From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Fri Aug 9 06:24:22 1996 Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:04:46 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #95 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 6 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 095 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:58:39 +0100 Subject: P.Mantis and the Worm P.Mantis came across a worm who was softly mumbling, "Why could I not be a cricket," P.Mantis said "What is the matter dear friend!" "Worms just crawl around and crickets sing and are considered very lucky", said the Worm. "But Round Worms are special too, when life cuts them in half, they survive and multiply, and without Worms the soil would be to hard to grow anything!" Wow said Worm, Praise God for all creatures great and small. K.L. ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 15:05:49 -0500 Subject: Signing Off for One Week Dear Brothers and Sisters, I will be away camping for one week. I'm not allowed to take my computer with me, so this grain of sand will be off-line the whole time. Love, Craig ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 18:07:59 PST Subject: Renga Hey Beautiful Ones! (or at least those of you interested in renga! -- everyone else delete NOW! :) >sebelum bintang-bintang >lahir dalam kesedaran kita >Akulah Satu dengan-Mu --maarof Hi, maarof! do we get a translation? please! :) By the way, ... i sent a 'copy' of the Star Renga to Winged Heart /and/ Tariqas. I hope that does not offend anyone. I did not put the 'Cc' on it because we were asked not to 'cross post'... but, since this was already (i believe) a Renga that was simultaneously being created within both these lists ... i posted the most complete version on both lists. I would like to occassionally post an 'updated' version (if it is added to), on both lists... if no one objects to that. I promise not to post it six times a day! :) This idea might not even 'fly'. But, i would like to see if it might ... also... if anyone cares... :)*(: It is my understanding that Haiku usually consists of three lines of 5, 7 and 5 syllables respectively, hence tanzen's reference to beat of the frame drum 5,7,5. It's certainly flexible though! :) I tend to like the loose, easy feeling... you know me! ;) For those wondering what a renga is ... it's basically a 'string' of several Haiku... offered by two or more people... perhaps, but not necessarily, in 'answer' to one another.... usually based on a 'theme' from Nature. More please? :) Everyone is welcome! The more the merrier! c'mon lurkers.... you know you wanna! ;) (now back to our regularly scheduled feuding and fussing, and making-up again.. : ) God, i Love this place! ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 19:47:57 -0400 Subject: New Additions to Threshold Society Web Site Dear Friends, The Threshold Society has recently expanded the offerings on its web site. It can be reached via either of these addresses: http://www.webcom.com/threshld/ http://www.sufism.org/ New additions include: Chapters from Kabir Helminski's work in progress "The Knowing Heart" Essays on sema by Dr. Celalettin Celebi and Kabir Helminski A schedule for the 1997 Whirling Dervish Tour A schedule of seminars and workshops planned for the coming year Threshold's monthly theme for July-August 1996 Substantial excerpts from the works of Rumi, as well as from many other Threshold titles Frequent additions and updates to the site are planned. We hope that you will visit often, and would very much appreciate your comments and suggestions for improving the website's content, appearance and organization. Please write to: In service, Rabia Kathleen Seidel ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:03:56 +0800 Subject: Re: Renga On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) wrote: >>sebelum bintang-bintang >>lahir dalam kesedaran kita >>Akulah Satu dengan-Mu --maarof > >Hi, maarof! >do we get a translation? >please! :) > It is a mirror of your haiku (I hope...) before the stars are born into our consciousness I am One with Thee salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Ebrahim Asvat Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 21:07:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Woman and Ibn Arabi There is a book written by William Chitwick which is a sort of Ibn Arabi for primers. I think is published by the State University of New York. Regards, E. Asvat At 09:39 AM 08/01/1996 -0700, you wrote: >Ruthie Roberts wrote: >> >> If it is possible, could anyone post the list of the '18 punishments' for >> women? I am merely only curious, I for one, never knew that women had 18 >> punishments to endure. I really would like to know what else I can look >> forward too...other than menopause! ;) > >Ok, but it might take me a couple of days. > >By the way, the quote is taken from the book >"Why I am not a Muslim" by IBN WARRAQ. I got this book >with the Idea that I would learn all of the objections to >Islam and then I would learn how to respond to each of >those objections. So, far, I've only scratched the >surface and may never be able to answer all the >objections. At least I'll have some fun trying! > >Lately I've been reading Creative Imagination in the >Sufism of Ibn Arabi. Man!! this is the toughest >book I've ever tried to read. And I thought Carl Jung's >Archetypes of the Collective Unconscious was a tough read. >I can barely understand what is being said but ocassionally, >a seed thought comes from the pages and penetrates my >thick skull. When that happens, it is truley a revelation >and makes any effort seem dimunitive. > >Now if any body knows of a book called "Ibn Arabi for dummies" >or anything simular, I'd sure like to know about it. > >Al lah hu Akbar >-- >Michael Moore home page --> http://home.aol.com/michaeljm8 > > ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 20:17:14 +0100 Subject: Healing I know there is