From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #231 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/231 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 231 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #229 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? [B7L] UFDA Certified Grade A: Alpha ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 20:43:20 +0100 From: "O'Malley Price Corps" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #229 Message-ID: <379CBA58.DFE104EA@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit unsubscribe blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se wrote: > Subject: > > blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 229 > > Today's Topics: > Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Re: [B7L] Good news! > Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Re: [B7L] Good news! > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > [B7L] Blake the manipulator > Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > [B7L] Re: Greedy is as greedy does? > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part One > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 01:03:22 EDT > From: AdamWho@aol.com > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > I forgot to put the webpage where the essay is located: > > http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Essays/Pella.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Good news! > Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 10:31:16 -0600 > From: "Ellynne G." > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 14:08:53 -0500 Lisa Williams writes: > >David A McIntee forwarded: > > > >>The old favourites will replace American classics such as Ironside > >and UFO > >>at off-peak periods in the afternoons and at weekends. > > > >Since when did UFO become an *American* classic? > > > As soon as someone in advertising thought it would sell better as one. > > Ellynne > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:18:13 -0600 > From: "Ellynne G." > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > On Fri, 23 Jul 1999 23:07:02 +1000 Kathryn Andersen > writes: > >On Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 11:21:50PM -0700, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > >> > >> As to her name, Sue Lynn is also common in the US, > >> and isn't AFAIK particular to any ethnic group. > > > >That would be fine except for the fact that it's spelt "Soolin". > > > Thanks, Kathryn. I guess I expressed myself poorly (what else is new?). > The name sounded like a friend's (although not quite the same) and I > always made that link till another friend pointed out Sue Lynn was a > stereotypical farm girl name. > > But Soolin means pale jade, and I understand pale is more negative in > Chinese than in English, implying death. It seems much more fitting. It > also seems more like a name someone other than family would have given > her. > > Ellynne > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:02:58 -0600 > From: "Ellynne G." > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 02:39:36 PDT "Sally Manton" > writes: > > >Followed by Gail's: > > > . Blake > >*likes* Avon (he is exasperated and infuriated on a regular basis, > >yes, but they do like each other. Sally's First Rule.) So why on earth > >must his liking and his respect for the other man's opinion be > >twisted into 'emotional blackmail'? > > > >***Blake is not to blame for the fact that Avon cares about him.*** > > Trying to be fair (i.e. wishy washy) to both sides here, I think Avon > sometimes _does_ blame Blake for the fact that he cares about him. > Avon's problem is he _didn't_ decide to like Blake, he just likes him. > For most people, not a problem, but it is for him. Being emotionally > attached to Avon is something he perceives as threatening. Worse, Blake > is aware of Avon's liking him and, at times, appeals to Avon's loyalty > and decency, traits Avon doesn't like to admit exists. > > For the average person, this wouldn't be either threatening or blackmail, > and I don't think Blake usually sees it as such (he's far too people > sensitive not to know Avon sometimes feels threatened by it). At other > times, I think he feels he is pushing Avon on things he needs to be > pushed on--but he knows when to back off. In Countdown, he doesn't let > Avon's reaction over Del Grant go till he knows what's going on, > realizing he needs to know what kind of trouble he can expect between > them and then trying to curtail that trouble till the planet's saved. > OTOH, although he tries to talk to Avon about Anna and believes Avon > would be better off talking about it, he lets it go. > > Ellynne > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 12:02:27 -0600 > From: "Ellynne G." > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > On Sat, 24 Jul 1999 23:11:01 EDT AdamWho@aol.com writes: > >After watching Power for the first time (a very strong contender for > >worst B7 > >episode), I read Harriet's essay on Pella, and the pathetic turn taken > >with > >the character in her final minutes. It