From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Sun Jul 21 14:55:03 1996 Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 01:14:47 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #75 tariqas-digest Sunday, 21 July 1996 Volume 01 : Number 075 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Moore Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 10:05:45 -0700 Subject: Re: Why - my $0.02 Gary Berlind wrote: > > >Dear friends, > > > >I don't exactly know what is your reaction to the news of flight 800 crash, > >so there is apprehension in posting this. On tv, the most striking thing > >I watch is a priest's statement about some things we will never know the > >answer.In time of tragedy, disaster it seemed there's always tendency to > >blame someone, even God. > > > >My feeling is that a "terribly wrong" or "uexplainable events" that is > >happening all over the world is a "sign" of something is coming. I wonder > >if some members of this list, experience such "feeling" or "uneasiness". > > > >salam > >maarof > > Unexplainable? I think, unfortunately, it's all too explainable. > > While I certainly am greatly saddened by the news of the crash, and the > lives lost, the fact that such violent acts happen around us is to me > anything but unexplainable. > > IMHO, there are so, so many existing injustices in the world today. Tons > of them. The way so many many indigenous peoples (American Indians, > Eskimos, rain-forest dwellers, etc.) have (and are!) being treated by those > folks in the world who are aggressive (or passive) oppressors - including > even some of us, including even me. The way the have-nots in most > societies are treated by the haves. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Big > mess out there today, some of which has been existing for centuries, maybe > milennia, no? > > IMHO it's naive to ignore these realities, which many of us, myself > included, tend to ignore every day. It sees to me that pressure just > naturally builds up when there are these kinds of injustices and inequities > all over. Is an act of violence against the innocent passengers on an > airline worse than the acts of cruelty, oppression and abuse that may have > historically preceded (and not too indirectly led to) that event? IMHO > they both are nasties. Nasty seems to breed nasty, except when exceptional > things occur. I think it's always been that way, at least during most of > recorded history. > > Again, I'm not justifying anything about this awful bombing, or whatever it > was. Just trying to perhaps provide a different perspective. > > Anybody who wants to flame me on this, please do so with love and > consideration - I hurt real easily... > > Gary Abdul Matin Berlind Be sure We shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, who say, when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah we belong, and to Him is our return": (The Holy Quran: 2:155-156) ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 13:19:06 -0400 Subject: why Been thinking about why's myself recently and had this thought about the question why, that there are two stages of the question, from the point of view of my self and from the point of view of the divinity within me. First one wants to know why. This is the beggining of the spiritual journey. You sense that there is a reason behind the reason, a feeling behind the feeling, that there is a motive and a motivation behind one's own actions. This mode of thought brings what is sometimes called, the consciousness of the reflective mind. It is an awareness of one's spirit. Thus, the spiritual journey begins. Another similar question springs up later on. "Why?", one wants to know. There is a sense that behind the feeling which is transpiring thorough one's own action that there is something which is comming through from beyond this awareness of ones own self, something of great meaningfullness. That something is transpiring through life itself. There seems to be a meaningfulness to life, to events including tragedies. This sense has led mystics to say things like "Every blow of life pierces the heart to awaken our feeling to sympathize with others, every swing of comfort lulls us to sleep, and we become unaware of all." This sense also causes the mystic to have and hold high ideals, and yet the mystic is aware that this ideal is just a cover of the "true ideal', the secret of every person seems hidden within his/her conception and aspiration to an ideal. It is the fragrance, hidden by the petals refer to by sufi poets. It is what is meant by the mystics when they refer to looking at the moon. At certain times the mystic looks upward rather than toward the earth, but always at the moon, as most people cannot withstand looking directly at the sun. The answer to why is constantly streaming toward the mystic who bathes in that light. As a mystic once said " ...the sufi way, instead of loosing sight of the conditions of our existence ... (the sufi) ... Xrays them with the deep insight.... " And so asking why is the beginning of the journey but later on the question "Why?" is asked again from