From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:18:57 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 13:50:01 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #125 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 4 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 125 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Saint Download Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:21:01 -0800 Subject: Re: Atonement for sins Think of sacrifice as giving a gift,as being unselfish(giving up desire for oneself) a real sacrifice is giving what you love very much to someone who'll love it also Mr. Gurdjieff said without sacrifice spiritual development is not possible. Salaam Aleikum james Hallam ------------------------------ From: Saint Download Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:24:17 -0800 Subject: Re: RUMI When A Madman Smiles At You Let the stronger man give to the man whose need is greater; let him gaze upon the lengthening path of life. For riches roll like the wheels of a chariot, turning from one to another. Rig Veda (B.C. 1200-900?) ------------------------------ From: Saint Download Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:35:36 -0800 Subject: Re: Paraclete #1 (short side bar) Pardon but wasn't Moses (Peace not knowing whether He was buried or not) unable to follow Khider(Peace knowing that there was no burial) and in that consideration how then does He relate to Jesus(again Peace knowing there was no burial) and Mohammed(and yet again Peace knowing there was no burial)? Just a thought for relativity;) James Hallam ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 22:32:56 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: More on the Paraclete As Salamu 'alaikum waRahmatullahi waBarakatuhu! To understand that Islam is or is not the logical conclusion of true Christianity one must not only pray for Truth but have an open mind.Truth cannot be hidden for ever .It is my belief and the belief of many researchers that a terrible injustice has been done to Christians because of the conspiracy of interested parties against the unveiling of the truth of the Gospel of Barnabas , which by the way can in my humble opinion shed light or whether Jesus prophesied the coming of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.wassalam. Contrary to what a few e-mailers have been saying scholarly studies have been made on the similarity of the language of the Gospel of Barnabas and the Dead Sea Scrolls.One such book is "The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gospel of Barnabas and the New Testament" by M.A.Yusseff published by American Trust Publications , 10900 W.Washington Street, Indianopolis, Indiana,46231. This book says the reviewer " does a commendable job of authenticating The Gospel of Barnabas and in the process opens up an entirely new field of research .The Dead Sea Schrolls , ever since their discovery in 1947 , have meant many things to many.Contrary to evangelic claims, their discovery has brought no meaningful evidence to strenghthen traditional Christianity based on the New Testament.The evidence presented so far is of a dubious nature and the rationale is flimsy to say the least. " According to Yusseff's thesis , Jesus' coming did not call for the abolition of the Abrahamic faith or the institution of a new faith , based on the vicarious sacrifice of a man-god.He consistently maintains that Jesus alai wasalam is a link in the continuation of the Hebrew tradition.This is an exceedingly important point because until his coming, the Abrahamic faith was confined to the generally narrow racial and parochial concerns of the Israelites.Jesus broadened their concerns and diluted their rigid confines.That this led to the termination of the Israelite dispensation was inevitable.But universalizing the Abrahamic tradition by enlarging upon its laws was left to another son of Abraham a.s. namely Muhamamd s.a.wassalam." A few words from Yusseff will not be out of place "As far back as 1961, I became aware of the Essenes as one who best fitted the description of the people of the Qumran (Dead Sea) Scrolls.Over the years while reading a number of scholarly works on the Scrolls and the Essenes, I became familiar with Essenic terminology.One day when I came across a copy of the Gospel of Barnabas, the abundance of Essenic terminology in its text struck me with a sense of discovery - a discovery I wanted to share with others.If its critics were right , how could this gospel account of Jesus' life and ministry read so much, in its expression like the work of one accustomed to using and thinking in Essenic concepts and terminology? How could this be unless the biblical scholars who felt that there was some connection between the Nazarenes and the Essenes were right.Drawing upon my research training, I set about analysing the Gospel of Barnabas from a historical perspective and compared it with the Qumran Scrolls for terminology and similarity of thought. This work is the first of a series of works based on a scientific approach to discern the truth.Too bad the critics of this astonishing document -to my knowledge -have been overly biased and dedicated to the blind defense of their particular system of religious beliefs that certain statements in the text of the Gospel , which on the surface appear to be suspect, have been seized upon in an effort to discredit this amazing document.My own religious belief stand on its own, with , or without, The Gospel of Barnabas, in light of scientific investigation.Therefore, there is no reason for me to