From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #28 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/28 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 28 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Re: [B7L] Re: Tolkien, Moorcock and Fascism Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? [B7L] Servalan's Wardrobe Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Re: [B7L] Re: Fascism Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas [B7L] Where does B7 stand politically? Re: [B7L] Where does B7 stand politically? Re: [B7L] Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Re: Tolkien, Moorcock and Fascism Re: [B7L] Where does B7 stand politically? Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Facism Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? [B7L] Horizon competition Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:58:55 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: SupeStud00@aol.com Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7 Message-ID: <0c$ZWBA$Oan2Ew+9@wriding.demon.co.uk> In message , SupeStud00@aol.com writes >It has always been my opinion that by the time of B7, women will no longer be >in command positions ala Servalan. Before I'm stoned by feminists rocks, let >me explain. > >At some point, especially following a great catastrophe like the one hinted at >in B7, social scientists and engineers will realize that society has degraded >because of the disintegration of the family unit, brought on by the failure of >women to remain home with their chiudren and maintain the family unit (ie- >cook, clean, etc.) As a result, women would be required by the Fewderation to >return to the "Leave It To Beaver" mode of doing things. Servalan would be >barefoot and pregnant, Soolin would be vacuming the rug, Dayna would be >dusting etc. Of course, malcontents like Avon would not exist because a happy >home would have made him a happy productive individual. > >Comments? > How did Ben Steed get onto this list? -- Russ Massey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 07:55:17 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tolkien, Moorcock and Fascism Message-ID: <015a01be3f95$b0b0b400$241aac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Neil, Calle is quite right about Norman Spinrad (not Moorcock) being the >author of =The Iron Dream=, subtitled "Lord of the Swastikas." I have a >copy myself, although it's currently in storage, so I can't refer to it >directly. > >Of course, it's possible that Moorcock may also have done a sendup of >Tolkien, but if so I'm not aware of it. (And it's also conceivable that the >writer of the article you read may have been mistaken.) The most outrageous >Tolkien parody I've ever seen myself is National Lampoon's =Bored of the >Rings=, but I can't remember who wrote it or even if an author is credited. Norman Spinrad rings a bell; I never meant Moorcock in that context. Moorcock didn't write any sendup of LotR as far as I'm aware, instead he wrote a vitriolic essay denouncing it. I've not read 'Epic Pooh' in its entirety, only extracts quoted in a nice big coffee table book (Realms of Fantasy, by Malcolm Edwards and Robert Holdstock). "The little hills and woods of that Surrey of the mind, the Shire, are 'safe', but the wild landscapes everywhere beyond the Shire are 'dangerous'. Experience of Life itself is dangerous. The Lord of the Rings is a pernicious confirmation of the values of a morally bankrupt middle-class ....is much more deep-rooted in its infantilism than a good many of the more obviously juvenile books it influenced. It is Winnie-the-Pooh posing as an epic." LotR, according to Moorcock, "sees the petit bourgeousie, the honest artisans and peasants, as the bulwark against Chaos. These people are always sentimentalised in such fiction because, traditionally, they are always the last to complain about deficiencies in the social status quo." Heady stuff. But there's more. Imazine, the provocative role-gaming zine, reprinted in #17 an article from the London Daily News by one 'Torquemada', who picks up on Tolkien's arguments. (Torquemada may even have been Moorcock himself - Imazine's editor wasn't sure.) "The Lord of the Rings pretends to be about Good and Evil, but actually it's about Nice and Nasty, about the discomfort of social change, the fear of the Real. Tolkien can't bring himself to get close to his proles and their satanic leaders, so we're never convinced that Sauron and Co. are quite as evil as we're told. After all, anyone who hate hobbits can't be all bad." Hear hear. Fondly though I remember LotR, I find it far easier to agree with Moorcock/Torquemada's assessment of the trilogy than with those who set out to defend it (eg; Kocher, LeGuin). I can see some parallels with Moorcock's interpretation of LotR and B7. We've already been through the business of matching characters to archetypal roles. Alta technology, in the shape of the Liberator, as a form of magic: its speed and firepower make it a magic chariot-cum-sword in one. The convenience with which it is freely granted rather than fought for and won is Hobbitish, as is the abundant roominess it offers and the limitless wardrobe. It's little more than a Christmas present under the fairy lights. Scorpio was more convincing (would have been more convincing still without Slave and the clip guns and the teleport and the stardrive...). I'm even more dissatisfied with the predominance of Alphas among the crew: Nation, like Tolkien, prefers to keep the proles at arm's length. >Oh, and while we're on SF neep: only one e in Delany. My apologies to Mr Dlaney. Oh ghod, another long post. Can't we go back to Servalan's wardrobe: I've got nothing to say about that. