From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #279 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/279 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 279 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief [B7L] new web address for caption contest Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief [B7L] Belief and sermon writing [B7L] Bibliophagy (?) and enlightenment [B7L] The christianity discussion Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] Bibliophagy (?) and enlightenment Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion [B7L] Re: Doubt and Belief [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Re: [B7L] Re: Doubt and Belief Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Re: [B7L] Technophilia Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion [B7L] Vila World [B7L] Technophilia Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Re: [B7L] Technophilia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 15:13:35 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-ID: <39a8925f.3640b56f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-11-04 08:43:34 EST, you write: << Not to mention the problem that Christianity existed before the Bible, so how can the Bible be the foundation of Christian belief? >> Took me a moment to think this one out. You mean New Testament vs. Old Testament, parts of which at least predate Christ and Christianity considerably. Very good point. The other aspect of it is the very obvious contridictions in the presentation of the Supreme Diety in the two works, even putting aside the Trinity/Unity question. Or how it is someone interprets the Bible literally, but doesn't adhere to a kosher diet or sacrificial rules. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 08:09:02 -0800 (PST) From: Sue Clerc To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] new web address for caption contest Message-ID: <19981104160902.20838.rocketmail@send201.yahoomail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii My B7 pages are now at a new address: http://pages.cthome.net/blakes7/ The caption contest has been updated and a draft of comments on "Star One" is also up. I'm still working on some of the stuff. Sue blake4fr@yahoo.com http://pages.cthome.net/blakes7/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 11:09:19 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Iian wrote: << In my view, there is a fundamental incompatibility between science and religion. My experience of scientists who have some religious faith is that they keep their science and religion in different mental compartments, and don't allow the attitudes of one compartment to leak into the other. >> My experience has been completely different. At least with the science professors I had in college, they saw the incredibly complex world that we are just starting to learn about through science as just another example of the wonder of God. For myself, I see God not just as the Great Lover or as Love itself, but also as the Master Mathematician and Superb Scientist. (When I start talking like this to my children, they usually start rolling their eyes because my next subject is usually how great Algebra is! Math, math, I love math!) Gail G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 18:01:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Doubt and belief Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 4 Nov 1998 VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote: > Iain wrote > > << Not to mention the problem that Christianity existed before the Bible, so > how can the Bible be the foundation of Christian belief? >> > > Orthodox thought sees the Bible somewhat differently than some of the other > Christian groups. For us, the Bible is merely one part of Holy Tradition, > although a very important part. The teachings of the Saints and Church > Fathers help us to interpret and understand the Bible. The Catholic tradition is that Christ established the Church with Peter as its head, and that authority has passed from Peter all the way down to the present Pope. (The correspondence between this account and historical reality is left as an exercise for the reader.) The position of the Bible seems to be much the same in the Catholic and Orthodox traditions. > > For your other point, that the New Testament was not written immediately after > the crucifixion, or perhaps even during Jesus' life, I know this does bother > some people. I wasn't really bringing this up as a point about the reliability or otherwise of the NT documents, more as a purely logical difficulty. If Christianity predates some Biblical documents, and indeed the Bible was not compiled until some centuries later, how can Christian belief be based solely, or even primarily, upon the Bible? Iain (Maybe any more on this topic should go to the spin list.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:03:13 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Belief and sermon writing Message-ID: <19981105000314.10398.