From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #97 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/97 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 97 [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Steven and Stephen on stage [B7L] Syndeton Experiment--New Broadcast Date! Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] "Shadow" in frame library [B7L] Mary Sue Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Re: Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...) Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Fannishness and cliches [B7L] Re: Assassin Re: [B7L] Vila and Es [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] [B7L] Seeking frame library requests Re: [B7L] Vila and Es [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest. Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you [B7L] only geeks need apply Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Vila the vamp [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest. Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Re: [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches Blake-Avon-Tarrant (was Re: [B7L] Assassin) Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?] Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?] Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?] [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? [B7L] Cult TV guests [B7L] Redemption competitions Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:01:15 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool Message-ID: <19990311220116.27200.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >A friend of mine went to see the show in Richmond the other night >(and sweetly picked up a program and a poster for me :). She reports >that Steven had a new haircut and was looking good. If she's that much like you, Carol, she'd report he was looking good no matter what sort of haircut he had! >All the usual groveling applies: Not what one expects from the Godmother. Be strong, woman! Regards Joanne Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:18:06 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <19990311221807.14317.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Neil said: >Caroline Holdaway might not be much of an actress, Cancer is even >less of an assassin - how many real assassins redo their hair in order >to gloat before taking their time over a kill? Having captured Avon, >she should have just shot him. Better still, she should have shot him >without going to the trouble of capturing him first. Obviously >someone who's never read the Evil Overlord list. Mmmm. All this is very true, particularly about the quick trip to the hair salon (probably the same one patronised by Soolin, from the looks of it). But there'd be no episode after they got on board Cancer's ship (or anybody else's, for that matter). You might call it the K9 effect - unless the very thing that might be useful to someone (in Cancer's case, the common sense to have read the Evil Overlord list ) is put out of action, there is no episode/movie. Neil, you might have to collaborate with Harriet on that platonic B7. The rest of us will have keep practicing (and practising) our suspension of disbelief. >Besides, Stardrive was written by James Follett, who also wrote >Dawn of the Gods, which I consider _the_ worst B7 episode ever, so >bad I eventually decided to refuse to recognise it as canon. Ooh. I knew Stardrive had a bad reputation, but Dawn of the Gods as well? Not having seen either, you are making me wary of watching either of them if I ever have the opportunity to. Stop it, Neil! Regards Joanne (who is being irritated by her brother, who refuses to tell her something B7 related until she gets back to Newcastle this evening. Not even repetition of the word "please" could shift his resolve, the so-and-so!) Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:43:24 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool Message-ID: <340ceb5d.36e8470c@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > If she's that much like you, Carol, she'd report he was > looking good no matter what sort of haircut he had! You obviously haven't heard me curse his hairstyle in "Blythe Spirit" or How a Gorgeous Man Can Make Himself Ugly. :) My friend who saw "Birthday" is equally discriminating (and an Avon fan to boot). She's also bolder than I am; she told Steven that he looked less than pretty in Blythe. So I trust her to know a good haircut when she sees one. (Not that I'm trying to encourage fans to go to the play and report back to me or anything... ;) > Not what one expects from the Godmother. Be strong, woman! Ooops, you're right. I can't find my Marlon Brando accent; John Wayne will have to do. "Y'all get your hides to that play and report back to me or y'all will be swinging from them thar cottonwoods come August." Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:43:27 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > Yes, I love that bit too. He looks so comfortable waiting for > Tarrant to put "Cancer" in the right position to be threatened properly. > Which Tarrant, very obligingly, does. Good man, Tarrant. Very useful > Tarrant is a sweetie. I love that scene myself. Tarrant is such an obedient, helpful puppy. He'd charge into the fires of hell for Avon, and Avon knows it. I've long been a fan of "Assassin." It's refreshing to see Avon volunteer himself for the dirty work (allowing himself to be caught by the slavers). The visual image of Avon and Tarrant stalking about Cancer's ship side-by- side, guns drawn, is worth the price of admission alone. Poor needy Tarrant is so easy for Servalan and Cancer to read. They know just what to do to get him on "Piri's" side. It was also refreshing to see one of the women, Soolin, save the day. Tarrant is perfectly scrumptious at the end when he tells Dayna that he thinks she left their rescue to the last minute on purpose. Both Tarrant and Avon do look a bit worn; Soolin seems to have come through the last-minute rescue in much better spirits. Carol Mc Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:16:53 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36E85CF4.7EFD7DD5@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mac4781@aol.com wrote: > Tarrant is a sweetie. I love that scene myself. Tarrant is such an obedient, > helpful puppy. He'd charge into the fires of hell for Avon, and Avon knows > it. Not surprising from an A/T fan :) But I shall admit here that I'm beginning to think that the A-T relationship is the mirror of the B-A relationship; by the end of series D, it does begin to look as if Tarrant is secretly sort of hero-worshipping Avon; he does seem in places to give in to Avon rather too easily, possibly wanting his approval. Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special undertones, doesn't it? Mistral -- "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to like him"--Avon Well, you didn't expect me to end a post by complementing Tarrant, did you Carol? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:07:43 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] Steven and Stephen on stage Message-ID: <51dc44cd.36e868df@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Direct from Diane, more hot off the presses news on B7ers on stage. Here's an additional venue for Steven Pacey in The Birthday Party: The Alhambra, Bradford (BO 01274 75200) 6-10 April And Stephen Greif is set to stomp the boards as well: Stephen Greif will be appearing in "Immaculate Misconception." Previews 16 March, playing 22 March-24 April at the New End Theatre, Hampstead, London NW3 (BO 0171 794 0022). Carol Mc AND FINALLY I had a call from Brian Lighthill today asking me to urgently pass the word that the Beeb have changed the broadcast date AGAIN for the Syndeton Experiment - it's now going to be on BBC Radio 4 on Saturday 10th APRIL. (with the CD release on 5th April, which Horizon is selling at a discount, of course). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:07:44 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] Syndeton Experiment--New Broadcast Date! Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Important news on the second B7 radio play: Diane got a call from Brian Lighthill today asking her to urgently pass the word that the Beeb have changed the broadcast date for Syndeton Experiment. Again! It's now scheduled to be on BBC Radio 4 on Saturday 10th APRIL. (Moved up from the May broadcast date!) With the CD release scheduled for 5th April. (Horizon is selling the CD at a discount.) Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:13:42 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <7665fee7.36e87856@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral: > Not surprising from an A/T fan :) But I shall admit here that I'm beginning > to > think that the A-T relationship is the mirror of the B-A relationship; Ack, no, anything but that... (You do know how to send me screaming. ) While it's true that both relationships involve a person in charge and an independent-minded second banana, there are some basic differences. Avon isn't comfortable in the second-string quarterback spot. He follows Blake grudgingly. Tarrant is more than willing to be a follower, as soon Avon establishes that he's willing to lead. I think Avon had it a lot easier than Blake ever did. > by the end > of series D, it does begin to look as if Tarrant is secretly sort of > hero-worshipping Avon; he does seem in places to give in to Avon rather too > easily, possibly wanting his approval. I think Tarrant is putting out an extra effort on behalf of the team. And it's pretty easy for him to agree with Avon when their 4th season goals so often coincided. But Tarrant isn't a guaranteed yes-man for Avon, which I appreciate. Nor does Avon appear to take Tarrant's support for granted. I especially like that at the beginning of "Sand" Avon specifically asks Tarrant what he thinks about the plan to go to Virn. And I also like that Avon respected Tarrant enough to confide in him about the fake Orac in "Orbit" (which follows up on Avon's confiding in Tarrant in "Stardrive"). But are you telling me that you think Avon hero-worshipped Blake? > Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special > undertones, doesn't it? Now this sounds interesting. You'll have to tell me what you mean by "extra- special undertones." > "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to > like him"--Avon > > Well, you didn't expect me to end a post by complementing Tarrant, did you > Carol? But that was a compliment. Avon recognizes that human nature being what it is, people are going to resent Tarrant for being so well-favored. Avon was explaining to Soolin why Vila might not have much use for Tarrant. Just a short time earlier, Avon admitted, "He's good material, is Tarrant, one of the best." Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:04:11 -0500 (EST) From: Claudia Mastroianni To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-Id: <199903120404.XAA24071@login5.fas.harvard.edu> Carol Mc (Mac4781@aol.com) wrote: : Mistral: : > Not surprising from an A/T fan :) But I shall admit here that I'm beginning : > to : > think that the A-T relationship is the mirror of the B-A relationship; I think this is a marvelous notion and I'm about to watch the series over again and I'll have to see how this pans out. :) : > by the end : > of series D, it does begin to look as if Tarrant is secretly sort of : > hero-worshipping Avon; he does seem in places to give in to Avon rather too : > easily, possibly wanting his approval. : But are you telling me that you think Avon hero-worshipped Blake? I think that given the different temperaments of Tarrant and Avon, what shows up in Avon as bristling and fighting and in the end playing along with Blake, might well show up in Tarrant as "hero-worship". But I don't know, this is a first reaction. : > Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special : > undertones, doesn't it? : Now this sounds interesting. You'll have to tell me what you mean by "extra- : special undertones." JEALOUSY! Tarrant told Avon Blake had set him up! Tarrant caused Avon to kill Blake because he didn't want Avon and Blake to be a team again! Wow, what a scenario. : > "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to : > like him"--Avon This quote is perfect for this theory... I was thinking it before I read this far. :) Claudia (peering out from lurkerdom) -- "Three million years in the future, the only suriving human rebel is Kerr Avon, his only companions, a creature that evolved from his pet thief, and a hologram of his dead shipmate, Gan. Additional; it has been two months since we discovered the still working ancient cloning facilities in deep space and Avon is running out of Blake's to shoot." --John McKenzie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:07:49 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] "Shadow" in frame library Message-Id: <4.1.19990311220742.00b6ecd0@dallas.net> Message-Id: <4.1.19990311220742.00b6ecd0@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Shadow" has been added to my B7 video frame capture library. The library is located at: . - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 04:20:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Mary Sue Message-Id: <199903120441.EAA05645@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've heard male Mary Sues called "Mark Sam." There's a charming example in one of the older =Blake's 7: The Other Side= zines (the adult companion zine of =Chronicles=, the longrunning Australian zine that has the most issues of any B7 fiction zine I know of), called "Marcus Sampson and the Orabanda Dragon." A male Australian veterinarian finds himself in the B7 universe and has an affair with Servalan (it's not explicit, as I recall, and it's a cute story, if any of you gen-only fans want to look it up). I thought Marcus Sampson was a genuine Mark Sam, since the name on the story was Greg Dales; but it turns out that's a pseudonym of Moira Dahlberg (as she herself explains in some other zine), so it's a fake Mary Sue. I think there are a good many male Mary Sues in pro adventure fiction. Conan the Barbarian and his ilk strike me as really obvious. When it comes to B7, I think that Avon serves as Mary Sue (or Mark Sam if you will) for a lot of male readers and writers. And I recall one blatant example on this very list, a while ago now, that had the crew PGP being rescued by an original male character (dashing and brilliant, of course) whose name was an anagram of the author's. In another fandom-- ever read the SF novel by George Takei? So obvious it's downright embarrassing (but also kind of sweet, since it's such a classic first fan story that I'm sure he really did write it himself instead of having it ghosted). Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:14:25 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36E8A2B1.1802FA7A@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oops, sent this to Neil by mistake, sorry Neil Some comments by way of explanation, not argument: Neil Faulkner wrote: > The whole slave trader thing is camped up into an > embarrassing farce (there is such a thing as real slavery - it deserves > better treatment than this). This is a serious question and deserves a serious answer. IMO, the world is a brutal place to live, and we all experience some truly nasty things over a lifetime. You laugh, you cry, or you shut down. I'm trying very hard to learn to laugh. I don't laugh a specific, realistically depicted acts of aggression against *anybody*, but I have no compunctions about laughing at obvious comedic fakes. Also, since I don't see B7 as SF (it fails the test that I have been taught -- the plot must grow out of the technology, not be transplantable to another culture), but rather as swashbuckling in space, the slavers don't hit a jarring note with me, as they are rather a swashbuckling staple (cliché), and I see the whole episode as camp. > It might not be 'playing the game' to cite external factors when slating an > episode, but when there is insufficient incitement to suspend your > disbelief, you're just left feeling that you're watching a cheapskate > production cobbled together by people who know next to bugger all about > science fiction. Or assassination. Or youth culture. Possibly a cultural gap here. Forgive me for being honest when I say that this is, in my experience *only*, pretty much the American attitude about nearly all BBC sci-fi. Outside of a small group of Dr. Who and Red Dwarf fans I know, I'm fairly regularly ridiculed for liking British TV. I say "I was watching Dr. Who" and my friend says "Oh, isn't that the one with the bubble-wrap monster?" Having suspended my disbelief enough to watch 'The Way Back', 'Spacefall', and the other forty-odd eps that precede 'Assassin', I find it quite easy enough to make the comparatively tiny further stretch to 'Assassin'. Suspension of disbelief is pretty much an act of will; you either want to badly enough or you don't. If you start throwing things out because you don't like them, you might as well give up the show and start writing your own (generic you here). I think most writers would not be pleased by readers throwing out whole chapters of their novels. Besides which, I love puzzles, so sorting the thing into some sort of logic is half the fun. B7 is my recreation. When I want social relevance, I'll watch a news magazine. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:15:55 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Message-ID: <36E8A30B.4C03A650@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This one got misdirected too! More apologies, Neil. Neil Faulkner wrote: > A question I meant to ask on this topic before things got a bit over-heated > (and no, I am not trying to turn the temperature back up) - it seems that > some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does > this hold true when the writer is male? I suspect that male writers come under less scrutiny in this area, particularly in a fandom with a predominantly female readership. > I can see why a female writer might > want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that > motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent? Others have answered this specifically; I'll only reiterate that I think the problem comes when the character is used for obvious wish-fulfillment instead of for the story. > I freely admit that I've used original characters (male and female) as a > personal mouthpiece in some of my stories, but in all such cases I was using > them as a transient vehicle for the ideas I wanted to express, not as > personal avatars. The problem that I personally see here (and admit that others might not) being twofold: first, using characters as a mouthpiece *is* *automatically* using said character as a personal avatar; a character is supposed to express his own ideas, not the author's. The two may sometimes coincide, but this should only happen when it serves the story. It is in the story as a whole where ideas and themes should be discussed; and even then you cannot be sure that the conclusion that the story seems to draw is actually the author's personal opinion. If making a point is more important than good storytelling, one should (IMHO) write an essay. Sermonizing and good stories *rarely* *deliberately* coincide. Second problem (which really goes back to the questions *I* ignorantly asked so long ago): It's really just a matter of degree, isn't it? And I was looking for an easy answer, a cutoff point, so to speak; but perhaps there's not one definitive answer. *Every* *single* *character* comes *completely* from within the author -- you *cannot* portray, deliberately or accidentally, anything which is not inside you in some degree (holds true for any art form -- my personal experience being in the performing arts, predominately music). You do not have to be a murderer to write one, but you must extrapolate from your own feelings and possible motives. This connects back to your comments (Neil) about each writer having to construct a personal canon, beginning with what we see onscreen. You always ought to know more background for a character than you put in the story . This also connects back to Sestina2's question about Paul Darrow/Avon; it's impossible to say how much of Paul Darrow is in Avon; but I must respectfully disagree with Paul and Janet Lees Price (re: Vicks lovely post on PD); *every* *bit* of Avon that actually exists is in Paul Darrow. (Avona's post on this is quite eloquent). Even when you're working with someone else's words, you have to find a way to make them your own -- acting and singing both. Even if the performance (or story) comes out *very* differently from what you intended, it all comes from you; oddly enough, this even applies to complete artistic incompetence, in a way (not what I think is going on with Paul, BTW). So every character is an avatar of *sorts* -- the problem in fiction arises when it gets to the point that the reader is aware of it and bothered by it -- apparently this varies from reader to reader; I just don't know where the *likeliest* cutoff point is. And now I'll backpedal a bit . The part of a character that doesn't come from the creator, comes from the observer. I suppose the cutoff point is where the artistic vision clashes with what the observer wishes to see in the character. Which is probably more narrowly defined in an established fandom than in a book from scratch, or a new sculpture, or even one of Shakespeare's plays, theatre being such a fluid medium. I know that I personally am truly horrified by elevator music . YMMV. Mistral (somebody pass me the jar of creepy crawlies, please) -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:24:30 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36E8B31D.92E4CFA2@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit All of the following just my own take, of course. Mac4781@aol.com wrote: > While it's true that both relationships involve a person in charge and an > independent-minded second banana, there are some basic differences. Avon > isn't comfortable in the second-string quarterback spot. He follows Blake > grudgingly. Avon originally really doesn't want to lead *or* follow, he just wants to be left alone. He was a good check for Blake though, just as Tarrant was for him later. > Tarrant is more than willing to be a follower, as soon Avon > establishes that he's willing to lead. I think Avon had it a lot easier than > Blake ever did. Well, actually, I see this more as Tarrant and Cally wanting Avon to lead in the opposite direction that Avon really wanted to go in. Tarrant was willing not to be in charge as long as Avon was doing something Tarrant thought was worthy. Avon really would have been content to play and explore, I think -- 'Kairos', 'Ultraworld', 'Deathwatch'. Avon was trying at this point, I think, to free himself from the spectre of Blake. This is, IMHO, the source of Tarrant's nasty speech to Avon in 'Sarcophagus'. > But Tarrant isn't a guaranteed yes-man for Avon, which I > appreciate. Nor does Avon appear to take Tarrant's support for granted. But these are also true of Blake-Avon. > But are you telling me that you think Avon hero-worshipped Blake? And I thought I'd made that clear on several occasions. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. If you want the reasons, you'll have to say so; I've been too verbose today, and it would be rather long. Avon did not want to admire Blake, but found that eventually not only did he admire Blake, but trusted Blake and wanted Blake's approval, a pattern I see being repeated with Avon-Tarrant. > > Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special > > undertones, doesn't it? > > Now this sounds interesting. You'll have to tell me what you mean by "extra- > special undertones." Claudia's hit it -- Jealousy. Not necessarily actually wanting Avon to kill Blake (although that could start a good PGP), but Tarrant thinking (subconsciously): "This is the man that you trust so much? That you gave up everything to find? He's betrayed us all, he's not worthy of your trust. I would never betray you; yet you treat me like a fool!" Tarrant wanting to protect Avon, and yet also wanting Avon to know that Blake is not the friend to him that Tarrant is. Largely shock, of course, over Blake being so different than Tarrant had been led to expect. > > "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to > > like him"--Avon > But that was a compliment. Actually, I see it as the equivalent of calling Tarrant a naive idealist. He's expressing solidarity with Vila's opinion -- Tarrant's youthful enthusiasm is dangerous and annoying. > Just a > short time earlier, Avon admitted, "He's good material, is Tarrant, one of the > best." Ooooh! Now this is a very complex bit of (INTP) psychology. Avon says this in a *very* sarcastic way -- practically chortling. IMHO, the correct interpretation is the truth masquerading as a lie masquerading as the truth. On the surface, to most people, obviously true; Avon using sarcasm to make it a lie; but underneath, Avon knows it *is* true -- simply doesn't want anyone to know that he thinks so. That would be opening a chink in Avon's armor. Very typical of Avon. Never risk a direct lie when you can lie with the truth. But he didn't intend Soolin to see it as anything but sarcasm -- or at most to leave her wondering if he meant it. Oh, la, never thought I'd enjoy an Avon-Tarrant conversation so much. Grins, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:11:08 -0000 From: "Susan Bennett" To: "Lysator" Subject: [B7L] Re: Assassin Message-ID: <015101be6c25$9032f140$3993cbc1@compaq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:33:21 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36E87CF0.C27A7F9@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:39:22 +1030 From: "Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001" To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I am asking these questions in a manner by which they can be both answered canonically and as criticism acknowledging the fictional nature of the show. Fell free to respond in either, or both, frames of mind. Why do the communications devices in the show project an oval image upon some rather incongruous looking places? Really good visual technology in the future, or over reliance on rather poor visual technology now? (Servalan rings Travis. Image appears on Travis' forehead) Travis (Mk II): I can't see anything! My head is stuck in the cupboard! Why do the Space City badges exclude four crew members? Is there another badge featuring them, in honour of that rarest of slash fiction, Gan/Zen/Orac/Slave? Why does David Jackson's voice come out of the diagnostic machine in "Breakdown"? Does it deliver its verdict in the voice of the patient for some psychological reason, or was this to pay him back for having to act like a total 'nana in this story? Why do the two Obsidianites running up to meet the Federation troopers in "Volcano" appear and disappear as they move towards them? No comment is made of this in the story, does it really occur? Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy with such a cheap overturning of such a story? Does anyone else feel Terry Nation was drawing from some form of stereotyping in his scripts? NOT that there is anything wrong with that, if done in style. Or that character development was a sucession of cliches? As an example, the development of the Daleks featured a couple of major turnarounds, from misunderstood victims to merciless aggressors, from an allegory about the cold war to one of the second world war. Can anyone see such trends in Blakes 7? My question about the running order of season three included an assumption that Avon was the instigator in "Terminal", he was aware of the transmissions and chose to respond rather than responding immediately upon hearing them. This also presumes some kind of watershed event, such as "Warlord" was for season four, and so "Rumours of Death" seemed the obvious choice. Were either of these assumption fair, and why? I was impressed by the resounding choice of Douglas Camfield as dream director, especially as he only ever worked on one episode! Every time I watch "Duel" I don't quite know why it is so gripping, being such a hoary old cliche, until his name appears in the credits. Is one episode of this series enough to adequetly judge the mans work? If so, would it be equally fair to judge Andrew Morgan or Viktors Ritelis? What of the other 14 directors who worked on the show? Who is everyone's next favorite? Least favorite? Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:52:14 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? Message-ID: <36E8E3CD.817207EA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001 wrote: > Why do the two Obsidianites running up to meet the Federation troopers in > "Volcano" appear and disappear as they move towards them? No comment is made of > this in the story, does it really occur? I wondered about this a lot, until I finally decided it must be a rather clumsy way of indicating the passage of time as the runners approach the troopers. > Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television > production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an > early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy > with such a cheap overturning of such a story? Ick. I'm happiest with the stun-gun theory, which at least has canonical precedent. > My question about the running order of season three included an assumption that > Avon was the instigator in "Terminal", he was aware of the transmissions and > chose to respond rather than responding immediately upon hearing them. This > also presumes some kind of watershed event, such as "Warlord" was for season > four, and so "Rumours of Death" seemed the obvious choice. Were either of these > assumption fair, and why? My impression is that he felt free (and possibly relieved) not to search for Blake as long as there were rumors of Blake being everywhere; it was simply not feasible. But after the loss of Anna in 'Rumors', and with what appeared to be fairly strong evidence of Blake's whereabouts, Avon felt *compelled* to go looking, once he had established the possibility of authenticity. > What of the other 14 directors who worked on the > show? Who is everyone's next favorite? Least favorite? I like Vere Lorrimer; also Mary Ridge (except for 'Animals'); but then I'm usually out of step on these things :) Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:56:22 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36E8E4C6.4B79A6F9@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aagh! Misaddressed once, lost once, third time the charm. Oops, sent this to Neil by mistake, sorry Neil Some comments by way of explanation, not argument: Neil Faulkner wrote: > The whole slave trader thing is camped up into an > embarrassing farce (there is such a thing as real slavery - it deserves > better treatment than this). This is a serious question and deserves a serious answer. IMO, the world is a brutal place to live, and we all experience some truly nasty things over a lifetime. You laugh, you cry, or you shut down. I'm trying very hard to learn to laugh. I don't laugh a specific, realistically depicted acts of aggression against *anybody*, but I have no compunctions about laughing at obvious comedic fakes. Also, since I don't see B7 as SF (it fails the test that I have been taught -- the plot must grow out of the technology, not be transplantable to another culture), but rather as swashbuckling in space, the slavers don't hit a jarring note with me, as they are rather a swashbuckling staple (cliché), and I see the whole episode as camp. > It might not be 'playing the game' to cite external factors when slating an > episode, but when there is insufficient incitement to suspend your > disbelief, you're just left feeling that you're watching a cheapskate > production cobbled together by people who know next to bugger all about > science fiction. Or assassination. Or youth culture. Possibly a cultural gap here. Forgive me for being honest when I say that this is, in my experience *only*, pretty much the American attitude about nearly all BBC sci-fi. Outside of a small group of Dr. Who and Red Dwarf fans I know, I'm fairly regularly ridiculed for liking British TV. I say "I was watching Dr. Who" and my friend says "Oh, isn't that the one with the bubble-wrap monster?" Having suspended my disbelief enough to watch 'The Way Back', 'Spacefall', and the other forty-odd eps that precede 'Assassin', I find it quite easy enough to make the comparatively tiny further stretch to 'Assassin'. Suspension of disbelief is pretty much an act of will; you either want to badly enough or you don't. If you start throwing things out because you don't like them, you might as well give up the show and start writing your own (generic you here). I think most writers would not be pleased by readers throwing out whole chapters of their novels. Besides which, I love puzzles, so sorting the thing into some sort of logic is half the fun. B7 is my recreation. When I want social relevance, I'll watch a news magazine. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:02:05 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Neil said: >how many real assassins redo their hair in order to gloat before taking >their time over a kill? Virtually all in the shows I watch. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:07:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Joanne said: >What Soolin says after she slaps Piri is classic (like her comment that >Orac/Muller's android wouldn't know where to start in the business of >fulfilling her every desire). Yeah, I like all those bits. I like the line about pain making Piri a better artist a great deal as well - really brilliant bitch, Soolin! >Tarrant, unfortunately, is still suffering from the effects of >testosterone - from what we've seen of Piri at that stage, the only >possible thing Soolin could be jealous of is Piri's ability to arouse >Tarrant's protective instincts, and one doubts a woman that capable of >looking after herself would want that for herself. I've tended to assume that Soolin wasn't jealous of Piri - she just found her irritating. Plus Piri is an embarrassment to our sex, which makes her annoying and worth slapping. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 03:52:42 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: Russ Massey CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...) Message-ID: <36E9000A.FB09F012@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Russ. Meant to say this sooner... > >What *exactly* is the definition of sex-appeal in Gurps again? (And isn't what > >we > >were discussing?) > > GURPS puts it more nicely, but it's essentially the skill of > manipulating someone into having sex with you. As an interesting > sidenote it's actually a Health based skill in the game, whereas I'd > argue it's a Mental one. Physical attractiveness is already taken > account of as a modifier to the reaction role anyway. Tee, hee. Now that I understand the definition better, I must in fact take back everything I said. Tarrant's and Avon's numbers are right with respect to each other. But it was still fun. Begs the question, though, how come Jenna gets the skill then, and Vila doesn't? (Unless, of course, you think of Kerril as a weak-minded woman who only thought she'd fallen in love with Vila because she'd slept with him when expecting to die?) > Pedestrian does not necessarily equal wrong :) Yes, but unusual is more fun :) > I can argue any > viewpoint you like, but when it comes to writing for 'my' Avon the > default setting is a mixture of conflicting motivations and emotions. > Humans are complicated. Only maniacs have a single reason for doing > something. I look forward to meeting 'your' Avon. Which of your own stories do you like the best? > Point taken. The arguments for a subconscious death-wish certainly > have a lot of corroborating evidence. He used to tick Blake off for > taking far less risky actions than the ones he does. You notice though, > that most of them only involve direct risk to himself, whereas Blake's > schemes tended to involve the entire crew. Wants to take the risks himself, not take everybody with him. IMO far nicer than Blake in that way. I'm not sure I quite see what you're getting at here, though. Oh yes, Blake's bard skills -- would that be due to his persuasiveness? Do you see him as a great orator? Grins, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:57:39 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <43e96282.36e90133@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Apologies to all for my misposts last evening, sending through a blank and not properly editing the other one. I should not be allowed near a computer in the evening when my brain has sunk to half mast. (Not that I'm much more competent at peak brain time, mind you. ) Mistral wrote: > Avon originally really doesn't want to lead *or* follow, he just wants to be > left alone. He was a good check for Blake though, just as Tarrant was for him > later. I agree with all that. And I very much empathize with Avon. There's a lot to be said for only being responsible for oneself. > Well, actually, I see this more as Tarrant and Cally wanting Avon to lead in > the opposite direction that Avon really wanted to go in. Tarrant was willing not > to be > in charge as long as Avon was doing something Tarrant thought was worthy. Except that Avon didn't appear to be coming up with any plans. It was as if he was deliberately distancing himself most of the time. > Avon > really would have been content to play and explore, I think -- 'Kairos', > 'Ultraworld', 'Deathwatch'. Avon was trying at this point, I think, to free > himself from the spectre of Blake. This is, IMHO, the source of Tarrant's > nasty > speech to Avon in 'Sarcophagus'. We see this quite a bit differently. I appreciate your explaining your perspective, which allow me to form an overall pattern. My third season Avon goes through a sort of developmental period. 1. Uncertainty. Blake's not back, but will he be back? It's not worth the effort of taking over only to have him return and usurp me. I should save my energy for dealing with him on his return. So he pitters around. Tarrant sees a gap and tries to fill it. It's Tarrant who leads the expedition to Obsidian and I'd guess the idea for trying to set up a base there is also Tarrant's idea (I'd presume with Cally's blessing). Tarrant who takes responsibility for replacing the crystals. 2. What have I got myself into. Blake's not coming back, but taking over means being responsible for this lot. I could get them killed. That wouldn't be a very good feeling. I wish I could just be alone with my toys. But as much as he wants to avoid responsibility, he's right there helping out when he's needed. I think this is most clearly expressed in Kairos. He's got his sopron and he's trying to concentrate on it very hard, to the extent of not being aware the others exist. Except he has to rescue them from the guards in the shuttle. Then he has to step in before Servalan starts shooting them to force them to turn over control of Zen. He really resents being forced into a position of responsibility. So when they get down on the planet, he heads off on his own. Not that even that attempt at hermit status works. :) 3. It's a dirty job but I seem to be stuck in responsible mode anyway, and I'm more comfortable doing it myself than taking orders. Around "Rumors" Avon decides he's the leader. And he finds that he has a crew who are willing to listen to him and follow him with more loyalty than he expected. And from there he gradually evolves into the fourth season leader who has even gotten to where he has a decent working relationship with his second-in-command. Re: Tarrant's speech in Sarcophagus. The implication in the ep is that the alien somehow provoked the squabble as a distraction for Cally to activate the egg. I think Tarrant did believe what he said, but his good manners would normally have kept his mouth shut. I agree that he was disappointed in Avon at that point and saw him as a less of a leader then he would have liked. But I think that was more a reflection of the differences in their personalities (straightforward Tarrant hadn't yet realized that Avon was seldom straightforward; he had to forget what Avon was saying and watch what Avon was doing) than irreparable philosophical differences. > > But Tarrant isn't a guaranteed yes-man for Avon, which I > > appreciate. Nor does Avon appear to take Tarrant's support for granted. > > But these are also true of Blake-Avon. The difference, for me, is degree of conflict and type of conflict. When Tarrant disagreed with Avon, he usually had another course of action to propose as an alternative. Much of the time (not always--I appreciated Avon's plan to take over Star One) Avon's grumbling was on the order of "we shouldn't do this" without proposing an alternative. Though I wonder if Avon's lack of proposing alternate plans might be because he knew it was futile? Blake wasn't going to listen. Now that I'm rewatching first-second seasons, I do plan to refresh my memories of Blake-Avon and see what I find. > And I thought I'd made that clear on several occasions. Yes, yes, yes, yes, > yes. > If you want the reasons, you'll have to say so; I've been too verbose today, > and > it would be rather long. No, I don't need the reasons. Sorry, no doubt I overlooked the hero-worship because it's one of the things that make me cringe (and I usually stop reading to spare myself pain ). I don't see either Avon or Tarrant as the type to hero-worship. They both seem to have a healthy awareness of the flawed aspects of their respective leaders. And they both appear capable of forming their own assessments of individual situations. My definition of "hero- worshipper" is someone who blindly follows a leader and who doesn't try to think for himself/herself. > Avon did not want to admire Blake, but found that eventually not only did > he > admire Blake, but trusted Blake and wanted Blake's approval, a pattern I see > being > repeated with Avon-Tarrant. Again, I hope not. I can see where one might interpret it this way, taking canon in a different direction that I do, but it's not a way that appeals to me. I like strong individuals, as in people who aren't in need of others' approval to justify their existence. The Avon and Tarrant I see (and admire) on the screen are self-motivated in their behavioral patterns. Avon is rescuing his teammates not to gain Blake's approval, but because he has to do it for himself. When you come right down to it, *my* Avon doesn't care if anyone likes him, as long as he likes himself. And ditto for Tarrant. > Claudia's hit it -- Jealousy. Not necessarily actually wanting Avon to kill > Blake > (although that could start a good PGP), but Tarrant thinking (subconsciously) > : > "This is the man that you trust so much? That you gave up everything to find? > He's > betrayed us all, he's not worthy of your trust. I would never betray you; > yet you > treat me like a fool!" Tarrant wanting to protect Avon, and yet also wanting > Avon > to know that Blake is not the friend to him that Tarrant is. Largely shock, > of > course, over Blake being so different than Tarrant had been led to expect. I see why I was completely blind to what you meant; it's so out-of-tune with my view of Tarrant. I do agree that Tarrant was incredibly disappointed in the Blake he found. And disillusioned, adding to the bitterness that had been building inside him throughout the series. But he's seen that Avon has made foolish misjudgments in the past (Anna). And he's accepted that Avon makes mistakes. So none of his outrage is directed at Avon. Tarrant doesn't brood over other people's mistakes; he forges on. At the end of "Terminal" Tarrant doesn't brood over the loss of Liberator and how it came about, he says, "Let's see if we can't find a way off this planet. There's a lot to do." > Ooooh! Now this is a very complex bit of (INTP) psychology. Avon says this > in a > *very* sarcastic way -- practically chortling. IMHO, the correct > interpretation is > the truth masquerading as a lie masquerading as the truth. On the surface, > to most > people, obviously true; Avon using sarcasm to make it a lie; but underneath, > Avon > knows it *is* true -- simply doesn't want anyone to know that he thinks so. Except that we all know he does think it is true. :) I agree with everything you said. Avon is trying to make it seem sarcastic. But like many of Avon's attempts to fool people, it doesn't work. The Soolin I see on screen is intelligent enough that she either immediately sees through Avon's sarcasm, or she keeps that statement in her active file until she's had a chance to decipher it (and then she sees it for what it really is). No time for more posts now, so let me briefly say how much I enjoyed your observation of Avon's automatic use of "he" in "Assassin." Good one! And I also enjoyed your post on writing, as in characters behaving as themselves, and the need for well-developed backgrounds for characters to serve as an anchor for how they are behaving. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:27:12 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Fannishness and cliches Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kathryn, I really enjoyed your post - thanks. I've been half-heartedly mauling a murder-mystery story for *ages* and I feel more enthused about going off and finishing it now. I think part of the problem is that I've been playing with it for so long that it's turned into a cliche for me - before anyone else has had the chance to tell me that it actually is! >So what if Avon shot the clone? Tell it from the clone's point of >view! Avon has a daughter? Tell it from the mother's point of view! >Or from Soolin's point of view! Or *something* different. I really liked this - I always wince at clone stories, as they seem so much of a cop-out. But a Soolin perspective is always so fresh. That's why I liked Judith Proctor's story 'Shane' so much - a different perspective on very common fan themes. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:29:37 -0000 From: "Susan Bennett" To: "Lysator" Subject: [B7L] Re: Assassin Message-ID: <001b01be6c84$5899a620$cd91cbc1@compaq> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When this message came back to me it was blank, so I'm sending it again. Apologies if it's just my ocmputer and the list gets it twice. Joanne said: >>>Ooh. I knew Stardrive had a bad reputation, but Dawn of the Gods as well? Not having seen either, you are making me wary of watching either of them if I ever have the opportunity to. Stop it, Neil! <<< Pay no attention to Neil . Even though they are not my favourite episodes (understatement) there are some nice moments in all of them. Neil said: >>>When scripts, production, design, editing and acting are this dismal, _nothing_ can redeem the episode. There are some good lines in Assassin ('Son of Domo the 8th, presumably') and the main characters occasionally behave in interesting ways, but fleeting moments like that are just spitting in the wind. I don't care if I never see this one again.<<< But would you part with your copy of the tape, that's what we want to know :-) Susan Bennett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:00:16 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Es Message-ID: <36E901CF.6E110341@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una McCormack wrote: > Are all the Vila fans round here extraverts? Absolutely not! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:33:42 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Message-ID: <19990312183342.A1443@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1999 14:19:22 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Kathryn Andersen writes: > Something is broken... The copy of the message that the listbot stuck in the archive (and the digest-queue) looks fine, but by the time it gets sent the body has vanished. Foo. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast? ------------------------------ Date: 12 Mar 1999 14:41:24 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Calle Dybedahl writes: > Something is broken... A runaway statistics-gatherer is the prime suspect at the moment. It has been decisively killed, and we hope things will return to normal. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:10:10 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Seeking frame library requests Message-Id: <4.1.19990312120607.00c5c3f0@dallas.net> Message-Id: <4.1.19990312120607.00c5c3f0@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think I'm going to work on "The Way Back" next, since it's under discussion on Space-City and it seems only fair to get the first episode in there (given that I've already done the last one.) After that, I will do one more B7 episode before moving on to work on another show for awhile. I would like it to be a *fourth* season episode, and I'm taking suggestions on which one to pick. So, if there is a fourth season episode you particularly want to see in the frame library, please send me your vote -- offlist, to me at , so as not to clutter the lists. The voting will last until I get "The Way Back" done, probably a couple of weeks. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:15:13 -0800 From: Tramila To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Es Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990312101513.007f3d50@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Tramila's sig says: > >>Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E. >>Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element > >Are all the Vila fans round here extraverts? Probably not. I'm just a bit more vocal than the others. LOL Tramila --------- Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E. Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element Am I corruptible? Of course I am! and loving it!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:13:41 EST From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Does anyone have the web address of that list someone compiled a few years ago, that listed every common cliche that had cropped up in B7 fanlit, over the past 20 years? I distinctly remember it and remember finding it enjoyable and informative. Leah ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:09:39 +0100 From: Murray Smith To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest. Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For all you fanfic writers, the Evil Overlord list has inspired more lists. For example, what would you do or not do if you were an Evil Henchman, a Normal Innocent Bystander, a True Love, or the Hero? I suggest you go to the web site: www.erols.com/vansickl/scifi.htm to find: A. The Things I Would do if I Am Ever the Hero. Examples: 8. I will design redundancy into all ship systems, so that the loss of one component will not cripple the entire vessel. 11. When I am advised to destroy a magical artifact taken from the Evil Overlord, I will do so. 13. Anyone inquiring after the secret of my strength will be fed a line of plausible baloney as to how this strength can be lost. If the bogus advice is followed, the leak shall be properly investigated. 21. Under no circumstance will I agree _not_ to develop or emploit any particular technology. 26. If my Mentor tells me that I am not yet ready to confront the Evil Overlord, I will quietly accept his judgement and remain to complete my training. 43. I will install seatbelts in my space vessels, and have pressure suits and pressure locks at regular intervals. 52. I do not need to give the Overlord a fair chance. Shooting him in the back works for me. 72. If I am offered two explanations for a phenomenon, one a logical, scientific explanation and the other a load of New Age claptrap, I will accept the scientific explanation. B. The Things I Will do if I Am ever the True Love. Examples: 7. I will obtain skill in armed combat, so that when the Evil Overlord and the Hero are engaged in mortal combat, I can grab some dead henchman's weapons and help tilt the odds in the Hero's favour. 18. If I am offered a bribe, I will accept it, and inform the Hero by a pre-arranged means. The happily-ever-after will be happier if we have a good nest egg to start on. 28. I will obtain a device that the hero can use to locate me when I, despite my best efforts, am kidnapped. C. The Things I Will Do if I Am Ever the Sidekick. Examples: 6. I will not go to town for information if I am routinely beaten to pulp for doing so. 9. If I am tasked to carry a very important message, I will make copies and use FedEx to get them to their destination. 13. Before accepting the role of sidekick, I will learn how the position became redundant. D. The Evil Henchman's Guide. Examples: 2. When the hero or his sidekicks are at your mercy, don't stop to gloat. 3. If you can't resist gloating, don't boast about the reward you expect to receive from your master for bringing them in or killing them off. 7. Unless the Evil Overlord pays extra for indiscriminate slaughter, avoid it. Why should you gave your services away for free? E. The Normal Innocent Bystander's Survival Guide. Examples: 8. When the Bad Guy uses you for a human shield, certain delicate areas of his body are in striking range of your heel. Go for it. 17. If you notice that your fellow reporter can type 1,024 words a minute, you should be able to tell that something's up. 22. If a Superhero takes up residence in your city, a nice spacious estate in the country will helpp you to actualise your potential lifespan. There is also 'The Grand List of Overused Science Fiction Cliches'. As with evil characters, not only their henchmen, but also heros, true loves, sidekicks, and innocent bystanders have been reduced to caricatures. As before, not only will these lists prove invaluable for any story, they're all very funny. Murray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:12:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:11:36 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: << I certainly hope that high ideals and sincere and straightforward behaviour are not limited to one temperament. >> Ah, this is an excellent point. It is certainly true that you can be a good, even an admirable person and be any of the temperaments. Do you think, though, that perhaps it is easier for some temperaments to do this than others? Anyway, Cally seems to me to be far and away the "best" character, and by best I mean the most noble and true character, of any on the Liberator. But perhaps this has nothing to do with her temperament, but more with her conscious decision to put people before causes or money or personal advance or any one of the other things that make it so easy for Blake to use people and Avon to threaten to leave. Mistral continues: << One tiny quibble, here. I've almost always seen Blake listed ENFJ, with which I agree. This gives the exact same NF/NT conflicts between Avon-Blake and Avon-Cally, and I perceive the exact same problems -- Avon and Cally rarely agree on whether or not to get involved in a situation -- think of 'Children of Auron', as one example, or 'Rumors', or his comment to her in 'Weapon': "Auron may be different, Cally, but on Earth it is considered ill-mannered to kill your friends while committing suicide." I see the same conflict of values; I think the difference is that the conflict between Avon-Cally is softened by the male- female dynamic, and Avon's basic gentlemanliness, whereas the conflict with Blake- Avon is exacerbated by their constant alpha-male power struggle and Avon's insecurity.