From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Fri Aug 16 11:16:45 1996 Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:52:32 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #105 tariqas-digest Friday, 16 August 1996 Volume 01 : Number 105 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor Date: 15 Aug 96 12:49:31 Subject: On a clear night you can see forever I look at the sky and wonder: Even if I could learn to fly at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second) and want to know a Star I would need a life span to last millions of years for a single journey within a single galaxy in the Domain of the Almighty and even if I was granted a life that long to traverse towards my quest my use of this knowledge or technology would be millions of years old at the my own planet from where I started it all How can I comprehend the Limitless with my limited faculties of learning stars that no longer exist and lived for their appointed time millions of years ago before any so called civilization are still visible to me as knowledge of their presence and light took millions of years to reach my backyard Even if I study a single category of plant life out of one subject in Botany all my life I cannot claim mastery of it or know all therein Enough for Me are the signs available at my finger tips My fingerprints that distinguishes me from billions of humans My DNA that is like my parents and their fore-bearers yet distinct If I try to understand the beauty of a Rose and it's fragrance I may destroy it's beauty by dissecting it to get at the secret of it's beauty and results of my endeavour may pose more questiond than answers Enough revelation for me is the faith in the Almighty that is not dependant on organized knowledge nor needs superior wisdom in trying to submit in humility and seek abilities and endowment for simple acts of love As to me, Life's most beautiful things are free the Sunshine a smile a nice thought and Love for all Fi Aman Illah Sayeed ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:15:39 PST Subject: another movie?! :) hello, friends! speaking of movies... :) has anyone here ever seen /Far Away, So Close/? It's a very beautiful movie about angels... i see much relevance (truth?) to it. My son and i just watched it... ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:15:58 PST Subject: Re: carol woodsong 3 Hello, A.N. Durkee, Thank you again for your replies. I am glad that you are posting them here so that others may benefit from them as well. As you might imagine, it will take me awhile to 'digest' the information you are presenting. I hope you won't mind some more questions, as i get to them. Much thanks and love, carol ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:39:14 -0700 Subject: Re: Independence Day barzakh@idola.net.id wrote: > > Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. > > Assalamu'alaykum, > > Dear all, > > Yesterday, I saw this movie "Independence Day" with my Sufi teacher. > After watching the movie, he seemed to be dissapointed with it. He said that > ET(Extra-Terrestrial)s are actually friendly and peaceful creatures who have > greater understanding of God, and had made contact secretly with some humans > for thousands of years. He believe that Harut and Marut mentioned in Surah > Al-Baqarah 102 were ETs who came to the Babylonians long ago and taught a > secret knowledge to humans. > Rumi was one of the inheritors of this knowledge. > > But the movie gave a bad, cruel, and evil character to the ETs. > > Any comments? > > Wassalamu'alaykum, > > Michael Roland What does this mean to you and how can you use it? The teacher, the movie, the comments, the Surah were all for you. Why was 'your' teacher pointing you to Surah Al-Baqarah? Only you can make the connection. It was 'your' instruction/lesson. And now, in a lessor way, it is mine and ours. :-) Cheers, Michael Moore ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 03:42:22 -0700 Subject: Re: Independence Day Assalamualaikum, Is it possible that the imaginations or inspirations that produce these movies (fantasy/sci-fi movies) were inspired by jinns? Some of the aliens IMO are inspired from human's nightmares and dreams. I think there's more to these kind of movies, than what they are potrayed as for pure entertainment sake. My wild guess, is that we are being manipulated by jinns, for us to go astray. - --maarof ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:23:32 -0700 Subject: Al Baqarah 102 - tafsir please Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor wrote: > > This is translation of Al-Baqarah 102 > 102. They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of > Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, > but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon > to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of > these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do > not blaspheme." They learned from them the > means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone > except by Allah.s permission. And they > learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers > of (magic) would have no share in the > happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell > their souls, if they but knew! > > Fi Aman Illah > Sayeed Ok, now I need a translation of the translation. 1)They followed what the evil ones gave out ... - -Who followed? Who are the 'evil ones' 2)against the power of Solomon: - -What is 'the power of Solomon'? 3)the blasphemers were not Solomon but the evil ones - -Why might we have thought that the blasphemers WERE Solomon? 4)teaching men magic, and such things as came down at Babylon to the angels Harut and Marut - -Does this refer to some previous event where magic came down to the angels - -while they were in Babylon? 