From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #102 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/102 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 102 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Sheelagh Wells' Together Agailn Tapes Re: [B7L] Assassin RE: [B7L] Cult TV guests Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Heat Interview with PD Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...and red leather [B7L] Dayna dynamics (long) Re: [B7L] what's so funny? (was - Assassin) Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Dayna dynamics (long) Re: [B7L] Phoenix 4 [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Phoenix 4 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 03:13:20 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36EE3CCF.BD301B10@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Patera wrote: > The Political Correctness of the '90s is now trying to go back in time > and rewrite history - in the US anyway. But human nature doesn't change. > When it comes to violence, we can ignore it, ridicule it, or get > seriously bummed about it. But where's the fun in that? Too right. All humor is based on pain of some kind -- even comedy of errors is based on the embarrassment people feel over looking foolish. Who we have been makes us who we are today. Ignoring and rewriting history is rank stupidity. Laughter is a survival skill. Let's use it. To quote Tarrant: 'Let's use our brains instead of having them transferred.' Mistral -- "An intelligent man can adapt."--Avon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 09:01:00 -0500 From: "Roberts, Patricia " To: "\"Lysator\" " , "\"Space City\" " Subject: [B7L] Sheelagh Wells' Together Agailn Tapes Message-Id: <199903161432.PAA19435@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain Sheelagh has asked me to let everyone know that Horizon, the B7 Fan Club, will no longer be carrying the Together Again tapes.. Sheelagh will be selling these tapes and anyone can order from her directly. Her address is: Sheelagh Wells 20A New Road Brentford, Middlesex TW8 ONX England Volume VI - Solstice" is out. Gareth and Paul are on it as well as Pennant Roberts (the series first director) and Mary Ridge (the series last director). You can also get the tapes from Judith Proctor (see her website). Pat ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 11:58:21 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <95899023.36ee8dad@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > I just think he's nice enough without turning him into an > idealist, which is really odd, because you said the same > thing, and yet your view of him seems so *very* idealistic > to me. Far too much like Blake. I'm not sure where we differ either. Possibly I do see him as nicer on a personal level than you do. But I don't see him becoming the champion of masses, which is how I view Blake. > I do keep meaning to get back to the definitions post, but just > let me make a quick sketch for you of 'my' Avon. He's got trust > issues. At a guess (someday I'm gonna count), roughly 75-80% > of the eps have a direct dialogue or actional reference to trust > and/or betrayal; most but not all of those involve Avon, and those > that don't generally involve Blake. For me, this is what the whole > series is about. This might be a good jumping off point. We can focus on discussing how we specifically view the Snarly One. I agree he has trust issues, but I sense you see that as a problem. Given the universe he lived in, I find Avon's lack trust completely understandable. It's like the old line about "you aren't paranoid if people are really after you." Avon has good reason not to trust. It's a very rational decision, exactly what I expect from someone you described in another post with these words: "logic, self-restraint, discipline, independence, the refusal to be swayed from those values by transitory emotions, etc., etc... " But that he does come to trust his shipmates indicates that he hasn't taken distrust to what I'd call an unhealthy level. I think one of my favorite Avon quotes on trust is: "Belkov trusts no one, which is a strength, because that means that no one can betray him. But it is also a weakness because it means that he is the only one who can defend what is his." While Avon recognizes that to trust indiscriminately is dangerous, he also recognizes the value of having people you can trust. > Skipping lots of psychobabble explanation, it would be consistent > with what I perceive as his personality type to 1) have *very* > strong feelings which he barely acknowledges to himself, let alone > anyone else (hence the occasional bursts of temper) and 2) prefer to > have only a *very* few, *very* close friends (think taking all of the > emotion the average person puts into all their friends and pouring > it into only two or three people), HOWEVER, because of all the > loss and betrayal he has suffered by the time we meet him, he is > even more private and shut down than usual, and determined not > to care about or trust anybody. I don't see Avon as that damaged by betrayal when we meet him. Yes, he's lost Anna and he has a strong reaction to that (loss, guilt, a sense of personal