From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #254 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/254 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 254 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Re: [B7L] RB, call home... [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity" Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity" Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity" Re: [B7L] RB, call home... [B7L] Bernard Archard Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Re: [B7L] RB, call home... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:18 -0700 From: Catharine Roussel To: Lysator B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: <37C2DC84.114C@telusplanet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hellen Paskaleva wrote: > > But, finally, he *did not* destroyed the Star One. Even more – he ordered to > the crew to discharge the bombs. He *do* realized that humanity needs that > command centre. Therefore - it would be a pure mindlessness for Blake to > blame himself for disaster, which he had been *against*. This is on the one > hand. > And on the other – let’s imagine that driving your car carelessly, you had > been just about to kill … a kid, for example, in the road accident. Or even > a whole class, both with the teacher. But you didn’t. You had turned the > wheel in the last second and the kids survived (to be killed next by a > truck, but this is another story…). This is where our opinions differ. Blake was not against the disaster.He spent the better part of at least a year planning for the destruction of Star One, even knowing the consequences of his actions. He intended to gamble that in destroying the lives of thousands, the lives of millions would be made better. He was not just being careless, as your driving analogy suggests. Instead, to take your analogy to the ridiculous extreme, Blake is like the ambulance driver that runs full speed through school crossings, knowing that some children might die, but believing that the death of those children is somehow not as important as the hypothetical life he will save at the other end. It was a very deliberate descision. CALLY: Are we fanatics? BLAKE: Does it matter? CALLY: Many, many people will die without Star One. BLAKE: I know. CALLY: Are you sure that what we're going to do is justified? BLAKE: It has to be. Don't you see, Cally? If we stop now then all we have done is senseless killing and destruction. Without purpose, without reason. We have to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was right. He did decided that with the Andromedan fleet knocking at the door, Star One should remain functional but if the Andromedans had not shown up, he would have destroyed the station himself. He knows this and I credit Roj Blake with far more moral conscience than to allow himself to solely blame the Andromedans for the aftermath of Star One's destruction simply because they were the ones to pull the trigger. That would be far too easy, especially after having taken the decision to do the exact same thing, and presumably the responsibility to live with the consequences of that decision. At the very least it would cause him to question his ability to lead the rebellion. Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without Star One. The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and the Federation continued. The masses did not rise up and seize control in the confusion as he must have expected. The result was simply more "senseless killing and destruction". > All I want to say is that Blake is not a kind of > person, who would blame himself superfluously at the face of the common > threat. In Blake's mind, I don't believe that he would have considered blame to be superfluous. Once he had accepted the responsibility of the aftermath of Star One's planned destruction it would be very difficult for him to shed that responsibility. I do believe that Avon would have been able to rationalize their actions at Star One in much the way that you have described. He might have even been able to help Blake get over it faster had their paths crossed earlier. For Blake however, too much of his own ego was invested in this decision for him to brush it away very easily once he realized how badly he had underestimated the problem and oversimplified the solution. Catharine -- Catharine Roussel croussel@telusplanet.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:30:56 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: <34be8fc1.24f43ee0@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Catharine wrote: An excellent post defining Blake's role in Star One. I won't repeat it all here, but I agree with it in its entirety. > In Blake's mind, I don't believe that he would have considered blame to > be superfluous. Once he had accepted the responsibility of the aftermath > of Star One's planned destruction it would be very difficult for him to > shed that responsibility. > For Blake however, too much of his own ego was invested in this > decision for him to brush it away very easily once he realized how badly > he had underestimated the problem and oversimplified the solution. I agree. I think Blake was an intelligent man and a man of conscience. He would have realized that his Star One plan was ill conceived. He would have realized that he would have wrought all that destruction for nothing. I really like your theory, Catharine, suggesting that Blake's guilt might have prevented him from contacting Liberator. I can also believe he wanted to keep his part of the bargain in regard to turning the ship over to Avon. I also agree with Harriet's: > I can. Avon's freedom speech is such an emotional gob-smacker, and Blake's > reply - "I never realised. You really do hate me, don't you?" - packs > almost as much punch in its quiet matter-of-factness. I never had the least doubt that both men were quite sincere during that exchange. I also liked Harriet's theory that Blake might have reconsidered his response in weeks to come. Blake's reaction was emotional; he was stabbing back because he was hurt. But that wouldn't have been enough reason for him to contact Liberator. Even if Avon didn't hate him, it was pretty clear that Avon didn't want to be on the same ship as him. You can care about someone and not be able to live with him/her. That's the point Avon had reached by Star One. I've no doubt he cared deeply for Blake, but I've also no doubt that he needed to be free of him. