From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #108 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/108 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 108 Today's Topics: RE: [B7L] Rookie fans [B7L] Star Cops better than B7!!!! [B7L] astronaut test [B7L] Re: Astronaut Test [B7L] In Encouragement of Filk.. Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] worst opening Re: [B7L] Re: what's so funny, etc. FW: [B7L] Rookie Fans Re: [B7L] Arboreal Avons [B7L] off-topic hoax mail Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) [B7L] Redemption photos Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] what's so funny? [B7L] Redemption Cricket Report [B7L] Re: SC: Redemption Cricket Report Re: [B7L] Re: Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 21:06:03 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB72@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Rueben said: > Fast forward to today. I can't have a discussion about Star Trek with > most younger fans I meet. I get too worked up. The Original Trek, is now > the "moldy" Trek. Dated, boring 60's crap. > The Next Generation is good, but they'd rather watch Voyager and harp on > at length about how great a charecter Cups of D (opps I mean 7 of 9) is. > I like DS9 and Voyager very much, but when Nichelle Nichols walked on the stage at a con I visited last year, I nearly cried. And I am normally not an emotional person. She was on stage for two hours and I can assure you that she was at least as popular as Kate Mulgrew (who was pretty much the star at that con). Now maybe this is simply a difference between fandoms in Europe and the US, but the way I see it, is that new stuff does not detract from a good show and in fact helps to keep its fandom alive. There may be no B7 spin-offs (if you don't count B5 ), but there are radio and audio plays and zines that give us new chances to see (in our minds eyes) new adventures of our favourite people. And if the BBC decided that it would be a good idea to let a whole new set of rebels take up where our original heroes left off, then I for one would be watching. > He relates a few horror stories that > fellow authors have run into with fans, ranging from horridly rude to > someone actually throwing a cup of warm vomit into Alan Dean Foster's > face. > Yearghhh. I don't think we have to worry about rookie fans (or newbies, as some of them prefer to be called, hi Cynthia) doing anything like this. It takes time to become that totally screwed up. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:08:47 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator , Space City Subject: [B7L] Star Cops better than B7!!!! Message-ID: <36F2AECD.BF259C74@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The 50th issue of SFX out this week has a top 50 best SF shows of all time compiled by a panel including various SF writers etc. Blake's 7 comes in at a disappointing 16th, behind Star Cops, which made 13th. Dr Who won of course, but B7's lowly position is even more annoying when you see Quatermass at 5, Thunderbirds at 6, UFO at 11 and Sapphire & Steel at 15. Other notables include Survivors at 19, Xena at 22 (Hercules doesn't make the top 50), Buffy at 23, Hitchhikers Guide at 28 and Buck Rogers at 35. The list is going to be controversial when crap like Earth: Final Conflict gets in and an excellent show like Stargate SG-1 doesn't. Anyway, I'll forgive SFX anything for what they've done on page 23 of the main mag (the top 50 is a separately numbered pullout). I'm not going to tell you what they've done but I'm sure everyone on this list will love it. I don't want to spoil the surprise. We can discuss it when most people have had a chance to see it. It's brill, it really is. -- cheers Steve Rogerson "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 20:33:59 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] astronaut test Message-ID: <000501be7248$05fc86c0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a very much simpler personality and intelligence test available on the Omni magazine web site. This test is designed to test whether you have 'the right stuff' for outer space. Allegedly. www.omnimag/machine/test It's very quick to take. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 06:57:03 +1000 From: Taina Nieminen To: "'B7'" Subject: [B7L] Re: Astronaut Test Message-ID: <01BE729E.DF5743F0@TENZIL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks Alison, but the URL should be: http://www.omnimag.com/machine/test/ Taina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:20:27 +1100 (EST) From: kat@welkin.apana.org.au (Kathryn Andersen) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (Blake's 7 list) Subject: [B7L] In Encouragement of Filk.. Message-Id: Content-Type: text Upon Hearing A Friend's Desire To Never Write Filk Again... ----------------------------------------------------------- (you know who you are, you enjoyed it, I thought maybe the List would like it too) (with apologies to W. Shakespeare) To filk or not to filk? That is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or take up arms against a sea of seriousness, and by opposing, end them? To filk, to write; No more; and, by a word to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural frowns