is a wonderful essay, and I > >completely > >agree. > > > >Only the misogny of Ben Steed could produce an episode where every > >female is > >killed, except the real "woman", Nina, who tolerated her husband's > >abuse and > >treatment of her as a servant. > > After seeing this episode, I had to find some excuse for what happened or > lose all sympathy for Avon and start rooting for Servalan to beat him. > The simplest answer, that Avon was obviously still recovering from > Dorian's attempt to dump all of his personality problems on the crew and > that Avon's misogyny was really _Dorian's_ misogyny, didn't occur to me > till later. THis is all a little twisted, and anyone who feels Power is > inexcuseable may skip the following excuse. > > 1) Start with Gunn-sar's abuse. Suppose the stupid, abusive barbarian > thing is an act? The Hommiks have just captured a man who may very > likely be an associate of Dorian. Nina is the person with the most > experience with Dorian and possibly other off-worlders. She pulls the > slave act so she will be ignored while making her observations. Gunn-sar > acts rude and loud to further draw attention away from her and towards > himself. Nina's actions are actually signals telling Gunn-sar what > questions to ask and what conclusions she draws. Finally, she (wrongly) > decides Avon is an enemy and gives Gunn-sar a signal to lure Avon into a > duel. > > How does Gunn-sar do this? _By threatening NIna._ He assumed--out of his > own cultural prejudices--that any man would automatically stop another > man from striking a woman, even if the woman was an extremely low status > slave and the man he would have to fight had immediate power over his > life and death. This implies a culture in which woman had considerable > status and in which abuse was not normally tolerated. > > 2) So what about Nina's line about being a woman? Our first impression > of that is a relatively late 20th century context with implications about > Nina's sexuality. What if, in her language (I assume those translators > mentioned in season 1 are still online somewhere and that not all aliens > speak English--and, even if they did, dialect changes) the phrase "I'm a > woman" meant "I'm a woman"? What if these people seperated human females > into two groups, women and Seska? > > 3) And what do we know about the Seska? It makes much more sense for > them to have been the ruling cast in this society before being overthrown > in a popular revolt, rather than a seperate tribe. They may have limited > implanting to girls or young women they considered "worthy." Then an > interesting turn of phrase Pella used caught my attention. She spoke of > the captured Seska as "us" and "Seska" until she spoke of them having > children. Then they were "them." Whether she was lying or telling Vila > the truth, she didn't consider women who had children as her kind. > > What if the Seska used lower status women as surrogate mothers? What if > they didn't stop there? Cato was an educated male who was not part of > the overall warrior culture. What if the only males ruling Seska allowed > to be educated were surgically or otherwise adjusted to limit their > ability to father children? Or to father them without artificial aid? > Kind of makes you see why all nonSeska might see the gene bank or > whatever it was called as a symbol of Seska control and want to bomb it. > > 3) Pella lied to Villa. > > There is just no way her version of Hommik child abandonment works. > Infanticide of _all_ female children is a great way to become extinct. > Hoping someone who admits they don't usually find the children in time > will come along, raise the survivors, arm them with a deadly weapon you > can't use, train them to use it, and give them every reason to hate you > and believing that this will be an easier way to ensure the next > generation is born than raising them yourselves. . . . someone with the > IQ of lettuce could come up with a better idea. > > What is important is that, when meeting a _man_, Pella believed she could > gain sympathy and support with her story of _abused women_. Although the > only men she would have known (besides Dorian), like Gunn-sar when he > tried to provoke Avon, she assumed _abuse_ would turn him against the > Hommiks. > > 4) What other reasons might the Hommiks have for revolting against the > Seska? We already have Seska exploitation of nonimplanted women and a > possible program of ruthless eugenics. What about Dorian? He admits to > being a total sicko who will do anything, no matter how revoltingly > depraved, for entertainment. Soolin hadn't been overly abused by him and > didn't realize what a sick puppy he was (not that she may not have > realized he was sick). So, who was he mistreating? > > Another important question: have the Seska ever taken live, Hommik > prisoners? > > Soolin might have searched a few "off-limits" areas after Dorian's death, > found some Hommiks and released them. If Nina knew any of them or if she > had ever had a son captured by the Seska, she might have been more than > ready to assume the worst about Avon. > > 