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:41:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Sondra Sweigman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII At one point it was possible to find J.Kel's B7 serial "The Pattern of Infinity" at the Blake's 7 Story Archive: http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/4667/archive.html But I tried to go there recently (several times), and the page is no longer there. Does anyone know of any other place on the Web where this story can be found? Alternatively, can anyone give me J.Kel's e-mail address? Thanks. Sondra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:23:06 PDT From: "Hellen Paskaleva" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: <19990824202310.91194.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Catharine Roussel wrote: One possibility is, that he did realized the probable consequences clearly just at the very end – he changed his decision/mind instants before the Andromedian’s fleet arrival. But he *did* changed it (I wouldn’t, most probably, if I was him). The other version is based on my own experience. It is usual for those, who sit in power in totalitarian societies, to provide only one source for supplying citizens with whatever they would need, I mean, one heating plant for the whole community, one energy source, even one water reservoir. This is done, because it is easier to control the people, when you are able in every moment to cease feeding with, for sample, electrical power. So did the Federation, using the Star One for all it’s needs – from archives’ storage to weather control centre. This is excellent decision, when one wants to keep people under control (it was common way of action only several years ago here, in *my* posttotalitarian country) – when the “subjects” begin to complain or to strike - simply cut the electricity. Or phone connections. Or whatever. They usually calm down fast. But this is obviously weak decision, when the source itself fail for some reasons. As it happened with Star One. As in happened four years ago here, in Sofia. There was a general average with the water reservoir, which supplied the city (built under direct instruction from Moscow right after communists set in power). The whole capital had remained dry for almost six months. Just try to imagine the size of disaster... Therefore, it is obviously inconceivable for a reasonable person to presume, that the rulers of the Federation would be improvident or even malevolent enough to be ready to sacrifice people from *that* many planets, just in the sake of their own security. It is very likely, that, if the Andromedians wasn’t been so close, Blake would spent some time investigating the potentialities of the station. And, realizing the possible results of blowing it up, to try and work out some other way of usage (for sample – first to switch the weather control to autonomic satellites for each planet, as it happened in “Mission to Destiny” and then to blow what remained). But time pressed them all. The masses *never* did. Trust me. After almost ten years of trying to drag the country from the communist swamp, the majority still prefers them. The big masses of people are inert/ sluggish. They need to be *forced* to their future. Otherwise they keep hang on the common evil. Evil, but common, you know... . I would *never* depend on people to help me in my mission (if I was Blake). But, finally, this is the usual way for humankind to develop - there are always a *small* amount of bright people initially, who drag the masses behind themselves. Hrrmmmff. I would not rely on that... Not that he would be incapable for, but... you know... this is *Avon*. ;-) Hellen, the Bulgarian BLAKE: No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man. AVON: Have you ever met an honest man? JENNA: [Glances at Blake] Perhaps. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:24:14 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity" Message-ID: <415b96cc.24f4596e@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sondra asked: > But I tried to go there recently (several times), and the page is > no longer there. Does anyone know of any other place on the Web where > this story can be found? The Fanfic Resource Page moved to: http://www.oddworldz.com/b7fanfiction/index.html Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:35:00 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity" Message-ID: In message , Sondra Sweigman writes > At one point it was possible to find J.Kel's B7 serial "The >Pattern of Infinity" at the Blake's 7 Story Archive: >http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/4667/archive.html Fanfic Resources moved recently after geocities tried to claim copyright on all content. The archive is now at http://www.oddworldz.com/b7fanfiction/archive.html -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 03:09:55 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: <19990803.030957.11966.