That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To filk, to write; To write: perchance to be known: ay, there's the rub; For in those words of filk what repute may come When we have placed ourselves before the world Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes calamity of so long silence For who would bear the whips and scorns of time, The boring hours, the proud man's discourse, The pangs of hot debate, the mail's delay, The insolence of trekkies, and the spurns That patient merit of the unworthy takes, When he himself might the silence break With a bare keyboard? Who would fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after filk, The undiscovered country from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have, Than to fly to others that we know not of? K. Avonsen -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 19:00:56 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: In message , Mac4781@aol.com writes >Granted we are never given canonical ages on most of the characters (and one >can speculate on a wide variety of possibilities), but the overall >presentation of Tarrant seems to indicate (to me) someone quite a bit younger >than Avon, someone to match the age of the actor who got the part. Since it's >basically in the eye of the beholder and I'm short on time, I won't repeat the >references that indicate (for me) that Tarrant was young. > Good lord, for once I can agree with Carol about Tarrant! I certainly get the impression that the finalised version of Tarrant is meant to be about the same age as the actor, and that odd references such as the Kairos shuttle are left over from the original casting policy. Sheelagh and Joe's book supports this - it's stated somewhere in there that the original idea was to cast someone in his mid-thirties, and then in walked Steven Pacy for an audition and out went the idea about Tarrant being 35ish. By that time several of the scripts had already been written, at least in draft form, and there wasn't the time to go over them with a fine tooth comb for references to a 35-year-old. The same thing happened in early series four, where some of the things that go on (such as Justin's paedophile tendencies) make a lot more sense when you consider that the draft scripts of early episodes were being written under the assumption that Jan Chappell was going to continue working on the series. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 09:10:44 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <19990320091044.A1763@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Mar 19, 1999 at 11:05:40AM -0600, Reuben Herfindahl wrote: > > Interesting point, since you bring up Trek, I'd like to use it as an > example. First of all I'd like to point out that I am an original Trek fan. > To me the Next Generation was fun, DS9 is interesting and Voyager is heresy. [snip] > bigger than I would have guessed. Fast forward to today. I can't have a > discussion about Star Trek with most younger fans I meet. I get too worked > up. The Original Trek, is now the "moldy" Trek. Dated, boring 60's crap. > The Next Generation is good, but they'd rather watch Voyager and harp on at > length about how great a charecter Cups of D (opps I mean 7 of 9) is. [snip] > How does this relate to B7 and rookie or newbie fans? Well, the original > Trek certainly isn't gaining too many of them. > What happens if B7 is in someway reborn, or new fans quit coming. The old > connections will hold for a while I suppose, but eventually the number of > people who know what you are talking about diminishs. I have a counterexample. The Tomorrow People. The original series was made in the 70s, then they did a remake in the 90s. But unlike Trek, if you find a Tomorrow People fan, you aren't likely to find them so divided. There are those that are fans of both series, and those that are fans of one or the other series, but the attitude is more one of taste than of considering the other series as heresy. And one of the lovely things I find in TP fandom is that you get the older original series fans conveying their love of the original series, and the younger fans get interested, want to borrow tapes and see it. The younger fen are more in the position of simply not having seen the original series, as distinct from having seen it and not liked it. But they're *interested*. Maybe it's just because Tomorrow People fandom is so small (indeed, minute) that it's great to find a fan of either series at all, so it's more welcoming? It makes for interesting discussions, because you've got a mixture of fans who are 30+ (who saw the original series when it aired first time) and fans who are in their teens (who saw the new series when it aired first time) and you get different perspectives. It's kinda strange being in a fandom where at least half the people are a lot younger than you, as compared to Blake's 7 fandom where most of the people are around my age, or at least, the spead of ages is smoother. So, if there was a remake of Blake's 7, that doesn't necessarily mean that original Blake's 7 fandom would die. Kathryn A. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 22:10:09 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <1lT5voABts82Ewkw@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message , Una McCormack writes >No doubt there were people at Redemption who thought I looked a >total tit draped over Iain and screaming words like slash, probe and >penetrate. But I enjoyed myself. Bugger embarrassment. And for those who wish to decide for themselves whether Una looked a total tit: http://www.blakes-7.demon.co.uk/Convention/Redemption/F15.jpeg -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 15:31:10 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] worst opening Message-ID: <19990319233111.28343.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain From: Calle Dybedahl Thanks Calle. I'm afraid I have *no* idea how to put together a web-page (come on, I still have problems some days with the on-off thingy!!) but as I said, if anyone would like to, or to read the entire endearingly appalling competition, check out Jan-Feb 95 on lysator. First, one that didn't make the top five, but I have a guilty fondness for... 'Come sit right down and you'll hear a tale, a tale of a fateful trip, that started from the planet Earth aboard a prison ship... Blake was a revolution man, Avon wasn't sure, the whole chain-gang escaped and took a four series tour... Running from the government in a 'convenient alien ship, sniping at each other every minute of the trip... They disappeared in a plot hole in an episode called 'Blake', with Avon, the pilot too, the gunslinger and the thief, the telepath, and every other continuity reference we can throw in, in syndication for the rest of their lives... ' Now - the top five. In reverse order... #5 'Three million years in the future, the only suriving human rebel is Kerr Avon, his only companions, a creature that evolved form his pet thief, and a hologram of his dead shipmate, Gan. Additional; it has been two months since we discovered the still working ancient cloning facilities in deep space and Avon is running out of Blake's to shoot.' - John McKenzie #4 Entirely too late, Avon realised that the illuminated prong of the Liberator handguns should never be inserted rectally. - Gareth Randall #3 Ignoring the pain that threatened to overwhelm his senses, that howled agony through every fibre of his being, making him wish he'd never been born, Avon crawled with agonising slowness through the alligator infested swamp, eyes peeled for a sighting of yet another of the ravenous man-eating beasts that had already ripped the flesh from his leg, knowing that if he was caught once more before he made his way to safety, there would be nothing left of him but bones bleaching whitely in the sun, knowing too that he would have failed in his ultimate objective, that he would have have lost (albeit unintentionally - but when had that ever made any difference) the one being who meant more to him than any other in the known universes, the one entity to whom he had unwillingly given, but given none the less, his undying love and affection, the one person to whom he had finally committed himself after so long trying to resist the fatal attraction, the one thing that he knew would never betray him or let him down - somewhere in this swamp, Avon had lost his teddy bear... -Judith Proctor #2 He had finally identified the strange noise: Blake stood in the door to the flight deck and stared in horror at Avon, Jenna, Cally, and Vila as they rocked back and forth and sang along quietly with the figure on the main screen, 'I love you...You love me... ' -Robin AND THE WINNER WAS... #1 Kerr Avon wiped away the tears of happiness streaming down his cheeks, as he watched the unicorns gambolling joyously with the deer and rabbits, while ecstatic fairies darted and weaved between them. It was good to be home, and it was even better to be able to be here with his friends by his side, he thought mistily ... -Karen McAllister Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 16:00:05 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: what's so funny, etc. Message-ID: <36F2E504.5BDF2AF7@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 22:32:55 -0800 mistral@ptinet.net writes: > >Kathryn, maybe you'd better not read this until you > >finish those stories you're working on ;) > Avon knew he could trust Cally to stop the alien from killing him, even > when she couldn't act to save herself. Because she did it for _him_ and > not one of the others, that seems to state her feelings for him go pretty > deep. And Avon, whether he's comfortable with it or not, knows this. Check the scene between Dayna and Vila near the end. Dayna isexplaining to Vila that Cally wouldn't let the alien kill Avon not because it was Avon, but because he was the only one who understood what was going on well enough to back it into that particular corner -- she wouldn't have let it kill *any* of them, but only Avon understood that well enough to make the attempt. > To be honest, it surprises me how much of B7 is open to interpretation. > I see these things and think "That's what it meant. What else could it > mean?" But someone else sees the same scene in a completely different > way. But isn't that what makes it fun? :-) I read a Sarcophagus story a couple of weeks age (apologies to the author, whose name I don't remember offhand) which gave as the motivation for Cally's tears (not the look between A-C, but when she walks onto the flight deck) as her reaction to having kissed Avon vicariously via his embrace with the alien, and her realization that she could never have that experience for herself. Everybody sees something different. Fun, fun, fun! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 15:39:29 +1030 From: "Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001" To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: FW: [B7L] Rookie Fans Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > This is the usual in fandom, not the exeption. The big difference here is > that elitism is relativly rare! Don't worry, soon you too will be able to > pick on younger fans. > > Martin > > When I first read this I thought it was a joke. Then I realized it's for > real. > > Admitedly, I'm a new fan, I'm in my early twenties, I'M AN ENTHUSIASTIC NEW > FAN. And, I can ssure you I have enough people skills and common courtesy to > treat my favorite actor with respect (if I should ever meet him). > > I dearly love Blake's 7 and I'll continue to enjoy it on my own, but THIS is > not what I expected from fandom. > > Congratulations! You've eliminated one rookie fan. > > Cynthia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 13:02:53 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Arboreal Avons Message-ID: <000601be729f$6b6e2660$be448cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >--Penny "Currently Soliciting Funds To Come Over To England And Track Down >Paul Darrow And Corner Him And Ask Him If He Were A Tree What Kind Of Tree >He Would Be" Dreadful Well, if this were Space City I might suggest hornbeam. Or wild service tree. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 18:52:52 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] off-topic hoax mail Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I've discovered a new type of hoax mail recently. Two good examples have hit my mailbox this week, both from well-meaning friends. They both operate on the principle that forwarding the message to other people will generate money. in one case, all recipients of the message will go into a lottery for a prize, and the other says that a dontation to a specific charity will be made for everyone the letter is forwarded to. Please note that it is *impossible* for someone else to trace who you pass a message onto. This means that the promised lottery or cash donation simply is not going to happen. If you get a letter promising something like this, it is a HOAX. Don't forward it. Bin it! Judith Calle - apologies for taking up list space with this one, but if it saves us all just one posting about Disneyworld or little girls dying of cancer or anything else, then maybe it's worth it. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:02:58 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <19990320080258.5014.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain One I forgot - a breif moment in the opening fight in 'Hostage' - AVON: Zen, can we withstand an attack of this magnitude? ZEN: No information. AVON: Thank you, that's very helpful. It's the blandly polite way he says it... Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 00:16:26 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <19990320081627.180.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Mistral, did the following answer to your query (which I thought I sent to the list several days ago) turn up *on* the list? My email turned a bit dodgy after I did send it, and I haven't seen it come back. Not that I think you're devastated by not hearing my words of - er - wisdom, but a good question deserves an answer... Anyone who DID get my post on moral/amoralAvon, please forgive and delete... *************************** Mistral writes (after on of my posts): Sally, I'd like some clarification here: what exactly do you meanwhen you say amoral? What I do see is him having a completely *different* set of morals from the average person, which he *never* violates. Okaaayyy...first of all, let me confirm that I dearly love the man, because I do get the distinct feeling I see him as a much darker person than you do. I like him that way. I see Avon as both moral in some ways (and at some times) and amoral in others, and it's not always easy to see where the border lies. When you say 'a person would do whatever is convenient or strikes one's fancy at the moment' - no, that's not what he is or I mean. Avon is amoral in that he will do almost anything that he sees as necessary to ensure his own survival or protect his own interests. (It's the 'almost' that is important, I'll get to that later.) Yes, we all agree he has principles - he'd be intolerable if he didn't - but what *are* they? *What* values won't he violate? He's quite unabashed about his criminal tendencies. He's quite prepared to accept the deaths of innocent people - in Star One the 'you can wade in blood up to your armpits' speech always struck me as serious, he doesn't care about all those people as long as he gets the finish he desperately wants (after all, we didn't hear any qualms in Pressure Point). And In Traitor - 'even if they are executing the entire population, YOU are not to get involved. ' He's prepared to work with a criminal organisation (Shadow) or his worst enemy (Gold). Despite fanfic assumptions, he does too lie, or at least use the truth creatively (the end of