From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #72 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/72 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 72 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Fannishness RE: [B7L] Non-vegetarian Pratchett deities RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7 RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7 Re: [B7L] Fannishness [B7L] Mary-Sues Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's XI v Babylon XI cricket match at Redemption Re: [B7L] Fannishness [B7L] Charged with attempted filking... [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit re: [B7L] Fannishness Re: [B7L] Fannishness Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking... Re: [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness) Re: [B7L] Fannishness [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking... Re: [B7L] Fannishness Re: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7 [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs [B7L] More B7 game stats Re: [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare [B7L] Re:corgi liberator Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:24:13 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <36D0878D.B1144D53@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hanneke wrote: > Real Mary Sues are easy to recognize. They're *very* > pretty, *very* clever and extremely brave. In gen > stories they end up kissing Avon, in het stories they > end up in bed with Avon, and in slash stories they end > up in an Avon/Tarrant sandwich. :)))) Then perhaps I shall force myself to write one in which Mary Sue is *not* very pretty, *not* very clever, and *definitely not* brave. Wait a minute-- I'm not Vila!!! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:22:04 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Non-vegetarian Pratchett deities Message-ID: <19990221222204.16022.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Jacqueline said: >Irredeemably damned means we take away your chocolate and I >come to sing in your house. Truly a fate worse than death. Taking away chocolate is fairly cruel. However, you might want my brother to do the singing, especially when he comes home from the oil rig in Bass Strait - tuneful will be very far down the list of adjectives you could choose from. >> >Acolyte in charge of torture and singing in the holy vegetarian >> >crusade >> Hopefully, they are not one and the same thing! >> Regards Joanne (probably about to join the irredeemably damned >>for that last comment!) >Nah, we don't punish people for being right. But thankyou for the warning, anyway. As for singing, I shall, very shortly, be posting my very first attempt at a filk, as a means of stopping the idea from tormenting me. Be as kind or as cruel as it warrants. But the tune may not be something all the Australian members of the list are familiar with, so I will have to request the indulgence of everyone else for this. Regards Joanne (in trepidation) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:38:21 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7 Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB3F@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Joanne wrote: > That would be torture, but not the kind Jacqueline was thinking of. Paul > reading that one, oh dear! > Does that mean that in this case Paul would make you suffer prettily? Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:42:31 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7 Message-ID: <19990221224231.17649.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >> That would be torture, but not the kind Jacqueline was thinking of. >> Paul reading that one, oh dear! > noises> >Does that mean that in this case Paul would make you suffer prettily? >Jacqueline It would certainly make a change from Avon suffering beautifully, wouldn't it? Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:55:05 -0600 (CST) From: hill susan a To: blakes 7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Feb 1999, Hanneke wrote: in reply to mistral or Penny or Helen > > Mary-Sue Something). Why Mary-Sue and not > Bobbie-Jean? No idea. > > Because the very first Mary Sue was written by a Mary > Sue Something, whose orginal character was also named > Mary Sue. Well, at least that's what they told me. :)) Not quite. The first Official Mary Sue story was written by Paula Smith in the days when Star Trek was the only fandom. Her character was named Mary Sue, and the story was a parody of just the type of story mistral describes - wishfulfilling, with the Mary Sue character as beautiful, competant, and beloved of Kirk, Spock, or both. This character gave the name to the genre. I was not in fandom when the Mary Sue story was written, but I heard about it (and read the story) from friends who were. Susan Adair ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:57:53 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Mary-Sues Message-ID: <36D08F71.9B1A7266@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Penny, If Avon falls for a mutoid, is that a Mary-Sue? Or possibly a Mary-Suzanne? (Maybe it's just birds of a feather.) Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:22:24 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Message-ID: <19990222082224.55416@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 09:47:09AM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > And > then, of course, there is my personal pet peeve of fanfic-- stories that > blantantly insert an obvious author avatar as a major but completely > unengaging character, generally as a love interest for one of our > heroes. IMO (not so humble), these should come with a warning label-- I > am not a voyeur. I would not put my romantic fantasies in the public > eye, and I would prefer not to read anyone else's. (Not that I'm against > romance-- I don't mind couples made up of recognizable series > characters.) But I'm surprised that in all the back digests I've read, > this issue never comes up. Is nobody else annoyed by this? Or is there > some tacit agreement about which I'm unaware, either not to mention > this, or for everybody to tolerate this kind of story in order to have > his own tolerated? Hmm, I don't mean to yank anybody's chain, but this > puzzles me. Oh, I assure you, plenty of people are annoyed by this. This kind of story even has its own label: they're called "Mary-Sue" stories. Apparently due to the fact that the very first (or first well known) story of this type, a Star Trek story, had as the avatar character, a Lt. Mary Sue. As for why it doesn't seem to have come up on this List, I'm not sure. Maybe because people have tended to discuss the series more than fanfic? It certainly comes up with periodic regularity on some of the fan fiction Lists that I'm on. And it appears to be a practice universally condemned on the one hand, and argued about on the other as to whether a particular story is a Mary-Sue or not, considering that some people take *any* story with an original (female) character and call it a Mary-Sue, whether the character bears any resemblance to the author or not. The other variation on Mary-Sue discussion, is whether self-insertion fiction (where the original character is explicitly the author, with all flaws intact, rather than an idealized fictionalized character) is a Mary-Sue of that kind, whether it is possible to write good self-insertion fiction, and what the good ones are. To which I would say, yes it is possible to write good ones, and I suggest you go off and read "The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard". (-8 Kathryn A. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:27:42 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's XI v Babylon XI cricket match at Redemption Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sally wrote (about my interest in Tarrant in his cricket whites): > Not single-minded or anything, are we, Carol? Consistency is a virtue that I try to practice. > We're supposed to be > watching the *game*. Oh yes, the game... I had a feeling I was forgetting something. > (Avon in white...hmmm. Be worth staying awake for) For sure. Think of how pretty Avon looked when he went down to the moondisk planet. You keep your eye on him while I watch Tarrant. We can leave the detail work to Harriet. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:34:27 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <36D0D042.21C7@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Another 'Mary-Sue' problem story type, besides the 'X becomes love interest even if it means making Established Character act in an uncharacteristic fashion' is the 'X comes along and saves all of the regular heroes who have suddenly become incompetent enough to have to rely completely on the stranger'. Either way, ick. OTOH, the creation of new characters is valuable in ways Neil has pointed out, in that one can explore areas not filled out in the Canon. One could perhaps put out an entire zine themed with Blake's 7 universe stories consisting primarily of secondary characters, such as Avalon, Tyce, Del Grant; and originals with a Mutoid focussed story or one about one of the failed uprisings only mentioned in dialogue within the Canon/ That could be very exciting. Further, I'd love to see PGP stories that take up with half the crew bring in new rebels. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:40:21 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking... Message-ID: <19990222034022.9031.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain I may live to regret this...especially as Hotmail thinks I've already sent this, but I didn't receive my own posting back, as is usually the case. So forgive me if you've received this previously, because I'm not so sure of forgiveness for what follows... I Make Computers (tune: I Make Hamburgers, by The Whitlams) My first customer was Meegat She came in for a computer with the lot, no Windows "Hey, that's an Apple Mac," I said And we started going out. My second customer was Soolin She came in for defragmentation morning tea, each day And I said, "Your disks don't need all that rearranging, Do you wanna come out tonight?" I said, "I'll bring Vila, he's got a lot of money [1] And he'll take us to the bars where they've got a view He'll buy us that soma [2] They give it to you in glasses They put green antifreeze in the top And it don't taste too bad I'm