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 04:01:00 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: <00e801be3f87$b8dd5380$241aac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very interesting first post from Stephen, providing much food for thought. > >Were the Federation trying to breed violent impulses out of the Deltas ? >I know that the show frequently suggests they were drugged but it seems >to go further than that. > >1/ On Earth most people lived in Domed cities. We know that there is a >correlation between certain types of urban environments and increases in >crimes. Presumably the Federation were keen to forestall this. > >2/ Of the two Delta's among the regular crew (I am assuming Gan was a >Delta although this was never explicitly stated) neither was the violent >type. I certainly wouldn't argue with Vila as averse to violence (shooting a trooper in Games was way out of character for him), but he hardly counts as a typical example on his own. That's always assuming he was a Delta in the first place:). Making Gan Delta is a matter of opinion; there's nothing to say you're right or wrong to do so. (Aside: Vila didn't like personal violence, but he was quite happy to fire the neutron blasters - in The Web he said he'd been looking forward to it. He also manned the portable heavy weapon they took outside the ship in Dawn of the Gods.) >3. The other prisoners on the London (I presume most of whom were >Deltas) were a pretty unagressive lot. How many really were Deltas? Blake was probably Alpha, Avon is generally assumed to be Alpha, Jenna implicitly Alpha. Vila claimed to be Delta, Gan is unknown. Porah was a product of Colonial Service training, so probably Alpha/Beta equivalent. Nova didn't sound too convincing as a street-hardened crim, though Arco might fit the bill there. Personally, I think deportation (expensive, perhaps less so than long-term imprisonment but certainly more so than execution) was a way of getting rid of criminals from the more respectable strata of society, under a show of leniency ("See, we're humane, we're not killing them..."). The only prisoners we saw on Exbar were Ushton and Inga; as relatives of Blake's, presumably they had a comparable grade. Doran and the rest of the Calcos mob, on the other hand, are more the Delta type (but then they were banged up in cells, not allowed to roam free on the surface - Calcos was not so much a penal colony as a standard prison). >I know they were >drugged on the ship but that must have worn off by CA. But on CA they were disoriented, confused, and laid low by a bad case of the Curse of Cygnus. And most of them didn't listen to Blake anyway. > >4. Organised crime amongst the Deltas was run by a covert branch of the >Federation (Shadow). It seems logical to assume that the idea was to >co-opt any trouble makers who did get past the genetic screening and the >drugs instead of letting them become nuclei of discontent. It may also >have been felt that having crime dominated by one cartel was easier to >manage than gang warfare. Possible on both counts. > >5. Yes there are still aggressive non-Alphas in the B7 universe. I am >assuming that the Federation Troopers are a separate caste - Jarvik >refers to them as 'Security Grades' in HoK. I am also assuming that >Federation society is less stratified on the Outer Worlds A perfectly reasonable assumption, especially if the Outer Worlds are colonies governed on behalf of the Federation rather than directly by them (which is how I envisage it). >,,,it follows that the likes of Bayban, >and the homicidal types on GP hadn't come under the same sort of >conditioning. They weren't necessarily Federation citizens to begin with. Bayban was wanted by the Federation, but he could have come from anywhere (plenty of references to unfederated worlds in the series - Destiny, Chenga, Auron etc). Gauda Prime was applying for Federation membership, thus also independent. All in all an interesting theory, though I'm not sure I completely agree with it. I'd agree that the Federation would want to do all that it could to minimise crime, but would engineering the populace to be non -aggressive really serve that end? Not all violence is criminal, and not all crime is violent. Still, you've argued a coherent case for a possible scenario. Tiger M noted the need for troopers, which would seem to be real given that there were swarms of them. So maybe only the Deltas were engineered for non-aggression, and the Gamma grades acted as a recruiting ground. (Another aside: I don't personally think the Federation was into expansion for its own sake. The troopers were for policing what they already had, not to add to it). Hang on a mo - those troopers, despite being 'highly trained' (Project Avalon) were bloody rotten shots at the best of times. Stephen, I think you're onto something... Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 09:46:23 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator List Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <01BE3FA2.C28FAC00@nl-arn-lap0063> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Judith wrote: >I haven't read 'Janissaries', but with a title like that I'd have expected more >Ottoman Empire than Roman. >The Janissaries were very much an Islamic institution. The "Janissaries" in these books (it's a trilogy) are human slaves in an intergalactic empire. They are responsible for all administrative tasks and according to the books (or what I remember of them), that is about the same status that the janissaries had in the Ottoman Empire. They are mostly background to a story that is situated on a planet where groups of humans from earth are moved to about every 600 years. In this case a bunch of mercenaries, the book is situated in our time. They run into Highland clans, a Roman Empire and several other groups that still live pretty much the same as they did in our history. And talking about fascism: most of these mercenaries try to shoot their way to supremacy, and fail miserably in what they set out to do. The most successful ones are those who negotiate an alliance with some (and eventually most) of the local population. Doesn't sound like a particularly fascist viewpoint, does it, Calle? Jacqueline Thijsen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 01:10:21 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Servalan's Wardrobe Message-ID: <19990114091021.6529.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Neil said: >Oh ghod, another long post. Can't we go back to Servalan's wardrobe: I've >got nothing to say about that. I do, I do! I was hiding in it the other day (for reasons which need not concern you, youngster) and I kept pushing further and further back through layer upon layer of fur coats (hmm-hmm) and then suddenly I fell out into this magical land which was ruled by this *evil* White Queen... oh, wait, I see what happened, I must have got disoriented from all the naptha fumes and whatnot and come out the same entrance I went in. So never mind. I've got nothing to say about Servalan's wardrobe either. -- Penny "Campus Crusade For Tash" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 10:55:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rob: >Harriet/Una: >>Harriet said: >> >>>In Animals (pause to wonder whether this episode has any serious >>>weight), >> >>I'm sure you people only do this to make sure I'm reading your posts. >> >> >>Una ;) > >Whoosh! Forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but are you >trying to tell us, Una, that you're an "Animals" lover? 'Animals' lover and deeply subtle about it, too. Una ----------------------------------------- In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge. ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:11:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fascism Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lorna B. said: >I've got Bored of the Rings around here somewhere. I think you're >right--there was no credited author, just "The Harvard Lampoon." Some of >the dialogue had me rolling: "Keen are the nostrils of the elves." "And >light are their feet..." And the inspired prophecy received by the Boromir character: 'Five eleven's your height, One ninety's your weight - You cash in your chips Around page eighty-eight.' Una ----------------------------------------- In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge. ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 02:58:49 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <19990114105850.9986.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >><< the powerful prey on the weak and the weak let them,>> >> >>The first law of nature. The weak are so because they choose to be. > > >The first law of nature: the viability of a population of predators >is determined by the availability of prey. Who, then, is truly the >weaker? > >Neil the Ecologist Before you ask who is the stronger or the weaker, you have to decide whether you're referring to the $i$-level or the $p$-level. There's a load of rubbish about this in my thesis... -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:17:37 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <19990114111738.25852.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >The ruling elite can do what they want to, rather than what they >feel they have to. In other words, the ruling elite in the ideal communist society believe in a greater good, to which they are subservient. The ruling elite in a fascist society believe that what's good for them is the greater good. In that respect, the communist/fascist borderline may be in the eye of the beholder. Adopting 20th Century terminology, Blake would have called the Federation fascists; Kayn would have called them communists. >Lenin assumed control of the nascent Soviet Union on behalf of the >Marxist vision, as a stepping stone to global socialism. Lenin hijacked the nascent Manshevik government as a stepping stone towards his own vicious, murderous ends. His politics were less about the greater good than about his pathological hatred for the