another viewpoint than one's own mind. Why is the question of the mystic, it begins in the mind but ends in the heart, both are important elements in the life of the flower, from seed to flower to fragrance, from temporary to eteranal, "Why?" is the longing for (as Raqib noted in another post today) "When we go beyond reason to the essential longing and yearning of the spark for the flame, where living is its own truth" love asha ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:08:44 -0700 Subject: Re: al-Tirmidhi Brother Jivamasa, I'm only familiar with Abu 'Abd Allah Muhammad b. Ali b. al-Hasan b. = Bishr b. Harun al-Tirmidhi (wow, how would you like to have to endorse = all your checks with that one!). His fundamental writings dealing with = hadith and his interpretations thereof are Nawadir al-usul, 'Ilal = al-shari'a, and Kitab al-Manhiyyat -- I don't believe they have been = translated into a western language, except maybe in French by Genevieve = Gobillot. The remainder of his writings deal mostly with mystical = subjects except for an autobiography (trans. in English by Bernd Radkte = along with Tirmidhi's Kitab Sirat al-awliya which deals exclusively with = Sufi themes) and a text on society and government. Radkte has = translated many of al-Tirmidhi's Sufi texts into German. However, there = are around 80 works attributed to him. Apparently his year of passing = is uncertain, and is believed to be between 905 and 910. Hope that is a little help. Blessings, Nur ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:33:01 +0100 Subject: Re: Why (poem). Why? Because of poverty of love, ignorance, politics, a thousand stupid reasons. Why does When I love another, in a sense it is loving me When I destroy another person, it is destroying A part of me. "Any man'd death diminishes me", said John Donn If thou would know who it is you kill No killing would be done For all are the temple of God Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 11:33:03 +0100 Subject: Re: Why (poem). Why? Because of poverty of love; and ignorance, politics, a thousand stupid reasons. WHY? When I love another, in a sense it is loving me When I destroy another person, it is destroying A part of me. "Any man'd death diminishes me", said the POET If thou would know who it is you kill No killing would be done For all are the temple of God Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:51:01 -0400 Subject: Re: A question about the harm or good of music >>>What you like is not necessarily what's good for your spiritual development.<<< but what you love, truely love, in the deepest depths love and the highest heights love ... is, no matter what it seems to be to others or by any deffinition ... the distinction of the word like (which you refer to) and love, is to me similar to the distinction between taste (as in "so and so has good or bad taste") and beauty (... thus "it may not be of my taste but i see the beauty") But uncovering what it is that you want, that you love, this is a very big "but". In the end it is all music and all is silence, all. In the mean time maybe some music will distract you from hearing the "all" music though perhaps closing your ears may distract you as well ... the point is, what i heard was, that the only sin for a sufi was in being distracted ... Asha ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 15:20:57 -0400 Subject: Re: al-Tirmidhi In a message dated 96-07-20 14:12:49 EDT, you write: > >I'm only familiar with Abu 'Abd Allah Muhammad b. Ali b. al-Hasan b. Bishr b. >Harun al-Tirmidhi (wow, how would you like to have to endorse all your checks >with that one!). His fundamental writings dealing with hadith and his >interpretations thereof are Nawadir al-usul, 'Ilal al-shari'a, and Kitab >al-Manhiyyat -- I don't believe they have been translated into a western >language, except maybe in French by Genevieve Gobillot. The remainder of his >writings deal mostly with mystical subjects except for an autobiography >(trans. in English by Bernd Radkte along with Tirmidhi's Kitab Sirat >al-awliya which deals exclusively with Sufi themes) and a text on society and >government. Radkte has translated many of al-Tirmidhi's Sufi texts into >German. However, there are around 80 works attributed to him. Apparently his >year of passing is uncertain, and is believed to be between 905 and 910. > >Hope that is a little help. > >Blessings, Nur > > thank you Nur, you've been a light! in peace, Jinavamsa ------------------------------ From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 15:21:23 -0400 Subject: Re: Why - my $0.02 hello Gary, re your message below about treatment by haves towards/against have-nots, I feel no desire to flame you, lovingly or harshly. Surely people (some but not all of which were haves at the time) brought on torment to others (some but not all of which were have-nots at the time). And there's usually a superfluity of justifications for it all, in every case, isn't there? just one simple thought here: Hatred is not overcome by hatred. in peace, Jinavamsa In a message dated 96-07-20 13:05:52 EDT, you write: >Subj: Re: Why - my $0.02 >Date: 96-07-20 13:05:52 EDT >From: mmoore@antares.Tymnet.COM (Michael Moore) >Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com >Reply-to: tariqas@europe.std.com >To: tariqas@europe.std.com > >Gary Berlind wrote: >> >> >Dear friends, >> > >> >I don't exactly know what is your reaction to the news of flight 800 >crash, >> >so there is apprehension in posting this. On tv, the most striking thing >> >I watch is a priest's statement about some things we will never know the >> >answer.In time of tragedy, disaster it seemed there's always tendency to >> >blame someone, even God. >> > >> >My feeling is that a "terribly wrong" or "uexplainable events" that is >> >happening all over the world is a "sign" of something is coming. I wonder >> >if some members of this list, experience such "feeling" or "uneasiness". >> > >> >salam >> >maarof >> >> Unexplainable? I think, unfortunately, it's all too explainable. >> >> While I certainly am greatly saddened by the news of the crash, and the >> lives lost, the fact that such violent acts happen around us is to me >> anything but unexplainable. >> >> IMHO, there are so, so many existing injustices in the world today. Tons >> of them. The way so many many indigenous peoples (American Indians, >> Eskimos, rain-forest dwellers, etc.) have (and are!) being treated by those >> folks in the world who are aggressive (or passive) oppressors - including >> even some of us, including even me. The way the have-nots in most >> societies are treated by the haves. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. Big >> mess out there today, some of which has been existing for centuries, maybe >> milennia, no? >> >> IMHO it's naive to ignore these realities, which many of us, myself >> included, tend to ignore every day. It sees to me that pressure just >> naturally builds up when there are these kinds of injustices and inequities >> all over. Is an act of violence against the innocent passengers on an >> airline worse than the acts of cruelty, oppression and abuse that may have >> historically preceded (and not too indirectly led to) that event? IMHO >> they both are nasties. Nasty seems to breed nasty, except when exceptional >> things occur. I think it's always been that way, at least during most of >> recorded history. >> >> Again, I'm not justifying anything about this awful bombing, or whatever it >> was. Just trying to perhaps provide a different perspective. >> >> Anybody who wants to flame me on this, please do so with love and >> consideration - I hurt real easily... >> >> Gary Abdul Matin Berlind > > > Be sure We shall test you with something of fear and hunger, > some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but > give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, who say, > when afflicted with calamity: "To Allah we belong, and to Him > is our return": > > (The Holy Quran: 2:155-156) > > ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:43:02 PST Subject: Re: Why - my $0.02 >just one simple thought here: >Hatred is not overcome by hatred. hmmm.... well, then, what ever could it be that overcomes hatred... ;) Love to all! woodsong p.s. note my new address... same fool, new clothes! ; ) ------------------------------ From: BRYAN CONN Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 20:15:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: A question about the harm or good of music On Sat, 20 Jul 1996 ASHA101@aol.com wrote: > Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 14:51:01 -0400 > From: ASHA101@aol.com > Reply-To: tariqas@facteur.std.com > To: tariqas@facteur.std.com > Subject: Re: A question about the harm or good of music > > >>>What you like is not necessarily what's good for your > spiritual development.<<< > but what you love, truely love, in the deepest depths love and the > highest heights love ... is, no matter what it seems to be to others or by > any deffinition ... I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, then I'd say that most of us aren't qualified to know what we truly love. Our hearts are not free to fulfill their purest desire, but for me, my heart is still saddled by my ego and my lower nafs, and while the heart may move, often I find that it is something else doing the directing. If I can cast of the shackles of my heart, THEN! Then, I won't ever pursue a single thing that is not in my spiritual interests! (Insh'allah) Salaam! Bryan ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 20:38:16 PST Subject: Re: A question about the harm or good of music Hiya Bryan! >I don't know if that's true or not, but if it is, then I'd say that >most >of us aren't qualified to know what we truly love. Our hearts are not >free to fulfill their purest desire, but for me, my heart is still God knows how mired in mud my heart ... but still i catch glimpses! ... i'm not qualified for anything. :) but some things i KNOW... those glimpses of the REAL. I think our hearts are always fulfilling that purest desire... one way or another... <> you know.... woodsong told me. :) love, carol ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:42:27 +0700 