telling you, telling you. My third customer was Servalan She came in for greater RAM capacity "More power," she said "Well now, now you're talkin'." She took me home to meet her mutoids. My fourth customer was Anna She came in for nothing I could see except me So it was I too was making connections of a sort Within an hour I make computers, I get all the girls And I take them out to dinner And I give all a whirl And if they program I keep them If they don't I keep them too But I teach them all how to be logical Like you. [3] [1] Because he stole it, of course [2] What else? [3] The image ended up being Avon singing this adoringly to Orac. This makes me wonder, today, if I was suffering from heatstroke, yesterday when I wrote this, and didn't realise. Time to find my shell and hide in it yet again. Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:09:17 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness Message-ID: <199902212309_MC2-6B52-E58E@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mistral wrote: >Be warned about the Julius Caesar; it has good scenes and awful >scenes, and the bits with Pacey and Keating are short; still, if you >like star-gazing, it has lots of famous actors, and Charleton Heston >comes off pretty well. The earlier version with James Mason, Gielgud (as Cassius instead of Caesar) and Marlon Brando is probably the best one to see, though I have never seen an entirely satisfactory version of what is my favourite play. Never mind about the absence of Pacey and Keating - Blake and Avon are in the text already. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:33:41 +1000 From: "David Henderson" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit Message-ID: <009601be5e1c$87ce6be0$9537db89@lemon.jcu.edu.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Harriet: >Iain wrote: >>(This would be so much easier with a blackboard, you know.) > >Perhaps, if we could rustle up a blackboard at Redemption (hey, some of us >should be there a week from now!), you and Neil could stage an extra >workshop to demonstrate the possibly contesting, possibly complementary >theories? And then someone could post the images to the Redemption web site for us clueless and geographically challenged ones. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:00:13 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun 21 Feb, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > And then, of course, there is my personal pet peeve of fanfic-- stories that > blantantly insert an obvious author avatar as a major but completely > unengaging character, generally as a love interest for one of our heroes. IMO > (not so humble), these should come with a warning label-- I am not a voyeur. I > would not put my romantic fantasies in the public eye, and I would prefer not > to read anyone else's. (Not that I'm against romance-- I don't mind couples > made up of recognizable series characters.) But I'm surprised that in all the > back digests I've read, this issue never comes up. Is nobody else annoyed by > this? Or is there some tacit agreement about which I'm unaware, either not to > mention this, or for everybody to tolerate this kind of story in order to have > his own tolerated? Hmm, I don't mean to yank anybody's chain, but this puzzles > me. The type of story you refer to is commonly called a 'Mary Sue' and lots of people hate them. You certainly aren't alone. The fact that a name exists for them probably says it all really. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:02:56 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <19990222090256.12335.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain From Mistral - The most common victim of this distortion appears to >be Avon--can you really imagine Tall, Dark, and Nasty turning into a puddle >of mush just because some woman throws herself into his arms (which I've >quite literally read--oops, wait, the mush part was metaphorical)? Well we all saw what he did when one thre herself at his *feet* - jumped four feet back with a 'let's not start all that again & spent the rest of the episode copping cheek from Vila... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:51:30 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking... Message-ID: <36D136B2.BC729222@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne MacQueen wrote: > [3] The image ended up being Avon singing this adoringly to Orac. This > makes me wonder, today, if I was suffering from heatstroke, yesterday > when I wrote this, and didn't realise. This really makes me wish I knew the tune. Thanx for sharing your filk.Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:57:13 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: OT, Fannishness Message-ID: <36D13808.DE0AB0E6@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet Monkhouse wrote (Re Julius Caesar): > The earlier version with James Mason, Gielgud (as Cassius instead of > Caesar) and Marlon Brando is probably the best one to see, though I have > never seen an entirely satisfactory version of what is my favourite play. I've never seen this version; but if it's your favorite play, then your opinion must surely be considered informed; I intend to be on the lookout for it. I've been looking for an improvement over the other one. Thank you. 8-DMistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:31:11 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Message-ID: <36D13FFE.BA9F9ECA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > It certainly comes up with periodic regularity on some of the fan > fiction Lists that I'm on. And it appears to be a practice > universally condemned on the one hand, and argued about on the other > as to whether a particular story is a Mary-Sue or not, considering > that some people take *any* story with an original (female) character > and call it a Mary-Sue, whether the character bears any resemblance to > the author or not. Yes, this was sort of my point, although apparently I didn't express my thoughts clearly (big surprise ;-P). The proliferation of the type I was referring to tends to make one suspicious of all original, plot-significant (female) characters, particularly those written in 1st-person. And I do *like* original characters-- the rebellion would get dull if our heroes always stayed on the ship and never interacted with anybody else. I could be quite happy about new characters, even a permanent addition to the crew complement, as long as they were clearly *characters*, serving the purpose of *story*, instead of one more bad cliché. But I've begun to wonder whether it isn't safer for an author to just avoid new characters altogether, in order to avoid them being thought of as Mary-Sues (which would rather frighten me). However, considering the volume of response my inquiry/rant has generated, perhaps now I know why it never comes up-- all forget I said anything, I'm quite embarrassed. Re self-insertion fiction (Not Mary-Sues): > To which I would say, yes it is possible to write good ones, and I > suggest you go off and read "The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard". Actually, I've been looking forward to reading this one, when time and budget allows; now that you've endorsed it to me, I shall move it higher on my list. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:30:54 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness) Message-ID: <36D13FED.76EEA114@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > It certainly comes up with periodic regularity on some of the fan > fiction Lists that I'm on. And it appears to be a practice > universally condemned on the one hand, and argued about on the other > as to whether a particular story is a Mary-Sue or not, considering > that some people take *any* story with an original (female) character > and call it a Mary-Sue, whether the character bears any resemblance to > the author or not. Yes, this was sort of my point, although apparently I didn't express my thoughts clearly (big surprise ;-P). The proliferation of the type I was referring to tends to make one suspicious of all original, plot-significant (female) characters, particularly those written in 1st-person. And I do *like* original characters-- the rebellion would get dull if our heroes always stayed on the ship and never interacted with anybody else. I could be quite happy about new characters, even a permanent addition to the crew complement, as long as they were clearly *characters*, serving the purpose of *story*, instead of one more bad cliché. But I've begun to wonder whether it isn't safer for an author to just avoid new characters altogether, in order to avoid them being thought of as Mary-Sues (which would rather frighten me). However, considering the volume of response my inquiry/rant has generated, perhaps now I know why it never comes up-- all forget I said anything, I'm quite embarrassed. Re self-insertion fiction (Not Mary-Sues): > To which I would say, yes it is possible to write good ones, and I > suggest you go off and read "The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard". Actually, I've been looking forward to reading this one, when time and budget allows; now that you've endorsed it to me, I shall move it higher on my list. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:33:12 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: Neil Faulkner Cc: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness) Message-ID: In message <000a01be5d66$b788dd40$5c1eac3e@default>, Neil Faulkner writes >Penny wrote: >>I didn't mean to imply I was an English (ie Literature) major -- the >>only English I took was the prerequisite Freshman course. I've >>definitely read more Pratchett than Shakespeare. And more comic books >>than all (other?) literary genres put together, I'm sure. What I *meant* >>was that my post-secondary education had hardened my heart to >>Constructive Criticism, a.k.a. People Who Are Obviously Stupider Than >>You Trying To Prove That You Are Stupider Than Them. > >It isn't always like that. I've had some extremely helpful input from >Judith P, Russ Massey and others over the years. And Judith isn't >_obviously_ stupider than me... Hmm... Meaning *what* exactly. Nope. I must be too stupid to work out if I'm being insulted there :) > My general reaction to constructive >criticism runs something like this: > >On receiving it - 'The bastards. How dare they?' >Two hours later - 'Okay, so they might have a point.' >24 hours later - 'Okay, so