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Oh dear, I think I've written a sermon. I hope no one minds! >Gail G. That's all right, Gail. It had the virtue of brevity, so I didn't need to look for a hymnbook or bible to stop me fidgeting. I can see Blake listening to sermons, especially where he didn't agree with the minister's opinions and would want to refute his arguments. Cally might do the same. Vila might see sermons as an opportunity to go to sleep. (If I'd done that, instead of reading, my parents might've had something harsh to say.) I can't see Avon or Soolin listening raptly. Regards Joanne Does the notion of chocolate preclude the concept of free will? Sandra Boynton, American cartoonist. (My answer, most of the time, is yes.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 16:32:42 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Bibliophagy (?) and enlightenment Message-ID: <19981105003243.7948.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >> Meaning creation science, I presume. I believe in God, but I refuse >> to swallow the Bible whole >I imagine this would be impossible anyway, unless you used a bible >with really really small print. >Iain The Gideon's Bible people hand out small sized New Testaments. You'd be able to fit one of those in your mouth, if you were both silly enough and determined enough. A drunken bet, perhaps? But swallowing? I think we're going into angels on pinheads territory. (Hang on, should I rephrase that?) >Including (and here's the paradox) those who don't share that >enlightened viewpoint. I'm sure there are many people in >Afghanistan today who would adopt a different attitude. >-- Rob Rob's cheerful thought for the day , not that the Talibaan are the only ones with this particular blindspot, by any means. Nor is it a specifically religious failing, unfortunately. Time to go and work on some indexes, let alone what there is of my higher and nobler self. Regards Joanne "...What sign were you born under?" he asked Kate, hands on the tea table. "Keep Out," Kate said, "and I still haven't read it properly." --Amanda Cross, The Theban Mysteries. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 05 Nov 1998 05:59:45 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] The christianity discussion Message-ID: I think it's time to move it over to the spin list, as it is quickly losing all relevance to Blake's 7 (and I want to join in, which I can't do with a clear conscience on this list, so please *do* move to the spin list rather than dropping it :-) -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 04 Nov 1998 20:26:04 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Message-ID: <364128DC.974@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murray (TCD) wrote: > I agree with your assertion that 'Persecution can strengthen a faith > because forces from the outside tend to push in on and therefore concentrate > the fervor of the persecuted', which is certainly true regarding the early > Christians; one early Christian writer said that the blood of the martyrs > was 'the seed of the church'. There is also no doubt that this would also be > true with regard to certain rebel groups, but _not_ to the B7 crew. > The only 'true believers' are Blake and Cally; the others are involved for > various different reasons, but none of them involve any principled > opposition to the Federation. They are criminals, after all. What if Blake and Cally were Frank and Jesse James? Some other guys just happen to fall in with the famous outlaw James Gang and happen to be tagging along when a couple banks get blown up. Would any judge or citizen care one whit whether those "hangers on" *believed* in the James brothers professed desire to give the bank gold to poor widows? No, the tag-alongs would be persecuted / prosecuted regardless. It does not matter what Avon and Vila believe. They could believe in the Easter Bunny. What matters is the *fact* that they are being persecuted: i.e. harried, hunted, hated, harassed, hounded into a hellhole. Hey! even haunted (Sarcophogus) > Villa, in 'Duel', mentioned the fact that the Federation would hunt > them down until the day they died. He was aware that, as they did more > damage to the > Federation, the latter would devote more effort to hunting them down. The > strategy outlined by Avon in 'Cygnus Alpha', of abandoning the ship and > using the wealth on it to 'melt into the general populace on some backwater > dirtball' would be impossible, as they would be too hated, and the rewards > offered for their death and capture would be too large. It does not matter the *reasons* for persecution; just that heavy persecution obviates the option of blending back into the society. Hence their only recourse is to remain outlaws. And being an outlaw in a gang is generally preferable to being on the run totally alone. Hence, the Blakes 7 rebel pod *is so* molded into cohesion by a stronger outside force. so there. Pat P, now enrolled (embroiled?) in Debate 101 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 17:18:35 -0800 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Bibliophagy (?) and enlightenment Message-ID: In message <19981105003243.7948.qmail@hotmail.com>, Joanne MacQueen writes >>> Meaning creation science, I presume. I believe in God, but I refuse >>> to swallow the Bible whole >>I imagine this would be impossible anyway, unless you used a