failure), but I don't see that he's shut down. I think he's always been a reserved introvert, slow to make friends, slow to develop relationships. I wouldn't say he's consciously made a decision that he prefers to have only a few friends, but rather than he's very picky about his friends and that's what might have limited how many friends he's had. As an introvert I'd say that he doesn't get the enjoyment out of casual social contacts that extroverts do. Rather, he finds socializing to be a strain. Which again would cut down on the number of people he would be inclined to call friends. He values his limited social energies and restricts them to people he enjoys being with. Again, I don't find this to be unhealthy (as with the trust issue). > All of the above makes him both not very popular and not very > well understood by the 'normals'. I hate to say normals. I don't find introverts to be abnormal, just different. And there is a tendency for some extroverts to view introverts as abnormal (it's easier for introverts to understand extroverts than vice versa). I think some of the reasons that introverts are unpopular are (a) they aren't going to put that energy into casual friendships that would make them popular and (b) introvertism is often mistaken to be snobbery. "Avon won't go have a drink with us after work; he's a snob." That would be the shallow assessment of Avon's behavior, made by those who don't understand him. > He values independence and > autonomy and is not interested in crusades or crusaders; this > makes people think that he doesn't care. Again, I think it only makes people who don't understand think that he doesn't care. Those who get to know him understand that he does in fact care. > In fact, he prefers people > think that he doesn't care; it avoids intimacy. He does, but shows > it only by respecting people's boundaries and autonomy and > doing the right thing without ever mentioning it. You'll notice > that he's far nicer to the people they meet planetside than to > his shipmates; this is a function of keeping the shipmates at > a distance emotionally. He doesn't really want to be rude > (beyond his natural arrogance, of course) but he *certainly* > doesn't want to be pals; he just wants to be left alone; but he's > stuck on this terrific ship with a gung-ho idealist and a bunch > of sheep. So he pushes people away with his nastiness. Agreed. But even as he is pushing his shipmates away, he comes to care about them and they come to care about him. I think part of that is the intimate living arrangement that forces them to get to know/understand each other, and part of it is the battlefield camaraderie that Dorian refers to when he says, " That's why I came for you. You care for each other. After what you've been through together, you couldn't fail to care for each other. Even you, Avon. > He has two problems with Blake: 1) Blake's idealism, and > willingness to risk other people's lives for his cause, and > 2) no matter how hard Avon pushes him away, Blake's not > going anywhere. Actually, they make a good team, with > Blake coming up with a plan, and Avon always seeing the > dangerous bits. Gradually, Avon starts to respect and > trust Blake the man; and Avon *needs* a friend. I agree that he has problems with Blake, as you mention. They make a good team, except that their differences make it a stressful team. I agree that Avon respects Blake. But I don't see that Avon *needs* a friend. Friendships are developing, but it's a natural process. I don't see Avon as needy. > Actually, > Vila is his friend, too, but Avon wants and needs Blake's > respect, because Blake demands more from him. I saw it more that Avon needed Blake's respect because he's the subordinate. He's not comfortable in that position. And the best way to establish/maintain the autonomy and independence that is very important to Avon is to make sure that Blake recognizes his value. > Blake sees something in Avon that no-one's seen in a very long time... > the basically moral person behind the nasty facade. I thought all of Avon's shipmates saw beyond that facade (though Vila may have been changing his mind after "Orbit"). But I think others have as well, before Avon became a rebel. Avon believed Anna saw his moral side. And I don't see Avon as so antisocial that he didn't have other pre-The Way Back friends who knew him for what he is. And liked him. > (Carol, as for your dislike of the idea of Avon 'needing' Blake-- > everyone 'needs' the approval of others-- it's the type and > degree of the need that makes it functional or dysfunctional. > A person who has *no* need for approval, and *no* desire to > please others would be a sociopath. I am acquainted with a > diagnosed sociopath; neither Avon nor Tarrant has that much > indifference to the feelings or approval of others.) I think this is might be a difference in how we view what motivates people, and it's probably another semantics thing. Maybe we can agree that Avon and Tarrant are most certainly not sociopaths. And they tend to do the right thing, whether it is out of a need to gain the approval of others or the approval of their own consciences. > But as much as Avon comes to have a personal attachment to > Blake, he *never* wants to be a either revolutionary or a follower; > he does trust Blake as a friend, but he is tired of all the running > and fighting, tired of being pushed into being 'one of the good guys' > which is why he pushes Blake to go on to Star One and get it > over with. I don't think it's so much that he's tired of being "one of the good guys" as that he's tired of being a follower, tired of dealing with someone who has such a basically different personality from his. That's a big strain on introvert. What Avon doesn't realize is that the only alternate for him is to be a leader, and that's going to have its own stresses. > Third-season metamorphosis aside, which touches on Tarrant, after > Anna's death, and with Blake apparently hurt and in trouble; he *has* > to go after Blake; but it's a trap. I think where we might differ here is the importance that it's Blake he's going after. I think Avon would have risked the same for any of his shipmates. He wasn't facing certain death by going into the trap. And he was so very careful to try to protect his other shipmates at the same time. I've read the comments on how Cally might not be as important to Avon because Avon didn't rush to Auron and/or Ultraworld. But I think that was typical of Avon. When Avon had Blake or Tarrant to "talk" him into doing the right thing, he could safely protest that the mission was too risky. But when he didn't have Blake or Tarrant to "talk" him into it, he did the right thing, making me believe he'd have done the right thing the other times as well (but he preferred to not show that side of himself, or to have his shipmates too much depending on his better nature). He went after everyone in Horizon. It was Avon who refused Vila's demand that they leave (because it was too risky) in Traitor and Sand. Tarrant was off getting into trouble; Avon didn't have him around to be the ship's conscience. > So now he's lost his memory of Anna, he'> s > lost Blake, he's lost Liberator, he's lost Cally -- pretty much the only > thing left is Vila -- the others are still too new to be emotionally > necessary to him -- Here's another disagreement, that Tarrant and Dayna didn't become as important to him as his other shipmates. I think they did. I agree with Dorian (see above). The third season crew became a tight-knit bunch. We see Avon socializing with them (playing games in Dawn and Children of Auron). We see how much he trusts them (Rumors). Trusts them so much in Terminal that he makes an extra effort to push them away, and it fails. And they've come to trust him. I think I especially appreciate how Avon and Tarrant relate in Death-Watch. While Tarrant has adapted into a far more social creature than Avon has, Tarrant is every bit as private as Avon. Tarrant doesn't want shipmates intruding on his private grief, and Avon recognizes that (he is a fellow private person; he knows not to push--something I very much like about Avon). He's able to show Tarrant sympathy without being intrusive. (Well, you knew I'd have to get a little Avon and Tarrant in here. ) > but he's not gonna take it anymore; at this point > he gets serious about the rebellion, because he no longer has a choice-- > "Winning is the only safety." Agreed that he's reached the point of "winning is the only safety." He's come to realize that a bolthole just can't be; he's too famous. > Everything goes wrong (why doesn't matter here); and the last couple > of blows are the worst: he damages his relationship with Vila at > Malodaar, and the betrayal by Zucan costs him the alliance and Xenon > base. But you're skipping over the positives of third and fourth season. That Avon has matured into someone who is willing to take responsibility for others. It doesn't rest easily on him. It's very stressful. But I do see that as positive development. Also, you aren't mentioning the working relationship he's developed with Tarrant. He confides in Tarrant and has accepted him as a trusted second-in-command. > He finds Blake and goes after him; he trusts Blake; together they > can accomplish what neither can do alone (he reasons). No, I don't think so. Avon is pretty stressed here; the entire crew is pretty stressed. I'm not sure that even Avon knew why he was going to GP. I think his motives might have changed and repeated in the manner of the patterns in a kaleidoscope. I think at times it was that he just wanted to be free of the responsibility of leadership. At other times it was that he had nothing better to do--lost a base, the alliance has failed, may as well go check out those rumors of Blake. And at other times it was a macabre curiosity--could Blake really have become a bounty hunter. > The irony here is that Avon has started to trust, and Blake has started > not to; Again, I've always found Avon's views on trust to be quite normal for his circumstances. He is very careful about trusting, and that's served him well. He has come to trust his shipmates. And at this point in time, the ones he's most recently been with are the ones he trusts most (over Blake). I agree that it is ironic that Blake has become so untrusting that he can't tell who to trust. But I feel sorry for Blake in that regard. I have a feeling he's been through some very bad betrayals