they _do_ have a point.' >One week later - 'I really hate rewriting, but...' > >Mind you, nobody's yet managed to tell me how to construct a manageable >plot. That's how most of my fanfic ends up unfinished. > If anyone enlightens you then put them in touch with me next. One word of advice - know where you're intending to end up. The beginning and middle can take care of themselves as long as have some end point to steer them towards. More often than not my stories that are unfinished are the ones that I wrote with no clear idea of the climax. -- Russ Massey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:08:09 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: mistral@ptinet.net Cc: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In message <36D0469D.B1F75473@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes >Neil said: > >> You can't write 'the' characters, only your own interpretation >> of them. This is what the scriptwriters themselves did, with consequent >> irregularities - by and large it worked, though, because the series does not >> delve too deeply into character, being primarily plot-oriented. Fanfic, >> OTOH, is frequently character-dominant, and the various interpretations of >> the characters show up more starkly. >> >I'd really like some concrete examples from you about why you find the >show to be plot-oriented. I can't stop laughing, because I've always >considered B7 to be pretty much a plot-free zone, with the main emphasis >on characters, relationships, and philosophy. I'd always considered that Neil and I were in fairly close agreement on what makes good B7 fiction, but I'm with you here. B7 struck such a chord with me originally because the characters were so much more engaging due to their character flaws and the black humour that permeated the series. There *are* some very well plotted episodes (Star One, The Way Back, Gold and er... I can't think of an example from the third season off hand) among all the stock plots and sciffy clichés, but no matter how hackneyed the plot or risible the special effects what kept me watching every week and still fascinates me even now is the inter-personal dynamic of the non-team. >I don't mean laughing at >you, just laughing at how poles apart we see it; and since I've asked >for concrete examples, I'll give some for my side: 1) My best friend >loathes science-fiction; she won't read it, and makes disparaging >comments when her husband and I are watching it; but I showed her >'Volcano' and 'City at the Edge of the World' ( I think the series C eps >stand alone the most easily), and she liked it; she's looking forward to >seeing more of it, and her comment was basically 'Oh, I see, it's in a >science-fiction setting, but it's not really science-fiction, it's about >the relationships between the characters.' Volcano? I can't imagine ever showing that to someone as their first taste of B7, but obviously you must be a good judge of character. And it has one of the best B7 bondage scenes of course :) Whoops - thought I was on Space City there. > With no coaching from me. 2) >When it comes to writing, plot is my weakest suit; but by the first time >I saw series C, I could often predict whole episodes from just the first >scene or two, occasionally from just the title; so as bad as I am at >plotting, I just can't consider that they had much of a plot. 3) Bounty, >which as far as I can tell, has no plot at all, but has two very telling >bits of character/relationship illustration: the first, when Blake has >just smashed Sarkoff's record and is holding the butterfly case in a >threatening manner; that takes my breath every time, as it just >crystallizes all of the things that I dislike about Blake (not that I >dislike Blake: there are also plenty of things to like about him), It's an all time favourite character-revealing scene of mine as well, and yet was probably improvised at short notice because of the paucity of Nation's original script. > and >second, when Vila is having difficulty removing Blake's collar, and he >and Avon are sniping at each other, he tells Avon "Shut up--please", >whereupon Avon turns back to the door he's opening and smiles to >himself-- that is series A and B Avon and Vila at their best. These tiny >moments are the things that make B7 a hit with me. And the back-biting against Jenna when she's assumed to have sold them out together with the total lack of any apology afterwards when their shown to be wrong. Surely it should have been obvious whose side Jenna was really on when she kicked their restraints out of sight of the guard without revealing that they were attempting to free themselves? I never understood quite what there was no reaction to that. > OK, that's my view; >now show me some plot. > My summary of the plot would be: The Liberator is taken over. Jenna joins the attackers. Has she sold out the crew? The rest is padding. The Sarkoffs needn't be in the story at all. > >I do agree that much fanfic comes across as too character-dominant; >which is to say, I think it tends to dip too deeply into characters' >heads, and often times with the wrong voice--a Cally that sounds more >like Jenna, an overly introspective Avon, a Vila who thinks like an >Alpha *without* a corresponding