12:52:39 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RPG Female Fans Message-ID: <20000329125240.4113.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ooops - typo alert!!! >I think in some ways it is an advantage that my players are really very >knowledgeable about the series, this should be *aren't* (!) really very knowledgeable about the series..... >it limits the potential for mis-conception. Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:34:13 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Volcano question Message-ID: <20000329143413.38317.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed > > a > > few times to get some people hooked for good!!!> > > > > Rescue, though almost endearingly blatant in its unoriginality, >is > > the best of the three (one has to give Our Heroes some points for >keeping a > > straight face through Dorian's mugging), but is rather difficult for me >to > > sit through after Terminal. Stardrive I just hate and loathe and detest >and > > despise and abominate. And don't like BTW. > > >Ok you are right about this but if you look at it like this: (Rescue! not >Stardrive) > >Turn on tv, see Resque, WOW this looks interesting. Then comes Power; the >two people I showed >this liked it so much they wanted to see the rest. > >Now when you look at is again ..... :) (So I meant first time viewing) > > > Then there's Power...weeelll, apart from the excrutiating plot, ghastly > > sexist script, appalling guest stars, risible costumes and quite >sick-making > > depiction of My Darling...nothing at all wrong, I suppose. > > > > >Tsssss, I realllllly liked the plot after the" where's ZEN!?!" question >marks disappeared. > > >Anyway for a first time viewing it would be okay to get to know the crew. >Better than Animals. > > >JMHO > > >Jeroen > >PS: This means Stardrive tooooooo!!! I'm with you Jeroen. Although I watched B7 from mid-series 2 my clearest memories (I was only 8 during series 2) were from the beginning of series four. As a result I've always had a soft spot for it. Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:02:40 +0000 From: Murray Smith To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Seek-Locate-Destroy" Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ariana, Your comments about all elements of the series falling into place in "S-L-D" were spot on, because of the introduction of Servalan as the B7 crew's big adversary. I also agree that we see the Federation as inhabited by human beings, some of whom we wouldn't mind having a drink with. When I first watched the series as a 9 year old, I made an instant comparison of Servalan with Margaret Thatcher, knowing that she had to be strong and ruthless to get almost to the top of the Federation at such a young age. I mentioned this comparison to Jackie at Deliverance '98, which amused her a lot! Vila not having the killer instinct was obvious in 'Cygnus Alpha', when we saw his expression of horror after he realised that he had killed someone. The comparison of Blake with a Star Trek captain is apt when we think of Kirk; but the former has more of a justification for rushing into a dangerous situation. In Trek, the aggressive captain was an obvious result of the stereotype of the tough action hero, who in reality would have stayed at 'home' (aboard ship or at headquarters), like Commander Ed Straker in UFO; but Blake knows that he is holding a disparate crew together due to his charisma. Because of this, he _needs_ to demonstrate to the others that he's prepared to risk his life when necessary, so that he can tell them to do the same. Murray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:15:47 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] RIP Ian Dury Message-ID: <006601bf999a$3214cae0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't resist this, though if you don't know the original I guess it will be meaningless 'What a Waste' I could have been the catalyst that starts the revolution I could have been transported to a penal institution What a waste I could have been a miner on a planet called Horizon I could have been the finest clone you've ever clapped you eyes on What a waste I could have done some research on an independent station I could have given Avon a much better explanation What a waste What a waste I could have stayed the leader of a rebel band First night nerves every last ditch stand It could have worked out if I'd been so inclined What a waste what a waste But the feds don't mind What a waste what a waste F******* Gauda Prime Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:00:21 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Outfits (was Horizon discussion) Message-ID: <002601bf99a8$a6ebf420$97ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To my: >>Can't we turn to something more entertaining, like Avon's wardrobe? :-) Dorian replied: >As long as it doesn't include that >really nasty one from Time Squad. That's one of my favourites :-) The one I hate most - all right, except for the Death Watch outfit and the red mummy suit :-) - is that grey thing from The Web and a lot of other S1 episodes, the one that looks like he's got a computer keyboard hanging on his chest. Yuk! >(Actually, I'm more concerned about some >of the awful costumes that Vil awas lumbered with. What *did* Michael do to >upset the costume designer!?) Which costume do you have in mind? The only really awful one I can think of is that traffic warden's gear