to reach that point. Also, in regard to trust, I appreciate that Tarrant has picked up some of Avon's cynicism (while it's sad that he had to do that). Tarrant recognized that to trust was dangerous. He tells us in Volcano that he doesn't trust anyone. But while he voices the words, Tarrant does trust. And it gets him into trouble in City. By Blake, Tarrant has learned not to trust. Zukan's betrayal of his own daughter was the final nail that caused that to hit home. So Tarrant in "Blake" is very wary with Blake. He dances around Blake's questions and doesn't take him on trust. Which very much has him ripe for believing that Blake has betrayed them. And Avon is always ready to accept that anyone can betray him. Yet Blake, who doesn't trust, seems to overlook that others aren't going to be completely trusting. > but neither has completely transformed into the other. If they > had stayed themselves, or transformed completely, they would have > been okay; but Avon still has his fear of betrayal, even though he > basically trusts Blake; and Blake still trusts Avon, even though he's > started to question everybody else. If Avon were past his fear, or never > trusted Blake enough to feel betrayed, or if Blake had been wary enough > of Avon not to spook him with a gun in his hand, or if Blake had trusted > Tarrant, things would have turned out very differently. IMHO. I agree. But we are left with the situation as it stood. And one of the things that seems particularly relevant to me is that Blake never understood Avon to the core. Extroverts can be blind to the differences inherent in introverts. And one thing Blake never fully understood about Avon was how much Avon needed his own space (emotionally and physically). If he had understood that, he'd have known to stop when Avon told him to stop. And that alone might averted Avon's shooting Blake, though it might not have been a help in the long run. Blake's trust of Arlen has the Federation about to arrive. While I'm not saying this to make a claim that Tarrant was closer to Avon than Blake (because I think the relationships were very different, but equally respectful and caring), Tarrant did know to grant Avon space. Probably because Tarrant was basically a private person himself. > So, I'm looking at a Shakespearean-style tragedy themed on trust > and betrayal, only with two tragic heroes (Blake-Avon) instead of > one. If Avon doesn't have trust issues, or if he doesn't > 'need'/trust Blake, Gauda Prime makes no sense to me. I don't > buy Avon as a complete madman. I see him as being driven to > the wall by what he perceives to be the ultimate betrayal. I don't at all buy Avon as madman, either. I see him as a very stressed individual who was pushed to do something he wouldn't have done if he wasn't operating in a stressful situation. But I see it more than a tragedy of two people. I see the show as more than two important people. I see the dynamics of all of them, and the twists and turns of dynamics that influenced each of them. While so many of our discussions center on Avon and his friendships, there is so much more to discuss. All of them had special and very different relationships with each other. Why do we so often focus on Avon and x, or y, or z? We all have pretty set feelings on Avon and others. How important each of his shipmates were to him, for instance. I think he spread his caring around pretty evenly myself. What he'd have done for one, he'd have done for any of them. But beyond Avon, what about the others? Did the women have any special buddy-buddy relationships? Was Cally closer to Jenna or Dayna or close to neither of them? I do think Dayna and Soolin developed a special rapport. > Okay, that's my view of Avon (condensed version, believe it or not). > Is that anything like close enough to your Avon that your view of > Tarrant can illuminate my Tarrant? And that's my condensed version of Avon. I don't know how much our views of Avon and the Avon-Blake relationship interfere with our differing views of Tarrant. I do appreciate that you appreciate Tarrant's dry sense of humor (love the quote from Ultraworld ). > That ought to keep you busy for a while! For too long. It was fun, but I have to put the nose back to the grindstone. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:13:00 -0500 From: "Roberts, Patricia " To: "\"NetSurfCK@aol.com\" " , "\"blakes7@lysator.liu.se\" " , "\"Dangermouse\" " Subject: RE: [B7L] Cult TV guests Message-Id: <199903161718.SAA29444@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain He was also in "Counterstrike". Pat ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: [B7L] Cult TV guests Author: "Dangermouse" [SMTP:master@sol.co.uk] at L-3COM-CSE Date: 3/14/99 7:58 AM > > The name Simon MacCorkindale is sooooo familiar, but it's driving me crazy > that I can't place him. Manimal -- "When two hunters go after the same prey they usually end up shooting each other in the back - and we don't want to shoot each other in the back, do we?" http://members.aol.com/vulcancafe ------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 12:26:23 -0500 (EST) From: Claudia Mastroianni To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-Id: <199903161726.MAA10412@login5.fas.harvard.edu> Pherber@aol.com writes: : cmastr@fas.harvard.edu writes: : > Claudia (peering out from lurkerdom) : > "Three million years in the future, the only suriving human : > rebel is Kerr Avon, his only companions, a creature that evolved : > from his pet thief, and a hologram of his dead shipmate, Gan. : > Additional; it has been two months since we discovered the still : > working ancient cloning facilities in deep space and Avon is : > running out of Blake's to shoot." --John McKenzie : Claudia, this is hilarious! Is there more of it somewhere? Alas, no, to my recollection. That's a quote from a thread on this very mailing list from *years* ago (while I haven't been on continually since the list was formed, I was first on soon after its creation--Nov. '92). I could be misremembering and it could have been part of something larger, but I think it was just a spectacular one-liner. Is the author still around? John? Claudia -- My people have a saying, a man who trusts can never be betrayed, only mistaken. Life expectancy must be fairly short among your people. Cally and Avon, Blake's 7 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:01:02 +0000 From: "Wendy Duffield" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Heat Interview with PD Message-Id: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I thought people might be interested in the interview with PD from this weeks HEAT magazine especially those on t'other side of the pond. All copyright HEAT magazine UK Back Page Titled TV HEROES No 6 Paul Darrow, charismatic anti hero Avon in cult sci fi series Blake's 7 Twenty one years ago ,young actor Paul Darrow faced a difficult choice .. After myriad TV drama appearances (including a regular role as the Sheriff of Nottingham in ' The legends of Robin Hood') , Darrow was at a crossroads in his career. Should he take the role of Mercutio in Romeo and Juliet about to start at his local theatre in Guildford, or should he take a gamble on a weird new BBC Sci-fi drama ? "i had a interview for the role of an engineer" Darrow remembers, "So my agent told me to dress like an engineer, which to me, meant donning a tweed jacket and trying to look studious. But of course it wasn't like that at all." The character turned out to be the meanest,moodiest engineer of them all: Avon, the official hero's sidekick in Blake's 7. Darrow soon realized that his was potentially the juiciest part : "With a sidekick character like Avon for Spock you can more or less what you like". So he snubbed Guildford for this altogether more mysterious journey to outer space with a band of renegade outlaw. Darrow's Avon was the most enigmatic of the bunch : cold, often bitter and generally not a very nice guy. Darrow revelled in his characters ruthlessness: " i wanted to make sure that when i was shooting people, i wouldn't give them a chance, i would shoot people in the back and hit women if i needed to as i felt that was what a person would do to survive. And of course it caught on" It caught on in a big way, Blake's 7 became a prime-time drama hit for BBC1 running for four years. It was the closest British TV ever came to Star Trek and was perhaps even better than its slick American cousin. Indeed George Takei (Trek's Sulu) once told Darrow that the difference between Star Trek and Blake's 7 was that ALL of the Blake's 7 characters were beautifully defined. Darrow's anti hero sidekick even took centre stage for the third season, after Gareth Thomas's Blake left the show. " i said to Terry Nation (creator of the show) , 'Avon can't take charge of the crew..he's a loner,' and Terry said, "Well if he doesn't take over we won't have a show"' Now , 18 years after the final episode, Blake's 7 is a cult phenomenon and still very much a part of Darrow's life. Apart from regular screenings on UK Gold and TV stations all over the world, Radio 4 listeners can soon hear him in a brand new Blakes's7 adventure. Darrow is also busy touring in a Terry Pratchett stage play , as well as finding a nifty sideline in providing villainous voice overs for computer games. But Paul knows what he'll be most remembered for: "There isn't a city in Britain or , incredibly in the US where i won't meet a Blake's 7 fan,which is very useful if you want to know where the best place to eat is ..." The article has a current picture (b+w) with caption - Darrow still a great baddie A colour picture of the first season cast with Blake in his brown leather top with the wide arms standing slightly in front of the crew Caption - Beautifully defined characters, but their dress sense was rather unfortunate. Main inset picture of PD as Avon. Caption - Avon, the meanest, moodiest engineer of them all. Hope some of you found it interesting Wendy Wendy Duffield ################################################## MGB Roadster Owner MGOC member MG Fan ? See www.mgcars.org.uk ################################################### ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 13:04:34 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Gail wrote: > This is interesting. I had originally thought that Tarrant objected to Avon > mainly because he would have liked to have kept the Liberator for himself, > particularly since he had