justification for it. Characterisation is fine, but it bores me unless it also comes out of plot. I don't enjoy stories based around two or more characters locked in a room holding a conversation. There has to be a motivating force. Character insights come out of observed reaction to events, not from introspection. > Film avoids this >by using dialogue and action to show character, which it must do, as it >has the camera's-eye viewpoint, and not a narrator. IMHO, that is what >successful fanfic must do more of, showing as opposed to telling. Yes, I think that's what I'm trying to say. > And >then, of course, there is my personal pet peeve of fanfic-- stories that >blantantly insert an obvious author avatar as a major but completely >unengaging character, generally as a love interest for one of our >heroes. The fabled 'Mary Sue'. I find it totally off-putting unless it's done subtlely. -- Russ Massey ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:39:14 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <224DB8C5B38@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Antone interested in getting back to that interesting temperment analysis strand? Vick Sociopath and INTP ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:45:47 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Charged with attempted filking... Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joanne was pulled over by the filk police and given a citation of merit for: > [3] The image ended up being Avon singing this adoringly to Orac. This > makes me wonder, today, if I was suffering from heatstroke, yesterday > when I wrote this, and didn't realise. I love the image of Avon singing of his conquests to Orac. I wonder if Orac had any stories to tell in return? I've often fancied that Slave and Gambit (the computer in "Games") would make an interesting pair, but I can't imagine anyone or anyit putting up with Orac. Quick comment on the Michael-Steven "Julius Caesar." I agree that it is a very uneven production, with some dazzling moments and other moments where the performer(s) appears to be reading from a cereal box. It was disappointing (for me) that some of Lucius's (Steven's character) lines from the play did not make the movie. :( But little-boy Steven delivered the lines he had quite competently. His wobbly walk to illustrate his character's recent return to wakefulness was also well done. Michael was outstanding in his bit part, very easily managing to stand out in the crowd, and looked very fetching. I even--shock!--liked his facial hair. I bought a "professional" videotape of the play in a two-box set of Charlton Heston's work ("Call of the Wild" was the other movie), but found that the audio track was badly distorted. I returned it for a different copy only to find it was the same. The movie does occasionally show up on US cable channels. One of my sisters taped it off one of the all-movie stations for me a few years ago. The sound on that is fine, though the visual on my "professional" copy is better. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:54:06 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness Message-ID: <36D1455D.A792E211@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Well we all saw what he did when one thre herself at his *feet* - jumped > four feet back with a 'let's not start all that again & spent the rest > of the episode copping cheek from Vila... Yes, well, at least he didn't dismember her or some such... actually, I thought he behaved quite well, considering; I always find when I watch that episode that I'm embarrassed for Avon and Meegat both (not that I'm against hero-worship, you understand ). Still and all, I have to say that being worshipped seems a lot less emotionally invasive than being drooled over by a total stranger. Vila, on the other hand, would enjoy both (can you say 'Vila's Royal Mounties'?) Hmm... I wonder how Tarrant would have reacted if he'd been with them when they met Meegat? How would it have affected the Avon/Tarrant alpha-male power struggle? I always chuckle over Tanith Lee's decision (conscious or not) to keep them separated (locationally) in the episode 'Sand'. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:50:01 +1100 From: "Afenech" To: "B7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7 Message-Id: <11495986593923@domain6.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral suggested: > >Actually, there is a wish that might be doable; I fancy an audiotape of > >G.T. and P.D. reading the sonnets. .... Julia seconded: > Now that *is* a nice idea. Wonder if anyone can be persuaded to take it > up? Or 'Julius Caesar' - I would buy several!!! of both -smile- It is something I have sometimes thought about - why, oh why, are those two lovely voices not used more for audio-books? Pat Fenech ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:31:57 +1100 From: "Afenech" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare Message-Id: <11502328693972@domain6.