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:18 -0700 Catharine Roussel writes: >Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to >eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without >Star One. The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and >the Federation continued. The masses did not rise up and seize >control >in the confusion as he must have expected. The result was simply more >"senseless killing and destruction". > Yes, but I've always thought the Andromedan invasion was responsible for the rebellion's failure. I think support for the rebellion was a mile wide and an inch deep. Remember, there was almost no one in the Federation who had ever seen a real democracy. In this way, they were more like ancient Romans hearing about Athenian democracy than anyone in a nondemocratic country today. The Federation was no paradise, but neither was Nazi Germany. Just as the many events after WW I created an actual desire for a firm, nondemocratic government among many people, having all of humanity threatened with extinction--and saved by Servalan's army--gave the Federation new legitimacy. Blake himself dropped his war in an instant as soon as he realized the nature of their common enemy (hey, the only sane thing to do unless your Travis). Unlike many others, he went back to fighting for freedom as soon as the war was over. Or so I've assumed. Hey, wait a sec, what if he didn't? What if Blake didn't contact the others because he wasn't sure if defeating the Federation really was a good thing anymore? What if he began to wonder if freedom and some form of democracy would have been strong enough to defeat the Andromedans? Maybe it took him two years and getting his eye knocked out to get his head back on straight. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:00:54 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Bernard Archard Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit During my most recent viewing of Pyramids of Mars (hadn't seen it in years), I thought I spotted a B7 performer, on Doctor Who as Marcus Scarman. Does anyone have any idea whether Bernard Archard ever had a role on Blake's 7? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:10:30 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: <19990825051051.69577.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Catherine wrote: No. He wasn't wrong. It was probably the *only* way (just about everything else had been tried, including - as Harriet has pointed out - peaceful change from within - see Voice from the Past). I assume what you mean is that he thought it was a *sure* way? Which leads us to... But severely weakened, to the point where they lost control of most of the Outer Planets and were so severely weakened in the centre - on Earth - that *months* afterwards, Sula's coup had a good chance of succeeding. Millions of people *did* get their freedom (which he never gets any credit for, mutter grumble) and obviously grasped it, throwing the dictatorship back into a small shell of itself. It was only the Pylene programme that enabled the Federation to start expanding again in the 4th season. Does *anyone* actually think that Blake or Avon thought they merely had to hit the switch, watch the pretty fireworks and sit back while the Federation fell apart like a house of cards??? Of course they didn't. What you are not allowing for is the aborting of his plans that resulted from the Andromedans. *Not* the fact that they blew it up instead of him, but that - by forcing the Liberator to defend the galaxy, by causing the crew's dispersal *and Blake's loss* - they screwed up the *second* part. The plan was that they would destroy Star One, crippling the Federation, and then Blake would go back to Earth as a intergral (probably leading) part of what would be *the best chance* the rebellion would have had to win in centuries. He knew - they *all* knew - there was still a hell of a lot of fighting to do, and Avon makes his opinion quite clear in Pressure Point - "you are the only one they will all follow". Whether or not Avon was right in that assessment, that Blake was the only one who could inspire the said fight, is something we don't know (being My Not-One-for-Baseless-Compliments Hero, I don't think he'd have said it unless he was sure. Voice from the Past is back-up for the idea). We certainly do know that there was no one else who took that place and gave the rebel groups on Earth their unifying vision and force. Given the crippling effect of the destruction of Star One and the fleet (so crippling that even after months of recovery, Sula still managed a palace coup) I think the chances of a unified rebel push on Earth at that precise point just might have worked (it's not a given, it never was, and he always knew that). I also believe that Blake - with his legend, his vision, his people skills and his unquestioned gift for inspiring allegiance from others - *might* have been able to do it. It was certainly worth the effort. Had Blake *not* been lost - had they gone back to Earth immediately and been able - at that precise time, when the Federation was at its weakest - to unite the different rebel groups in the Inner Worlds, the result might have been different. I think Avon knew that (he never actually believed that the rebellion *could* succeed, but he thought that this plan was the best shot it would ever have), which lent an edge to his search for Blake in the early 3rd season. *He* believed that Blake's disappearance crippled this best shot. This is also why I *don't* think that Blake vanished deliberately (because of what Avon said or whatever). Even had he believed that Avon did mean what he said and did hate him, Blake would still have seen his duty as clear - to go back to Earth and see the thing through or die trying. And the Liberator was the fastest (and it seems the only)way back. They obviously did on some worlds - on a lot of worlds. On others, they didn't. All comes down to leadership - to a unifying force on Earth. Blake might have provided that unifying inspiration. The destruction of Star One *worked* in itself. It succeeded in what it was meant to do - weaken the Federation to the point where a concerted push might have succeeded. Obviously the people that were in charge of the rebel groups on Earth were not able to provide the leadership for that push. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:04:23 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > No. He wasn't wrong. It was probably the *only* way just about everything > else had been tried, including - as Harriet has pointed > out - peaceful change from within - see Voice from the Past). Surely it wasn't the only way. Eliminating peaceful change from within still leaves many options. And if it was the *only* way, it needed to be done right. > Millions of people *did* get their freedom And lost it again. And suffered what chaos in between. > The plan was that they would destroy Star One, crippling the > Federation, and then Blake would go back to Earth as a intergral > (probably leading) part of what would be *the best chance* the > rebellion would have had to win in centuries. And therein we see a major flaw in Blake's plan. If he needed to be on Earth for the rebellion to succeed then he had no business at Star One. Even without the Andromedan invasion, there was no guarantee that Blake was going to survive the Star One part of the operation. He even goes down to the planet. Someone else should have been in charge of taking Liberator to Star One. That part of the operation should have been left in someone else's hands. But Blake hadn't any second-in-command to put in charge. Blake was very reluctant to delegate responsibility; he wanted total control. It's the same Blake flaw we see on GP--"I have to test them myself." > We certainly do know that there was > no one else who took that place and gave the rebel groups on Earth > their unifying vision and force. Another flaw in the plan. If Blake wasn't going to be on Earth, he needed to be sure the rebel groups were prepared to strike if he didn't get there. There was never even an indication that he had alerted anyone else to his plan. It was like Star One was going to be destroyed, then everyone was on their own. There was no concerted strike plan in place. Not only had Star One been destroyed, the Federation was severely depleted by the war. It was far weaker than anyone expected it to be. Surely if there had been any kind of halfway decent plan in place to take Earth, it would have succeeded under those circumstances if it was going to succeed at all. But Blake either didn't have a strike force in place or he had a severely inadequate strike force in place. > I also believe that > Blake - with his legend, his vision, his people skills and his > unquestioned gift for inspiring allegiance from others - *might* > have been able to do it. It was certainly worth the effort. Was it worth the effort? How many people died for what gain? How many who survived were worse off? > The destruction of Star One *worked* in itself. It succeeded in what > it was meant to do - weaken the Federation to the point where a > concerted push might have succeeded. Obviously the people that were > in charge of the rebel groups on Earth were not able to provide the > leadership for that push. That's passing the buck. It was Blake's plan. It was his responsibility to see that adequate forces with adequate leadership were prepared to strike in the wake of Star One's destruction. If such forces and leadership weren't available, then he should have postponed the strike against Star One. We never even saw that he had involved anyone else in his plan. There was no communication from LIBERATOR -- "We're here at Star One; be prepared to strike." or "There's been a complication. Andromedans are here. You are all on your own." There was no mention to his shipmates that any other rebel forces were in place and waiting, and surely he'd have mentioned that when they balked. He thought he could do it himself. He put too many eggs in one basket. And given that the Federation was able to recover from both the destruction of Star One and the losses incurred during the Andromedan War, then it is very unlikely (I'd place the odds at impossible) that Blake's original plan would have succeeded. Taking out the Andromedan complication that prevented Blake from getting to Earth, Blake would have been facing the might of the Federation. A force that could defeat the Andromedan invaders wasn't going to be defeated by Blake and Liberator. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:24:55 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home... Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 03 Aug, Ellynne G. wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:18 -0700 Catharine Roussel > writes: > > >Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to > >eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without > >Star One. The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and > >the Federation continued. The masses did not rise up and seize > >control > >in the confusion as he must have expected. The result was simply more > >"senseless killing and destruction". The Federation was greatly weakened by te war. I haven't time to check the details right now, but they lost a large % of the fleet and a lot of territory. A lot of planets like Helotrix went independent and were reconquered later. So the masses certainly did seize control where they were able to. There was even a rising on Earth (recall Shrinker's description of how he changed sides). The masses simply failed to retain control - probably because of the fact that they didn't have control of the military. > > > Yes, but I've always thought the Andromedan invasion was responsible for > the rebellion's failure. I think support for the rebellion was a mile > wide and an inch deep. Remember, there was almost no one in the > Federation who had ever seen a real democracy. In this way, they were > more like ancient Romans hearing about Athenian democracy than anyone in > a nondemocratic country today. What a wonderful idea! I wish I'd thought of it. > > The Federation was no paradise, but neither was Nazi Germany. Just as > the many events after WW I created an actual desire for a firm, > nondemocratic government among many people, having all of humanity > threatened with extinction--and saved by Servalan's army--gave the > Federation new legitimacy. Blake himself dropped his war in an instant > as soon as he realized the nature of their common enemy (hey, the only > sane thing to do unless your Travis). It blends in very well with my comments above. The rebels failed to gain control of the military because the military would have been very focused on the possibility of another external invasion and thus far less open to internal dissent. They'd been in a major war which would unify them psycholigically and he rebels would probably be seen as trying to destroy that which the Andromedans had failed to destroy. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #254 **************************************