fall into this same kind of erroneous thinking in analyzing this ancient work.Let us pursue the "truth" and leave the indifferent to themselves " M.A.Yusseff January , 1986 At 22:36 9/4/96 +1000, you wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum (peace be with you), > >On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, David Barton wrote: > >> Jesus's role as the Pareclete is well established in the Epistles of >> the New Testament, among other places. In the Episcopal Book of >> Common Prayer one of these passages is given center stage in the >> service of Holy Communion, as one of the "comfortable words": >> >> "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the >> Righteous, and he is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our >> sins only, but for the sins of the whole world." >> >> So your interpretation of Jesus as the First Paraclete (capitalized, >> not because it is a common Christian term but just because it seems >> important to me) is commonly accepted (as is indicated by your >> footnote) in the Christian community. >> >> As to the extension, I cannot speak. Certainly the commonly accepted >> Christian interpretation of the passage is that it refers to the Holy >> Spirit, but we need not take it as right because it is commonly >> accepted in the Christian community. > >Thanks for your explanation, David... so it is accepted that Jesus (peace >be with him) was a "paraclete".... > >The original passage I quoted was: > > > And I will pray the Father, and will give you another Counselor > [Paraclete], to be with you for ever.... > > [John 14:16, Revised Standard Version] > > >By the phrase "will give you another Couselor" [Paraclete], the >implication is that the next Paraclete wasn't there before. If this >refers to the Holy Spirit, the implication seems to me that the Holy >Spirit was not present while Jesus (peace be with him) was present, since >the _other_ Paraclete _will_ be coming (i.e. [he] is not here now). > >However, saying that the Holy Spirit was not present while Jesus (peace >be with him) was on earth, seems to me to be against standard Christian >theology. > >A possible explanation is that the Paraclete which was _coming_ referred >to another Prophet, like Jesus (peace be with him) who was himself a >"Paraclete" (as you pointed out). > >By the way, I am not trying to cause division, but I find this an >interesting topic.... > >Comments welcomed. > > >Wassalam, > >Fariduddien > > > > > > > ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:46:50 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: carol woodsong 3 Dear Jabriel, I wondered about your long silence. There is a saying in the school I come from which is, "Pain is God's calling card." It sounds as though you have found this to be true. Much love, Ellen On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Jabriel Hanafi wrote: > > >>"Ahhh!! But, this incorporation... this LIVING is most important? So...why > >>the focus on "enlightenment"? Is it possible to 'break the knees' as a > >>way TO 'realization of God'?" > > Hi I just got out of the hospitall. All in all I have experienced more > physical pain inb the past five weeks than I have in my entire life. What > thus far is the result. I no longer lust for power, money, women in a way I > did a mere five weeks ago. I am completely out of control all I can turn to > is Allah. Security has taken on new dimension. I view each seemingly > catastrophic challenge as series of happenings which are hard to describe > and yet a gift of extrodinary magnitude. I never thought of Iman as the > bending or breaking of one's knees. The metaphor does not seem very > appealing. But who cares. Besides the times when the pain is of such a > magnitude that I think of checking out the only thing I want with every > fiber of my being is to surrender, is to love, is to recieve, is to forgive > myself and others, is to learn to pray for all of humanity instead of just > myself. The nphrase that Allah works in mysterious ways has now become > quite meaningful. I wish I could be more explicit. I wish I could share > the experience that I am having with my brothers and sisters in a more > meaningful manner. I thank each of you for your prayers. Something > wonderful is happening. Love. Jabriel > > > ----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Pivotal Point Dynamics > > > ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 07:49:36 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: Wild musings of Sayeed Sounds like separation to me. The Beloved is everywhere. There is not a single person that we cannot learn from when we realize this. Much love, Ellen On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Jabriel Hanafi wrote: > >Sayeed Siddiqui/scnm/Stentor wrote: > > >> If I accept any other teacher besides the Beloved > >> I remain just a student > >> > If I accept any teacher I might begin to be taught by Allah, If I can > accept no teacher but Allah I might think that Truth can be placed in a > bottle and be trapped in the plain of the Jinn. Jabriel > ----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Pivotal Point Dynamics > > > ------------------------------ From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 10:54:15 -0400 Subject: Re: Paraclete #1 (short side bar) James Hallam writes: Pardon but wasn't Moses (Peace not knowing whether He was buried or not) unable to follow Khider(Peace knowing that there was no burial) and in that consideration how then does He relate to Jesus(again Peace knowing there was no burial) and Mohammed(and yet again Peace knowing there was no burial)? I cannot tell if this was directed to my response or not; however, if it was I am totally unable to andwer it. My posts have been from a Christian perspective, and since neither Khidr nor Mohammed are a part of Christian theology, I am completely at sea. I apologize, and hope that the more knowledgeable readers of this list may help you. Again, sorry. Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( http://www.intermetrics.com/~dlb ------------------------------ From: Ellen L Price Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 08:09:56 -0700 (MST) Subject: Re: to break ones knees Dear Jabriel, As to the sex, If we realize that this can be a means to experience true union with the Beloved, then the physical act by itself becomes pale, dull and about as interesting as blowing one's nose. Which is sometimes necessary in order to breath, but if one remains healthy, is not required. I don't need to tell you that once you have exprienced the love of the Beloved surrender becomes easier and easier. Why hang on to the old baggage of the concepts of who we think we are. I read a wonderful poem of Rumi's about this just this morning in Coleman Bark's "Essential Rumi," in the chapter called "The Pick Ax." I'm writing from work, but perhaps when I get home I could post it. I love you honesty. It helps us all to be honest with ourselves and dispose of the dross of the self. Much love, Ellen On Sat, 31 Aug 1996, Jabriel Hanafi wrote: > Dear Arron, > > Thanks for your note. I really heard you. What I am afraid of is that > after this is over how I might be prudent with the experience. The freedom > from detachment is so precious and at the same time I just don't know if it > is possible to balance Caesar and Spiritual World. I am seriously thinking > of down sizing on my style of living. It takes to much time and leaves > little time for the quality which could be enjoyed. Another thing. I have > really been doing a celibacy thing over the past six weeks. I mean a for > real one no masturbating and not much though about the subject. It is rare > when I am not trapped by the whole dominate and or be dominated thing when > it comes to sex. All the love has the most difficult time coming through > with this sort of paradigm as I am certain you know. I would just like to > surrender my life in a way that I am free, just like to live in a way where > I can be making a real difference, just like to give it up so I could be the > character that I am without caring about what others think. Just like to > learn to forgive myself and others who I am not even aware I have not > forgiven, just like to learn to authentically pray for us all and liver in a > way where the notion of we are all one becomes a vivid reality. Jabriel > ----------------------------------------- > Jabriel Hanafi > Pivotal Point Dynamics > > > ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:36:55 -0700 Subject: Re: More on the Paraclete Greetings---- Ever since the Middle Ages thru the Victorians and into the early 20th century Muslim in much of the writing were referrred to as 'of the Mohamedan faith' -- this was viewed by Muslim as being highly offensive and misreprenting their faith in submission to Allah and Allah only. But Islam being viewed as intrusive in the West was the brunt of a collective scholarship of ignorance intend to politicize Muhammad(saws)and making Islam pageant rather that show the natural evolution of the revealed Tradition. Thus I find, in this day and age, the use of 'Abrahamic faith' to be of a similar nature. There are no people of the 'Abrahamic faith' -- certainly no Jew would ever say this just as no Muslim would say he was of the 'Mohamedan faith'. This reveals were the scholar comes from and I would put Mr.Yusseff's works in that light -- backwards and Medieval. Salaams to one and all --- Simon Bryquer Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > > As Salamu 'alaikum waRahmatullahi waBarakatuhu! According to Yusseff's thesis , Jesus' coming did not call for the abolition of the Abrahamic faith or the institution of a new faith , based on the vicarious sacrifice of a man-god.He consistently maintains that Jesus alai wasalam is a link in the continuation of the Hebrew tradition.This is an exceedingly important point because until his coming, the Abrahamic faith was confined to the generally narrow racial and parochial concerns of the Israelites.Jesus broadened their concerns and diluted their rigid confines.That this led to the termination of the Israelite dispensation was inevitable.But universalizing the Abrahamic tradition by enlarging upon > > > ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:54:21 EDT Subject: Re: Paraclete #1 (short side bar) Hello Michael, no doubt many will jump in on this thread... just one quick point of agreement, if i may! :) >This is only what I have seen. I believe it is a fair >representation of middle of the road American Christianity. [clip...] >norm. Is it ok to describe my experiences? /Please/ continue to share your experience! I agree that what you present is indeed representative of 'middle of the road American Christianity"... (from /my/ experience) I feel it is important to share our personal EXPERIENCE with one another... We can dispute 'facts' forever.... but what we experience is real... no one can 'take it' away. :) with love, carol ------------------------------ From: Imaan Joshi Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 00:53:29 +0800 Subject: Re: Tasawwuf At 07:02 04/09/96 -0700, you wrote: > > >Dear One: > >Jazak Allahu Khair Br Raqib:-) Imaan Shivani Joshi sci30342@leonis.nus.sg He who painted you all by Himself will not leave you alone in your mad desire. [Jalaluddin Rumi] ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 10:08:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Paraclete #1 (short side bar) Hello, everybody! Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > > to all, > in peace and love of al-Haqq (Allah, Reality, as Truth), > I think we have the potential for distortion whenever we learn about one > tradition through the eyes of another tradition which is trying to prove > itself superior to that first tradition. Any kind of exclusivity, superiority leads to distortion of reality... pushing us further from Reality. If we take the near-koan "All is true, but nothing is real" we have so much to think about that the brain may simply turn-off, that it might be better to go back to meditation or other practices, let spirit overwhelm us. Think: where is the center of infinity, where are the edges? Love, harmony and beauty, tanzen ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:21:16 +0800 Subject: Re: RUMI When A Madman Smiles At You On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote: > > Let the stronger man give to the man whose need is greater; let him > gaze upon the lengthening path of life. For riches roll like the > wheels of a chariot, turning from one to another. > > > > Rig Veda (B.C. 1200-900?) > > Assalamualaikum Saint, This reminds me of "charity". Is there something else, I don't "see" here? The coleman bark's poem based on mathnawi (madman smiles..) has a special meaning to me, because sometimes i go to graveyard and see strangers in life finally rest together. So how does the above passage means to you? salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:31:59 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Song of Songs (short) [was Re: Paraclete #1 (long) Salam.Love.Blessings .Barakah.EVERYTHING NICE AND BEAUTIFUL TO ALL OF YOU.Anyway I have got some materials which I had put somewhere sometime ago.Someone asked me about the prophecy of the Prophet Muhammad in the section of the Bible known as Deuteronomy.I hope that the following is useful Thru the mouth of Holy Moses a.s we get the following revelation from God Almighty "I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren , like unto thee and will put my words in his mouth and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.And it shall come to pass that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name , I will require it of him (Deuteronomy 18:18-19) Well the Arab Ishmaelites are the brethren of the Israelites.Like unto thee.Well Muhammad was very much like Moses.Both were leaders of communities.Both migrated.Moses migrated out of Egypt and Muhammad migrated from Makkah to Madinah.Both received a law from God .Both went up the mountain to pray and worship.Moses went up Sinai and Muhammad went up the Jabal Nur.Both preached an unambiguous concept of the Unity of GOd.Hear O Israel Our Lord Our God is One.Or in Islam : Thereis nothing worthy of worship but God. Gabriel communicated the words of God to Muhammad which the latter verbalised and passed down to his people each and every word as the above prophecy testifies.The words of St.Peter in The Acts 3:20-22 prove that the Prophet will arise before the second advent of Jesus a.s.Jesus made it even more clear in the following words "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing foth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43) Another prophecy from Deuteronomy which mentions the 10,000 saints which I said much earlier was mentioned also in the Song of Solomon "And he said, the Lord came from Sinai and rose from Seir unto them; he shined forth from Mount Paran and he came with ten thousand saints; from his right hand went a fiery law for them :(Deuteronomy: 33:2)Jacut's Geographisches Worterbuch (F.Westenfield, Leipzig, 1862, Vol 111 page 834) says that Faran is the name of Mecca or that part of Arabia.Dr.A. Benishch call it in his translation of the Pentateuch the desert of Paran. Remember when Muhammad s.a.wassalam conquered Mecca in the most bloodless conquest of all time he had 10,000 saintly companions with him.And he was the bearer of the divine Law.Still not satisfied so let us go to the Song of Solomon In this prophecy of the Song of Solomon (5:9-16)the one who is spoken of here is the Beloved of God.One of the titles of the Holy Prophet Muhammad is Habibullah the friend or Beloved of God.Secondly it states " my beloved is white and ruddy" and that his hair is black like a raven.No this is not the description of Jesus nor of God who is Beyond anthropormorhic concepts .But this is the description of Muhammad. !"Chiefest among the then thousand" again the words ten thousand repeating what was said in Deuteronomy above ! The very name of Muhammad in verse 16 which reads : Yea, he is altogether lovely " in the English Bible.Note that as I had pointed out the day before yesterday , in the Hebrew Bible the word is "Muhammadim" (See Hebrew Bible printed for the British and Foreign Bible Society by Trowitzsch & Sons, Berlin, p.1159.)I want to get the full Hebrew text then I am satisfied.There are tomes of information on prophecies of Muhammad in world scriptures.For sceptics let me say this.If you believe in Almighty God and that he sent Prophets to nations and ended the chain of Prophets with the Last Prophet Muhammad surely the Source of all Prophecy namely God Almighty has the Wisdom and Power to ensure