5)But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." - -Does this mean that they DID teach this magic except they would explain - -that "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme."? - -And why are they saying "We are" instead of "This magic is only for trial"? - -And what does 'for trial' mean. Does it mean that you can try it out - -but you cannot really use it? And how does knowing that it is 'for trial' - -prevent it from being blasphemy? 6)They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. - -Is this correctly translated or should it say. "They learned from them - - the means to sow discord between male and female"? 7)But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah.s permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. 8)And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. - -Can this magic be bought? 9)And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew! - -If they but knew what? Now having looked at this, I have my own idea of what it is about but it is only a guess. I hope somebody can shed some light on this very interesting surah. - -- Michael Moore ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:02:35 -0700 Subject: Re: Al Baqarah 102 - tafsir please Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor wrote: > > > This is translation of Al-Baqarah 102 > > 102. They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of > > Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, > > but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon > > to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of > > these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do > > not blaspheme." They learned from them the > > means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone > > except by Allah.s permission. And they > > learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers > > of (magic) would have no share in the > > happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell > > their souls, if they but knew! [...] > Now having looked at this, I have my own idea of what it is about but it > is only a guess. I hope somebody can shed some light on this very > interesting surah. Ahmed Ali's translation seems relatively clear; some Jews are being addressed for not following God's earlier instructions: 101: When a messenger was sent to them by God affirming the Books they had already received, some of them put (His message) behind their backs as if they had no knowledge of it. 102: And they follow what devilish beings used to chant against the authority of Solomon, though Solommon never disbelieved and only the devils denied, who taught sorcery to men, which, they said, had been revealed to the angels of Babylond, Harut and Marut, who, however, never taught it without saying: "We have been sent to deceive you, so do not renounce (your faith)." They learnt what led to discord between husband and wife. Yet they could not harm any one without the dispensation of God. And they learnt what harmed them and brought no gain. They knew indeed whoever bought this had no place in the world to come, and that surely they had sold themselves for something that was vile. If only they had sense! 103: Had they come to believe instead, and taken heed for themselves, they would surely have earned from God a far better reward. If only they had sense! ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 06:16:59 +0800 Subject: Re: Al Baqarah 102 - tafsir please On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, "Michael J. Moore" wrote: >Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor wrote: > >> >> This is translation of Al-Baqarah 102 >> 102. They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of >> Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, >> but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon >> to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of >> these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do >> not blaspheme." They learned from them the >> means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone >> except by Allah.s permission. And they >> learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers >> of (magic) would have no share in the >> happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell >> their souls, if they but knew! >> >> Fi Aman Illah >> Sayeed > >Ok, now I need a translation of the translation. > >1)They followed what the evil ones gave out ... >-Who followed? Who are the 'evil ones' This ayat (2:102) defends the position Solomon or Sulaiman (as) as messenger of Allah. I'm not familiar with the Bible/Old Testament, but Hamka in his Tafsir Al-Azhar mentioned "Book of Kings Chapter (?) 11 verse 1-11 about the story of Solomon worship idols in his old age. So "who" here I think refers to the Jews (or in modern term "readers". The "evil ones", my guess are the "authors/publishers" of those books. >2)against the power of Solomon: >-What is 'the power of Solomon'? The kingdom of Solomon? A political struggle to topple Solomon in his old days? It still happens today in my part of the world -- politicians using magic :) I know some of you laugh... >3)the blasphemers were not Solomon but the evil ones >-Why might we have thought that the blasphemers WERE Solomon? Refer to explanation above. >4)teaching men magic, and such things as came down at Babylon to the >angels >Harut and Marut >-Does this refer to some previous event where magic came down to the >angels >-while they were in Babylon? According to Hamka in his tafsir, the common qiraat (reading) of the ayat is "malakaini" which means "two angels". There is also qiraat of Ibnu Abbas and Abu Aswad, that is "malikaini" from the root word "malik" (king). Most tafsirs follow the first qiraat.That