Gambit, and the whole embezzlement, which I *don't* think he nearly pulled off without some fairly blatant deceit). He cares about his crewmates - enough to risk his life for them - but he's quite prepared to use or deliberately endanger them (and Orbit proved he would kill them as well). We've just had a thread on which people Avon would actually, cold-bloodedly, die for, and it came down to Anna and (maybe, IMO definitely) Blake. He certainly doesn't care if he hurts their feelings - it's lucky they're a tough bunch, because the insults can be lacerating. On the side of morality? Avon will not break his word once given (so he doesn't give it lightly). His reaction to Dorian indicates he is disgusted by degeneracy. While he will lie, he's blisteringly honest about himself, to the point of exaggerating his darker side. He *will* do his best to rescue the others, even at the risk of his own life. When he gives loyalty (to Blake) or love (to Anna) it's absolute, and he will die for them. His cruelty is verbal only, and I don't believe he would ever deliberately, physically hurt someone without what he saw as good reason. The point for me is that Avon's moral values - and even more, the clashes between the moral and amoral in him - are tied up very much with his relationships with other people. When he does the right thing, it's rarely because it *is* right, it's usually because he is trying to help/protect someone. It's so much fun watching him; for someone as cold and ostensibly self-sufficient as he is, he gets tripped up an awful lot of the time by his care for people he doesn't admit he cares about... *************************** Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:22:11 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Space City Subject: [B7L] Redemption photos Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII There are now another 40 odd photos from Redemption loaded up on my web page. Thanks, Julia, Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 01:55:15 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <36F37082.C8C89365@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral, did the following answer to your query (which I thought I sent > to the list several days ago) turn up *on* the list? My email turned a > bit dodgy after I did send it, and I haven't seen it come back. Not that > I think you're devastated by not hearing my words of - er - wisdom, but > a good question deserves an answer... No, I haven't seen it. Thanks for resending; after all, if I didn't want the answer, I wouldn't have asked the question, so to speak.... > Mistral writes (after on of my posts): > Sally, I'd like some clarification here: what exactly do you meanwhen > you say amoral? What I do see is him having a completely > *different* set of morals from the average person, which he *never* > violates. > > Okaaayyy...first of all, let me confirm that I dearly love the man, > because I do get the distinct feeling I see him as a much darker person > than you do. I like him that way. Tee hee. Oddly enough, I don't think you *do* see him as much darker than I do. I think you may be interpreting *my* idea of moral behaviour as lighter than it is. I have between no problem and very little problem with all of the behaviours you use below as examples of Avon's 'amorality'. The only shade of difference I see is that you interpret the source of the decision a little differently than I do. And I think the word amoral is part of the problem. My dictionary says 'without moral sensibility' or 'refraining from making moral judgments'. But what I actually see going on here (on the screen and in your description) is simply a set of values *quite* different from the average person, particularly the average 20th-century person. > He's quite unabashed about his criminal tendencies. Agreed. And most of us nowadays would have a problem with that. But it's quite clear that the Federation is corrupt. There are many people who do not consider it immoral to commit criminal acts against a corrupt government (Robin Hood, for example, not that I am saying that Avon was playing people's champion.) That is, however, in many people's eyes, completely acceptable behaviour. It can also lead to a casual attitude regarding criminal behaviour generally, so this doesn't necessarily make him seriously outside the morality of his time and culture. Once you have a price on your head, legality is dispensable. > He's quite prepared > to accept the deaths of innocent people - in Star One the 'you can wade > in blood up to your armpits' speech always struck me as serious, he > doesn't care about all those people as long as he gets the finish he > desperately wants I agree he's serious. He's perfectly willing to let people be responsible for and suffer the consequences of their own actions -- even when he thinks those actions are terminally stupid. I agree with him. I guess you'll just have to call *me* amoral. I don't believe in protecting people from themselves; I consider *that* immoral. > (after all, we didn't hear any qualms in Pressure > Point). And In Traitor - 'even if they are executing the entire > population, YOU are not to get involved. ' Of course not. He was looking at the big picture. It was a great deal more important to get the Federation's new weapon and get away