From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Fri Aug 9 06:25:37 1996 Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 20:42:51 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #97 tariqas-digest Thursday, 8 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 097 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:44:16 PST Subject: O my Beloved O my Beloved who in Your heart feel all the pain of mine, why, tell me, does my unquiet soul aspire to Your sweet peace? My secret soul, evenly, slowly, pursues its aim... But my impatient heart is troubled, bursts into heavy sobbing... The soul shudders, the bitter tears flow. "Come, my loved one, come..." is the seductive call! The tide attracts the waters, the sea, the source of rivers. So does the heart's poison become pure nectar.... --anonymous ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 02:14:23 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: O FAITH (fwd) Assalamu alaikum, Regarding my post with _the quote_, I now realize that it was a quote completely taken out of context, as Sr. Lily has informed me, which was requoted by someone here from a private email discussion. Its original meaning (when read in context) was completely different... My deepest apologies for my misunderstanding. Wassalam, Fariduddien Rice ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 02:56:23 +1000 (EST) Subject: RUMI: The Intellectual The Intellectual The intellectual is always showing off; the lover is always getting lost. The intellectual runs away, afraid of drowning; the whole business of love is to drown in the sea. Intellectuals plan their repose; lovers are ashamed to rest. The lover is always alone, even surrounded with people; like water and oil, he remains apart. The man who goes to the trouble of giving advice to a lover gets nothing. He's mocked by passion. Love is like musk. It attracts attention. Love is a tree, and lovers are its shade. (From "Love is a Stranger: selected lyric poetry of Jelaluddin Rumi," by Maulana Jalal al-Din Rumi, translated by Kabir Helminski, (Threshold Books, Brattleboro, 1993), p.21.) ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 03:39:24 +0700 Subject: Re: Health and Illness Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Amida wrote: > >Murshid is much kinder about these things. As many of us know, he has a >great deal to say about health and illness, and it is difficult to see >how anyone who professes to follow him could make hard and fast >statements about any subject. > Please allow me to contribute my humble opinion to this topic: God gives illness to someone because of three things: - - He wants to test the person, - - He wants to cleanse the person's sins in the past, and - - He wants to take the person from this world. >From these cause we can see that God send illness because He loves us. In the first cause, if the person pass the test (accept the illness with ikhlas), then (s)he will be raised closer to God. So the illness is a help from God for the person to get him/herself closer to God. In the second cause, if the person has been purified from his/her sins, then the person too will be able to get closer to Him. And in the last cause, if God has long for someone, then He will send Azrael (maybe via illness or other cause) to take the person from this world to meet Him. Then finally we can make a conclusion that there's only one cause of illness: God's Love. >From a Hadits Qudsi: "I send illness only to My beloved servants." Wassalamu'alaykum, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 15:21:21 -0700 Subject: Re: Health and Illness barzakh@idola.net.id wrote: > Please allow me to contribute my humble opinion to this topic: > > God gives illness to someone because of three things: > - He wants to test the person, > - He wants to cleanse the person's sins in the past, and > - He wants to take the person from this world. > > >From these cause we can see that God send illness because He loves us. > In the first cause, if the person pass the test (accept the illness with > ikhlas), then (s)he will be raised closer to God. So the illness is a help > from God for the person to get him/herself closer to God. To me, this is not an answer, it only changes the question to "Why did God create a universe where we need to be tested to be closer to him?" > In the second cause, if the person has been purified from his/her sins, then > the person too will be able to get closer to Him. Why do we think that suffering/illness leads to purification? Clearly there are many documented cases where people suffered greatly and were still monsters during and after the suffering. > And in the last cause, if God has long for someone, then He will send Azrael > (maybe via illness or other