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all -smile- Paul Darrow used to say the role he'd most like to do is 'Coriolanus' and it's a roel I'd love to see him play. Pat F ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 20:09:52 +0200 From: "422ami" <422ami@nt52.parliament.bg> To: "Helen Krummenacker" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's background-- speculation Message-Id: <199902221158.MAA25246@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: > I think he is incorrigible in a totalitarian environment, where > it is a crime to challenge authority. Where it is a crime to challenge > authority, then the desire comes to challenge authority through crime. Let me, basing on my own experience in living in totalitarian society, to say, that the usual way, one use to challenge authority _never_ is a crime. The crime level in the totalitarian societies is even lower, than in democratic ones. I think, Avon's crime is his attempt to escape from authorities more, than attempt to challenge them. I can't see him in the shoes of that hero from Terry Gilliam's 'Brazil' - the Helpman, who challenges the rulers, using smart gadgets and making small repairs, unpermitted from the authority. This is dangerous game and the risk to be captured always exists. Avon values his own life more, than to spend it, playing games with the Federation. (This sort of people make totalitarian societies _that_ steady...) The Bulgarian Hellen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:14:01 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <36D14A08.B62422A4@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > Antone interested in getting back to that interesting temperment > analysis strand? > > Vick > > Sociopath and INTP Very much so -- it has always seemed to me to be a pretty inexhaustible subject; but then, I adore psychology. What did you want to say about it? Mistral INTP (100% introversion scores, borderline P/J, borderline sociopath) -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:30:24 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: I've turned up my original notes for the missing characters, so here are the missing members. AVON Points 243 Strength 12 Dexterity 14 Intelligence 17 Health 13 Advantages: Attractive Alertness (1 level) Charisma (1 level) Voice Strong Will (2 levels) Disadvantages: Stubbornness Odious Personal Habit (Abrasive arrogance) Skills: Computer Programming 18 Electronics (Computers) 18 Electronics Operation (Computers) 17 Engineer (Electrical) 16 Electronics (Sensors) 15 Electronics (Force Shields) 15 Electronics (Teleport) 15 Economics 15 Mathematics 15 Physics 15 Savoire-Faire (Alpha) 15 (default level) Accounting 14 Beam Weapons (Blaster) 15 Brawling 13 Stealth 13 (he's always sneaking around the ship and eavesdropping - this should probably be another odious personal habit :)) Broadsword 12 Sex Appeal 12 (default skill level) Holdout 12 (default skill level) - remember the lockpicks in his boot? TARRANT Strength 13 Dexterity 14 Intelligence 13 Health 14 Advantages: Handsome Charisma (2 levels) Disadvantages: Chivalric Code of Honour Overconfidence Sense of Duty to Friends and Crew Skills: Free Fall 12 Beam Weapons (Blasters) 16 Brawling 14 Astrogation 14 Astronomy 11 Acting 11 (as seen in his first appearance) Leadership 14 Savoire-Faire (Military) 13 Sex Appeal 13 Strategy 13 Tactics 13 Piloting (Large Craft) 16 Administration 11 Merchant 11 DAYNA Strength 12 Dexterity 16 Intelligence 12 Health 14 Advantages: Beautiful Animal Empathy Acute Vision (1 level) Disadvantages: Bloodlust Impulsiveness Oath: Kill Servalan Overconfidence Sense of Duty to Friends and Companions Skills: Musical Instrument (Lyre) 11 Singing 14 Acrobatics 14 Swimming 15 {Well it seems pretty likely given her Sarran seashore upbringing) Throwing 13 Beam Weapons 16 Bow 15 Guns 16 Judo 13 Knife 15 Armoury (Beam Weapons) 15 Armoury (Gunpowder Weapons) 15 Spear 14 Shortsword 14 Tracking 11 Navigation 9 Electronics Operations (Weaponry) 13 Mathematics 12 (A necessary requirement for other skills) Tactics 9 Holdout 10 (all those remarkably concealed devices) Stealth 14 Demolitions 11 SOOLIN Strength 11 Dexterity 17 Intelligence 14 Health 12 Advantages: Beautiful Combat Reflexes Disadvantages: Sense of Duty to Friends and Companions Skills: Running 11 (I've no idea where I originally got this from!) Beam Weapons (Pistol) 21 Guns (Pistol) 21 Brawling 16 Fast Draw (Pistol) 18 Fast Draw (Magazine) 18 Armoury (Guns) 13 (default level) Survival (Woodlands) 14 (her youth on GP) Computer Operations 13 Law 11 Agronomy 12 (From her upbringing) Criminology 10 (default level) Acting 14 Stealth 12 (Default) Streetwise 14 Pilot (Large Craft) 7 (default) Merchant 13 -- Russ Massey Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 3BZ (01903 217334) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:37:55 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 and Shakespeare Message-ID: <36D14FA2.307FDCEF@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Afenech wrote: > Paul Darrow used to say the role he'd most like to do is 'Coriolanus' and > it's a roel I'd love to see him play. You are all making me quite wish that we were all quite rich and could bankroll a production company for the express purpose of producing Shakespeare's plays using B7 stars and guests in all the roles. . Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:25:59 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re:corgi liberator Message-ID: <36D14CD6.B11E117A@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Penny said: "He didn't care for her outfitting the interior all red shag carpetting and bongo-balls either, as I recall. Picky picky." And as for the fluffy dice hanging in front of the view screen... -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:21:56 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: <36D159F3.A963A653@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ Massey wrote: > AVON > Points 243 > > Strength 12 > Dexterity 14 > Intelligence 17 > Health 13 > > SOOLIN > Strength 11 > Dexterity 17 > Intelligence 14 > Health 12 No, no, no . I realize these are established scores for the games, but I really must protest. Soolin genuinely deserves a 16 intelligence (and perhaps a 12 strength, but that's too iffy to argue). She's *very* nearly as smart as Avon. It's true that she appears to think holistically (women usually do) whereas he clearly thinks in a linear fashion (men usually do), but those are stylistic differences, not quantitative ones. If you're using the term intelligence strictly as a measure of I.Q., I might forgive you , because Avon obviously has the edge there, *but* Soolin has far more savvy, and frequently catches things that his linear approach misses (Assassin, Warlord). And, IMHO, she could think rings around the rest of our heroes, with the probable exception of Blake. Soolin's a wonderful character, and I'd love to have half her brains (not to mention looks). I notice you rather cleverly avoided giving Avon an acting score :D I resist the temptation to make a point-by-point comparison between Avon and Tarrant. Apples and oranges, really. Or pomegranates and lemons? (Just kidding, Tarrant Nostra.) A pity I've seemed to have missed the other scores. I'd have loved to see them, particularly Jenna, Vila and Blake. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:30:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much caffeine Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 Feb 1999 mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > Oops! I accidentally sent this to Nina instead of the list. Sorry, Nina. I humbly > apologize. But I still need an astrophysicist. You called? > > > > I seem to recall that they called the thing in Breakdown a 'gravity well' and a > > 'gravity spiral' -- I don't recall it being called a black hole. Is a 'gravity > > well' the same as a black hole? Is there even such a thing? Quick, who's got an > > astrophysicist in his pocket? > > > > > Maybe the secret is in the application of silly special effects? Or maybe > > > someone had just gotten a REALLY BIG blow dryer and wanted to try it out? > > The latter explanation does seem the most astrophysically reasonable. However, let's have a go of making some sense out of what less hardy theorists might dismiss as a bunch of hastily-written filler to pad out yet another woefully-underrunning Nation script. The object is described as a gravitational vortex, and can lead to the destruction of inadequately-navigated spacecraft. It is localised and has low luminosity (otherwise it wouldn't have been such a surprise). It exhibits unstable magnetic fields, which are strong enough to significantly affect spacecraft. It is red and swirly ("Swirly thing alert!"). My guess is a massive, highly magnetised compact object, along the lines of a neutron star but perhaps made of more exotic matter than boring old neutrons. It is rapidly rotating and accreting matter from its surroundings (a dense interstellar cloud) at a slow rate. (The accretion rate is slow enough that the accreting material does not get too hot: its temperature is about 3000K, giving a dull red glow). It's hard to reconcile the low temperature with such a strong gravitational field that the Liberator might be destroyed by tidal forces. Instead, let's try an intense magnetic field. If the intersellar cloud has an incredibly strong magnetic field which is roughly oppositely directed to that of the compact object we get an interesting model. There will be a magnetopause, where the oppositely directed fields meet. The gas will diffuse very slowly across the magnetopause, limiting the accretion rate and hence limiting the temperature increase. Where the fields meet, intermittent magnetic reconnection will take place: the fields join together and twang apart like stretched elastic bands, opening holes in the magnetopause and accelerating particles to high energies. This process will also involve considerable magnetohydrodynamic turbulence. What with reconnection, turbulence and extremely large field strengths, this magnetopause would be a pretty dicey region to fly through. It would be best avoided, but could be negotiated with skilful piloting. It would at first glance appear to be just an ordinary accretion disk (or "gravitational vortex" as Blake puts it). In the event, they just fly straight through the center. This isn't such a bad move. They cut down their exposure to the worst of the turbulence to two short periods (entering then leaving the magnetosphere), and are lucky enough that those two brief crossings are not too disastrous. Iain -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #72 *************************************