From: Raven Newsgroups: alt.pagan Subject: Re: Men and Paganism Date: 05 DEC 94 11:20:08 EST rbowman@reed.edu (rbowman) writes: |Although ten years ago I knew of few Pagan men, today I know dozens. [...] We probably need to stress the _pro-feminist_ qualifier there, because so many people have heard of the "men's movement" ritualists that try to escape contact with any & all women, and go off into the woods to become "mighty hunters" around the campfire, wear warpaint and furs, and grunt. On PODSNet earlier this year, a user with the handle MacFinn was making the same great emphasis on hunting, to the point that he claimed that "Herne the Hunter" was the "true state" of the God. I had to respond! ^ THE ROLE OF THE GOD (c) 1994 C. M. Joserlin The men were gathered 'round the fire, to speak of what should be. Up stood and quoth the great MacFinn, a mighty warrior he: | the whole point is to get away from feminine influence and reassert | the God aspect of life. Hunter, warrior and Lord of the forest. | Herne is his true state. They nodded, but reluctant, for life womanless is hard; Then came these words from Raven, the free-roving Gypsy bard: "What, run away from women, you call THAT a warriors' creed? To FLEE the field of battle of the sexes is our need? I think NOT, my feisty fighter; I'm afraid I fail your test, For joining in that battle is the game I love the best. The hunt is on, the game's afoot, a lovely lass is she; And ere the night is done, the battle will a victor see. ONE victor, did I say? Oh, no! At least there will be TWO: For both are won, and both will win, when man and woman woo. If, as the saying has it, bare (if brotherless) is back, So Lordship's cold and empty, if a Lord doth Lady lack. So -- 'Hunter, warrior, Lord' -- agreed, these attributes are good; But add one other -- 'Lover' -- if the God be understood. For I feel my strongest Manhood, and am closest to the God, When, at my lady's touch, my own cold emptiness is thawed; And then my trusting heart with Godlike energy is filled, For Perfect Love and Trust are what the God and Goddess willed. But... 'Herne's his TRUE STATE' -- is that really what I heard you say? My brother, are you trying now to preach of 'One True Way'? Oh come now, jesting's over, sober up and let's be real. Is there no other aspect of the God that you can feel? The Lover of the Lady -- sometimes Pluto, sometimes Pan; The Son beloved of the Mother (true of every man); The wounded and the dying God, the sacrificial King; The risen and returning God, reborn with every Spring; Are not these other aspects just as real, and just as 'True', As Herne the Hunter? Don't they call as loud and strong to you? My brother, sit and think awhile, and see what thoughts are born. Good night, my lady's waiting -- so I'll see you in the morn!" He walked from firelight, into shadow, singing out a song; They heard him in the distance, later, laughing loud and long. -- Raven (JSingle@Music.Lib.MATC.Edu). [All standard disclaimers apply] === From: holzman@MCS.COM (Daniel B. Holzman) Newsgroups: alt.pagan Subject: Re: Men and Paganism Date: 5 Dec 1994 15:42:12 -0600 [quoting the above article] And you would not know what you were talking about. Those who are going off into the woods by themselves aren't trying to get away from women so much as they are trying to get away from civilization in general and their jobs in particular. Somewhat more minor is a desire to talk about exactly being a man means without having women telling them, or feeling that they can't discuss it because women are around. For those of you who pay attention to history, recall that the first step for feminism was for women to go off by themselves, i.e. without men, and talk about their stuff. It was called consciousness raising. By reducing what those men are doing to "becoming 'mighty hunters'", etc., Raven, you are placing yourself on the same level as those who say that the Craft is just an easy way to get to an orgy. I don't know if you speak from ignorance or malice, but please examine what you are doing here. > "What, run away from women, you call THAT a warriors' creed? > To FLEE the field of battle of the sexes is our need? Even a warrior does not spend every waking moment on the field of battle, Raven. > So -- 'Hunter, warrior, Lord' -- agreed, these attributes are good; > But add one other -- 'Lover' -- if the God be understood. While this is also true, even the most ardent of lovers doesn't spend every moment with his mate. > For I feel my strongest Manhood, and am closest to the God, > When, at my lady's touch, my own cold emptiness is thawed; No offense, but you've just given a recipe for a codependantly disasterous relationship. Men need to be able to be warm and full in their own right, and not only at a lady's touch. We have it within us do to so, if we take the trouble to recall how. -- Daniel B. Holzman -- Love does not subtract, it multiples. -- All acts of love and pleasure are Her rituals. -- An it Harm none, do what you Will. -- They took my name and stole my heritage, but they didn't get my goat. -- The word is all of us. -- Remember the Twelth Commandment and keep it Wholly.