ruling classes. Bolshevik atrocities did not begin with Stalin. Anyway, back to B7: >What is missing is a concrete statement regarding the Federation's >aims, origins and professed mandate to rule. Likewise Blake's >counter-ideology. We might have seen what the Federation did, but >we never really found out what it stood for. That, I imagine, will be part of Harriet's Platonic B7. Cheers, -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 11:58:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Deltas Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Iain said: >This reminds me of a famous psychological experiment, involving a group >of student volunteers and a small made-up prison. The volunteers were >split into two groups - prisoners and guards. The guards had to enforce >the prison rules over a period of a couple of weeks, at which point the >experiment would end. > >The guards were immediately hostile and sadistic towards the prisoners, >and the prisoners were immediately very passive and subordinate towards >the guards. The guards treated the prisoners like scum because "they >deserved it", and the prisoners accepted their low status. Don't forget some of the gorier details. The people who were 'prisoners' were sprung from their homes late at night and marched off; the experiment had to be ended after 5 days (as opposed to a fortnight) because the 'prisoners' were suffering from anxiety, depression, and physical symptoms of stress. I have the write-up of this experiment somewhere at home. An absolute disgrace. Una ----------------------------------------- In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge. ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:19:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Where does B7 stand politically? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To Neil's question: >> So where does B7 stand politically? Alison answered: >I've been thinking a lot about personality lately, and the flaws and >strengths of different types of personality. The conventional >'western'/Christian/'right wing' opinion And yet all the time I was a Catholic I was a socialist, and since I've been agnostic I've been conservative... Funny one that. My father, a confirmed socialist, had a number of heroes across the centuries. These included such diverse and famous left-wingers as De Gaulle, Napoleon, and Franco! >seems to be that we should work to overcome our personal flaws, thus >making ourselves more 'perfect', more 'complete' more 'good'. The lone >adventurer is of this type. People indulge themselves with the belief >that if only they were sufficiently strong in themselves they would no >longer have to rely on other people, if they were sufficiently 'good' >nothing would go wrong. The Ubermensch idea is the absurd extreme of this >view. Is this purely a 'western'/Christian/'right wing' perspective? It also seems to underpin the type of Protestantism which in turn gave way to secular liberalism - and everyone wants to call themselves a liberal these days, right or left. Very interesting analysis... >In contrast I believe that each person is incomplete on their own. Our >strengths and weaknesses complement each other, because we are not loners >by nature. In other words it is because of our flaws that we need each >other to survive. B7 seems to exemplify this quite well, and moreover the >co-operation takes place without authoritarian leadership. So I would >argue it makes quite a good left wing antidote to conventional adventure >series. And I have just realised why I like it so much, after twenty >years wondering. Great. ;) B7 was always, to me, the story of the outsider, the voice that dared to speak against the crowd. The story of the (psychologically) 'lone adventurer' who understands that s/he can't operate outside of society. Now I'm bullshitting tremendously. Let's continue in this vein, shall we? Actually, although B7 is *superficially* about politics, the political picture painted on-screen is really so crude that the real interest is not in that but in the psychological drama of the people involved. B7 - not really about politics at all. Una ----------------------------------------- In defeat, malice. In victory, revenge. ----------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 03:53:18 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Where does B7 stand politically? Message-ID: <19990114115318.221.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Una: >Actually, although B7 is *superficially* about politics, the >political picture painted on-screen is really so crude that the real >interest is not in that but in the psychological drama of the people >involved. B7 - not really about politics at all. Counterexamples: "The Way Back", "Trial", "Voice from the Past", "Rumours of Death", "Traitor". Besides, *everything* is about politics. Including the Teletubbies. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:51:40 +1000 From: vera@c031.aone.net.au To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mars ain't the kind of place to raise your kids Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990114225140.00864b80@mail01.mel.aone.