cause) to take the person from this world to > meet Him. Surely he has taken many from this world with no suffering. So, suffering is not a prerequisite for being taken, and even if it were, why did God MAKE it a prerequisite? > > Then finally we can make a conclusion that there's only one cause of > illness: God's Love. I don't see how the observations lead to this conclusion. My thought is that suffering is part of the nature of creation. It is not separate from creation. Without suffering, the creation would not be the creation. Suffering is not personal at the level of the creation and therefor there is not injustice or inequity in it. At the personal level, suffering is personal. We are suffering so that Allah can feel the depth of his creation. Our souls are enlarged by this and we will receive a reward in the afterlife and maybe something in this life. IMHO > > >From a Hadits Qudsi: > "I send illness only to My beloved servants." > > Wassalamu'alaykum, > > Michael Roland - -- Michael Moore ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:26:59 +0800 Subject: Butterfly in car-park Underground car-park. A butterfly could not find the unlit Exit. My steps are heavy carrying shadows on walls. Friend, a prayer.. This night is brief. ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:45:05 +0700 Subject: Re: Health and Illness Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, Assalamu'alaykum, Dear Michael and all, At 03:21 PM 8/7/96 -0700, Michael J. Moore wrote: >> ikhlas), then (s)he will be raised closer to God. So the illness is a help >> from God for the person to get him/herself closer to God. > >To me, this is not an answer, it only changes the question to "Why did >God create a universe where we need to be tested to be closer to him?" > Life is a journey back to God. In our journey, to be closer to Him means an advance step. To take the early step to Him, we have to be "ikhlas" (accept all without complaining, and to give all without asking reward). Through illness God (The All-Knowing) can prove wether a person already "ikhlas" or not. If the person accept the illness without complaining to God, then (s)he is "ikhlas". Through illness a person can also practice his/her degree in "ikhlas". If one is already "ikhlas" then he/she can take the next steps in the journey. Without ikhlas the next steps will be difficult. >> In the second cause, if the person has been purified from his/her sins, then >> the person too will be able to get closer to Him. > >Why do we think that suffering/illness leads to purification? Clearly >there are >many documented cases where people suffered greatly and were still >monsters during and after the suffering. > Purification is something we could not see/detect/feel. The person itself can still be a monster after the illness, but God (The Most Forgiving) has forgive some of his/her past sins through the illness even if he/she is still a monster. There's a hadith saying that illness will lessen one's sin. I believe that you believe what The Prophet (pbuh) have said. >> And in the last cause, if God has long for someone, then He will send Azrael >> (maybe via illness or other cause) to take the person from this world to >> meet Him. > >Surely he has taken many from this world with no suffering. So, >suffering >is not a prerequisite for being taken, and even if it were, why did >God MAKE it a prerequisite? > I believe you have misunderstood my words. Some illness can lead someone to death. It's one of God's way to take us. That's what I wanted to say. Illness is not equal with suffering. I didn't say that suffering is a prerequisite for being taken. Please forgive my poor English, because it's my second language. >> >> Then finally we can make a conclusion that there's only one cause of >> illness: God's Love. > >I don't see how the observations lead to this conclusion. >My thought is that suffering is part of the nature of creation. It is >not separate from creation. Without suffering, the creation would >not be the creation. Suffering is not personal at the level of >the creation and therefor there is not injustice or inequity in it. >At the personal level, suffering is personal. We are suffering >so that Allah can feel the depth of his creation. Our souls >are enlarged by this and we will receive a reward in the afterlife >and maybe something in this life. IMHO > You have your own opinion, I have mine. I don't want to debate, you're my brother. I'll stop discussing this topic before it only leads to misunderstanding among us, because I can't say my opinion using the right English words. I'm sorry. Thank you, brother Michael, for your comments. Wassalamu'alaykum, your brother, Michael Roland ============ Surah Al-Ikhlas ============ Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Qul