bible >>with really really small print. >>Iain > >The Gideon's Bible people hand out small sized New Testaments. You'd be >able to fit one of those in your mouth, if you were both silly enough >and determined enough. A drunken bet, perhaps? But swallowing? I think >we're going into angels on pinheads territory. (Hang on, should I >rephrase that?) Totally off-topic, I know - but I *have* seen a bible small enough to swallow whole. I haven't seen it since I was a wee small thing, so this is from memory, but roughly an inch high, semi-hardback, kept in a worked metal case with a magnifying glass set into the front cover of the case so that you could read the thing. And yes, you *could* read it, with a magnifying glass, the print was small but perfectly formed. Can't remember if it was a complete bible or just the new testament. Some sort of novelty item, possibly late Victorian? Now I think about it, it was the sort of expensive trinket you might find in an expensive set of Christmas crackers. -- Julia Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 01:53:06 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Message-ID: <19981105095306.24483.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Calle: >I think it's time to move it over to the spin list, as it is quickly >losing all relevance to Blake's 7 (and I want to join in, which I >can't do with a clear conscience on this list, so please *do* move to >the spin list rather than dropping it :-) Sounds about right. But where *is* the spin list? Also, just before we move on to the spin list, I've got a bit more word-eating to do. I checked my references last night: Marcus Aurelius *did* sanction a persecution in Lyons in 177AD, and the quote I associated with him was misdirected. The quote was closer to "The only hardship he inflicted on the Christians was to deprive them of the power to torment their fellow subjects." The quote referred not to Marcus Aurelius, but to the emperor Julian "the Apostate" (r. 360-363), and it was originally made by Gibbon in "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" -- Chapter 8. That's just me correcting what I'd put on the main list -- I'd like to continue the discussion on the spin list, though... -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:22:02 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Doubt and Belief Message-ID: <199811050622_MC2-5F30-9EE8@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Joanne replied to Deborah: >>if I were religious, my patron saint would be >>Saint Thomas. I admire a man who requires >>proof, especially in the face of extraordinary claims. >Good choice for a real scientist... >... Maybe St Thomas should be patron saint >of newcomers and outsiders, let alone scientists, >because all of them have to ask questions and >Thomas was pretty new to the apostles, if I >remember correctly Oh! I get it now. When Deborah said Thomas, I was thinking Aquinas - systematic argument and all that. But she meant the Doubter. He was one of the original 12 apostles, though; the official replacement for Judas was Matthias, not to be confused with Matthew, another original. Though Acts says that Matthias and the other candidate, Joseph, had been with the group from the Baptism to the Ascension, so he wasn't all that new. Thomas was supposed to have gone out to India eventually, though that's not very relevant. This is pretty off-topic. Will try to think of an appropriate patron saint for the Liberator. Ernesto Cardenal would be nice, but I doubt he'll ever be canonised. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:22:22 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity Message-ID: <199811050623_MC2-5F30-9EF2@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Taina asked about Blake: >How would he respond to a society that >welcomed and co-operated with Federation >rule, because they valued order and authority >well above individual rights? And Joanne replied: >I do see this, but it depends on how coercive, >let alone how tolerant, we believe Blake to be. >Do we assume that he'd be happy to force people >to accept what is good for them? Reminds me of when Alexander the Great used to go round imposing democracies on the Greek cities of Asia Minor... Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:09:47 EST From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Message-ID: <2c394776.3641958b@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes, can we please move it all over? I've just about had it with patriarchal religions in general at this stage of my life (a study of what they've done to women throughout history gives new meaning to the phrase "Johnny come lately") and I think we can all agree that this is one topic that was avoided on B7 the series to avoid just the same controversies. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 07:18:58 EST From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: 101637.2064@compuserve.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Doubt and Belief Message-ID: <8389c4c4.364197b2@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Deborah says: << >>if I were religious, my patron saint would be >>Saint Thomas. I admire a man who requires >>proof, especially in the face of extraordinary claims.