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joanne MacQueen wrote: >Then again, some theorists in the social scientists have come up with >the idea that one's friends are even more important than nature or >nurture. Having remembered that article on peer pressure and its effects >on teenagers, my brain is now trying to cope with picturing what sort of >child would have been the young Avon's friend. Help me, someone! A weedy, geeky, glasses wearing, timid but brilliant child who nevertheless worshipped the ground Avon walked on while being a little scared of him, and squeamishly grateful that Avon ever bothered with him. Avon would have told himself he let geekboy follow him around, while really desperately needing some human contact and someone to be a buffer between him and the rest of the kids. Sooner or later geekboy would have grown up and got a life. And thus, Avon. Just a little theory. Malissa > >Regards >Joanne > >Out of every hundred people... > >Those who are just: >quite a few, thirty-five. > >But if it takes effort to understand: >three. >--Wislawa Szymborska, "A Word On Statistics" > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 22:21:30 +1000 From: vera@c031.aone.net.au To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990114222130.0084ed60@mail01.mel.aone.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Neil: > What is missing is a concrete >statement regarding the Federation's aims, origins and professed mandate to >rule. Likewise Blake's counter-ideology. We might have seen what the >Federation did, but we never really found out what it stood for. Considering the growth of multinational corporations and the way laws are being remade to favour their every whim, perhaps the Federation is the product of the union of News Ltd and McDonalds? Both rigid grading and peppy sloganeering are common in commercial companies. Malissa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:51:03 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tolkien, Moorcock and Fascism Message-ID: <76ffcd6.369df647@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-14 03:20:01 EST, Neil wrote: << Alta technology, in the shape of the Liberator, as a form of magic: its speed and firepower make it a magic chariot-cum-sword in one. The convenience with which it is freely granted rather than fought for and won is Hobbitish, as is the abundant roominess it offers and the limitless wardrobe. It's little more than a Christmas present under the fairy lights. Scorpio was more convincing (would have been more convincing still without Slave and the clip guns and the teleport and the stardrive...). I'm even more dissatisfied with the predominance of Alphas among the crew: Nation, like Tolkien, prefers to keep the proles at arm's length. >> I agree with most of what you have to say here, but the only character explicitly stated to be an alpha was Blake. I also had the impression that there weren't very many alphas. My own particular theory is that Avon was a beta, as was Tarrant. If Avon had been an alpha, I think he would have already had the status and wealth he so desperately craved and would have had no need for the bank fraud. Tarrant was a line officer, not an aide in a cushy job at HQ. I had the impression that military service was one of the ways in which people could improve their social status in the Federation. Jenna was described as a superior grade citizen, but that is not necessarily synonymous with alpha. All three of these characters seem to have come from backgrounds where they were expected to work for a living. Soolin seems to have come from a working class background, probably gamma. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:06:50 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Where does B7 stand politically? Message-ID: <00ae01be3fca$a33bc6e0$251eac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una wrote: >>Actually, although B7 is *superficially* about politics, the >>political picture painted on-screen is really so crude that the real >>interest is not in that but in the psychological drama of the people >>involved. B7 - not really about politics at all. To which Rob replied: >Counterexamples: "The Way Back", "Trial", "Voice from the Past", >"Rumours of Death", "Traitor". >>Besides, *everything* is about politics. Including the Teletubbies. And that at least I would agree with (the everything, I mean, though the insidious indoctrination of innocent children by the antics of the decadent lickspittle capitalist lackey Teletubbies falls within the umbrella of 'everything'). The treatment of politics in B7 may have been superficial, as Una points out, but it was also explicitly present, and it's that explicit presence that invites 'real interest' from at least some quarters. And since it was a drama serial, not a celebration of the Popular Heroic Peoples Popular Struggle For Victory Over The Unpopular Bourgeois Oppressor, its emphasis was inevitably slanted towards the characters and their psychological dramas. It was through them - principally Blake and Servalan - that the political dimension of the series was made explicit, however crudely it was drawn. Rob missed out one crucial episode from his list - Star One, the ultimate test of revolutionary comitment. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:30:12 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <00b001be3fca$a48250a0$251eac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Clother wrote: > >Lenin hijacked the nascent Manshevik government as a stepping stone >towards his own vicious, murderous ends. His politics were less about >the greater good than about his pathological hatred for the ruling >classes. > >Bolshevik atrocities did not begin with Stalin. Russian atrocities did not begin with the Bolsheviks, unless the Oprichniki of Ivan the Terrible were really a bunch of laidback funloving dudes victimised by a pernicious smear campaign. Given the activities of the ruling classes in pre-Revolutionary Russia, Lenin might arguably have good reason to harbour a pathological hatred of the ruling classes. His older brother was hanged for plotting against the tsar, I believe. The rift between Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was unhealable. One had to win out over the other. Given the total mess that Russia was in in 1917, it's doubtful that the Mensheviks could have done any better than the Kerensky assembly that assumed the reins of power from the Romanovs. Of all the various competing revolutionary movements, only the Bolsheviks had the organisation, popular support and above all determination to consolidate a revolutionary victory. Undeniably it was messy, but it was also necessary in order to hold Russia together. And holding Russia together was vital for the success of the revolution. I won't apologise for Lenin and suggest he wept buckets at the thought of what the Cheka were up to. He was just a teensy bit too ruthless for that. But what he did was what he had to do to make the revolution work. Unlike Hitler, who didn't really have to conquer most of Europe and slaughter 15 million people just for having the wrong genes; or Mussolini, to whom the annexation of Abyssinia was arguably not the most pressing thing he had to do. >Adopting 20th Century terminology, Blake would have >called the Federation fascists; Kayn would have called them communists. Not if Kayn himself was a fascist and proud of it. His admiration of the Federation seemed to rest largely on their imposition of order as a bulwark against the threat of chaos. As an end in itself, this is distinctly fascist in inclination. Vladimir Ilyich leNi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 14:29:53 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101 Message-ID: <00af01be3fca$a3eb40c0$251eac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >In my scenario, the all male dominated government would probably pass a law >requiring women to wear stiletto heels, so as to improve their figures (from >the male prespective.) Servalan would be allowed to wear the heels, she just >wouldn't be allowed access to the throne. Perhaps she, Jenna, Cally, Dayna >and Soolin would form their own resistance of supports.......... > I'm just wondering how long you can keep this up. For as long as you want, I suspect. Neil PS Watch the spelling. You know what I mean. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:05:44 GMT From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray) To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-Id: <199901141505.PAA16836@dux1.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: "Neil Faulkner" >From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray) >Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? > >Dear Neil, > > I was very interested in your belief in 'anarchist dictatorship'. There is one very good fictional example of this in Captain Nemo's state (or statelet) on board the Nautilus in Jules Verne's 'Twenty Thousand Leagues under the Sea'. >Nemo is an Indian rajah, dispossessed by the British, and built the submarine, with the help of like minded people, cutting all links with the terrestrial world, which he despises. > This would be all right, except for the fact that this hater of tyranny is himself ruthless and authoritarian. He uses the cypher 'N', which all in the nineteenth century, particularly in France, knew was the cypher of the Emperor Napoleon; and he attacks ships that do not have the power to hurt him, so there is no excuse of self-defence. Also, when the three outsiders, including the narrator of the story, are captured, he says that he had long contemplated what to do with them, giving examples such as throwing them back into the sea. When the narrator says that this was not the behaviour of a civilized man, Nemo confirms that he was not civilized. > The narrator realised that because Nemo's crew are loyal to him, the only restraints on him are God, if he believes in Him, and his conscience, if he had one. Due to all this, I feel Nemo would answer the criterion of an anarchist dictator. What do you think? > > Yours, > > Murray > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: 14 Jan 1999 16:23:37 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray) writes: > Due to all this, I feel Nemo would answer the criterion of an > anarchist dictator. What do you think? You have argued for Nemo being a dictator. You have not argued for him being an anarchist. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se This posting is protected by a Whizzo Brand Fnord Filter (TM). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 15:20:53 GMT From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray) To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-Id: <199901141520.PAA21056@dux1.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Neil, I agree with you when you said: 'What is missing is a concrete statement regarding the Federation's aims, origins and professed mandate to rule. Likewise Blake's counter-ideology. We might have seen what the Federation did, but we never really found out what it stood for'. A possible indication as to what it stood for, apart from the motto, can be found in remarks made by Professor Kayn, a Federation sympathiser, and High Councillor Joban. In 'Breakdown', Kayn calls the Federation 'the greatest force for order in the known universe'; in 'Hostage', Joban reminds Servalan that Blake and his crew 'impede progress, and more importantly order. Order, Servalan. It is all that matters'. So the Federation is big on progress, but particularly on order. Presumably, several centuries from now, we humans have found out the attitiudes of most other intelligent life forms in the galaxy towards us. Unlike 'Star Trek: The Next Generation', where every other intelligent life form is seen as decent when you get down to it, and which can be reasoned and negotiated with, most of the dominant races even being humanoid, the B7 galaxy is a more dangerous place, with aliens, both within and without, shown to be as likely to be hostile as friendly. Presumably, the Federation had to fight 'evil' aliens, and could present itself as the 'thin black line' protecting humanity against them, an ideology reinforced by the Intergalactic War. Perhaps its reconstitution after that war was helped by this ideology, and a desire by many to return to the 'good old days' before that war. Yours, Murray ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 16:14:23 GMT From: mjsmith@tcd.ie (Murray) To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Facism Message-Id: <199901141614.QAA19978@dux1.tcd.ie> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Calle, Nemo is an anarchist due to his despising of all terrestrial governments to the extent that he removes himself and his crew from their reach by living in the sea. He likes the sea because it is 'pure and free'. While humans can fight wars on its surface, they do not own it; and all creatures that live there are free of authority. The paradox is that he despises terrestrial governments for being oppressive and rejects them; but he then becomes a dictator. I should perhaps have said that he was an anarchist who ended up _becoming_ a dictator. The paradox is a similar one to a communist who becomes a dictator to (he says) properly safeguard the revolution. If an anarchist dictator is a contradiction in terms, so is a communist one. Yours, Murray > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:44:55 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <19990114164455.10216.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Neil: >Russian atrocities did not begin with the Bolsheviks, unless the >Oprichniki of Ivan the Terrible were really a bunch of laidback >funloving dudes victimised by a pernicious smear campaign. While we're on the subject of Russian dictators, I think Catherine the Great would have had something to say to that Ben Steed character who's been trolling his way through this list. Other comments (and possibly questions) to follow, maybe on the Spin List. You're on that, aren't you Neil? -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:07:13 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <165f3644.369e2441@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-01-13 18:41:11 EST, you write: << The conventional 'western'/Christian/'right wing' opinion seems to be that we should work to overcome our personal flaws, thus making ourselves more 'perfect', more 'complete' more 'good'. The lone adventurer is of this type. People indulge themselves with the belief that if only they were sufficiently strong in themselves they would no longer have to rely on other people, if they were sufficiently 'good' nothing would go wrong. >> I'm not comfortable with this statement. I think it is a simplification and distortion of how people view the world. The "Christian" view is that we cannot overcome our flaws; we must look outside ourselves and adhere to God's laws for any chance at happiness, contentment, or a "good" life. The so-called secular humanists, on the other hand, tend to look upon the individual as capable of self improvement and moving towards "perfection". As you say elsewhere in your post, we are not loners by nature. But I don't think that it is valid to rely on others to help you "improve". While with luck, you may find yourself associated with the proper mix of people to bring out your best features, and you theirs, it is equelly likely that your social group will serve to accent your worst features. Many Klansmen, for instance, are honest, wonderful family types.( Yes, I know some). But by their association with a particular social group, we also see their worst ascpects featured. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I don't disagree totally with your post, I think you might need to leave more room in it for the virtues of self-reliance. Thank you though for posting something that really made me stop and think, something I just don't seem to have time for lately. Deborah Rose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 12:07:22 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Space City Subject: [B7L] Horizon competition Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII The new Horizon newsletter is just out and it looks very good indeed. The new format is very attractive and there's a lot of interesting articles including one on 'Gambit' with an interbiew with Aubrey Woods who played Krantor and a look at bits that were edited out of the script to make it fit into the available running time. The photo reproduction in the whole magazine is excellent - I'd swear that the pictures look crisper than in older issues. There's a long interview with Peter Tuddenham and apparantly the general aim for future issues is to continue this pattern, having a major interview and a focused look on a particular episode. Certainly sounds good to me. If you're not already a member of Horizon, I'd give it serious consideration. The magazine is produced to a standard that compares well with anything you see on the shelves in the newsagent. It's on glossy paper, is 98 pages long and I've just realised that there's far more meat than usual as they haven't got the usual merchandise section that takes up so many pages of previous issues. (I imagine they'll either do it separately or perhaps in just one issue a year) There's a lot of reviews - of the Sevenfold Crown and The Logic of Empire. The general feeling (like my own) is that TLOE is by far the better of the two. There's also write-ups of Deliverance. There are also several articles written by the people who appeared in 'Lost in Space' and theatre reviews of recent plays featuring Gareth Thomas, Michael Keating, Stepen Pacey and Paul Darrow. However, the bit that really caught my eye is on page 94. There's a competition to submit a plot outline that includes Blake for a future radio play. The best entry will win a prize, and will also be submitted to Brian Lighthill (producer of the radio plays) for consideration. Entries should be sent to Diane Gies and reach her before 31 March 1999. The following coments are my own and not Horizon's: I got the impression from Brian Lighthill at Deliverance (though I devoutly hope that he may have changed his mind since) that he was most likely to do a story with Blake if it was set in the 4th season. A flashback might be one possibility with Avon and Vila (as they were present in all seasons) telling one of the other crew members about something that had happened in the past. If this route was followed, it might be best to keep the nunmber of characters in the plot to a mimimum. In other words, the 'past' portion of the story should ideally involve Avon, Blake and Vila. The reason for this is finance. Every additional actor adds to the budget. If 4th season crew are involved, then it's harder to afford 1st season crew. Thus, don't try to have all the cast from both seasons involved. (This is from Brian Lighthill's comments) Another possibility is having a plot in the 4th season that involves both Blake and the Scorpio crew. It's tricky as they can't meet without wrecking continuity unless you're very careful. eg. Dayna might be able to meet Blake as she might not recognise him and didn't see him on Gauda Prime until events were already far gone. Tarrant meeting Blake would be impossible. I suspect most people would want a story actually set in the first or second season, but I'm not sure that this is what Brian Lighthill wants (though I do hope I'm wrong). In the end though, whatever kind of story you would go for, please enter this competition. Help put Blake back in Blake's 7! Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 18:53:46 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Tanith Lee and her Fascism? Message-ID: <006d01be3fef$9f2b47e0$ca8edec2@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me, Deborah Rose ><< The conventional > 'western'/Christian/'right wing' opinion seems to be that we should work to > overcome our personal flaws, thus making ourselves more 'perfect', more > 'complete' more 'good'. > I'm not comfortable with this statement. I think it is a simplification and >distortion of how people view the world. The "Christian" view is that we >cannot overcome our flaws. Darn it, you are right. Well perhaps it is a modern western thing then. Perhaps even a Hollywood thing? > But I don't >think that it is valid to rely on others to help you "improve". I didn't mean that. I meant that our only hope is, not to achieve every perfection on our own, but to co-operate with others with our various strengths. However your point about corruption by the group is well taken. .> I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I don't disagree totally with >your post, I think you might need to leave more room in it for the virtues of >self-reliance. Thank you though for posting something that really made me stop >and think, something I just don't seem to have time for lately. Deborah >Rose > You're welcome. Your answer has equally made me stop and think. Alison -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #28 *************************************