5) Oh, yes, Nina's part in all this. Assume Nina, Gunn-sar, and Cato > represented three of the four adult types in Seska/Hommik society, an > umimplanted woman, a normal man, and a possibly surigically tampered > with, educated man. > > Nina may have bought the Seska party line until she reached a point where > she had to interact with Dorian. He sickened her. Eventually, she began > to question all Seska society and began working with forces wanting to > overthrow them. She kept up the pretense right until the end in her > record keeping (possibly throwing in lines meant to demoralize her side). > Her line about "mere women" obviously didn't reflect the Seska view of > themselves. She was either referring to the Seska's future without their > implants (demoralizing speech) or was making a reference to nonSeska > which remained unclear because she was cut off. > > 6) The Hommik initially in charge may have been an extremist (see French > Revolution: Reign of Terror for information on the type) whose dislike of > Seska may have spilled over into other excesses. Mistreatment of Seska > prisoners, especially once their implants were removed, could have > triggered a backlash. Gunn-sar's removal of him in combat may have been a > much saner act than he makes it sound when he is trying to play stupid > barbarian. His other fights may also have been saner. > > 7) What Cato told Avon: mostly the truth except for how he tries to keep > Gunn-sar and Nina out of it. Gunn-sar would have known whether the young > men were being trained as lookouts or not. If nothing else, it would > only need one person asking "Hey, how's the lookout job?" and them > replying "Huh?" for the deception to be made known. The Seska seem to > have controlled technology to maintain their power. For a previous > servant to use it is bad enough--Pella killed him instantly even though > it alienated her one ally in enemy territory--but for a male who wasn't > even part of the educated caste was intolerable. Pella obviously didn't > buy Cato's story. She concentrated her efforts on killing Gunn-sar after > this (proving Gunn-sar's stupid act may have been based on rational fears > of what the Seska would do if they learned there was more to him than > bluster and physical force (something they didn't respect). > > 8) Avon's kissing Pella. Avon's sympathy and trust in Pella had been > rapidly diminishing. He began to realize she saw all nonSeska as > subhuman and might easily decide to kill him or throw him to the wolves > if it improved her chances or if she simply decided he was a problem > (uppity male comes to mind). He deliberately triggered a confrontation > in circumstances he thought he could survive, playing on Pella's > prejudices against his gender. > > In other words, he gambled she would use energy (hopefully already > diminished with everything going on) to 'teach him a lesson' for > overstepping his bounds, something he could survive, and that would > hopefully leave her too weak for a more lethal attack. He was > deliberately going for her contempt. > > 9) With Cato's death, Nina realizes she had been wrong about Avon--and > that this error has led to the deaths of her friend and her husband. She > allows him to escape. She also concedes this territory. The war is > over. > > 10) Side issue: Kate. I like the argument that Kate may have been Nina's > daughter, even if by a surragate mother. If so, who was this little test > tube baby's father? Kate, Cato. Hmm. > > If Nina had lost children in the war and had learned how a son had been > tortured by Dorian just that morning, she may have wanted Kate's survival > very badly at this point and let her go. Tragically ironic how that > worked out. > > Whew. Ok, I admit the textual basis for the above is a tad weak, but > consider the alternative: taking Power at face value. > > Ellynne > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 03:37:38 EDT > From: AdamWho@aol.com > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > In a message dated 99-07-25 01:54:17 EDT, rilliara@juno.com writes: > > << After seeing this episode, I had to find some excuse for what happened or > lose all sympathy for Avon and start rooting for Servalan to beat him. > The simplest answer, that Avon was obviously still recovering from > Dorian's attempt to dump all of his personality problems on the crew and > that Avon's misogyny was really _Dorian's_ misogyny, didn't occur to me > till later. THis is all a little twisted, and anyone who feels Power is > inexcuseable may skip the following excuse. >> > > Other than the moment when he tells Pella women will always be inferior to > men (which can be easily attributed to emotions running high, she did just > inflict pain on him several times, he wanted to say what would annoy her > most), Avon's behavior in this episode didn't bother me. He's certainly been > cold and ruthless in many other episodes. What *did* bother me is Avon not > noticing the Homite sneaking up behind him after he defeated Cato. It doesn't > seem in character for Avon. > > > > I have no complaints with your arguments, they make sense. But you could say > Nina is really Travis after a sex-change operation, and I still wouldn't have > any interest in ever watching "Power" again. It's awful, with bad dialogue, > an uninteresting story, and full of the cliches Ben Steed dragged across > Kairos and Moloch. > > The only bright spots are a few of the Vila scenes, and the writing for Dayna > is pretty good. That's the one kind thing I can say about Steed's writing, in > Kairos and Power Dayna is very tough and strong, usually standing up to the > cliched "he-man" characters at just the right moment. And she has some great > scenes in Moloch. Ben Steed must have had a special fondness for Dayna, she > is the only female he didn't ignore, grind into submission, or kill. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? (was Re: Avon & Vila) > Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:11:07 -0700 > From: mistral@ptinet.net > To: B7 List > > Re Blake and control: > > Mistral: > > > > what I meant is, Blake gave Avon some input, at least, > > whereas in Federation, Avon would have felt a cipher. > > *Some* control is better than *no* control; > > > > Gail: > > > Well, yes, Blake did allow Avon some input (although Blake usually seemed to > > do what he wanted regardless of the input). But even so, I think that Avon > > would have found Blake's control much more alarming than the Federation's > > because it was up close and personal. > > Perhaps we could agree that they were both disturbing, > albeit in different ways, without trying to weigh the > relative degree at the moment? No sense arguing just > to argue, and I'd like to think about it a bit more. > > > I always felt that Blake was using emotional blackmail with Avon, but don't > > ask me to come up with examples. It would require actually watching some B7! > > > to do so!!!> That is certainly an emotional approach. Does anyone else out > > there think so, too? > > I always associate emotional blackmail with things like > 'If you cared about me, you would...' I don't think that > everything that appeals to the heart is blackmail, so I > guess we'd have to have specifics to discuss it; because > I don't remember anything I think is that extreme. Er... > sometimes Blake rather throws down the gauntlet, though. > Expresses disbelief at one of Avon's positions that seems > cold to Blake. > > I wonder... in Horizon, does anyone think Blake knew that > Avon was overhearing his conversation with Jenna in the > teleport? > > ????? > Mistral > -- > "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." > --the third Doctor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 00:29:16 -0700 > From: mistral@ptinet.net > To: B7 List > > Sally Manton wrote (with some snipping for brevity): > > (re Blake possibly controlling Avon) > > > By whose (albeit unwilling) choice, may I ask? Blake never > > demanded a personal, emotional commitment. He had it - oh, yes, > > he knew he had it, and he used it when he needed to (forcing his > > trust on Avon as early as Time Squad). But he never *manipulated* > > Avon into caring about him personally. > > Er, shooting yourself in the foot here, aren't you Sally? For the > most part I agree with everything you said, but, if the choice > was unwilling, then Blake was exerting some control. And if > Blake used Avon's attachment, as you say, that is by definition > emotional manipulation. > > > Followed by Gail's: > > > but don't ask me to come up with examples. It would require > > actually watching some B7! > in frustration for not finding time to do so!!!> That is certainly an > > emotional approach. Does anyone else out there think so, too?> > > > > No way. Noooooo way. Too right I'm going to ask you to come up > > with examples, if you're going in for Blake-bashing like this. > > Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and control > issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing. > I am in two minds about the manipulation issue, but it's possible to > see and mention one flaw in a person without that being bashing them, > surely? Real people, and therefore well-crafted characters, have both > good and bad characteristics. And people will disagree which are which. > > > In Breakdown, he's willing to let Avon go, without trying in the > > slightest to stop him by either physical means or emotional ties (in > > fact, he's extremely short with Avon, almost pushing him away, > > *until* it's clear that Avon had made his decision). > > Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling. > > > Blake does not 'manipulate' anyone lightly. He has a gift for it - it's > > part of what he is, along with the generosity of spirit, the > > ruthlessness, the warmth, the calculation...the everything. But he > > uses it sparingly IMO, and not on Avon. He's got far too much > > respect for Avon's intelligence and acuity to try it, even if he was > > tempted, because he knows Avon wouldn't stand for it. > > Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon > calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then. > > > Avon *may* have felt something like emotional compulsion, > > but