>> That's very amusing and ironic to those of us who follow different beliefs. One secular source reference analyzes the existence of the biblical Saint Thomas thusly: "Hellenized name (Greek pronounciation) of the Middle Eastern archaic god Tammuz, traditional Dying Savior of the jerusalem cult (Ezekiel 8:14), whose rites were supplanted by those of Jesus. Tammuz then became Doubting Thomas, challenging Jesus's claim to authentic apotheosis and resurrection in the flesh. He refused to believe in his rival's return from death until he had probed his wounds. Then, Thomas/Tammuz announced his acceptance of Jesus as "my Lord and my God" (John 20:20)--or so the Gospel would have it. The story of Doubting Thomas appears only in the so-called Gnostic Gospel of John, written more than 150 years after Jesus's purported lifetime. Its purpose was to press Christian claims to superiority over the older dieties. Thomas the doubter-turned-convert was also Thomas the twin; Christian legends admitted that Jesus and Thomas/Tammuz had the same face and were really the same god. According to some sources, the rival's name was Judas Thomas, or Judas the Tammuz, whose face was the same as Jesus's face. Judas and Jesus seem to have been traditional names taken by victims in whom the god Tammuz was incarnate. During the 4th century, a shrine at Edessa was taken over by followers of the new Tammuz--now called St. Thomas, Apostle to India--and the usual 'authentic relics' were installed." Read your ancient history. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:25:02 GMT From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray (TCD)) To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe Message-Id: <199811051225.MAA00103@dux1.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat wrote: >What if Blake and Cally were Frank and Jesse James? Some other guys just >happen to fall in with the famous outlaw James Gang and happen to be >tagging along when a couple banks get blown up. Would any judge or >citizen care one whit whether those "hangers on" *believed* in the James >brothers professed desire to give the bank gold to poor widows? No, the >tag-alongs would be persecuted / prosecuted regardless. Of course the non-political part of the B7 crew would be persecuted. I was pointing out that, unlike the early Christians, they have committed crimes which the former would condemn. so the comparison falls down in that part. >It does not matter the *reasons* for persecution; just that heavy >persecution obviates the option of blending back into the society. Hence >their only recourse is to remain outlaws. And being an outlaw in a gang >is generally preferable to being on the run totally alone. Hence, the >Blakes 7 rebel pod *is so* molded into cohesion by a stronger outside >force. so there. It is true that they are 'moulded into cohesion by a stronger outside force', but unlike the early Christians, they have no common belief that is strengthened by the persecution; they only become a more cohesive fighting force. While they get back to fighting the Federation in the fourth season, that is motivated solely by the need to survive, not because it is the right thing to do. Murray Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:01:17 +1100 (EST) From: John Werry To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Message-Id: <199811051401.BAA28417@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Murray spake thusly: > > I agree with your assertion that 'Persecution can strengthen a faith >because forces from the outside tend to push in on and therefore >concentrate the fervor of the persecuted', which is certainly true regarding >the early Christians; one early Christian writer said that the blood of the >martyrs was 'the seed of the church'. There is also no doubt that this >would also be true with regard to certain rebel groups, but _not_ to the B7 crew. >The only 'true believers' are Blake and Cally; the others are involved for >various different reasons, but none of them involve any principled >opposition to the Federation. They are criminals, after all. State Affiliations first: CoE upbringing with flirtations with (in order) Von Danikism, Budhism, and Krishna. Overall rejected for the notion of "When it's over it's over" ie athiesism. I beg to differ with the above: Let us not confuse moral recitude with spirituality and "purity" of purpose To me, Blake was simply too savvy and cynical to be a "true believer". Eg - in Star One - he acceeded to Avon's request (or was it a test???) of the Liberator for the presidency of Earth ("It's over Blake" etc etc) .... I feel that a true believer could not counternce all his followers not following!!! On the other hand ... Avon had numerous opportunities to leave the Liberator (to his own direct benefit) , yet did not (to his personal disadvantage) - even with the loss of Blake ... Avon to me is akin to the cynical christian (doubting St Thomas) ... ie he believes and is willing to go along with the process, but regularly demands proof or strokes for his faith - but not financial reward (admittedly he thrives on a sort of moral superiority - but this seems only evident when Blake and