Subject: tao te ching: merest traces I highly recommend the translation of Lao Tzu's famous book by Man-jen Cheng (aka Cheng Man Ching), a Tai Chi grandmaster who mastered the five excellences of poetry, painting, calligraphy, traditional Chinese medicine, and T'ai Chi Chu'an. His book of translation plus commentary is called "Lao-Tzu: My words are very easy to understand." published by North Atlantic Books, Richmond, CA. For example, he translates #3 as: Not honoring men of worth keeps the people from competing; Not wanting rare things keeps the people from thievery; Not paying attention to the desirable keeps the hearts of the people from disaster. That is why the Sage governs himself by relaxing the mind, reinforcing the abdomen, gentling the will, strengthening the bones. Man-jan Cheng explains that "reinforcing the abdomen" refers to the absorption of ch'i (the "breath of heaven" and "food of the Mother"). This explanation sharply contrasts the political sort of cynicism implied in some other translations: "govern by emptying minds and filling bellies". To quote Man-jan Cheng's commentary on this passage of Lao-Tzu: "If one were to say that the way the Sage governs himself were no more than to fill the belly with food, how could Lao-Tzu's Tao Teh Ching be worthy of its title?" The mysticism of east Asia is intertwined with martial arts because both are rooted in the accumulation of chi/ki/vitality. Man-jan Cheng's translation is the only one that I have seen which addresses this aspect of Chinese "philosophy". It seems to me that it is impossible to understand books such as the Tao Teh Ching unless the reader (and especially the translator) has some experiential acquaintance with the explicit development of chi/ki/vital energy. The mysticism of the west is based on different latifah. We should be very cautious about using one latifah to interpret or judge another. martin ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:43:28 +0700 Subject: Re: A question about the harm or good of music At 10:31 AM 7/19/96 -0700, you wrote: >No one (at least that I noticed) replied to >the question of music and its value or potential harm >to one's spiritual development. > - --I think Hafizullah's answer is an excellent and thorough one. - --I would only add that the ancient Greeks (who were well-known to the medieval philosophers of Islam) understood that certain types of chords and rhythms could evoke very strong emotions, including lust. Consider what rock concerts are like these days, and you can see the truth of that ancient knowledge! martin ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 10:43:51 +0700 Subject: Re: Why At 09:54 AM 7/20/96 +0800, you wrote: > >Dear friends, > >I don't exactly know what is your reaction to the news of flight 800 crash, >so there is apprehension in posting this. On tv, the most striking thing >I watch is a priest's statement about some things we will never know the >answer.In time of tragedy, disaster it seemed there's always tendency to >blame someone, even God. > >My feeling is that a "terribly wrong" or "uexplainable events" that is >happening all over the world is a "sign" of something is coming. I wonder >if some members of this list, experience such "feeling" or "uneasiness". > >salam >maarof > > Dear Maarof and fellow seekers: As I said in an earlier post regarding the "death of innocents", I feel that it is absurd to "blame God". This includes the nebulous pronouncement "the tragedy is God's will" -- everything is God's will, including our human ability to organize our society. Each of us is part of our society, and in the larger sense, part of the entire humanity. If we have children dying from malnutrition and disease, it is the "fault" of all of us, because we have not yet evolved a just system for the distribution of this world's resources. The individual child does not "deserve" to die, but he/she is part of a society that "deserves" to see the results of its ignorance. Since the formation of cities millenia ago, there have been many people who use industrial skills as their profession. In such work, the lapse of ATTENTION for an instant can bring disastrous results. In the machine age, the loss of a fingertip from a rapidly moving blade has occurred many times. With high technology, failure of a single part can produce disaster: e.g., the O-ring that caused the explosion of a space shuttle. It is essential for us to reflect seriously on the "no problem" attitude toward work, which succeeds for slow-moving agricultural societies but is very dangerous for hitech (computers, nuclear power plants, etc.). martin PS: I agree with Michael Moore's point that the media focuses on BIG tragedies like explosions and crashes, not on daily suffering like hunger. This is not the media's fault. It is the spectators, us, who wish to see drama and fail to heed the signs of slow suffering and decay. I also agree with Asha's explanation of different types of WHY, and the fact that it is always meaningful to ask "Why did this event occur at this particular time?" ... but we don't always get an answer. ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 21:47:47 -0700 Subject: Re: Tao-te-ching (latifa) Martin, please explain what you mean by this -- and which western mysticism are you referring to? I'm not groking your statement. >The mysticism of the west is based on different latifah. We should be >very cautious about using one latifah to interpret or judge another. Nur ------------------------------ From: jabriel@peoples.net (Jabriel Hanafi) Date: Sat, 20 Jul 1996 23:35:10 -0500 Subject: All Barr al Barr Two stones washing one piece of cloth one stone is good one is bad both are the same there is no difference but the Source of the washing there is the space to place oneself between and choose to be a witness to very nature of Reality Jabriel - ----------------------------------------- Jabriel Hanafi Pivotal Point Dynamics ------------------------------ From: Martin Schell Date: Sun, 21 Jul 1996 12:04:27 +0700 Subject: Re: THE SOUL'S THREE FACES Raqib's "addition" to Tanzen's account: >In classical kabbalistic teachings there are two more levels of the soul >above the three mentioned. Chayya is next going up. Then Yechidah. - --I am not well-versed in the Kabalah, but I have some acquaintance with its terminology as well as the interpretations of Nefesh, Ruach, Nishmah. - --It is my understanding that the three "faces" mentioned by Tanzen are "parts of the soul" or "types of soul", perhaps influenced by the Egyptian delineation of "9 souls" mentioned in their Book of the Dead. - --I believe that Raqib's reference to LEVELS of the soul is not really a "continuation of the scale" that was mentioned by Tanzen. Raqib's two terms remind me of the "nonconceptualizing mind" (which "witnesses" the flow of reality, beyond both words and images) and the "immovable mind" (which witnesses both the nonceptual and conceptual minds simultaneously). If this analogy is accurate, then Chaya and Yechidah (as described by Raqib) are actually STATES or levels of being/experience rather than "parts" or "faces" of the soul. - --I would like to add that much of oriental mysticism, especially tantra, works with two currents. The "red" is our vital energy, which derives from the mitochondria we inherit from our mother. (Note: the mitochondria in the ovum are not chromosomal material. The ovum and sperm contain other cell material besides chromosomes.) The "white" is concentrated mental energy or visualization, and is associated with our father (because semen is white). - --References: The section "What is Tantra?" from Oscar Ichazo's essay, "The Great Telesmatta". The Thai martial artist and meditation teacher Mantak Chia describes the two currents as warm (red) and cool (white). - --If we accept the generalization I made in my Tao Teh Ching post about the difference between eastern and western mysticism, we might conclude that east Asian culture is "red" while western culture is "white". martin More of Raqib's post: While >the first three levels of nephesh, ruach, and neshamah are achievable by >some human effort (always with the grace of the beloved), the experience >of the last two are by divine grace directly and are outside the scope >of human effort. It is a redo of the statement I will favor whom I will >favor, even though the person is not worthy. That is to say, Divine >action is directed according to a set of rules and values that are not >apparent or graspable by human intellect or heart. > >Chayah is in the domain of direct experience and its isness is >non-verbal, When we go beyond reason to the essential longing and >yearning of the spark for the flame, where living is its own truth, that >is Chayah. Chayah as the name implies (from Chay - life), is the life >element - the will to live. > >Yechidah is in the realm of intuition, It is essentially identical with >th Divine. As the name implies It is the Monad -- undifferentiated >unity -- a singularly unique holographic particle of God. There is no >distance, no abyss separating the divine spark Yechida from the One >infinite being. > >From some obscure writings of kabbalah -- like Cordevero or Luria as >presented by R' Zalman Schacter. > >Raqib in Santa Monica > The first part of Tanzen's essay: >>THE SOUL'S THREE FACES >> >>The human soul has three faces: nephesh, ruach, and neshemah. >>Nephesh is the animating and animal self--that within which >>scatters and gathers. Ruach is the breathing self, conscious >>in the present moment--a portion of the Breathig Life of All. >>Neshemah is the illuminating self--light of the light of >>guidance from the One. The three are contained, one inside >>the other, although each has its own neighborhood of activity... >> >>The animal self (nephesh) is intimate with the body: It >>nourishes and supports it. It is the "below"--the first >>instant of the arising of all sensation. Having fulfilled its >>purpose and conscious of itself, it becomes a throne, and >>accommodation for the breathing, conscious self--a place for >>ruach to rest--as Isaiah writes (32:15): "when the breath >>pours upon us from the first Source." >> ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #75 ****************************