than to protect one planet. Not to mention the fact that Avon was not responsible for the planet or anybody on it. I call this smart strategy, not amorality. > He's prepared to work with a criminal organisation (Shadow) He thought this was a stupid idea. Blake insisted. > or his worst > enemy (Gold). Actually, he wanted to kill her and didn't get to. > Despite fanfic assumptions, he does too lie, or at least > use the truth creatively (the end of Gambit, and the whole embezzlement, > which I *don't* think he nearly pulled off without some fairly blatant > deceit). Yes, using the truth creatively is what I mean when I have said 'lying without lying'; I'm very good at it myself (although I do try to avoid it these days); it's consistent with INTx, a basically honest personality type; and you'll notice he's *not* very good at a flat-out lie, unless he's trying to make himself look worse than he is; perhaps he believes those. > He cares about his crewmates - enough to risk his life for them - but > he's quite prepared to use or deliberately endanger them (and Orbit > proved he would kill them as well). You have to decide to take those kinds of risk when you're at war; the fact that Blake was fighting for 'truth and justice' and Avon was fighting for survival doesn't change the fact that it was a war. Of all of the rather nasty decisions Avon had to make regarding risking people or letting them die, Orbit is the *only* one that bothers me; and it's not the choice he made that bothers me so much as the horror of actually having to make it. I agree that he has the values you mention. > The point for me is that Avon's moral values - and even more, the > clashes between the moral and amoral in him - are tied up very much with > his relationships with other people. When he does the right thing, it's > rarely because it *is* right, it's usually because he is trying to > help/protect someone. It's so much fun watching him; for someone as cold > and ostensibly self-sufficient as he is, he gets tripped up an awful lot > of the time by his care for people he doesn't admit he cares about... Right. I still think it's semantics. When he commits, he commits. He doesn't do it very fast or very often. I see that as partly those trust issues raising their head, and partly sensibility. The more people you offer your loyalty to, the more those loyalties will be divided. Also, the more they can be used against you. I don't see him as having loyalties to abstract concepts like 'humanity', 'goodness', 'equality', etc. This doesn't bother me particularly. I can only think of two people I'd lay down my life for; I don't give my loyalty easily, but when I do it's absolute; I believe in staying out of other people's way and prefer they stay out of mine; in short, the things you've listed here as making him 'dark' seem perfectly sensible to me; 'I never could stand heroes.' ;) Thanks again for resending your answer; I enjoyed it. Grins, Mistral -- "I didn't come here to be...flattered."--Avon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 02:14:00 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <36F374E8.F72BE562@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a little addendum to the last post: I think what we're both saying is that Avon's loyalties and moralities have more to do with *personal* loyalties and moralities than with *societal* loyalties and moralities. If you see that as dark, then that's where the difference is. I find his attitudes refreshingly honest and sensible. Mistral the Amoral mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > Sally Manton wrote: > > > The point for me is that Avon's moral values - and even more, the > > clashes between the moral and amoral in him - are tied up very much with > > his relationships with other people. > Right. I still think it's semantics. When he commits, he commits. He > doesn't do it very fast or very often. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 05:14:17 EST From: AdamWho@aol.com To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk, mistral@ptinet.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <363d4494.36f374f9@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-03-18 05:54:11 EST, alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk writes: << I think the first words that made me laugh out loud (dredging back into my own personal ancient history) were Vila describing the architecture on Cygnus Alpha as 'early mania >> The first that made me laugh is the Jenna\Vila moment in Space Fall, after Raiker slapped her. Vila: You can't afford to be choosy now. Jenna. Why else would I be talking to you? An exchange between Avon\Blake after the failed mutiny also made me laugh. Blake: It was my fault. Avon: We know. Blake: I'll try and do better next time. ------------------------------ Date: 20 Mar 1999 11:26:06 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Redemption Cricket Report Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Since the vorlons turned out to be really sore losers, the scorer of the cricket match between the Blake's XI and the Babylon XI has had to go into hiding in the frozen north. Never one to be frightened by overwhelming force, though, she has arranged for this report to be smuggled out from her hidingplace: Here at last is the short report