Huwallahu Ahad. Allahu Shamad Lam yalid wa lam yulad. Wa lam yakullahu kufuwan Ahad. ------------------------------ From: "Erik S. Ohlander" Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 20:35:05 Subject: Re: Health and Illness >============ >Surah Al-Ikhlas >============ >Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. >Qul Huwallahu Ahad. >Allahu Shamad >Lam yalid wa lam yulad. >Wa lam yakullahu kufuwan Ahad. Allahus-samad (with a Saad not a shiin). Erik ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:55:23 +0700 Subject: Shamad or Samad Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Dear Erik, At 08:35 PM 8/7/96, you wrote: > >>============ >>Surah Al-Ikhlas >>============ >>Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. >>Qul Huwallahu Ahad. >>Allahu Shamad >>Lam yalid wa lam yulad. >>Wa lam yakullahu kufuwan Ahad. > >Allahus-samad (with a Saad not a shiin). > >Erik > > You have just shown an example of how different language and culture will lead to misunderstanding. Thank you. In my country, Siin (as in Bismillah) is written in Latin with S, without H, while Shad (as in Shalat) is writteh with SH. Sorry, but I prefer to use my own country's rules. Different cultures, different backgrounds, different perceptions. I hope it won't make us squint-eyed. :-) (ever heard Mevlana's story about a squint-eyed student?) Love to all. Wassalamu'alaykum, your brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 10:34:32 +0700 Subject: Shamad (correction) Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Oops, sorry, a little correction to my last posting: In my country, Syin (as in Syaithan) is written in Latin with SY. Sin (as in Bismillah) is written in Latin with S, without H, while Shad (as in Shalat) is writteh with SH. I'm sorry, but I prefer to use my own country's rules. Different cultures, different backgrounds, different perceptions. I hope it won't make us squint-eyed. :-) (ever heard Mevlana's story about a squint-eyed student?) Mevlana = Jalaluddin Rumi Love to all. Wassalamu'alaykum, your brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 11:42:09 +0700 Subject: Morally weak Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Dear Fred, you wrote: >> >>I resent such implication that because my mother had a blood >>transfusion before they could screen for hepatitis C, that she >>is "morally weak." Whoever said this (and I don't know who) >>disgusts me, or else phrased what they wanted to say in an >>atrocious way. >> >> I believe the "morally weak" person in this case is not your mother, but of course the nurse or the doctor or maybe the system itself which can not prevent the blood bank from lethal viruses. Please do not easily get mad to someone or something. I think it's best for us to cool ourselves down whenever we encounter a disturbing statement, and re-read, re-think, and always have a good prejudice. Love me, please. Not with your mouth, but with your heart. Wassalamu'alaykum, Michael ------------------------------ From: Fred Rice Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:53:07 +1000 (EST) Subject: Re: Shamad (correction) Assalamu alaikum, On Thu, 8 Aug 1996 barzakh@idola.net.id wrote: > Oops, sorry, a little correction to my last posting: > > In my country, > Syin (as in Syaithan) is written in Latin with SY. > Sin (as in Bismillah) is written in Latin with S, without H, > while Shad (as in Shalat) is writteh with SH. > I'm sorry, but I prefer to use my own country's rules. > > Different cultures, different backgrounds, different perceptions. > I hope it won't make us squint-eyed. :-) > (ever heard Mevlana's story about a squint-eyed student?) That is true, that is the Indonesian form of transliteration. Here is a translation to "English" transliteration, using Br. Michael Roland's examples: Indonesian "sy" = English "sh" (eg. shaitan) Indonesian "s" = English "s" (i.e. soft "s" sound) (eg. bismillah) Indonesian "sh" = English "S" (i.e. hard "s" sound) (eg. Salat) Wassalam! Fariduddien ------------------------------ From: "M.I.S. DEPT" Date: Wed, 7 AUG 96 22:35:05 Subject: Re: Shamad (correction) Hi Fariduddien As far as I know the Indonesians spell salat as "solat". The letter sad is "so". :)) Wassalam Noordin ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 06:41:44 -0700 Subject: RUMI 1391 HOW LONG can i see myself chained in this prison chained in this world the time has come to take my good life in my hands and gallop to the sublime finally purified i'm no more polluted and from now on i'll take my quests directly to God Himself i was given at my birth all the estates and mansions it will be a heresy to accept only a doorkeeper's job once i alter this doorkeeper's attitude once i change the essence in