>> Your point, here, is really well-thought out. You've backed it up with excellent examples from the series. This does a lot to explain why the 2 conflicts are so different. I also think the Avon-Cally conflict is "softened" because Cally sees through some of the tough-guy front that Avon puts on. Also, she is a very empathetic person. As Luke Skywalker said to his father Darth Vader, Cally could have said to Avon, "I see the good in you." (This isn't an exact quote here, but I think I am close.) Thanks for your insight, Mistral! Gail :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:34:47 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Message-Id: <4.1.19990312143044.00bea9a0@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote: >Ah, this is an excellent point. It is certainly true that you can be a good, >even an admirable person and be any of the temperaments. Do you think, >though, that perhaps it is easier for some temperaments to do this than >others? No, because there is no single vision of what constitutes a "good, admirable person". The qualities people find admirable vary greatly according to quite a few factors, temperament among them. Those of certain temperaments may well be more likely to conform to your ideas of what is admirable, but others might not agree at all. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:08:02 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] only geeks need apply Message-ID: <36E92DD1.2F82F7C3@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, all. I'd like to solve a problem which is annoying me, and possibly some of you. Does anybody who is using Netscape know why sometimes my posts wordwrap properly and sometimes I get the lines truncated, with the leftover bits on the next line? This happens quite randomly, without any settings being changed. It also happens when I have to reopen a post to make edits before sending it. I've tried changing every relevant setting I can find, and nothing seems to work. I'd be happy to save everybody the eyestrain if someone knows how to fix it :) Hopefully, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:46:01 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: mistral@ptinet.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/11/99 12:10:17 AM Mountain Standard Time, mistral@ptinet.net writes: > My argument was A) It wasn't an exhaustive list because Avon > didn't see Anna. B)She was not excluded because of her death, since Blake > saw the siblings that he knew were dead. C) No conclusions can be drawn, therefore, > about D) Whether or not Jenna's mother and Avon's brother were dead or alive, and > E) Whether or not any of the three had *other* loved ones. Therefore, Avon > having a sister is not excluded by the events in 'Spacefall'. I agree completely. To me, if they're not *specifically* excluded, then anything is possible. (And I'm getting fonder of the idea of Avon's Aunties by the day!! ) Nina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:45:59 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <21ca868e.36e928a7@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/10/99 10:30:19 PM Mountain Standard Time, mistral@ptinet.net writes: > Okay, let's hope I'm not asking a dangerous question here... Will some people > tell me why they hate Stardrive so much? I admit that the Space Rats are > =truly= ridiculous-- but I think all the scenes in Scorpio, especially the > sequence at the beginning, with Avon making one hell of a mistake and Vila > surreptitiously saving the day, are great. And the ending gives us one of > those nasty moral issues that people love to argue about. So what's not to > like? Personally, I don't *hate* it, but the Space Rats are just soooo embarrassing it's almost impossible to watch. I actually like the story -- if the Space Rats had been done in more of a Hells Angels style, and with real vehicles instead of those pathetic ATVs, it might have been a superior episode. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:44:09 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Vila the vamp Message-ID: In message <36E9000A.FB09F012@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes >> > Tee, hee. Now that I understand the definition better, I must in >fact take >back everything I said. Tarrant's and Avon's numbers are right with respect >to each >other. But it was still fun. Begs the question, though, how come Jenna gets the >skill >then, and Vila doesn't? (Unless, of course, you think of Kerril as a weak- >minded woman >who only thought she'd fallen in love with Vila because she'd slept with him >when >expecting to die?) > I didn't see Vila persuading Kerril to have sex with him against her natural inclination. I saw two people naturally attracted to each other and in the early stages of falling in love, and Vila was a perfect gentleman at all times. Having said that, Vila *does* flirt brazenly with most pretty women he comes across. Given his notable lack of success in canon it may be that he's relying on his default skill :) > >> I can argue any >> viewpoint you like, but when it comes to writing for 'my' Avon the >> default setting is a mixture of conflicting motivations and emotions. >> Humans are complicated. Only maniacs have a single reason for doing >> something. > >I look forward to meeting 'your' Avon. Which of your own stories do you like >the best? > That's an easy one. Twice-Numbered Days. It's the only story I've ever reread without wanting to rewrite wholesale chunks of it. The Avon in it is 40 years after GP, wracked with guilt that he's determined not to acknowledge and which he's attempted to sublimate by recreating a version of Cally (his 'daughter') and by devoting himself totally to the destruction of the Federation (in Blake's name). To accomplish this he's done things that would turn stomachs and he knows there are worse things yet to do... >. > >Oh yes, Blake's bard skills -- would that be due to his persuasiveness? Do you >see him >as a great orator? > Bard is not strictly oratory, but the possession of a pleasingly mellifluous voice and a way of speaking/story-telling that hooks a listener. Yes, I think Blake (and Gareth) had that. -- Russ Massey Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 3BZ (01903 217334) http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:48:46 +0100 From: Murray Smith To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest. Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For all you fanfic writers, the Evil Overlord list has inspired more lists. For example, what would you do or not do if you were an Evil Henchman, a Normal Innocent Bystander, a True Love, or the Hero? I suggest you go to the web site: www.erols.com/vansickl/scifi.htm to find: A. The Things I Would do if I Am Ever the Hero. Examples: 8. I will design redundancy into all ship systems, so that the loss of one component will not cripple the entire vessel. 11. When I am advised to destroy a magical artifact taken from the Evil Overlord, I will do so. 13. Anyone inquiring after the secret of my strength will be fed a line of plausible baloney as to how this strength can be lost. If the bogus advice is followed, the leak shall be properly investigated. 21. Under no circumstance will I agree _not_ to develop or emploit any particular technology. 26. If my Mentor tells me that I am not yet ready to confront the Evil Overlord, I will quietly accept his judgement and remain to complete my training. 43. I will install seatbelts in my space vessels, and have pressure suits and pressure locks at regular intervals. 52. I do not need to give the Overlord a fair chance. Shooting him in the back works for me. 72. If I am offered two explanations for a phenomenon, one a logical, scientific explanation and the other a load of New Age claptrap, I will accept the scientific explanation. B. The Things I Will do if I Am ever the True Love. Examples: 7. I will obtain skill in armed combat, so that when the Evil Overlord and the Hero are engaged in mortal combat, I can grab some dead henchman's weapons and help tilt the odds in the Hero's favour. 18. If I am offered a bribe, I will accept it, and inform the Hero by a pre-arranged means. The happily-ever-after will be happier if we have a good nest egg to start on. 28. I will obtain a device that the hero can use to locate me when I, despite my best efforts, am kidnapped. C. The Things I Will Do if I Am Ever the Sidekick. Examples: 6. I will not go to town for information if I am routinely beaten to pulp for doing so. 9. If I am tasked to carry a very important message, I will make copies and use FedEx to get them to their destination. 13. Before accepting the role of sidekick, I will learn how the position became redundant. D. The Evil Henchman's Guide. Examples: 2. When the hero or his sidekicks are at your mercy, don't stop to gloat. 3. If you can't resist gloating, don't boast about the reward you expect to receive from your master for bringing them in or killing them off. 7. Unless the Evil Overlord pays extra for indiscriminate slaughter, avoid it. Why should you gave your services away for free? E. The Normal Innocent Bystander's Survival Guide. Examples: 8. When the Bad Guy uses you for a human shield, certain delicate areas of his body are in striking range of your heel. Go for it. 17. If you notice that your fellow reporter can type 1,024 words a minute, you should be able to tell that something's up. 22. If a Superhero takes up residence in your city, a nice spacious estate in the country will helpp you to actualise your potential lifespan. There is also 'The Grand List of Overused Science Fiction Cliches'. As with evil characters, not only their henchmen, but also heros, true loves, sidekicks, and innocent bystanders have been reduced to caricatures. As before, not only will these lists prove invaluable for any story, they're all very funny. Murray ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:54:35 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Message-Id: <4.1.19990312115139.00bd1650@dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:45:45 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches Message-ID: <19990313084545.A972@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 08:13:41AM -0500, Bizarro7@aol.com wrote: > Does anyone have the web address of that list someone compiled a few years > ago, that listed every common cliche that had cropped up in B7 fanlit, over > the past 20 years? I distinctly remember it and remember finding it enjoyable > and informative. I *think* it's on Sue Clerc's site. http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:05:18 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Blake-Avon-Tarrant (was Re: [B7L] Assassin) Message-ID: <36E9C7DD.116E6168@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ah, me. This is a response to Carol's post on the subject. :( :) Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or moan, Carol, I know that what I've said makes you see our views as sooooo far apart, but having read your post I really think that the big differences are mostly semantics. I agreed with *almost* everything you said; sometimes you presented something I thought I'd said as if we were saying the opposite thing. I can only blame myself :) Regarding what I posited of Tarrant's thoughts on GP, I was thinking out loud, really just playing around; I'm certainly not married to the idea, nor to the idea of Tarrant hero-worshipping Avon. Furthermore, you and I are defining both 'wanting approval' and 'hero-worshipping' *extremely* differently, I think. With the exception of your first point, I think our differences over the third season are *fairly* minor. And re what you said about 'Sarcophagus', I believe I agree with you exactly; as a matter of fact, I think that's what I meant to have said; an awful lot of the time it seems to me as if we're talking tangentially. If possible, try to forget what I said about Gauda Prime; I don't even know what you think about that one yet, and I may find it so eminently logical that I can stop puzzling over it. Actually the only really *big* difference that I see us having is one key element in Avon's personality, and it's the one that affects Blake-Avon, of course. The upside is, that I was going to concentrate on my impressions of Blake for a while, but now you've got me thinking about the Toothy One. Let's Make a Deal: I shall give my fullest consideration to your version of Tarrant; and you will spare just a teeeeeeeeeeeeny bit of yours for my Blake-Avon. I shan't ask for an equal share because I know you're so much more experienced than I am... Whatsay? You're watching the first two series anyway..... We'll do it in little bits.... The first thing I'd like to do is find a better term than hero-worship. Help me out now. The definition of the term I'm looking for has, in fact, *nothing* of blindness about it. What I am looking for encompasses the following stages: 1) Looking full at the person and seeing all their strengths and weaknesses. 2) Admiring or being drawn to that person despite their weaknesses. 3) Making a decision that this person is worthy of your trust and your loyalty; worthy, in fact, to be followed. 4) Finally making a decision that that loyalty is absolute. Now, what word would you use for that? Possibly the word for Lancelot's feelings towards Arthur? Not a good choice, perhaps, but the best example I can think of at the moment. Some people have called it love, but I think that's too open to interpretation, has too many definitions. And I don't think loyalty is quite enough. You have loyalty to your comrades but you don't follow them. My personal choice for this word has always been devotion; but that particular word gets *such* 'bad press' these days -- hero-worship actually seemed as if it would go down easier. But I don't think what I've outlined here is blind at all. Nor, in fact, do I see it as a weakness; on the contrary, I see the ability to make that decision and commitment -- and keep it -- a sign of strength. I'm thinking of knights, of samurai, of holy men --- I believe, in fact, that being a good follower requires more from a person than being a good leader. Call me crazy. And I see Avon going through all 4 stages re Blake by 'Terminal'; and possibly Tarrant getting to stage 3 re Avon by 'Blake'. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me much different from what you said about Avon-Tarrant. Now, can we walk down this road together, or will you offer me an alternative? Hopefully awaiting your reply (and all sundry comments) Mistral -- "We just have to ask the right questions, that's all."--Tarrant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:19:35 EST From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Message-ID: <2fcad6c0.36e9d947@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I wrote (without carefully thinking it through): << It is certainly true that you can be a good, even an admirable person and be any of the temperaments. Do you think, though, that perhaps it is easier for some temperaments to do this than others?>> and Lisa replied: << No, because there is no single vision of what constitutes a "good, admirable person". The qualities people find admirable vary greatly according to quite a few factors, temperament among them. >> Gee whiz, every time I post something on the list lately, I'm forced to eat my words. Maybe I should think twice before I hit that "send now" button. My original thought was that perhaps some people types, such as those who talk first and think later (gosh, that's me, lately) would have a harder time being the "admirable person." What a bunch of bilge. Lisa is right; there is no one admirable person. My apologies! Gail Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:35:30 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: VulcanXYZ@aol.com CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you Message-ID: <36E9DD02.CBD8584F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gail! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote: > I wrote (without carefully thinking it through): Your question. > My apologies! > Nooooooooooooooooooooo0oo!!!! The only stupid question is the one that you never ask because you're afraid of looking stupid. IMnotsoHO!!!! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila "No, you won't, fool!"-- Mistral's evil twin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:42:51 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: Calle Dybedahl CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings] Message-ID: <36E9DEBA.D3C29E46@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Calle Dybedahl wrote: > A runaway statistics-gatherer is the prime suspect at the moment. It > has been decisively killed, and we hope things will return to normal. Kill it again. It ain't dead yet. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:23:07 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?] Message-ID: <36E9E82B.E575B08B@ptinet.net> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4478F187470D699D6E9BF201" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4478F187470D699D6E9BF201 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From Avona (if this works, cause I've never done it before). Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila --------------4478F187470D699D6E9BF201 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from repop1.jps.net (repop1.jps.net [209.63.224.238]) by mail.ptinet.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05421 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:01:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from 209.63.253.187 (209-63-253-187.smf.jps.net [209.63.253.187]) by repop1.jps.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA04779 for ; Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:00:59 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36E9EB94.2DDB@jps.net> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:37:40 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: mistral@ptinet.net Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? References: <36E8E3CD.817207EA@ptinet.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television > > production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an > > early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy > > with such a cheap overturning of such a story? > > Ick. I'm happiest with the stun-gun theory, which at least has canonical precedent. > Okay, how horrible is this, then-- I hate 'it was just a dream' stories in general _but_ I was working on a '5th season' Blake's 7 for a while, which relied on this-- when Avon was captured during _Warlord_, he was drugged again, as he was in _Terminal_. The end of Warlord and all of Blake was a hallucination Servalan guided him through. She wanted to break his spirit utterly... The thing is, that part of her plan succeeds. By the time the other rebels rescue him, Avon is in complete withdrawal. He responds to nothing-- he's completely in mental and emotional shock. ... this leads the others to track down a doctor who is crucial to the plot, reveals a lot about Vila's background, actually makes Soolin laugh, and ends up being the first friendly scientist not only to survive meeting Blake's/Avon's rebels, but joins the crew. Plus, when Avon finally snaps out of it, he actually hugs Vila-- and a minute later they are both trying to pretend that he DIDN'T display any emotion... but there's a change as well. Avon can never convince himself that he doesn't care again. --------------4478F187470D699D6E9BF201-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:17:16 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <19990313051719.16531.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Nina said: )> Tell me about it - a couple of nights ago night I *dreamed* up an story - which I can't recall, but it involved at least three aged and really scary aunts, (I do recall one that was a cross between Queen Mary and a demented fruit-bat) with a scheme involving 'recovering' an antique silver something-or-other from the President, and the raid on Central Control being complicated by a nasty dose of the Con-bug being discussed on the Other List going through the crew (Avon had laryngitis, which was nice). I *really* don't want to know what this all says about my subconscious... Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:52:20 PST From: "Mikela A." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?] Message-ID: <19990313055220.19248.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain For some reason, I can't get the quote to load here, but this is in response to mistral's story where "Blake" was all a hallucination created by Servalan in an attempt to break him. Most of my best stories seem to come from dreams and (you guessed it) I had a dream about this one. In it, Avon realized on his own that everything that was happening was fake and came out of it with Servalan standing there. She took it calmly and told him that he might have caught on this time around, but it's only a matter of time before she breaks him. Avon scoffs at the idea, "You've tried to beat me and break me before, Servalan. It's never worked and it never will. In the end, I always win." "You and I have never fought before, Citizen Kerr Avon. The past four years you think you remember are from the machines. Your memories will be recreated as often as necessary to correct your behavior problems." She turns to his guards, "Begin again." The great part in the dream was the utterly stunned look on Avon's face. He believed her. The one thing he'd pinned his pride on had never happened. Far from being the Federation's #1 criminal, he was only another minor cog in the reconditioning machinery and, as the guards took him away, he realized this scenario would be played over and over again till they broke him. Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:32:54 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?] Message-ID: <36EA0696.F7B62817@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mikela A. wrote: > For some reason, I can't get the quote to load here, but this is in > response to mistral's story where "Blake" was all a hallucination > created by Servalan in an attempt to break him. Sorry, no, I cannot take credit for Avona's work, I was only forwarding it.Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:43:01 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <19990313074301.20456.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain A couple of things Carol said, in reply to Mistral: Actually, that’s always been a point where I’m both annoyed with Tarrant, and sort of agree with him (which annoys me more). Tarrant seems to me to be trying to make Avon be the sort of strong leader he’s comfortable with, and either can’t/won’t (I’m inclined to the latter) see that with Avon it’s going to be more difficult than that. Yes, it *might* be better for them all if Avon was that sort of leader, but he isn’t and doesn’t see for one minute why he should have to do anything Tarrant’s way. (Only Blake ever really knew how to make Avon do things he didn’t want to do.) So Tarrant is pushing (and lets face his, his interpersonal skills aren’t any better at this stage than Avon’s, so he is fairly obnoxious about it). Yes, it did rather take him a while to suss that one out, didn’t it? I disagree here. Avon’s arguments were usually less "we shouldn’t do this" as "Blake, I agree we’ll do it, but would you mind being a LITTLE more careful with my life, thank you????" He actually doesn’t dispute Blake’s plans as such all that often - in Shadow (where he seems to be less opposing the plan as of two minds about it, and deeply, justifiably sceptical of its outcome), Weapon (where they end up not going ahead with the planned raid after all), Horizon (where his alternative was ‘let’s get out of their way’ - not a bad idea, actually) and Hostage (where he did too have an alternative, and spent half the episode trying to extricate Blake from the result). And to be fair, he did have an alternative the whole time - ditch the revolution and let’s get rich. Problem was, when he COULD do that, as in Horizon, he had to give it away for pesky last-minute heroics. Are we so sure he does? But yes, Avon doesn’t care WHO approves of him or not. He likes Blake (well, more than nearly everyone else, but that isn’t saying much, is it?) but even if he’s rescuing *him* he usually likes to have a good excuse (‘I’m as surprised as you are’/the infamous pursuit ships in Horizon/etc). I do think he does like having Blake’s friendship (the end of Trial - that hands-out gesture, so oddly unlike him - is one rather nice indicator of this) but without the strings of earning it (the fact that, in my opinion, he has earned it, doesn’t mean he WANTS to). Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:01:25 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Fri 12 Mar, Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001 wrote: > Why do the Space City badges exclude four crew members? Is there another badge > featuring them, in honour of that rarest of slash fiction, Gan/Zen/Orac/Slave? Because there wasn't any demand for them. No point in producing badges that I can't sell. (I've got a few in stock of the existing designs. Prices can be found somewhere on the web page, probably under fan clubs/space city at a guess. They're only for sale to Space City members as they help us recognise one another at conventions) > Why do the two Obsidianites running up to meet the Federation troopers in > "Volcano" appear and disappear as they move towards them? No comment is made of > this in the story, does it really occur? I've never been able to figure that one out and it really bugs me. > > Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television > production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an > early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy > with such a cheap overturning of such a story? I regard all episodes as canon, but I do not regard the radio plays as such due to the first one disagreeing too much with the broadcast series. eg. Slave addresses everyone as 'master' instead of just Avon. > > Does anyone else feel Terry Nation was drawing from some form of stereotyping > in his scripts? NOT that there is anything wrong with that, if done in style. > Or that character development was a sucession of cliches? As an example, the > development of the Daleks featured a couple of major turnarounds, from > misunderstood victims to merciless aggressors, from an allegory about the cold > war to one of the second world war. Can anyone see such trends in Blakes 7? Actually, I htink some of the character development rather successfully avoided cliches. They started as characters who could easily have been cliches and a combination of good acting and Chris Boucher's work as script editor largely prevented this. Gan had the most difficulty avoiding the stereotype. > > My question about the running order of season three included an assumption > that Avon was the instigator in "Terminal", he was aware of the transmissions > and chose to respond rather than responding immediately upon hearing them. > This also presumes some kind of watershed event, such as "Warlord" was for > season four, and so "Rumours of Death" seemed the obvious choice. Were either > of these assumption fair, and why? I think in season 3, Avon responded as soon as he heard the signals. The fact that they led him to a trap is undoubtedly one reason why he was so hesitant to follow up leads on Blake in the 4th season. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:32:20 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Cult TV guests Message-ID: <36EA3EB3.14EF47D8@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those interested, the guests so far announced for Cult TV in Weston super Mare in September are: Peter Davison Simon MacCorkindale, Michael Sheard, Frazer Hines They are hoping for more guests (even possibly a B7 one), though I think Michael Sheard did appear in a B7 episode. -- cheers Steve Rogerson "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:51:33 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator , Space City Subject: [B7L] Redemption competitions Message-ID: <36EA4333.CA1ACD52@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some late compo results from the wall games at Redemption, coutesy of Steve Kilbane DOOR DECORATIONS. The judges contemplated long and hard over this one, but in the end decided to award the prize to Caroline Freeman (114), for her novel approach of actually entering a decorated door. For those who didn't see it, it was a nice spaceships'n'stars mobile. B5 CAPTION (to the drawing of Vir being zapped by Shadows): "The other spiders scurried away, embarrassed by Boris's incontinence." -- Paula Robinson (8). Wins the Best First Name for a Shadow Vessel. B7 CAPTION (from Star One, Vila holding mines, talking to Avon): "And so, on behalf of the rest of the crew, we thought we'd get you something to say thank-you." -- Dragon (123). Wins Best Outtake From a Chris Boucher Script LIMERICK Blake took his ship to Star One And rushed all around with his gun Avon was there But just didn't care And Travis annoyed everyone. -- Sue (65). Wins Best Gratuitous Tarrant Insult. HAIKUS A Vorlon haiku Could it be that such exists> The answer - perhap. -- SJ (125). Best Self-Referential Irony. Tommy never knew Why spiders look like shadows Until one ate him -- Laurie (126). Best Haiku That Should Have Been a 7x5 Story. A fourteenth level Psi, I don't start at shadows Now, except my own. -- Shadow (137). Best B5 Theme. Blake: "where is justice? Will the blood of troopers lay The Ghosts of the past?" -- Shadow (137). Best B7 Theme. Writers block my arse One blank page, so raise a glass Poems grow in bars -- Matt Ryde (135). Most Appreciated By The Judges Who Were Up 'Til 2AM On Thursday Writing Examples. 7x5 STORY The glass cage slid upwards. "We haven't much time," Soolin breathed, astonished. "The troopers will be back soon. Who are you, really?" The figure stepped from the pedestal, her lips unmoving. "My name is Cally." -- Shadow (137). Best Back From The Dead Character NEVER-ENDING STORY ...goes to Caroline Freeman (114), for heroically trying to drag the B7 story back to anything even remotely resembling B7. There was also "Help, those sf weirdos have taken over the hotel", but no badge number, so no prize, alas. :-) BEST ABUSE OF THE RULES ...goes to David Brain (133), for the following limerick: Terry Nation was in a right flap Dalek royalties showed a large gap "I'll write a new show: Blake's Seven ...with dodgy special effects... ...and ludicrous storylines... ...and a ship made out of plastic bottles... ...and filming in gravel pits... ...and huge holes in the plot... ...and a box of flashing lights... ...and birds in tight leather outfits... ...and visible wires on spaceships... ...and cardboard scenery... The beeb will be in heaven - SF fans will watch any old crap." BOOK QUIZ There were 41 questions, which gives 82 possible points. There were a grand total of two entries, with some interesting approaches: - Mistaking Vonda McIntyre's fantasy "Dreamsnake" for John Carpenter's "Escape from New York". - Entering Larry Niven's "Ringworld" twice on the same sheet, for different opening lines. [ and an editoral comment: It is an absolute *bastard* to find a copy of Ringworld to get this opening line from. ] - Having Piers Anthony *anywhere*, for *any* answer. Almost took points off for that. :-) and writing "Oh, go on," beside it didn't help, Tom. - writing, "and Asimov's 'The stars like dust' for everything else", thus giving a default answer for more than half the questions, and therefore getting one extra point for the Asimov title. Tom and Louise got 18 points, while David Brain got 24 points. So, yes, I think it would have been nice to read them out in time. It would also have been nice for me to have realised that I somehow had to get the drazi points to the winners *before* the ceremony (this finally dawned on me during breakfast on Sunday). In retrospect, I'd have done things differently, but it was still fun. steve and finally, in keeping with its style... LATEST ENTRY ...which arrived at 10.40am, while the judges were arranging the running order for announcement of prizes which had already been awarded: >From Ashford I fled on the train With a bottle of Sainsbury's champagne Redemption was great But I mustn't be late For that wonderful Vila in Spain. -- Chris Blenkarn -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #97 *************************************