on the cricket match played at Redemption at the end of February. If you want a long, comic report like Chris wrote on Blake's XI v the Federation XI after Who's 7, you'll have to sit her down and forcefeed her five seasons of Babylon 5. Harriet BABYLON XI v BLAKE'S XI At Drazi Home World, February 27, 28, 2260. Blake's XI won by 196 runs. Toss: Babylon XI. Blake made the wrong call, and Sinclair asked him to bat on a hard-baked pitch. The rebels were quickly in trouble when Susan Ivanova removed Tarrant with her first delivery, courtesy of a spectacular catch in the deep by Marcus Cole. Soon after, Lyta Alexander bowled Zen, beaten for sheer pace, aqnd Jenna watched helplessly as Blake and Gan were stumped by Kosh - a feat all the more remarkable as the ambassador wicket-keeper often seemed to have been at the opposite end only seconds before. When Avon survived only two balls, the score was a desperate 96 for five. Jenna finally regained the strike and brought up her fifty with three straight sixes. But umpire Servalan then answered a tricky lbw appeal in the affirmative, and Jenna returned to the pavilion for a gallant 52. Soolin, supported by a quickfire 32 from Dayna, struck out for her own fifty before Garibaldi's off-break tricked her and she too was leg-before, giving him a third wicket. Blake's XI were all out for a hasty 231, Lyta picking up four wickets for 64. Replying for Babylon XI, Mollari made a dashing start. He saw off two confident appeals from Soolin, both rejected by Servalan, with whom he was noticed exchanging pleasantries - evidently leading to the surprise announcement of their marriage the following evening. But next over, a ball from Dayna, who had already beguiled his opening partner G'Kar, brushed the stumps and a bail was partly dislodged. It never actually dropped, but Cartagia instantly raised his finger to give Mollari out. Meanwhile, Delenn, Captain Sinclair (for a golden duck) and Marcus fell in quick succession to Soolin, speeding in from the Green End. Sheridan held the innings together with a forthright 55, but Kosh seemed determined to avoid the action while wickets continued to tumble. Lennier, at No. 10, ran up a dogged 39 before Orac stumped him off Avon's bowling - though mysteriously one replay seemed to show Kosh, his batting partner, removing the bails. Babylon XI's innings closed, 21 runs behind Blake's, when Lyta failed to read Vila's slow left-arm spin and was bowled. But it was pace that had dominated play: Soolin collected five wickets for 77 and Dayna another three. Jenna was determined to build on her side's advantage, and had already raced to 52 when Tarrant was bowled swiping at Lyta for only 29. Zen was trapped by his first ball, from Ivanova, in fading light, and play halted for the evening with Blake's XI on 95 for two - already 116 ahead. When they resumed in the morning, the men of the middle order again fell cheaply. But Jenna continued her high-flying form, reaching a dazzling hundred with her sixth six. She shared a spirited eighth-wicket partnership of 66 with Dayna, and looked as if she might carry her bat through to the end of the innings until she was finally caught on the boundary by Marcus, a well-earned wicket for Lennier, who also dismissed fellow leg-spinner Cally after her entertaining final stand with Vila. Again, Vila was the sole survivor. Ivanova had bowled unchanged for five wickets, though they came at a cost of 159. Babylon XI needed 308 to win, which would have been much the biggest total of the match. They made a bad start when Mollari was given out at the end of the first over - Servalan having referred a stumping appeal from Orac to the third umpire, Sandman. At the same score, 17, G'Kar fell for Dayna a second time and Sheridan could not recapture his earlier form. Sinclair, however, played a captain's innings at his second attempt, smashing Dayna for 24 runs in five balls - only for her sixth, an in-swinger, to trap him lbw. After that, Soolin, aided by Blake's brilliant field placings, swept through the rest. She bowled even better from the Purple End than she had from the Green the previous day, and garnered six wickets. Only Garibaldi, lashing out for a couple of sixes, managed to carry the Babylonians into three figures, and his luck ran out at 111. Blake's XI had won by a massive 196 runs. The Eighth Doctor, called to name the Player of the Match, had a hard task choosing between Jenna and Soolin, who had both set up Blake's XI with first-innings fifties, followed by a century from Jenna and 11 wickets in the match from Soolin. The Doctor eventually settled for Jenna, who had been on the field for most of the game and whose feisty batting had done so much to destroy the opposition's morale. Woman of the Match: Jenna (adjudicated by the Eighth Doctor). Blake's XI Tarrant c M. Cole b S. Ivanova 8 - b L. Alexander 29 Jenna lbw b L. Alexander 52 - c M. Cole b Lennier 119 Zen b L. Alexander 21 - lbw b S. Ivanova 0 *Blake st Kosh b S. Ivanova 23 - b L. Alexander 5 Gan st Kosh b L. Alexander 11 - st Kosh b L. Alexander 10 Avon lbw b L. Alexander 4 - st Kosh b S. Ivanova 10 +Orac lbw b M. Garibaldi 11 - lbw b S. Ivanova 20 Soolin lbw b M. Garibaldi 55 - st Kosh b S. Ivanova 4 Dayna st Kosh b M. Cole 32 - lbw b S. Ivanova 39 Cally lbw b M. Garibaldi 12 - b Lennier 