from Pressure Point. But with Servalan's and Avon's outfits drawing my attention, I only notice those of the others when they're exceptionally bad :-) Marian (totally devoid of any fashion sense) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:05:45 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Andromedan filk Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The Battle Hymn of the Andromedan Republic (to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic/John Brown's Body) (dedicated to the BBC special effects crew struggling with a limited budget for 'Star One'...) by Judith Proctor and Kathryn Andersen We come from far Andromeda, a distant galaxy We've travelled twenty billion leagues across a starless sea We've come here to eradicate all of humanity We are invincible! CHORUS Power, power to amoebas Power, power to amoebas Power, power to amoebas Destroy humanity! We will whisk them with our egg beater and beat them to a froth We will scatter their intestines over all the tents of Goth They will quiver in their bed-socks when they feel our alien wrath We are invincible! CHORUS We'll ambush with our hairdryer and blow them all away We'll stomp on all the pieces, then we'll pound them into clay And then we'll dig them up again and throw them all away We are invincible! CHORUS We will steam on with our iron and we'll flatten all our foes When they taste our mettle, they won't resist our blows We are just the greatest -- everybody knows: We are invincible! CHORUS We'll bring on our secret weapon - it's designed by R&D They've raided grandma's kitchen and they've got the cutlery When you see our toaster, then it's time to turn and flee We are invincible! CHORUS Power, power to amoebas! Power, power to amoebas! Power, power to amoebas! Destroy humanity! -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:22:59 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon Message-ID: <010c01bf99ad$7b5b0da0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > >>At 00:37 29/03/00 > > My God, don't you lot have beds to go to? Go sleepybyes now, Northern > Hemisphereans. Sweet dreams of whoever takes your fancy! Mmm, cover of A:ATA... Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:39:20 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and That Image Message-ID: <015901bf99ae$b06ee4c0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet wrote: > As Spacefall happened to be the last episode I ever saw, so that my > knowledge of it originally depended on Trevor Hoyle's rather wild > paraphrase, I originally constructed a theory that Avon really did see > Anna, but felt it was too painful to start explaining who she was (and what > business of theirs was it anyway?), and therefore decided to refer to a > brother instead. This theory was smashed rather comprehensively when I saw > the episode and found out that the brother really did appear on screen, but > I still think it rather a pity. Hey, me too! (Sorry, but it did seem an unusual thing for two people to come up with independently.) Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:53:27 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] RIP Ian Dury Message-ID: <026c01bf99b0$99ba4b00$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > 'What a Waste' Wonderful, Alison. TOTP2 just had the song on. Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:11:29 EST From: Prmolloy@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] We'll send Madeline Albright if necessary Message-ID: <63.38859d1.2613af61@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marian wrote > Am I the only one who's getting thoroughly fed up with the Horizon > discussion? > Can't we turn to something more entertaining, like Avon's wardrobe? :-) > Now, my favourite outfits are... No, I'll spare you that. As a fellow newbie to the list, I wholeheartedly echo Marian's comments. I have really enjoyed the discussions to date. While I agree with Calle that this is the appropriate forum for this type of debate, I haven't seen any new positions taken, nor any fresh insight. At this point it seems to have degenerated into personal attacks, neither complimentary to those attacked or those attacking. I'd much rather contemplate something shallow, hmm, yes perhaps Avon's wardrobe. Trish ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 14:12:57 EST From: Prmolloy@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (b7) Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Otherwise shut up or fuck off. Neil Neil, will you marry me? Trish ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 13:57:32 -0500 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] A:ATA Message-ID: <000501bf99b0$a564be40$4a694e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Believe me, manuscripts are not necessarily IMPROVED by editors. There is no baseness they could not be guilty of, including inserting physics errors where none existed previously. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:06:15 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Message-ID: In message <20000329124721.54183.qmail@hotmail.com>, Mat Shayde writes >It's a good question. Given Avon's obvious abilities (the whole computer >banking scam) and the Federation's ability to brainwash people and remove >their memories and certain feelings it does seem like an awful waste of >resources to deport him. It's likely that any brainwashing technique capable of removing all risk of him misbehaving would also remove that which makes him valuable. Given his capabilities, I certainly wouldn't want to leave even the tiniest doubt that he wasn't under control. Easier just to dump him on Cygnus Alpha as an object lesson for anyone else thinking of misbehaving. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:19:43 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Outfits (was Horizon discussion) Message-ID: <20000329201943.78889.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >To my: > >>Can't we turn to something more entertaining, like Avon's wardrobe? :-) > >Dorian replied: > >As long as it doesn't include that > >really nasty one from Time Squad. > >That's one of my favourites :-) The one I hate most - all right, except >for the Death Watch outfit and the red mummy suit :-) - is that grey thing >from The Web and a lot of other S1 episodes, the one that looks like he's >got a computer keyboard hanging on his chest. Yuk! that's the one I mean (I think) the one like a tabard with toggles or switches on the front in various shades of grey and brown. Oh, no, sorry - I know that one that you mean. (I've just looked at the Sheelagh Wells/Joe Nazzaro book) Oh no, I rather like that one. I definately hate the dirty tabard one. > >(Actually, I'm more concerned about some > >of the awful costumes that Vil awas lumbered with. What *did* Michael do >to > >upset the costume designer!?) > >Which costume do you have in mind? The only really awful one I can think >of >is that traffic warden's gear from Pressure Point. But with Servalan's and >Avon's outfits drawing my attention, I only notice those of the others when >they're exceptionally bad :-) Most of Vila's costume seem to be shapeless things in a nasty shade of shit brown. Horrible. The tarffic warden one *is* awful, (but then so many in Pressure Point are! Where's the dinner party that Jenna and Cally are going to? I mean Servalan in evening dress I can cope with, but hardened guerilla fighter and smugglers?) but then I hate the one he wears in Breakdown (and much of the 1st series) that is orange, brown and red and buttons up the front and makes him look like he has really hunched shoulders. The nasty grey pyjamas with a sash from CATEOTW is fairly horrible/silly too. And teh yellow trousers from Redemption. And.... Oh poor Michael, the list goes on. :) >Marian (totally devoid of any fashion sense) > > Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:22:07 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: freedom-city@blakes-7.org Subject: Re: [B7L] Andromedan filk Message-ID: <20000329202207.2468.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Judith Proctor >To: Lysator List >CC: Freedom City >Subject: [B7L] Andromedan filk >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:05:45 +0100 (BST) > > The Battle Hymn of the Andromedan Republic > > (to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic/John Brown's Body) > > (dedicated to the BBC special effects crew struggling with a limited >budget for >'Star One'...) > > > by Judith Proctor and Kathryn Andersen > > We come from far Andromeda, a distant galaxy > We've travelled twenty billion leagues across a starless sea > We've come here to eradicate all of humanity > We are invincible! > > CHORUS > Power, power to amoebas > Power, power to amoebas > Power, power to amoebas > Destroy humanity! > > We will whisk them with our egg beater and beat them to a froth > We will scatter their intestines over all the tents of Goth > They will quiver in their bed-socks when they feel our alien wrath > We are invincible! > > CHORUS > > We'll ambush with our hairdryer and blow them all away > We'll stomp on all the pieces, then we'll pound them into clay > And then we'll dig them up again and throw them all away > We are invincible! > > CHORUS > > We will steam on with our iron and we'll flatten all our foes > When they taste our mettle, they won't resist our blows > We are just the greatest -- everybody knows: > We are invincible! > > CHORUS > > We'll bring on our secret weapon - it's designed by R&D > They've raided grandma's kitchen and they've got the cutlery > When you see our toaster, then it's time to turn and flee > We are invincible! > > CHORUS > Power, power to amoebas! > Power, power to amoebas! > Power, power to amoebas! > Destroy humanity! It's the two spaceships made from green Evostick Wood-glue bottles that always make me laugh. Poor Andromedans! Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:25:46 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Message-ID: <20000329202546.46088.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Julia Jones >To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se >CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se >Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's skills >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:06:15 +0100 > >In message <20000329124721.54183.qmail@hotmail.com>, Mat Shayde > writes > >It's a good question. Given Avon's obvious abilities (the whole computer > >banking scam) and the Federation's ability to brainwash people and remove > >their memories and certain feelings it does seem like an awful waste of > >resources to deport him. > >It's likely that any brainwashing technique capable of removing all risk >of him misbehaving would also remove that which makes him valuable. >Given his capabilities, I certainly wouldn't want to leave even the >tiniest doubt that he wasn't under control. Easier just to dump him on >Cygnus Alpha as an object lesson for anyone else thinking of >misbehaving. >-- >Julia Jones True - depends if he's really as good as he says he is or not... :) Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:38:59 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: b7 Subject: RE: [B7L] Horizon (flame) Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FD7AE5C@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Neil wrote: > Otherwise shut up or fuck off. No. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:33:54 GMT From: "David Fielding" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Horizon (Not that again...) Message-ID: <20000329213355.52608.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sorry if my posting was a bit over the top last night Neil, but I was getting really fed up and depressed with all the evasion and stonewalling that was coming from the Horizon camp. If that’s the way Horizon confronts criticism, then no wonder some people (me included) got angry. But if as you say, Horizon can’t be changed, what then can be done? David F. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:43:10 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) Message-ID: <031701bf99b9$e8e64db0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trish wondered: > Otherwise shut up or fuck off. > > Neil > > > Neil, will you marry me? Get in line, girl, or I'll tear your hair out ;) Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 22:39:20 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] A:ATA Message-ID: In message <000501bf99b0$a564be40$4a694e0c@dshilling>, Dana Shilling writes >Believe me, manuscripts are not necessarily IMPROVED by editors. There is no >baseness they could not be guilty of, including inserting physics errors >where none existed previously. Oh, that I can well believe. However, Paul Darrow's knowledge of science as displayed elsewhere leads me to believe that in this case the scientific errors were there before the editor got to the manuscript. The editor may, of course, be the guilty party when it comes to trampling all over series continuity, but given Paul's stated views on Avon's character I think that can be put down to someone writing a PGP Avon in a Pre-Way Back story. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 20:09:03 GMT From: "Mat Shayde" To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RIP Ian Dury Message-ID: <20000329200903.60176.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Alison Page" >Reply-To: "Alison Page" >To: "lysator" >Subject: [B7L] RIP Ian Dury >Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 17:15:47 +0100 > >I can't resist this, though if you don't know the original I guess it will >be meaningless > >'What a Waste' > >I could have been the catalyst that starts the revolution >I could have been transported to a penal institution >What a waste > >I could have been a miner on a planet called Horizon >I could have been the finest clone you've ever clapped you eyes on >What a waste > >I could have done some research on an independent station >I could have given Avon a much better explanation >What a waste >What a waste > >I could have stayed the leader of a rebel band >First night nerves every last ditch stand >It could have worked out if I'd been so inclined >What a waste what a waste >But the feds don't mind >What a waste what a waste >F******* Gauda Prime > >Alison Certainly not wasted on me Alison. :) I'm sure Ian Dury would have approved. Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 08:53:10 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon Message-ID: <20000329225310.63859.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Una McCormack" >Joanne wrote: > > >>At 00:37 29/03/00 > > My God, don't you lot have beds to go to? Go sleepybyes now, Northern > > Hemisphereans. Sweet dreams of whoever takes your fancy! > Mmm, cover of A:ATA... I said whoever, not whatever. Your penance is a mediation upon red leather trousers. I'm sure Julia will help you! Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:08:26 EST From: Prmolloy@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trish wondered: > Otherwise shut up or fuck off. > > Neil > > > Neil, will you marry me? Una responded: Get in line, girl, or I'll tear your hair out ;) Oh dear, I see another duel emerging. I suppose I have to throw the fishies from this side of the Atlantic and count on Paul Darrow physics for them to reach you... Trish ;) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:00:12 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: [B7L] Who's an April Fool, then? Message-ID: <38E2B52B.5AD020D7@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Vila's To-Do List, April 1, xxxx (1) Replace Tarrant's shampoo with Soolin's depilatory cream. (2) Replace Soolin's shampoo with sealing gel. (3) Rig Dayna's gun for joybuzzer feedback. (4) Put Avon's studded clothes under the heat lamp while he showers--zipper next to the bulb. (5) Tell Slave the story of Spartacus. (6) The Killer--Get Orac to tell Avon Blake's on Gauda Prime. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:01:36 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Andromedan filk Message-ID: <38E2B580.C8515A71@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith Proctor wrote: > We will whisk them with our egg beater and beat them to a froth > We will scatter their intestines over all the tents of Goth > They will quiver in their bed-socks when they feel our alien wrath > We are invincible! Where can I sign up? Mistral -- "Consider it an adventure."