healing in my life and I know the healer. I know the love that changes me day by day. I know if i focus on love, many kinds of healings occur, mental and psychological. I know my identity in God is different than the one that I use to believe and have slowly got rid of. I know that my weaknesses and selfcenterness is just about equal to all human beings, but change does occur and wellness flow, but not through any one simplistic attitude or comparisons. Faith is something that also translates into action, whether it is taking a vitamin, visiting a friend, believing a healthier new idea, following the heart, or just saying thankyou God. Ya Shafee, Ya Kafee. The thing to notice is being compassionate. Not having the attitude that people get what they choose, or need to repent for something. This is a harsh way of looking at the whole person. The important thing to know is not why so much but how to climb up the rope that God extends, and recieve the love, understanding, and greater wisdow that God reveals through each of us. The pat answers can kill, the letter of the law kills but the spirit gives life. A condemning word has less power than a electrifying transforming heart, reaching out to me, with I believe God's best will unfold in your life, if you will believe with me, we will walk up the path together sharing the joys and sorrows, but rising to new wonders in God. Nothing is impossible with God on our side, because our friend is inside, in the spirit of Guidance unfolding what none of my words can describe. It is a great adventure, each day. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Steve Phillips Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 23:30:11 +0000 Subject: Re: what's up doc ? paul reinhertz wrote: > Dear Forum, > Given all of the above, I would like to have this > put to the test - > that we test this power of belief in some way, shape, or form > as a cyber- community. > > Let us select an appropriate situation to alter by the power of > belief and we all concentrate on believing it. As we used to say, > "The proof is in the pudding". > > Could we have suggestions as to > a proper test that we all could focus upon ? > > Love, > Hadi how about we all focus on not having any thoughts or images of elephants in our minds for the next few days? greyhair Then Isaiah said: "Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary mortals, that you weary my God also? ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: O Faith (fwd) Subject: Re: O FAITH Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 14:05:23 -0400 X-Sender: chishtia@mailit.pgh.net X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Amidha Porter and David Fyke To: "Jacquie Weller" , "Winged Heart Mail List" , Cc: "Tariqas Mail List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Dear Kaffea Lalla and respective mailing lists: There is not much I can add to the eloquent defense presented by my spouse, Amidha. I would however, again point all who read this to various doctrines and theories regarding the presence of what we humans label "illness" and "evil" in the world. For example, as Joseph told his brothers in the Hebrew Scriptures when they were confronted with the awareness of his full identity years after they told their father he was dead and they had sold him into slavery into Egypt, "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good, that many through me might be saved." His attitude was one of forgiveness, seeking to feed them in the uncertainty of drought and famine, tempered by the years of abandonment and struggle. He did not take the time to fill in an inventory of their "self-centered and morally weak behaviors." Or to summarize it in terms of Disney's "imagineering" and hype around the recent "Hunchbak of Notre Dame" animated feature, "Who is the man [or woman], and who is the monster?" - --Wahid ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) Subject: Re: O FAITH Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 13:53:26 -0400 X-Sender: chishtia@mailit.pgh.net X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Amidha Porter and David Fyke To: "Jacquie Weller" , "Winged Heart Mail List" Cc: "Tariqas Mail List" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >"Illness is a manifestation of self-centered and morally weak > behaviors. Imagine the public health problems we solve if we > realize this in our country. The vast majority of our problems > are due to gluttony, promiscuity, and other expressions of our > spiritual bankruptcy."--in a private message sent to me Dear Friends, and espeically Kaffea Lalla, I have learned a great deal about self-control and judgment by participating in this forum. I generally try to see the other person's side, even as I occasionally allow myself--consciously and sometimes unconsciously--to react spontaneously to the postings of another. This is one of those times, and I want to make it very clear that I a am quite conscious of what I am about to say, based on the above. First of all, Tanzen, I have had it with you. If you think that pronouncements such as the above are within your power to make, even if you are as perfect and untouched as you have allowed us all to know time after time, I sincerely wish that you would unsubscribe from this forum. Such statements are not only dangerous and painful to those who struggle innnocently, they are, in my opinion, both stupid and uninformed. I don't know why you consistently make it clear that you are fit to judge the universe, but you are sadly mistaken, and on behalf of the Sufi Order, I would like to apologize to ANYONE who may be hurt or angered by this message. For shame. As for you, Kaffea Lalla, I am so sorry that you have been subjected to this kind of bigotry and stupidity. Your reply was just perfect. Thank you for your strength and wisdom, and thank you for carrying the burden of darkness you have carried for all of us, particularly holier-than-thous like