claimed it was his the first time we met him. Was > this claim just so much bluster? The claim was bluster in that it was a role Tarrant was playing to survive. He was assuming the role of a Federation officer and had to make noises like a Federation officer. He said what a Federation officer would say when finding civilians on a vessel he was commanding (commanding by right of salvage). Also, the claim was to protect Avon. From what happens later, it's pretty clear that Tarrant immediately knew Avon was part of the crew. (I think he even knew it was Avon--I thought the "Vila or Avon" line that he later dished out to Avon was an example of Tarrant's dry humor, a tease.) But Tarrant doesn't want Klegg to know who Avon is. (While Tarrant might not have immediately decided to throw in his lot with the Liberator crew, he did want to keep that option open. So it was important that Klegg not know who Avon was.) So Tarrant pretends that Avon is just a nobody, as opposed to somebody connected Liberator. It's also a warning, though Avon doesn't recognize it as a deliberate warning. He's telling Avon , if Avon hasn't already guessed, that you better not admit you are one of the original crew. > Did he really want to be led by someone > else, someone more like Blake, perhaps? Or did he just give up his claim as > impossible because he was outnumbered, but chafed at the fact that he had to > give it up to someone who led, but without a sense of purpose? The claim was never serious. He didn't expect anyone to turn Liberator over to him. He was probably relieved to be accepted as part of the crew. Put yourself in Tarrant's shoes. He's a former Federation officer. The Federation is going to stretch his skinny neck if it finds him. And most rebels are going to be very suspicious of a former Space Command officer. His options are rather limited. What he was probably looking for (and found) was trustworthy companions to watch his back while he watched theirs. Getting to fly the Liberator, the best ship in the galaxy, was a delightful bonus for a pilot. Having to deal with a ship that had no command structure wasn't so great. I don't think Tarrant was looking for a leader to follow or looking to be a commander of others. He was just looking for a chain of command. He'd have fallen into whatever place was available. Not blindly fallen in as a follower; he would have expected to have had his say. But he'd wouldn't have been obnoxious about it. He would have saved major objections for things that were really important to him. Otherwise, he would have been a vocal, but cooperative member of the crew. (Which is essentially what he became.) > One more question -- what sort of follower would Tarrant have been if he had > joined the crew when Blake was still in charge? the loyal, unquestioning > follower? or still the youngster wishing he was in charge? See above. Tarrant was never the youngster wishing he was in charge. He was the youngster wishing someone was in charge. It could have been him or someone else. I think we've all seen the responsibilities and stress that come with leadership of a rebel crew. As a military officer, Tarrant was already aware of what happens to leaders. I think a part of him might have been just as glad to have had the less stressful role. Which he might or might not have admitted to himself. Since Tarrant would never avoid responsibility, he might not be comfortable admitting to himself that he's just as glad not to have the responsibility of leadership. As much as Avon had to compartmentalize his inner emotions, Tarrant did it even more. He just hid it better, from himself and from others. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 18:33:52 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Ooh, I've binged...and red leather Message-ID: In message <19990316085332.20250.qmail@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton writes >Julia writes re we-can-all-guess-who in red leather trouser: > >at work when my 'puter died on me just before Christmas, and I haven't >found the backup disk yet . > >Oooohhh. When you do find them, is there any way you can share? > They're on Judith's website, in the gallery. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:14:53 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Dayna dynamics (long) Message-ID: <6025d59c.36eeadad@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've been thinking about the relationships that Dayna, Soolin, Tarrant, and Vila had among themselves in the third and fourth seasons. So, starting from the beginning of the third season: Dayna and Tarrant: They seemed to form a close friendship from the beginning of the third season. They were both new on board, and considerably younger than Cally, Vila and Avon. Perhaps they felt somewhat isolated by the fact that they were new. In "Volcano", they were the ones who went to Obsidian to investigate the rumors about Blake and to try to establish a planetary base. They work together quite well in "Ultraworld" and in "Traitor"; they are very much partners in mischief when they pretend the communicator isn't working. I think things changed a bit after "Stardrive" when Avon decided to use Dayna and Vila as unwitting bait and Tarrant went