Avon are in private discussion) . But most importantly - once the Prophet (profit???) has departed ... he still believes and acts albeit cynically ((which one of the disciples was a former tax collector???). To me - Gan is the most "buddhist" - "action without question" ... and is (apart from Zen) the only "true believer" (absolute trust and faith) on the Crew ... It is interesting to note that the "Cargo Cult" phenomenon has to this point escaped discussion - ie the technophilic scientism that seems to frequently appear - eg the Clone masters (Weapon) or the Series 3 eps (Ultraworld, Sarcophacus, Volcano ...). In many ways this is the underlying faith system of the B7 series... Another variant of this was the "Giaism" in Duel, Animals & the one with Pel and "The Web". Oh well .... Regards : John __________________________________________________ Seaborg's First Principle of Science: "Anything significant and important is made from Chocolate". werry@netspace.net.au http:netspace.net.au/~werry/indexb.htm ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:31:31 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Religion in the B7 universe Message-ID: <008d01be08d1$5ec52cc0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, affiliations first: biological reductionist. As I see it, one point of difference between religious persecution and the B7 crew is that religious groups (and some rebel groups) tend to be much larger than the B7 crew. Persecution of the religious (or fervently believing rebel) group can promote cohesion through identity as well as shared belief. The B7 crew is small enough to experience the psychological cohesion/camaraderie that results from facing shared danger (and I think the danger is more important here than the actual persecution, particularly persecution before they joined the Liberator). For a larger group, this is not a personal sharing. For identities among the B7 crew, Vila has one from his membership of the Delta grades. Jenna may have one as a Free Trader. Cally has been torn away from hers with her people (from her "failure" on Saurian Major, rather than her physical distance from them). I don't see the crew as having a shared identity as rebels, not as the entire group, and I see Vila as the most reluctant rebel amongst them, ie the most distant from that identity. Avon attempts to keep his distance. Hmm. My thoughts have ground to a halt. Taina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 10:57:49 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Message-ID: <7600e974.3641cafd@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Calle wrote: << I think it's time to move it over to the spin list, as it is quickly losing all relevance to Blake's 7 >> Spin list? Where is it? Gail G. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:54:51 -0600 (EST) From: Tegan Brandi To: B7 Subject: Re: [B7L] Technophilia Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 6 Nov 1998, Taina Nieminen wrote: > Now why is it that full grown clones step out of the vat with the hair cut > of the original? Or do the Clone Masters employ a good hairdresser? maybe the hair is just glued on afterwards with rubber cement? maybe they're all really bald and have to wait a few months before they have hair, so they just make a wig that looks like the person they're cloning so the Clone Masters can use the clones for their evil deeds... bwah hah hah... :) tegan (*) tegan@goddess.coe.missouri.edu http://goddess.coe.missouri.edu/~tegan Can't this wait till I'm old? Can't I live while I'm young? -Phish, Chalk Dust Torture ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 06:50:39 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Message-ID: <40584520.3641910f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/5/98 12:01:41 AM Eastern Standard Time, calle@lysator.liu.se writes: << I think it's time to move it over to the spin list >> How do I get to the spin list? D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:59:36 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: [B7L] Vila World Message-ID: <006d01be08cc$e92773a0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Advertising brochure came with the mail today for a building firm in Brisbane that goes by the name of Villa World. Taina =========================== Is there a mind/body problem? And if so, which is it better to have? - Woody Allen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 01:44:44 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: [B7L] Technophilia Message-ID: <009501be08d3$373b56f0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now why is it that full grown clones step out of the vat with the hair cut of the original? Or do the Clone Masters employ a good hairdresser? Taina =========================== Is there a mind/body problem? And if so, which is it better to have? - Woody Allen ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 6 Nov 1998 00:58:53 +1000 From: "Taina Nieminen" To: "B7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake and diversity Message-ID: <006b01be08cc$d06800a0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Taina asked about Blake: >>How would he respond to a society that >>welcomed and