the miraculousness prophecies remain in some form or another despite what the human hand or the environment has wrought ! Any way Love and Peace from me to you.And forgiveness from anyone whom I may have hurt inadvertently At 22:18 9/3/96 +0800, you wrote: >Salam.Love you for your reply.Please give me time to collect my materials. >At 14:50 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >>hello Zainuddin and all, >> >>In a message dated 96-09-02 09:35:11 EDT, sham@po.pacific.net.sg (Zainuddin >>Ismail) writes .... <<>>>: >> >>>But even before anything else Deuteronomy's prophecy of Muhammad >> >>interesting: where in Deuternomy is this found? what is way in which Muhammad >>is referred to (name or description, in Hebrew)? >> >>>coming from Paran and with 10,000 saints is repeated in the Song of Solomon >>>which describes the beloved with raven-black hair and with ruddy complexion >>>and again with the 10,000 companions. >> >>In Song of Songs (Song of Solomon), I find this description at 5:10-16, but >>no mention of 10,000 anything. What passage are you thinking of? >> >>>And remember when Muhammad re-entered >>>Mecca and conquered it in the most bloodless conquest in history , he was >> >>may this style of conquest of his be a message for all mankind >> >>>accompanied with the 10,000 saints and all the while he was praying ,with >>>head hung low in Submission to Allah Almighty.And if you were to go further >>>into the original Hebrew in the Song of Solomon you will find his name in >>>Hebrew form of Muhammadim shortly after the opening words of Ya Banat >>>Yereshalam O Daughters of Jerusalem...... >> >>if I may, one last question here: I do not find Ya Banat Yereshalam O >>Daughters of Jerusalem in the Song of Songs of Solomon. What I do find, >>repeatedly, is the expressopm Daughters of Jerusalem, which in the Hebrew >>reads b'not Y'rushala'im (at 2:7, 3:5, 5:8, 5:16), with no Ya preceding in >>any of these cases. Which passage are you thinking of? And what is the Hebrew >>form of Muhammad (Muhammadim=?) >> >>very interesting practice, looking back to see indications of the later >>teachings in earlier teachings. >> >>in peace, >>Jinavamsa >> >> > > ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:33:01 +0800 Subject: Re: RUMI When A Madman Smiles At You On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Imaan Shivani Joshi wrote: > > >Assalaamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu > > >as salaamu 'alaikum Br Maarof:-) > That was beautiful:-) It is true, is it not, that as per the >modern adage, we are who we keep company with; "birds of a feather flock >together" etc etc etc:-) > ################################################### > Waalaikumsalam Imaan, There are other things in that piece of poetry. Sufis, I think, particularly like humor. Humor is gentle way of explaining the idiocy of life. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:49:32 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Salat in world religions The direction of the Kaabah is only required in formal worship for the sake of unity and psychologically graviting the Muslims towards a meta-historically important part of human history.The Kaabah is merely the first mosque built on earth for the worship of God and Mecca is the city that Adam built.It is surprising that according to legend, Jeddah is names after the Mother of Mankind EVE.a.s.Jeddah means Grandmother ,actually. In private supplications directions are not important because you can be supplicating during any activity whether you are working, supplicating, resting or even having legitimate sex.If you are on a plane for example you pray in any direction.This is what happened during the time of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w when they were riding but the obligation to pray is always there although while travelling some leeway is given.No problem at all.God is EVERYWHERE.WHERESOVER YOU TURN YOUR FACE THERE IS THE FACE OF GOD. It is interesting to note that according to an authentic hadis or saying of Muhammad found in the Muslim collection of Hadis,it is stated that forty years after the building of the Kaabah , Adam built the earliest Temple or Mosque at Jerusalem.So turning away from Jerusalem was only turning back to the source. At 00:14 9/4/96 -0500, you wrote: >>Assalamualaikum, >> >> >>The five daily prayer (salat) is obligatory in Islam after >>Isra and Miraj of the Prophet. At first Jerusalem was the >>prayer direction until God's revealation to change the direction >>to Kaaba. This turning point in direction is very significant. >>Before Muhammad, the religion of Allah is scattered all over >>the world -- each tribe has its prophet/s with its own rituals. >>If I can make an analogy a river or rivers, this turning point >>is like all the rivers merging and finally flow to its >>destiny -- the Ocean. >> >>salam > > >An old navigator has a question of curiosity (the worst kind of question >probably!), but it concerns how one might find the direction of Kaaba if >one is thousands of miles away. Is just a general alignment acceptable? If >one is thousands of miles away (such as in the United States) would one use >rhumb line or great circle directions? If one is, say, 12,000 miles away >from Kaaba, why not face west instead of east, or even north for that >matter. As I say, this is just a matter of curiosity, but it does seem that >each of the questions might have several "correct" answers; typical of many >religious questions. John. > > > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #125 *****************************