surely he's far too honest to try and blame Blake for what *his > > own* feelings are pushing him into. > > Absolutely true, IMHO. > > > > Mistral > -- > "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." > --the third Doctor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > Date: Sat, 24 Jul 1999 22:14:37 -0700 > From: mistral@ptinet.net > To: B7 List > > Rob Clother wrote: > > > Just to put my statement into a bit of context, my remark about Series 3 was > > based on my own initial reaction to Avon. He's a clever sod, who can come > > up with blistering lines. > > Thank you for the clarification ;-) > > > At first, I disliked Tarrant and excused Avon -- > > but a bit of conditioning c/o the TN opened my eyes to the fact that I was > > straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel. > > Oh, dear, and now you've swallowed the giraffe? > My sympathies ;-) > > Mistral > -- > "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." > --the third Doctor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 01:38:56 -0700 > From: mistral@ptinet.net > To: B7 List > > Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 22, 1999 at 11:21:50PM -0700, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > > > > > As to her name, Sue Lynn is also common in the US, > > > and isn't AFAIK particular to any ethnic group. > > > > That would be fine except for the fact that it's spelt "Soolin". > > Thanks, I'd have never figured that out ;-) My point was the > name could have come from anywhere (including the Chinese, > as Ellynne mentioned), since several names seem to have mutated > down the centuries to the time of the show. > > > As for Avon and Soolin getting together, I just don't see it at all. > > Whether or not one is applying the argument that they are alike and > > that like attracts like; that they understand each other and therefore > > would get on -- seems completely irrelevant to me. The thing is, > > there ain't no *spark*. I can see them working absolutely smoothly as > > collegues, and maybe even growing towards friendship, but falling in > > love? - not on your life! > > I suppose that I don't think there has to be any *spark* at > the point we're viewing them at. The spark is attraction; but > the pattern isn't always attraction>romance>love>commitment, > sometimes it's commitment/friendship>love>attraction>romance. > It's a rarer pattern, but occurs IRL. Love isn't always a roller- > coaster; sometimes its a comfy sweater. (Complete with > sequins and silver studs?) > > > Perhaps they are too alike. Because I think both of them have been > > hurt so much and are so closed and absolutely determined not to be > > vulnerable, that *neither* of them is going to be able to crack the > > armour of the other. Both of them need someone who is (a) supportive, > > (b) willing to be vulnerable *first* and (c) understanding and > > forgiving. > > We must have a very different read of Soolin; I think > her capable of all three (in order c-a-b); and while Avon > couldn't initiate them, he could reciprocate them once he > felt understood and supported. Were the latter not the case, > you certainly couldn't have A/anybody. > > Cheers, > Mistral > -- > "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." > --the third Doctor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Good news! > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 15:32:55 +0100 > From: "David A McIntee" > To: "Lisa Williams" , > > ---------- > > From: Lisa Williams > > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > > > >The old favourites will replace American classics such as Ironside and > UFO > > >at off-peak periods in the afternoons and at weekends. > > > > Since when did UFO become an *American* classic? > > I wondered that myself - I'm just quoting what the report said... > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 18:07:45 +0100 > From: "Jennifer Beavan" > To: "B7 List" > > Mistral wrote > > > Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and control > > issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing. > > Yes, but you've been discussing Avon using examples from canon. Saying a > character has a particulat trait, without being able to back this up with > evidence means that you can't take the statement seriously and therefore > can't argue for or against. > > > > In Breakdown, he's willing to let Avon go, without trying in the > > > slightest to stop him by either physical means or emotional ties (in > > > fact, he's extremely short with Avon, almost pushing him away, > > > *until* it's clear that Avon had made his decision). > > > Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling. > > Which means that you are defining anything Blake does as manipulation - > damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. > > > Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon > > calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then. > > That Avon perceived Blake's words/actions as manipulation doesn't mean they > were! Just that Avon didn't have the guts to face up to why he kept doing > what