34 Vila not out 1 - not out 15 N-b 1 1 N-b 1 1 __ __ 1/19 2/44 3/67 231 1/81 2/82 3/97 286 4/92 5/96 6/127 4/107 5/125 6/151 7/144 8/177 9/230 7/155 8/221 9/251 Bowling: First Innings-L. Alexander 4-0-64-4; S. Ivanova 3-0-63-2; M. Cole 3-0-56-1; M. Garibaldi 2.5-0-48-3. Second Innings-S. Ivanova 8-0-159-5; L. Alexander 5-0-81-3; Lennier 3-0-46-2. Babylon XI L. Mollari b Dayna 41 - (2) st Orac b Soolin 11 G'Kar c Zen b Dayna 6 - (1) b Dayna 6 J. Sheridan b Soolin 55 - lbw b Dayna 3 Delenn c Jenna b Soolin 1 - st Orac b Soolin 11 *J. Sinclair lbw b Soolin 0 - lbw b Dayna 33 M. Cole c Tarrant b Soolin 7 - c Tarrant b Soolin 4 S. Ivanova lbw b Dayna 18 - st Orac b Soolin 8 +Kosh Naranek not out 28 - c Vila b Soolin 9 M. Garibaldi lbw b Soolin 8 - lbw b Dayna 20 Lennier st Orac b Avon 39 - b Soolin 2 L. Alexander b Vila 6 - not out 0 N-b 1 1 N-b 4 4 __ __ 1/36 2/78 3/83 210 1/17 2/17 3/29 111 4/83 5/101 6/114 4/42 5/70 6/70 7/134 8/143 9/199 7/82 8/103 9/105 Bowling: First Innings-Soolin 5-0-77-5; Dayna 4-0-75-3; Vila 2.2-0-33-1; Avon 2-0-25-1. Second Innings-Soolin 4-0-60-6; Dayna 3.2-0-51-4. Umpires: Cartagia and Servalan. Third Umpire: Sandman. Referee: The Man in the Shack. Scorer: Marisu. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 07:46:30 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: space-city@world.std.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: SC: Redemption Cricket Report Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Since the vorlons turned out to be really sore losers, the scorer of > the cricket match between the Blake's XI and the Babylon XI has had to > go into hiding in the frozen north. Never one to be frightened by > overwhelming force, though, she has arranged for this report to be > smuggled out from her hidingplace: Who would have thought that Cricket scoring was such a hazardous occupation. :) Thanks to the intrepid scorer and Calle for getting this to us. > The rebels were quickly in trouble when Susan Ivanova > removed Tarrant with her first delivery, courtesy of a spectacular catch > in the deep by Marcus Cole. :( Though he did seem to manage better than his fellow male team members, that isn't saying much. > Jenna watched helplessly as Blake and Gan > were stumped by Kosh - a feat all the more remarkable as the ambassador > wicket-keeper often seemed to have been at the opposite end only > seconds before. > Blake's XI were all out for a hasty 231, Lyta picking up four wickets for > 64. Not a shabby score, especially if one factors in the unpromising beginning. Jenna was impressively staunch, standing in there while partner after partner fell in succession. > Replying for Babylon XI, Mollari made a dashing start. He saw off two > confident appeals from Soolin, both rejected by Servalan, with whom he > was noticed exchanging pleasantries - evidently leading to the > surprise announcement of their marriage the following evening. My goodness. I wish I knew this Mollari fellow (my B5 knowledge is very limited). Did he sweep her off her feet? > When they resumed in the morning, the men of the middle order > again fell cheaply. I just love cricket terminology: falling "cheaply" and standing in for a "forthright 55." The "Cricket version" of the massacre from THE WAY BACK would read: The rebels fell cheaply, mowed down without resistance by a squad of forthright Federation troopers. > Again, Vila was the sole survivor. This is soooo Vila. I can see him in the clubhouse/locker room (what do you Brits call that place?), volunteering for the spot that best guaranteed his survival: Let me operate the tele--...er...bat last. > Sinclair, however, played a captain's > innings at his second attempt, smashing Dayna for 24 runs in five > balls - Yowser... I'm wondering how cricket fans held up during that explosion. They aren't used to such a torrid pace. > The Eighth Doctor, called > to name the Player of the Match, had a hard task choosing between > Jenna and Soolin, who had both set up Blake's XI with first-innings > fifties, followed by a century from Jenna and 11 wickets in the match > from Soolin. Three cheers for all the women. If I'm figuring this correctly, they were the four top scorers. Plus their bowling accounted for all but two of the opposition's outs. Don't you love it? The women did the work, while the men... Well, I hope the males at least served to provide pretty scenery during the match. ;-) Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 08:48:14 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: << Probably impractical, but it would be interesting to compare list members T/F scores with their perceptions of manipulation re Avon-Blake. >> Now, this is intriguing. My I/E ratio is 6 to 4. My T/F ratio is 2 to 8. But is still see Blake as more manipulative than Avon. Somehow, I don't mind someone using logic to persuade me to do something, because they are trying to show how things are. But I highly object to someone messing around with my feelings just to get me to do something. And I've read all of the arguments that Blake is not, at least consciously, trying to manipulate Avon and the others, and yet my "feelings" just don't believe it. Hmmmm, maybe I should retake the test. Gail -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #108 **************************************