my mind happiness will replace misery now my dear heart since you and i are all alone having your midnight message i'll do exactly that which you know once i grow wings in place of my slow feet all obstacles will vanish and i really can fly in time and space again ghazal number 1391, translated April 8, 1991, by Nader Khalili tanzen ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:53:07 -0700 Subject: Re: Health and Illness barzakh@idola.net.id wrote: > > Bismillahirrahmanirrahim, > > Assalamu'alaykum, > > Dear Michael and all, > > At 03:21 PM 8/7/96 -0700, Michael J. Moore wrote: > >> ikhlas), then (s)he will be raised closer to God. So the illness is a help > >> from God for the person to get him/herself closer to God. > > > >To me, this is not an answer, it only changes the question to "Why did > >God create a universe where we need to be tested to be closer to him?" > > > > Life is a journey back to God. In our journey, to be closer to Him means an > advance step. > To take the early step to Him, we have to be "ikhlas" (accept all without > complaining, and to give all without asking reward). Through illness God > (The All-Knowing) can prove wether a person already "ikhlas" or not. If the > person accept the illness without complaining to God, then (s)he is > "ikhlas". Through illness a person can also practice his/her degree in > "ikhlas". > If one is already "ikhlas" then he/she can take the next steps in the > journey. Without ikhlas the next steps will be difficult. > > >> In the second cause, if the person has been purified from his/her sins, then > >> the person too will be able to get closer to Him. > > > >Why do we think that suffering/illness leads to purification? Clearly > >there are > >many documented cases where people suffered greatly and were still > >monsters during and after the suffering. > > > > Purification is something we could not see/detect/feel. > The person itself can still be a monster after the illness, but God (The > Most Forgiving) has forgive some of his/her past sins through the illness > even if he/she is still a monster. > There's a hadith saying that illness will lessen one's sin. I believe that > you believe what The Prophet (pbuh) have said. Yes, to the degree that our records are accurate and correctly interpreted and in context. > > >> And in the last cause, if God has long for someone, then He will send Azrael > >> (maybe via illness or other cause) to take the person from this world to > >> meet Him. > > > >Surely he has taken many from this world with no suffering. So, > >suffering > >is not a prerequisite for being taken, and even if it were, why did > >God MAKE it a prerequisite? > > > > I believe you have misunderstood my words. > Some illness can lead someone to death. It's one of God's way to take us. > That's what I wanted to say. > Illness is not equal with suffering. > I didn't say that suffering is a prerequisite for being taken. > Please forgive my poor English, because it's my second language. Do you really believe that your English is poor? On this point I would debate you! ;-) > > >> > >> Then finally we can make a conclusion that there's only one cause of > >> illness: God's Love. > > > >I don't see how the observations lead to this conclusion. > >My thought is that suffering is part of the nature of creation. It is > >not separate from creation. Without suffering, the creation would > >not be the creation. Suffering is not personal at the level of > >the creation and therefor there is not injustice or inequity in it. > >At the personal level, suffering is personal. We are suffering > >so that Allah can feel the depth of his creation. Our souls > >are enlarged by this and we will receive a reward in the afterlife > >and maybe something in this life. IMHO > > > > You have your own opinion, I have mine. I am only regurgitating what I believe is Ibn al-Arabi's idea of the pathetic god and the pathos of creation. > I don't want to debate, you're my brother. Now this is really interesting. There is something hidden here that I am not seeing. Is it bad manners to debate a brother? Why would you not want to debate a brother? I had thought that debate was a way that people learn from each other. You don't need to answer this, I'm just thinking to myself here. > I'll stop discussing this topic before it only leads to misunderstanding I was hoping for understanding, but you may be right. > among us, because I can't say my opinion using the right English words. I'm > sorry. No, I am sorry that I do not know Arabic. I am ashamed to only know one language. Allah's Blessings on you brother. - -- Michael Moore ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 13:03:04 PST Subject: Peace Mother beat, pure Song hey-a-ya, hey oh! whispers, distant dreams Her