Harut and Marut are angels that teach men "sihir" (the English translation -- magic, I think does not tell how that magic works). Sihir is a knowledge to influence other people, and can be used for bad purpose.) There are other tafsirs, which said Harut and Maut were pious men, that they are described as "angels" by their contemporaries. Other people came to them to learn, and some inquired about sihir, but first they were told not to use them for bad purpose. So there are various versions about the identity of Harut and Marut, thus I think it can be accepted what our friend Michael Roland said about those two being RT's. Maybe? >5)But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: > "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." >-Does this mean that they DID teach this magic except they would explain >-that "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme."? >-And why are they saying "We are" instead of "This magic is only for >trial"? Explained above >-And what does 'for trial' mean. Does it mean that you can try it out >-but you cannot really use it? And how does knowing that it is 'for >trial' >-prevent it from being blasphemy? In a Hadis, Prophet Muhammad (saw) explained 7 major sins in this world, and one of them is sihir. >6)They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. >-Is this correctly translated or should it say. "They learned from them >- the means to sow discord between male and female"? Maybe... >7)But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah.s permission. And >they > learned what harmed them, not what profited them. > >8)And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the >happiness of the Hereafter. >-Can this magic be bought? Refer to sihir as one of 7 major sins. With what? the soul maybe (see below). >9)And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they >but knew! >-If they but knew what? > They only gain what they want to achieve from sihir in this world, which is a short life time. >Now having looked at this, I have my own idea of what it is about but it >is >only a guess. I hope somebody can shed some light on this very >interesting >surah. >-- >Michael Moore > I hope the explanations will shed more light on to this ayat salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:53:14 +0100 Subject: overwhelmed today Today I feel like the mountain is on me. All the events of these last two months hitting me, my daughter's husband death, my therapist having brain surgery, biospy, swelling in the brain, Another person seriously ill, and flashing back to all the deaths of brother, father, and partner. I need a break from all this and on top of this is fianancial bankrupcy, except I don't even have the money to pay for bankrupcy, and getting threatening letters. How I manage not to be depressed is a miricle only God knows. But I am just tired of all this traumatic events hitting me right and left. Inspite of this all I can do is give it to God, know he loves us, and believe that nothing is more important than giving my self to God. I find the need to meditate a great deal, and turn these thoughts and feelings over. Please pray for me. I hate asking for attention, and putting my problems out, but I just know I can't do this by myself, and hope no one is upset by the personal flavor of this post. Love Kaffea Lalla (sorry for the blues but I will feel better once I get some perspective going again) All is not as bad as this sounds. ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 16:39:52 -0700 Subject: Re: overwhelmed today Jacquie Weller wrote: > > Today I feel like the mountain is on me. All the events of these last two ... > over. Please pray for me. I hate asking for attention, and putting my > problems out, but I just know I can't do this by myself, and hope no one is > upset by the personal flavor of this post. > Love Kaffea Lalla ... Please do not worry about asking. Like my shaykh says "when we are asking, we are recieving". Speaking for myself (and I believe most others here if not all) I am honored by your trust in sharing these problems. Your story is heartbreaking. Would money help? If so, how much do you need? Maybe as a group we can actually DO something. (Many of you are big doers already, I confess that I am not.) My appologies to all if this is 'out-of-line' for this tariqas but sometimes, (and I assume that there are others like me), we need to walk our talk. I feel that this is one of those times. - -- Michael Moore ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:21:42 +0100 Subject: Re: overwhelmed today >Jacquie Weller wrote: >> >> Today I feel like the mountain is on me. All the events of these last two >... > >> over. Please pray for me. I hate asking for attention, and putting my >> problems out, but I just know I can't do this by myself, and hope no one is >> upset by the personal flavor of this post. >> Love Kaffea Lalla ... > >Please do not worry about asking. Like my shaykh says "when we are >asking, we >are recieving". Speaking for myself (and I believe most others here if >not all) >I am honored by your trust in sharing these problems. Your story is >heartbreaking. > >Would money help? If so, how much do you need? Maybe as a group we can >actually DO something. (Many of you are big doers already, I confess >that >I am not.) > >My appologies to all if this is 'out-of-line' for this tariqas but >sometimes, >(and I assume that there are others like me), we need to walk our talk. >I >feel that this is one of those times. > >-- >Michael Moore >------- Dear Michael thankyou, but I will do ok. The consumer credit people tell me just to not bother about bankruptcy because I am on dissiability and no job, or assets anyway. I shall send what I can when I can, thankyou for all your