Blake wanted and needed to blame Blake for his own weakness! > > Jennifer > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: [B7L] Blake the manipulator > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 22:42:23 +0100 > From: S Riaz > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > How nice to see Blake defended against the charge of manipulation always > levelled against him. I have to agree that I fail to see how Blake > really manipulated Avon so mercilessly. And I have to agree that I > think they actually liked each other - that is, it was reciprocated. > Avon liked Blake too. > > If, as so many Blake bashers say, Avon really hated Blake and only > wanted the Liberator, etc. why did his behaviour always say > otherwise? Star One, Terminal, Gauda Prime, are all indications that > Avon was motivated by what Blake meant to him. How could Blake have > manipulated him into Terminal? Avon went to Terminal just to see > whether Blake was there - he wasn't really interested in any 'deal'. > One look at his face when Servalan said he was dead spoke volumes. If > she didn't know what his weakness was before, she knew it then - and so > did the rest of the crew. > > By the way, I have a question. Although I have watched B7 many, many, > many, many, many times (!), I have never really understood how the > Alpha, etc classifications was explained. I have always understood in > fan-fic that Vila was a Delta, Gan a Gamma and the other Earth members > Alpha. I seem to recall Vila being spoken of a Delta in one episode > and Blake being shown as an Alpha at his trial (as was Travis?). > However, why do we assume about the others? Am I missing something, or > was it just written in varying stories so much that we've all accepted > it as true? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 08:59:55 EST > From: "Joanne MacQueen" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > >From: Mac4781@aol.com > > She doesn't trust him any further than she can throw him. > > And, unless Rob thinks otherwise, I doubt that any member of the crew > (barring, perhaps, Tarrant) could lift Avon to try > > >At any rate, *I* don't want to have her babies, and I suspect >Joanne > >doesn't either, and we both agree with your view of little >chance for > >Soolin/Avon. :) > > Wrong gender to do the engendering, apart from any other considerations > (sexuality, temperament, etc, etc). If Rob wants Soolin for himself that > badly I'm more than prepared to let him! I just wonder who he'll have > to fight for the fair lady's hand. > > Regards > Joanne > (Here comes the rain again...) > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:03:33 EST > From: "Joanne MacQueen" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > >From: mistral@ptinet.net > >sometimes its a comfy sweater. (Complete with sequins and silver >studs?) > > It's Monday morning, and Mistral reminds me of some of the horrors that lurk > in the back of Avon's wardrobe (see Deathwatch in particular). Thank you > very much! > > Regards > Joanne > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:17:52 -0700 > From: mistral@ptinet.net > To: B7 List > > Jennifer Beavan wrote: > > > Mistral wrote > > > > > Now wait. Gail and I have been discussing Avon's greed and control > > > issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing. > > > > Yes, but you've been discussing Avon using examples from canon. Saying a > > character has a particulat trait, without being able to back this up with > > evidence means that you can't take the statement seriously and therefore > > can't argue for or against. > > Not entirely true. We've been discussing Avon to a certain extent > based on what we *perceive as his personality type*, and some > *extrapolation* about how he'd feel about some *assumptions* > we've made about Federation society. Every character discussion > on the lyst is full of such inferences, assumptions, and extrapolations. > Otherwise, there's nothing to discuss. > > As was pointed out last week, you can build an impression of > a character by getting an overall sense from watching the eps, > as well as piecing it together from specifics. I agree, that's pretty > much impossible to debate, and I think it's completely legitimate > to ask for specific examples. But when Gail says 'I felt...does > anyone agree?', the appropriate answer seems to me to be > 'yes' or 'no' or 'give examples', not 'you Blake-basher, you'. > > > > Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling. > > > > Which means that you are defining anything Blake does as manipulation - > > damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. > > *I'm* not defining anything at all. I haven't said that I find > Blake manipulative; I've quite clearly said I'm in two minds > about it. But throwing a switch 'on' or 'off' is still throwing > a switch--manipulating it. The alternative is to leave it alone. > Quite apart from that, even if I consider a specific incident > manipulation, that wouldn't make the person manipulative; > I'd need to see a pattern. > > > > Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon > > > calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then. > > > > That Avon perceived Blake's words/actions as manipulation doesn't mean they > > were! Just that Avon didn't have the guts to face up to why he kept doing > > what Blake wanted and needed to blame Blake for his own weakness! > > Since Spacefall is the *first* possible example we see of it, there's > no indication that at this point Avon *kept* doing what Blake wanted; > and you've taken my remark out of context, as I was responding to > Sally's assertion Blake wouldn't try it because Avon wouldn't put up > with it. > > I've no interest at all in discussing whether Blake was manipulative > or not; that seems to me to depend on your definition of manipulation, > about which it's unlikely to reach consensus; however, saying you > perceive a character to have a certain flaw does not IMHO constitute > bashing. In my book it's far preferable to disagree with someone's > opinions than it is to resort to name-calling and personal attacks. > > Just IMHO, > Mistral > -- > "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." > --the third Doctor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1999 16:22:57 -0700 > From: mistral@ptinet.net > To: B7 List > > Joanne MacQueen wrote: > > > >From: mistral@ptinet.net > > >sometimes its a comfy sweater. (Complete with sequins and silver >studs?) > > > > It's Monday morning, and Mistral reminds me of some of the horrors that lurk > > in the back of Avon's wardrobe (see Deathwatch in particular). Thank you > > very much! > > What? You don't like the Deathwatch jacket? Oooooh, but > it's the best one!!! So very Avon. So expressive of his personality. > So pompous, yet so ridiculous. The worst thing about losing the > Liberator was that jacket going with it!!! > > > > ??????? > -- > "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." > --the third Doctor > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L]Avon and Soolin > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 09:41:07 EST > From: "Joanne MacQueen" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > >From: the Galactic Yo-yo (aka Mistral) > > > > > > another day> > > Regards > Joanne > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: [B7L] Re: Greedy is as greedy does? > Date: Wed, 19 May 1999 04:54:56 -0600 > From: "Ellynne G." > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > On Sun, 25 Jul 1999 13:22:42 EDT SugarHIB7@aol.com writes: > >In a message dated 7/24/99 10:54:07 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > >rilliara@juno.com writes: > > > ><< Avon's problem is he _didn't_ decide to like Blake, he just likes > >him. > > > >Nice distinction. > > > > > > < >emotionally > > attached to Avon is something he perceives as threatening. >> > > > >Hi ! > > > >I really enjoyed this carefully thought out post, but I was wondering > >if the > >name above shouldn't have been Blake (instead of Avon). If you truly > >do see > >Blake feeling threatened in this way, I'd be fascinated to hear more. > > What I meant was "To Avon, being attached is something he perceives as > threatening." Sorry. > > Ellynne > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. > Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! > Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part One > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:33:11 PDT > From: "Sally Manton" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > Mistral wrote: > > Er, shooting yourself in the foot here, aren't you Sally? > > Does sound like it, but nup (I admitted I was wrong in a post two > months ago. You don't get two admissions within the same decade > ). For two reasons: > > As I said, Blake never asked for, not did anything deliberately, to > get Avon's emotional commitment. He asked for practical help, the > use of Avon’s skills and strengths in his cause, and possibly enough > trust to feel he wouldn’t get stabbed in the back for no good reason. > The depth of the commitment he got was a unexpected and veeerrry > reluctantly-given gift. What was he supposed to do, throw it back in Avon's > face? > > Yes, he used Avon's loyalty when he had to, but not to push > caring or emotion on Avon (he ain't that dumb). In Time Squad, > he pushed his own trust (which is different from forcing Avon to > trust him BTW) on Avon to prove - to Avon and the others - that > Avon could be trusted with their lives (albeit at this early stage only if > Avon wasn't endangered himself.) Given what had happened > in Cygnus Alpha, it was something Jenna at least needed to see. > > control issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing.> > > True, and if Gail hadn't *said* she had no proof , I'd have > left the word out (would still probably have argued the point though). > Maybe I came across a bit tetchy (if so, Gail, I apologise) but > for me, it's bashing where blanket statements are made where > there's no proof in the series. As Jennifer said, simply saying > 'he’s an emotional blackmailer even if there's no evidence of > it' is doesn't leave a lot of room for discussion. If someone wants to give > me *reasons* why it's emotional blackmail to show respect for Avon's mind > and ideas, even if there's no examples, > again, it's not bashing (I'll then argue it's *wrong* however ) > > see and mention one flaw in a person without that being bashing them, > surely? Real people, and therefore well-crafted characters, have both > good and bad characteristics. And people will disagree which are which.