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 18:18:18 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Message-ID: <20000329.220036.-89621.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:06:15 +0100 Julia Jones < > > It's likely that any brainwashing technique capable of removing all > risk > of him misbehaving would also remove that which makes him valuable. > Given his capabilities, I certainly wouldn't want to leave even the > tiniest doubt that he wasn't under control. Easier just to dump him > on > Cygnus Alpha as an object lesson for anyone else thinking of > misbehaving. > -- Or maybe they just meant to leave him there for a limited amount of time (Vila has been sent to many a prison planet, after all). True, the Federation may take CA's 'plague' seriously, since they wouldn't let anyone off the ship and the planet may consequently be for lifers only. Then again, the locals aren't sociable and there may have been other reasons for not letting any of the crew off. If they'd believed in the plague, they might have told the crew to take level 4 biohazard precautions or something (although you can never tell with the Federation). Anyhow, they may have meant to leave Avon there long enough to humble him (yeah, I know, we're talking major optimists, but maybe they're the same folks who kept letting Vila back [Besides, Avon did have a friend on the parole board, even if he didn't know about her (meaning Anna. Servalan was no doubt living in stoic silence, thinking they'd never meet again, he'd never know how she really felt, etc.)]). Then, they'd let him back, going heavy on the carrot and the stick to keep him in line. Ought to work for all of five minutes. Well, amybe more if the pay scale's right. And if Anna originally had a plan in this scenario for telling him she was still alive and asking if he had any dinner plans.... Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 19:50:52 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Anna Message-ID: <20000329.220036.-89621.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wondering a few things about Anna Grant. I'll buy that Del Grant didn't know she was alive and so on. The risks he took in Countdown were real enough I wouldn't think he knew any of what was really going on with her. Besides, he didn't strike me as having much talent as a dissembler, so I don't think he'd have kept up the appearance of a grudge that well unless he had a grudge. I don't have any idea how he fit into things except that he had met Avon, knew a fair amount about the circumstances surrounding Anna's 'death,' and had had a chance to promise to kill Avon if they ever met again. So, Grant couldn't have known about the Sula Chesku identity or have had much opportunity to find out about it. Avon never uses a different last name for Anna, although he wasn't shocked when she mentioned a husband. I'm going to guess she was claiming to be legally seperated when she met him (if nothing else, he might have said to Shrinker, "Anna Grant Blake" while trying to jog his memory [although it would have been interesting if Bartholomew was watching both of them, besides going a long way to explain Avon's bad opinion of you-know-who]). Now, the most likely answer is that Anna had some other husband (real or not). The problem is that Avon's reaction to what Shrinker said suggested he knew the name Chesku. Well, bigwig politician and all that. Maybe a lot of people knew the name Chesku. On the one hand, it works for Avon to here that name and think Chesku either was Bartholomew and had been getting back at his ex or else he had set security on her for some other reason, say jealousy, that had led to agent B becoming aware of what Avon did in his spare time. This is a problem because it suggests Avon knew Chesku was Anna's husband. Since it's unlikely even Federation citizens would have believed a guy had different wife just because she changed her name, this raises all sorts of questions about how Avon didn't hear she was still alive. Of course, it's possible the Federation has some equivalent of morganatic marriage, allowing a high ranking citizen to marry someone lower on the social scale without changing the lower ranking spouse's status. Such a spouse could be expected to stay out of the public eye, and the marriage itself might not be widely known. This (weak as it is) allows some excuse. However, if it weren't for Avon's awareness of Chesku, I'd guess Anna simply got rid of her old identity and went on with a new one (or one she had already spent time and effort establishing). Other things: the attraction between Anna and Avon. I'd guess (whether or not Anna had ever pretended to be a weak female in need of protection) that she hadn't downplayed her mind. When she tells Avon they were well matched, she's not saying, "This may come as a complete surprise to you, but we have a lot in common and you aren't the only person in the room who can add two and two to get four." She expected him to know this. Besides, Grant (nondissembler) probably was around them enough to notice if Anna hadn't been herself around Avon and could have been expected to comment in Countdown ("And another thing, my sister only pretended to be a ditz to soothe that inflated ego of yours. And you fell for it."). Anna's accent: Obviously, she took voice coaching to fit in with the 'right' crowd. Or else Grant's been picking up speech patterns from other colony worlds and his fellow mercenaries. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 07:27:21 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon (flame) Message-ID: <007c01bf9a11$450f10c0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mat wrote: > Excuse me Mr Faulkner - I have never accused Diva of being Diane. I don't > care who he/she/it is and respect her right to use a pseudonym as much as I > wopuld hope she resepcts mine. Then excuse *me*, Mr [insert real name here], but my flame was directed to the two of you since you are both clearly acquainted with each other and have both adopted the same negative approach to appraising the shortcomings of Horizon. The matter is not worth pursuing if the two of you persist in doing so in such a juvenile manner. Neil "I am not a man, I am a free number." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:12:12 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Horizon discussion Message-ID: <38E2E22C.490AFD7D@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marian wrote: >Am I the only one who's getting thoroughly fed up with the Horizon discussion? First let me say that I am not and never have been a member of Horizon. And Pat is my real name. I am positively bleary eyed, wading thru all those looooong vitriolic posts. I think Michael Bailey is very lucky he bailed when he did. We did not realize at the time that he was merely the appetizer for this feast of fannish fricasse-ing And I know I don't *have* to scan all those Horizon posts, but it's rather like driving past a grisly auto accident; one feels compelled to look... However, it is interesting to see some of the lurkers crawl out and post. I have a question: I used to get one digest a day, generally sent (I assume) during the low net traffic time of 1 a.m. Now I am getting 3 a day! Just out of curiosity, can anyone tell me how /when a digest 'sorts itself out' and decides it is full and time to fly away? >Can't we turn to something more entertaining, like Avon's wardrobe? :-) Yes please. What a shame that Avon never got into the spirit of things at The Big Wheel. Krantor and Toise were superlative in their silver bejeweled costumes. And Servalan was to die for in her scarlet sequins. For Avon? Gleaming blue-black satin, skin tight, trimmed with sparkly silvery diamond studded bracelets and KISS-style silver knee high boots with six inch platform heels. An Elvis-sized belt of silver studded with deep blue sapphires. For a headpiece, something with blue violet plumes, I think. Now picture this vision of delight doing the bosa nova with That Scarlet Woman. oh! be still my beating heart! PatPat -- "Never give up. Never surrender." -- Galaxy Quest _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 21:06:34 +0100 From: "Ariana" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's skills Message-ID: <000201bf9a11$ea3003c0$ace407c3@ariana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marian de Haan > > Even if they are not aware of the scope of his expertise, his hacking into > the Banking System is proof of his genius with computers. Why didn't they > force him to work for them instead of deporting him? Perhaps they preferred to have someone with that kind of expertise off with the loonies rather than with any kind of access to their computers. After all, Blake's case rather suggests that the memory-erasing stuff isn't all that reliable, so the Feds might have found it safer to ship Avon off rather than unleash him on their computer system. Also, although I'm by no means informed enough to be an expert, it's possible that Avon was merely another common thief in the eyes of the Federation. Just because his crime attempt was clever doesn't mean they'd view it as any less of an attempted crime. I don't remember the British government offering any of the Great Train Robbers a job - and *they* actually succeeded. I can't speak for the Anna stuff because I'm still trying to avoid spoilers (not doing very well, though ;), but I'm pretty sure the above was in the writer's mind when Spacefall was written at least. I don't know about Avon being an aristocrat either. I've known one or two people with that kind of arrogance, and it doesn't strike me as an aristocratic feature. There's more to Avon's behaviour than passive superciliousness; he's too aggressive, IMHO. I'd associate this more with someone who has had to fight tooth and nail to get where they are, rather than someone who was given the lucky break at birth. Blake, OTOH, could well be a top-grade person (I gather it was established that he was), because he has less of an urge to be *superior* (as opposed to simply *in charge*). Also, I think it's generally the members of the intelligentia and the ruling classes who have the most time to worry about Ideals during a Revolution (then they get the population involved and end up with their heads chopped off, but that's another matter ). While we're into categorising people, I definitely see Vila as being working class. He wouldn't be at all out of place in my boyfriend's family. I don't see why he should be an Alpha in disguise just because he's clever; I'm sure Deltas can be clever too! :) Just thinking out loud... Ariana http://www.alpha.ndirect.co.uk -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #90 *************************************