thoughtfullness. Love Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 20:28:22 -0700 Subject: Re: another movie?! :) Carol Woodsong wrote: > > hello, friends! > > speaking of movies... :) > has anyone here ever seen /Far Away, So Close/? It's a very beautiful > movie about angels... i see much relevance (truth?) to it. My son and > i just watched it... > > =========================================================== This is so to speak a follow up on Wenders earlier and IMO far superior 'Wings of Desire'. Which was co-written (although I suspect mostly) by Peter Handke and inspired or rather influenced by Rilke's poems. If you haven't seen it, try to rent it. It's available from a decent video rental. SCB ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:41:23 +0100 Subject: Dear Friends Thankyou for your love and prayers, but being I am on a dissability income from the government, I cannot accept any money, but I much appreciate your love and thoughtfullness. I am warmed by your love and frienships. Love Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:44:37 +0100 Subject: Better I just was having an anxiety attack and am better now. Everything clears up eventually. Don't mean to post so much today, but just wanted you to know that perspective is getting better. Thankyou Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 07:32:45 -0700 Subject: RUMI 1532 COME let's fall in love again let's turn all the dirt in this world to shiny gold come let's be a new spring a love reborn find our aroma from the essence of all who emit heavenly fragrance like a fresh tree bloom and spread all the blessings right from inside ghazal 1532 4/91 , by Nader Khalili tanzen ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 10:30:35 +0100 Subject: FLY TO GOD I stood in a broken field of unfertility I stood in the night of my last full moon, And I was naked inside the heart. I laid in the earth and became her orphan, And I was covered with dying leaves, and There I slept, abandoning self... But it only takes one minute of courage, To break through the crusts of Confining cocoon. And I awoke in the morning, in the milk of The sun, and I flew to the sky on Butterfly wings. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:45:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Independence Day On Thu, 15 Aug 1996 barzakh@idola.net.id wrote: > Bismillahirrahmanirrahim. > > Assalamu'alaykum, > > Dear all, > > Yesterday, I saw this movie "Independence Day" with my Sufi teacher. > After watching the movie, he seemed to be dissapointed with it. He said that > ET(Extra-Terrestrial)s are actually friendly and peaceful creatures who have > greater understanding of God, and had made contact secretly with some humans > for thousands of years. He believe that Harut and Marut mentioned in Surah > Al-Baqarah 102 were ETs who came to the Babylonians long ago and taught a > secret knowledge to humans. > Rumi was one of the inheritors of this knowledge. > > But the movie gave a bad, cruel, and evil character to the ETs. > > Any comments? > > > Wassalamu'alaykum, > > Michael Roland > > Assalamu alaikum. I'm glad someone raised this topic on tariqas. I have been torn over seeing this movie. In ways, I'd like to see it, to see just how the "aliens" are being represented. But, on the other hand, I can probably guess -- and your note supports my guess. This movie seems to be just another instance of exploiting and "dehumanizing" the Other (course, in this case, the aliens aren't goihng to be human anyway, but you get the point). Whether the Other is represented as particularly viscious (older films about "savages" in Africa), or particularly virtuous (newer films that glamorize "noble savages"), the Other is almost always portrayed in a way that results in increased stereotypes and decreased understanding. Once in a while, a movie comes a long that appears to be an honest portrayal of another culture (such as the recent film "The White Balloon" about Iran -- hope I've got the color and spelling of balloon right!). But, typically these films aren't given wide distribution and promotion. In my opinion, the movie industry has one primary activity -- making money in as shortsighted a way as possible. Along the way, it ends up reinforcing a whole range of stereotypes that allow "us" to claim a great victory in a war against Iraq while neglecting to mention that one of the things we did to win this victory was to intentionally bomb the water supply of the city of Bagdad. My personal feeling is that the issue of extraterrestrial intelligence is one of the most important that we as a species may ever face. The evidence that there was life on Mars, if validated, implies that the universe is FULL of life. Insh'Allah, if we survive long enough and are able to understand radio transmissions from other civilations, we may be able to plug into and learn from a wealth of information and experience. On the other hand, maybe we'll be happier just spending $8 to go to a movie and get vicarious thrills from "fighting the bad guys." It certainly is a lot easier than trying to learn from other people -- or, heaven forbid, our own experience! ;-) Yours, Habib ------------------------------ From: Steve H Rose Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Independence Day On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, David Barton wrote: > Movies do not always depict ETs as bad characters. Aside from ET > (which you mention), there is Starman, The Man Who Fell To Earth, The > Day The Earth Stood Still, and many others. One of my favorite movies is The Brother from Another Planet, which was very well done, and speaks intelligently about race relations as well as us humanoids in general. ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #105 *****************************