> > > I see plenty of flaws in both of them (part of the reason I love them - > I don't care for 'nice' characters much, and *no one* could call > My Heroes nice) but not this. But how can we discuss it if it's > just to be laid down as 'well it's there, even though there's > not a skerrik of proof?' > > > > But in that case, *every move* Blake makes is damned as > manipulative. What's the poor man to do? Stop breathing? Errr... > no, dying on Avon would probably count as well. (Now this is > discussion, not bashing...you took my example and gave your own > view.) > > him on it. They'd known each other several months then.> > > No, we know Avon called it manipulation...given that the verbal > games and sparring started two minutes after *meeting* each other, > and has probably been going on for the several months (and we > missed it all (sob) where’s Avon-cam when I want it) I'm not sure > even *Avon* believed this one, but it's just what he'd say. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 21:37:07 +0100 From: "Jennifer Beavan" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Message-ID: <005a01bed7a6$cae1ef20$68feabc3@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral said > As was pointed out last week, you can build an impression of > a character by getting an overall sense from watching the eps, > as well as piecing it together from specifics. I agree, that's pretty > much impossible to debate, and I think it's completely legitimate > to ask for specific examples. But when Gail says 'I felt...does > anyone agree?', the appropriate answer seems to me to be > 'yes' or 'no' or 'give examples', not 'you Blake-basher, you'. Not that I said anything of the kind! I do think that your discussion of Avon was different in kind, in that you were taking from canon Avon's statements regarding his desire for wealth and safety and extrapolating an interesting discussion on personality types. I'm happy to accept that Gail has an impression of Blake as an emotional manipulator - I'd just like to argue that she's wrong! I'd also be interested to know, Gail, if your impression could be reinforced by fanfic you've read, say - Judith Seaman anyone? > > > Pushing could be construed equally manipulative to pulling. > > > > Which means that you are defining anything Blake does as manipulation - > > damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. > > *I'm* not defining anything at all. I haven't said that I find > Blake manipulative; I've quite clearly said I'm in two minds > about it. But throwing a switch 'on' or 'off' is still throwing > a switch--manipulating it. The alternative is to leave it alone. A choice which is in itself an action > Quite apart from that, even if I consider a specific incident > manipulation, that wouldn't make the person manipulative; > I'd need to see a pattern. Absolutely agree. > > > Well, we know he tried it on in Spacefall, because Avon > > > calls him on it. They'd known each other several months then. > > > > That Avon perceived Blake's words/actions as manipulation doesn't mean they > > were! Just that Avon didn't have the guts to face up to why he kept doing > > what Blake wanted and needed to blame Blake for his own weakness! > > Since Spacefall is the *first* possible example we see of it, there's > no indication that at this point Avon *kept* doing what Blake wanted; I thought Spacefall established the pattern very clearly - Avon argues and does what Blake wants! Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:29:02 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] UFDA Certified Grade A: Alpha Message-ID: <379CE12E.7817A22F@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S Riaz wrote: > By the way, I have a question. Although I have watched B7 many, many, > many, many, many times (!), I have never really understood how the > Alpha, etc classifications was explained. That's because it wasn't explained. In canon we only have: Shadow - Vila says Blake was a pampered Alpha grade, who wouldn't last 10 minutes in his own world, among the tough Delta grades. Vila once talks about having bought his low grade classification. (so: would you buy a used spaceship from this man?) Weapon - Servalan says technician Coser is a Beta grade. Keeper - Servalan says Jenna is a high grade intelligent Federation citizen. (would you buy a used spaceship from this woman?) And that's about it! > I have always understood in fan-fic ... Yes, a lot of "canon" is created in fanfic. > Am I missing something, or > was it just written in varying stories so much that we've all accepted > it as true? Yes! Pat ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? 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