Tanzen of Tahoe. You are the embodiment of the fulfillment of the purpose of God. I am an angry person at this moment, and I sincerely hope that my anger is righteous anger. If it is not, I will have to live with that. Amidha ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:19:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Health and Illness (fwd) Subject: Health and Illness Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 14:37:15 -0400 X-Sender: chishtia@mailit.pgh.net X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Amidha Porter and David Fyke To: "Winged Heart" , "Tariqas" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Murshid is much kinder about these things. As many of us know, he has a great deal to say about health and illness, and it is difficult to see how anyone who professes to follow him could make hard and fast statements about any subject. The following is from the Message Volumes, _Healing and the Mind World_, from "Health:" >There are different ways of looking at illness. One person will look at an >illness as a punishment from above; another person looks at it as a >punishment brought about by his own misdeeds; there is another way of >looking at illness, and that is that it comes from the past karmas, that >one has to pay back by illness the karmas, the actions of the past. I have >seen patients go through their illness in the thought that as it is the >debt of the past that one has to pay, it is just as well that it should be >paid back. When we look at it critically, we find that the one who thinks >that it is a punishment that God inflicts upon a person, certainly puts >God in a severe light, making Him a hard Judge instead of a most merciful >and compassionate Father and Mother, both in one. If the earthly mother >and father would not like to inflict pain and suffering upon their child, >it is hard to think that God, whose mercy and compassion are infinitely >greater than those of the earthly parents, could send illness to a person >as a punishment for his actions. It seems more reasonable when a person >says that the illness is brought about by his own actions. But it is not >always true, it is not true in every case. Very often the most innocent >and the best souls, who have nothing but good wishes and kind thoughts, >will be found among sufferers. --Hazrat Pir-O-Murshid Inayat Khan ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 02:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Difficulties inherent in this medium (was Re: O FAITH) Assalamu alaikum. On Sun, 4 Aug 1996, Lilyan Kay wrote: > > asalaam-u-aleikum > > I am the one who wrote the offending quoted passages. I wrote this a long > time ago, probably at least a year ago, in a completely different context > in a private message. And now I see my words snipped apart almost (but > alas not completely) beyond recognition, out of context (perhaps they are > in another context but I am at a loss to comprehend what it is) and > causing grave offense. > > To clarify, the part about illness being a manifestation of spiritual and > moral decline was part of a description of the traditional healing beliefs > and practices of a precolonial Zimbabwean tribe. I can't really remember > why I was writing this, but trust me, it was relevant to that discussion. > It did not mean that I think that all illness is the fault of the > sufferer. The part about public health benefits that would result from > changing behaviors such as overeating and promiscuity is self evident, but > again should not be taken to mean that I believe that all who suffer from > illness have caused it by their behavior. > > While I have no idea what Tanzen was trying to say, I'm sure he meant no > harm by it, and I hope that this explanation is sufficient to defuse any > angry feelings that have resulted from what I wrote back then. > > Lily > Thank you so much for offering this clarification on the current situation. Some of the misunderstanding that may have occured in this thread may be due to some inherent difficulties in this medium of communication. That is also true of the "cookie" story. In both cases, old messages reappeared -- in the case of the O Faith thread, having been stripped of its context. So, we have "quotes" which can be quite misleading, getting requoted and responded to. Furthermore, the sequence with which we get these quotes may well be out of order -- further adding to the confusion (one of the original messages in this thread bounced, and I have just forwarded it to the tariqas list -- AFTER other messages have been sent to tariqas as responses to that message, which was sent out over the winged heart list which some members of our list subscribe to etc. etc. etc.). So, two main points: 1. Insh'Allah, we may learn to recognize the difficulties as well as the positive attributes of the Internet as a medium for communication. This includes understanding when we are actually being attacked and when we are not -- and perhaps being able to take ourselves a bit less seriously in both situations (I'm working on it myself :-) 2. Insh'Allah, we may be to use the Internet as a helpful model (when and if appropriate) for understanding difficulties in other types of human communication. In writing this message, i was struck by the similarity of distortions that sometimes occur by taking passages of scripture out of context and building a whole complex of reasoning to defend one piece of that scripture, which, because of the lack of context, is at least incomplete, and perhaps totally inaccurate. Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 02:45:45 -0700 Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) Steve H Rose wrote: > > Subject: Re: O FAITH > Date: Sun, 4 Aug 96 13:53:26 -0400 > X-Sender: chishtia@mailit.pgh.net > X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 > From: Amidha Porter and David Fyke > To: "Jacquie Weller" , > "Winged Heart Mail List" > Cc: "Tariqas Mail List" > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > >"Illness is a manifestation of self-centered and morally weak > > behaviors. Imagine the public health problems we solve if we > > realize this in our country. The vast majority of our problems > > are due to gluttony, promiscuity, and other expressions of our > > spiritual bankruptcy."