along with the plan. Tarrant went along with the plan because he knew they were all dead without a new stardrive. Dayna wasn't stupid. I think she knew what had happened after the fact and understood why Tarrant went along with it, but they weren't quite as close as they had been. In "Animals," Tarrant showed no jealousy of Justin; his concern was that he had had to leave Dayna behind. "Sand" seemed to really put a chill into the relationship; I think Dayna found it difficult to forgive Tarrant for sleeping with Servalan, their worst enemy. Tarrant also seemed to be a little hurt by this, but realized there was little he could do at that point. I also don't think jealousy had anything to do with it. Dayna showed no jealousy of Zeeona in "Warlord." If anything, she seemed amused by the relationship. I think they were close friends who had decided to leave romance out of it, lest they spoil the friendship. Dayna and Vila: They seemed to enjoy teasing each other, but real affection seemed to underlie the banter. In "Death-Watch," Vila makes a comment about he was going to be thrilled no matter what follwed by "Dayna, have a drink." Dayna responds with a comment that what she liked best about him was his subtlety. However, when he makes his remark about Servalan shooting a blind man in the back, he apologizes very sincerely to Dayna and she forgives him. Vila was capable of giving as good as he got in a verbal exchange and I think she knew that. This is all I have time for at the moment. More later. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 19:31:05 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? (was - Assassin) Message-ID: <00bc01be6fe3$acf8d300$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral said - >All humor is based on pain of some kind Blimey I couldn't disagree more. This is one of those myths that everyone repeats, but it doesn't seem to stand up to a moment's examination. I don't think anyone has ever really understood what makes people laugh. But - fools rush in - so here goes. To me it seems that humour is anything that jumps your mind off it's tracks. As if a train derailed but instead of crashing it just jumped across to another line and went zipping off in an unexpected direction. It is something that frees you from the 'normal' predictable way your thoughts might run on, and makes you see everything in a new way. The quicker and more extreme the jump the funnier (or so it seems to me). Sometimes the new way of seeing is cruel or 'taboo'. But (I think) it's the newness not the cruelty that's funny. If I see a proud person made to look stupid it's the contrast that's funny, not the pain they suffer. If it was the pain that was funny then the most painful things you ever saw would also be the most funny, and things that didn't hurt wouldn't be funny at all. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 22:40:16 -0000 From: "Jonathan" To: "Neil Faulkner" , "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <000201be70b8$6f6d9ae0$b9cf883e@ming> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Mistral wrote: >>I lost family to WWII. I suppose you did as well. I, for one, can still >enjoy >>the bumbling Nazis on Hogan's Heroes and in the Indiana Jones movies. I >>appreciate the thought you put into things, Neil, but IMHO, you really >ought to >>consider lightening up. You only get one chance at life, no point being >>unnecessarily miserable. > Neil replied: > No casualties in my family that I know of. Maybe that's why I regard >'bumbling Nazis' as a gross insult to the German people. How would you > feel about watching it in a room full of Germans? You think it would be better if they were competent genocidal thugs instead ? If there is a danger in Nazi's for laughs, it's in trivializing what they did to other people. Nazi doesn't equal German - very few modern day Germans would feel insulted by be-littling references to Adolf and co. I'd feel less awkward watching The Producers or 'Allo 'Allo with any of the Germans I know than I would a documentary on Auschwitz, or a standard WW2 film - or The Boat. Sometimes humour is a weapon, sometimes it's a safety valve, sometimes it's a way of normalizing incongruous or painful truths. And very often it really is just for entertainment. Yes, some jokes are dangerous or insulting. And it's nice that you worry. But I think this time you can relax. Jonathan Coupe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:10:57 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Dayna dynamics (long) Message-ID: <74d8b4e.36eed6f1@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tiger M wrote: > I think things changed a bit after "Stardrive" when Avon decided to use Dayna > and Vila as unwitting bait and Tarrant went along with the plan. Tarrant > went > along with the plan because he knew they were all dead without a new > stardrive. Dayna wasn't stupid. I think she knew what had happened after > the > fact and understood why Tarrant went along with it, but they weren't quite > as > close as they had been. I hate to do quoting and not have much to say, but I really liked all of this so much that I had to acknowledge it. I thought this part about "Stardrive" was especially perceptive, and something I hadn't thought about. I also like the poignancy that they might have been attracted to each other but decided to keep it platonic. Also good Vila-Dayna stuff. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 17:10:56 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Phoenix 4 Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Narelle, it's great to hear that Phoenix 4 will be available in print form. Joanne wrote: >(preparing for more drool to emanate from Carol ) The art is lovely, but my personal taste actually runs to more subtle exposure. :) I like angles, teasing placement of limbs, etc. It's hard to explain. There's a an illo of Tarrant where you only see a shoulder, an arm and part of his back, and it's as much what you don't see that makes it appealing. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:26:49 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <19990316222654.23391.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >Also, the claim was to protect Avon. From what happens later, it's >pretty clear that Tarrant immediately knew Avon was part of the >crew. Of course. It appears that he'd been watching everyone as well as was humanly possible. Klegg was having difficulty accepting him, so Tarrant had to watch himself as well as the Federation troops. Then along come two others. Tarrant isn't entirely stupid, and if we accept that he was leading a life of crime after deserting, he'd have been well advised to keep up with whatever news was on offer. Consequently, if he had done his homework, he'd know none of Blake's crew were dark-skinned. That ruled out Dayna as a crew member. But the man would bear watching, just in case he turned out to be Blake, at the very least. > So Tarrant pretends that Avon is just a nobody, as opposed to >somebody connected Liberator. It's also a warning, though Avon >doesn't recognize it as a deliberate warning. He's telling Avon , if >Avon hasn't already guessed, that you better not admit you are one >of the original crew. Maybe I should have said Vila at the very least earlier! Not that you are suggesting that Avon is stupid, but it would have taken a little more watchfulness to discern who it might've been. I'm sure Tarrant could've worked out it wasn't Blake very quickly - if he was that cluey, he'd be aware that the description didn't fit this man he was watching. A little more time, and he found out this stranger was too competent to be Vila (under stress, that is). >The claim was never serious. He didn't expect anyone to turn >Liberator over to him. He was probably relieved to be accepted as >part of the crew. This is interesting. This is a Tarrant that I can understand. Not that I'd even try to make that claim, in the first place. >The Federation is going to stretch his skinny neck if it finds him. His perfectly proportioned neck, surely? Carol, how could you? >I don't think Tarrant was looking for a leader to follow or looking to be >a commander of others. He was just looking for a chain of >command. He'd have fallen into whatever place was available. Not >blindly fallen in as a follower; he would have expected to have had >his say. But he'd wouldn't have been obnoxious about it. He would >have saved major objections for things that were really important to >him. Otherwise, he would have been a vocal, but cooperative >member of the crew. (Which is essentially what he became.) Oh dear. I can see this. Now I really am worried. >I think we've all seen the responsibilities and stress that come with >leadership of a rebel crew. As a military officer, Tarrant was already >aware of what happens to leaders. I think a part of him might have >been just as glad to have had the less stressful role. Here my sympathy for Vila cuts in, suggesting he should've understood Vila's position a bit better. But that's probably a script level fault, seeing as Tarrant was originally designed to be older than Stephen Pacey; and an older man might've continued to behave toward Vila as Tarrant did in "City" for much longer, or ignored him altogether to the detriment of the crew as a whole. Casting a younger man might've been the best thing they could've done for the character - leaving room for change. Regards Joanne (worrying, after this post, about the possibilities of the Tarrant Nostra coming after her - to induct her) Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Mar 1999 14:54:32 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Phoenix 4 Message-ID: <19990316225433.24241.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >The art is lovely, but my personal taste actually runs to more subtle >exposure. :) I like angles, teasing placement of limbs, etc. It's hard >to explain. There's a an illo of Tarrant where you only see a >shoulder, an arm and part of his back, and it's as much what you >don't see that makes it appealing. >Carol Mc Yes, I understand, I think - concealing and teasing sometimes being more revealing than the full monty. But I didn't know that when I suggested further oceans of drool were coming our way. I rather like that picture of Avon asleep. But then, I would, wouldn't I? Regards Joanne Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #102 **************************************