co-operated with Federation >>rule, because they valued order and authority >>well above individual rights? > >And Joanne replied: >>I do see this, but it depends on how coercive, >>let alone how tolerant, we believe Blake to be. >>Do we assume that he'd be happy to force people >>to accept what is good for them? Looking at what Blake did to damage the Federation: - destroy a communication complex in Time Squad - attack a Federation communication base to acquire a deciphering device in Seek-Locate-Destroy - transport Avalon to a safer planet in Project Avalon - return President Sarkoff to Lindor to end the civil war and prevent a Federation takeover - destroy the Federation shadow operation in Shadow - help free Horizon from the Federation in Horizon - cause minor damage to Space Command HQ in Trial - acquire a new deciphering device in Killer - save the Albian population in Countdown (not a minor achievement, but not very destructive to the Federation either) - save the agriculture and economy of Destiny and hence support its independence from the Federation in Destiny - stop Servalan getting her hands on Orac (I've left out Voice from the Past because Blake was forced into helping the rebels.) Horizon becomes an unwilling colony, Lindor (or some of the population at least) doesn't want to join the Federation, who manipulated elections and created a civil war to provide an excuse for takeover, Albian is coerced into loyalty, Destiny is struggling to remain independent. No one on screen seems to voluntarily support the Federation apart from the people who are in Space Command or the Administration (and therefore have vested interests). (I don't find it a surprising portrayal of an evil galactic empire, though.) The situation with Lindor and Sarkoff is particularly significant for Blake's attitude toward "people's own good". Sarkoff does not want to leave his exile and return to Lindor, Blake coerces him into doing so, by threatening to (and beginning to) destroy something of value to him. Also, looking at his intention to destroy Star One. He knows that when central computer control is destroyed, many, many people will die, but it's a price he's willing to pay. That is, even though he's risking his own life, he's paying the price in other people's lives. I can't remember how many planets there actually were in the Federation at that time (my mind keeps bringing up 200 - is this anywhere near right?), but I can't see that Blake can know that all of them want to be free. True, his experience has shown him that if a planet is loyal, it's because the entire population will be killed if they resist. If civil war or agricultural disaster make a planet vulnerable to Federation take-over, the Federation has manipulated that situation in the first place. Avalon has been involved in resistance movements on several planets, and knows of others. So it's not an unreasonable assumption for him to make. But even so, he's making that decision for those people. On the other hand, before Cygnus Alpha, Blake's aim was to rescue "his people" and anyone else who *chose* to join him. Still, this was not just a case of rescuing people from Cygnus Alpha - it would have been one of making them rebels, and actively hunted by the Federation. So there's not a lot of evidence that Blake would have coerced or manipulated people into accepting what was good for them - a few incidents. However, Blake does deceive and manipulate his crew (or some members of his crew on occasion). He lies to them about his intention to attack Central Control when they return to Earth, having told them it was a "long range reconnaissance mission". And I believe that he is manipulating them with his video recording in Trial (maybe it's the Avon in me). But I think the latter is a matter of perception, and I may well be more cynical than most people. Hope this is making sense. Taina =========================== Is there a mind/body problem? And if so, which is it better to have? - Woody Allen ------------------------------ Date: 05 Nov 1998 22:51:39 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The christianity discussion Message-ID: AChevron@aol.com writes: > How do I get to the spin list? D. Rose There are instructions for joining it on Judith's web pages. Specifically, at http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Fanclubs/index.html -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Try again. Try harder. -*- Fail again. Fail better. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 15:15:38 PST From: "Todd Girdler" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Technophilia Message-ID: <19981105231538.25034.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Now why is it that full grown clones step out of the vat with the hair cut >of the original? Or do the Clone Masters employ a good hairdresser? > > >Taina I guess that they do it because they are professionals. Otherwise they would be called "Clone Undergraduates". :) }<("> Todd Girdler <")>{ "If the sum of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the other two sides, why is a mouse when it spins?" Tom Baker, Doctor Who ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #279 **************************************