From: Tyagi@cup.portal.com (Tyagi Mordred Nagasiva)
Subject: Re: Women in Spiritual Leadership
Date: Wed,  4 May 94 15:23:43 PDT

This was posted (by Joy Williams? Unclear.):
> There is probably no other Goddess more thoroughly disliked, even
> among followers of the mythos which contains her, than Kali.

This is doubtful.  To many in India and other places She is called
Mother.  Of course, some people do dislike their mothers.

> She is frequently linked with murder, cannibalism, and other
> unpleasantness (not necessarily accurately).

Not only this, but disease and storms.  Lots of gods are linked to the
wrathful aspects of Nature.

> She will dance the Dance of Destruction at the end of the world.

That is one story.  Often also it is mentioned that Shiva helps by
dancing with Her and inspiring their lovemaking instead of Her fury.

> The word "thug" is derived from the name of a group of Her
> followers.

From 'Thuggees', yes.  They were a cult of stranglers in India who
felt it necessary to waylay people who were travelling through and
offer them to Kali.  The British stamped them out with a vengeance.
Talk about the destruction of a culture!

> Yet if my understanding of that portion of the Hindu mythos is
> correct...

[Hey, maybe this is another poster?  Unclear.]

> At the creation, a group of enemies of the gods -- the rakshasha --

Close.  The asuras.  :> They are the beastly energies which threaten
the quaint, orderly aspects of the psyche (call it Id versus
Superego).  You may be remember particular asuras (Raktabiju? :>) or
maybe the very weird Rashasas.  I'm not sure what these are yet, aside
from were-like beings with magical powers.  Cf. the Arabic 'djinni'.

> managed to take control of the world.  They practiced every sort of
> depravity... in fact they were expert at it, so they hardly needed
> to practice... and oppressed (and frequently ate) the newly created
> humans.

Yum yum!  Kali likes to drink blood, you know. ;>

> It was Kali who defeated and put down these evil beings.  

Well, moralists like to portray it this way, yes.  I like to think
that She will also consume me when I perish.  I will slip into Her
mouth like a ripened fruit and then dissolve in a cosmic orgasm, if I
don't dissolve before I die, that is.

> Thus this much-disliked diety, embodiment of chaos and destruction,
> was clearly beneficial and a powerful agent of law and creation.

Your ideas approximate that of a devotee.  Many devotees are quite
taken by this dualistic, polarized type of thought.  She does not
teach me to grasp it so.  Rather my mind is Her sword, and with this I
attempt to cut the umbilical of the human species.

> Something seems out of sync here...

You're getting more than one perspective on the stories and the
goddess.  By some moralists (notably the British invaders!) you'll
find all kinds of things about how 'evil' She is.  Well, to people who
have a loving relationship with Nature, Her more wrathful elements
(disease, destruction, etc., etc.) are merely Her other aspects which
we in the West have been taught to avoid and castigate.  To our
tragedy, for to neglect Her dark side (indeed the dark side of our
Mother) is to neglect our *own* dark side.  Dangerous!

Hmmm, I hope my king sees this.

Shanti Shanti Para Shanti Mega Maha Kalima! :>

Tyagi Nagasiva 
===

From: bmyers@uoguelph.ca (Brendan P Myers)
Subject: Re: Women in Spiritual Leadership
Date: 2 May 1994 13:07:49 GMT

[Quoting poster asking about Kali.]
	Of Kali, in the myths, it is said:
		"When she approaches you, it is terror
		But when she reaches you, it is bliss"

	I think the reason you are confused by the apparent paradox in
her description and her role among the gods is because she performs a
necessary function.  She has her portfolio of duties and she maintains
her status by performing them well.  In Hindu tradition the main gods
Vishnu and Indra are above and beyond moral preoccupations because
they are instead concerned with the nature of the universe itself.
Kali's desctuction aspect always makes ready for the new; it cleanses
and purifies so creation can begin again.  This is why she is
frightening (and why she is, as you say, the most disliked of all the
goddesses) but when her work is done, what a wonder the world is to
behold!
				Cathbad
===

From: Tyagi@cup.portal.com (Tyagi Mordred Nagasiva)
Subject: Re: Women in Spiritual Leadership
Date: Wed,  4 May 94 15:36:44 PDT

AUM KRIM NAMAH KALIYA


Cathbad writes:
> 	Of Kali, in the myths, it is said:
> 		"When she approaches you, it is terror
> 		But when she reaches you, it is bliss"

How true!  Aum!

> I think the reason you are confused by the apparent paradox in her
> description and her role among the gods is because she performs a
> nessisary function.

My impression is that Her role varies with the individual and the
tradition.  With Shaivites or Vaisnavites She may well serve a quite
limited and specific role.  For those who worship the Mother (Durga,
or even Kalima), She is All.

> She has her portfolio of duties and she maintains her status by
> performing them well.

I'd love to hear what you or others have found these to be.

> In Hindu tradition the main gods Vishnu and Indra are above and
> beyond moral preoccupations because they are instead concerned with
> the nature of the universe itself.

Hindu tradition is a contradiction in terms.  Those trads of the Indus
Valley Region are quite complex and varied.  It is very difficult to
say anything that applies across the boards.  Some have suggested,
rather than 'Hinduism', that there be a thread drawn through the trads
of India having something to do with 'Dharma'.

> Kali's desctuction aspect always makes ready for the new; it
> cleanses and purifies so creation can begin again.

Of course.  All destruction is this way.  It is also true that all
creation is the preparation for the Great Destruction.  Neither is
pre-eminent, and while we hold to One, the Other comes much faster.

> This is why she is frightening (and why she is, as you say, the most
> disliked of all the goddesses)

Nah, neither is She frightening for this reason nor is She the most
'disliked' of all the goddesses.  I'll bet there are other gods of
pestilence and disease who are feared more (African?).  Kali is so
frightening because She is of the Crone and shows the wisdom of all
aspects of the divine.  Doing so, we reel in incomprehension as She
blasts us with Her full instructive force.  Shakti manifest!  The
wisdom of the Unknown forced before our eyes!

> but when her work is done, what a wonder the world is to behold!

What a wonderful world right now!

Tyagi Nagasiva