--in a private message sent to me > > Dear Friends, and espeically Kaffea Lalla, > > I have learned a great deal about self-control and judgment by > participating in this forum. I generally try to see the other person's > side, even as I occasionally allow myself--consciously and sometimes > unconsciously--to react spontaneously to the postings of another. This > is one of those times, and I want to make it very clear that I a am quite > conscious of what I am about to say, based on the above. > > First of all, Tanzen, I have had it with you. If you think that > pronouncements such as the above are within your power to make, even if > you are as perfect and untouched as you have allowed us all to know time > after time, I sincerely wish that you would unsubscribe from this forum. > Such statements are not only dangerous and painful to those who struggle > innnocently, they are, in my opinion, both stupid and uninformed. I > don't know why you consistently make it clear that you are fit to judge > the universe, but you are sadly mistaken, and on behalf of the Sufi > Order, I would like to apologize to ANYONE who may be hurt or angered by > this message. > > For shame. > > As for you, Kaffea Lalla, I am so sorry that you have been subjected to > this kind of bigotry and stupidity. Your reply was just perfect. Thank > you for your strength and wisdom, and thank you for carrying the burden > of darkness you have carried for all of us, particularly > holier-than-thous like Tanzen of Tahoe. > > You are the embodiment of the fulfillment of the purpose of God. I am an > angry person at this moment, and I sincerely hope that my anger is > righteous anger. If it is not, I will have to live with that. > > Amidha ================================================================= Salaams to one and all I agree in essence with the post directed at Tanzen. But to suggest that he leave the group is also not correct. Rather I think people Tanzen should indeed remain as examples of states of mind and conditions of being that should be avoided. When one reaches the state of being able to discern the spiritual posing taking place in people like Tanzen one can consider oneself having reached the next step in our spiritual development. So, afterall, there's is something to be gained from listening and watching pomposity and self deception in action. So all is not lost let us hear more from you Tanzen of Tahoe. Salaams, Simon Bryquer of X Y and Z ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 15:02:05 +0800 Subject: Jinn Assalamualaikum, Is there any reference on jinn (or djinn) or beings other than man and angel in the Bible? salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 01:07:54 +0100 Subject: another test There should only be one copy of this sent, if two or three get out then my eudora is not working properly or my server is screwing up. Please Habib let me know if this is just one copy or not. ------------------------------ From: Salikun@vnet.net Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:23:44 -0400 Subject: Re: Tanzen Assalaamu alaikum, I've chosen to re-post this message as my contribution to the recent Tanzen-Bashing. The hateful and unforgiving need not continue reading. Praying for open hearts/minds, Muhsin >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In response to my post, Tanzen wrote: >Sounds like the last words of a person and the first words of God... >just my opinion. > >Thanks, Muhsin, for being (and for posting, for if you didn't we would >know). > Tanzen, There is consistently a kindness, a compassion, a balance, in your words. It's as if thru your writing, I can hear your voice, and it is comforting. I hear no hidden agenda, rashness, sarcasim, egoism. Only your soothing voice, seeping with love. Thank You, I thank Allah for the pleasure of hearing your song, Sing on brother. Muhsin ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 20:57:47 +0800 Subject: A Presence Like Rain Thanks tanzen of tahoe for your postings on rumi :) Pls keep those rumi flowing in tariqas.. Thanks James for this treasure! - --maarof A Presence Like Rain - -------------------- There is a kind of spirit that comes like fresh rain, a water that carries away to the Ocean whatever's foul and rotten. There, water itself gets washed, and the next year it comes again. "Where have you been?" "In the sea. But now I'm ready again to accept all your filth. Give it to me. Pull of your clothes and let me take them." This is the magnificent work of those watery souls who wash us. How could they shine, if we were not so impure! We exhaust their clarity with our silt, and then the clouds lift them, and the sun takes them as vapor. In various molecular ways they go back to the Ocean. What is meant by this Water is the Spirit of the Enlightened Ones. Think of these rivers and streams as medicine shops. Let them take you to be healed in that wide Water where even thay are cleaned. Where, look, you can see their cloudy robes raining down. - --from Delicious Laughter Rumi version by Coleman Barks Mathnawi V, 199-223. ------------------------------ From: Erik S Ohlander Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:03:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Re: Jinn wa 'alaykum as-salam- Yes, for instance the nephelim in the Torah. Erik. On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 maarof@pc.jaring.my wrote: > > Assalamualaikum, > > Is there any reference on jinn (or djinn) or beings other > than man and angel in the Bible? > > salam > maarof > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #95 ****************************