forgotten Song... - --yondanoota ------------------------------ From: maarof@pc.jaring.my Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 04:17:08 +0800 Subject: Peace Mother beat, pure Song hey-a-ya, hey oh! whispers, distant dreams Her forgotten Song... - --yondanoota the medicine-man yawns, sneeze and sing! hey-a-ya, hey oh! the hornbill dance --rayban turtle ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 05:37:11 +0700 Subject: Debate Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Dear Michael and all, At 08:53 AM 8/8/96 -0700, Michael J. Moore wrote: > >> Please forgive my poor English, because it's my second language. > >Do you really believe that your English is poor? On this point I would >debate you! ;-) > ha..ha..ha..I don't like to debate. But I'm very much aware that my vocabulary is poor. Sometimes I need to open my dictionary to understand what you guys are saying. :-) >> >> You have your own opinion, I have mine. > >I am only regurgitating what I believe is Ibn al-Arabi's idea of the >pathetic god and the pathos of creation. > Now, you see...I have to look in my dictionary to know what this regurgitating is in other words...let's see..ah, here it is, my Webster says: "To pour, gush, rush, or surge back." Good, now I can understand what your sentence means. Yes, Ibn Arabi. The great Sufi master. But I'm afraid my little brain is not ready yet to chew his words. My only Ibn Arabi's book is Misykatul Anwar, the Hadist Qudsi, which I rely more than other Hadist Qudsis. ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 20:32:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sufi Newsgroups Do NOT Exist!? (fwd) - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 14:03:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Bhimani - Janna To: habib@world.std.com Subject: Sufi Newsgroups Do NOT Exist!? Hello! I have visited your Sufi URL today, and was interested in subscribing to two of the newsgroups mentioned there: alt.sufism and alt.islam.sufism. However, neither group seems to exist. Do you have any new information about newsgroups or have these groups perhaps changed names since you posted them on your web page? Please let me know. My particular interest is in qawwali and the interpretation of the religious qawwalis performed by Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Thanks for your consideration. I hope to hear from you soon. Janna Bhimani jbhimani@umd5.umd.edu ------------------------------ From: MFKimball@aol.com Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 20:34:11 -0400 Subject: Re: al_Ghazaali on Women My goodness. I wish I had known how to behave sooner! (Just kidding) Can you give page numbers and translator? Thanks Farah ------------------------------ From: barzakh@idola.net.id Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 07:44:25 +0700 Subject: Debate (2) Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. Assalamu'alaykum, Dear all, At 08:53 AM 8/8/96 -0700, Michael J. Moore wrote: > ..... > >> I don't want to debate, you're my brother. > >Now this is really interesting. There is something hidden here that I >am not seeing. Is it bad manners to debate a brother? Why would you >not want to debate a brother? I had thought that debate was a way that >people learn from each other. You don't need to answer this, I'm >just thinking to myself here. > > Well, it won't hurt me to answer. :-) You see, I live in a society where debating (or arguing on something) is regarded as impolite. I live in the island of Java, Indonesia. Most of the Javanese (especially those in the villages) are very soft people and always put politeness on the top list. I think that debating is also avoided by the Sufi masters. I believe that this behaviour of my people has its root from Sufism. Islam was spread in this island 500 years ago by a group of Sufi masters, and their teachings on Sufism had gradually blended with local custom. Maybe I'm exaggerating, but it's what I believe. One of the Sufi master even transformed the Hindu epic of Mahabaratha and Ramayana as a media to spread Islam, and creatively included Islamic and Sufi teachings in the stories. It's still popular until now, and people still look to the characters in the epic to mirror themselves. Oops, I'm babbling again. Hey, I have this cup of Java coffee here on my desk........ :-) Back to debating: I think debating with oneself (our angels debating our satans) is much more productive (with God's help) than debating with others. In my opinion it's better just to change ideas and experiences with others without trying to attack their views. May God guide us in His Path. Wassalamu'alaykum, your coffee-slurping brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #97 ****************************