From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:19:11 1996 Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 20:51:32 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #126 tariqas-digest Wednesday, 4 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 126 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 01:54:54 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Song of Songs (short) [was Re: Paraclete #1 (long) Dear Friend, Could you check the true meaning and Hebrew words of Song of Solomon 5:9-16 ,please.Anyway i found it easy to do Biblical research when I had a software called Bible.It contained King James, New Standard Version, International Standard ,etc etc.One Bible uses the word myriads for ten thousand and this is not helpful.I remember the papers mentioning that some Bible scholars want to change the word "snow" with "water".What liberties these people are taking ! At 14:50 9/2/96 -0400, you wrote: >hello Zainuddin and all, > >In a message dated 96-09-02 09:35:11 EDT, sham@po.pacific.net.sg (Zainuddin >Ismail) writes .... <<>>>: > >>But even before anything else Deuteronomy's prophecy of Muhammad > >interesting: where in Deuternomy is this found? what is way in which Muhammad >is referred to (name or description, in Hebrew)? > >>coming from Paran and with 10,000 saints is repeated in the Song of Solomon >>which describes the beloved with raven-black hair and with ruddy complexion >>and again with the 10,000 companions. > >In Song of Songs (Song of Solomon), I find this description at 5:10-16, but >no mention of 10,000 anything. What passage are you thinking of? > >>And remember when Muhammad re-entered >>Mecca and conquered it in the most bloodless conquest in history , he was > >may this style of conquest of his be a message for all mankind > >>accompanied with the 10,000 saints and all the while he was praying ,with >>head hung low in Submission to Allah Almighty.And if you were to go further >>into the original Hebrew in the Song of Solomon you will find his name in >>Hebrew form of Muhammadim shortly after the opening words of Ya Banat >>Yereshalam O Daughters of Jerusalem...... > >if I may, one last question here: I do not find Ya Banat Yereshalam O >Daughters of Jerusalem in the Song of Songs of Solomon. What I do find, >repeatedly, is the expressopm Daughters of Jerusalem, which in the Hebrew >reads b'not Y'rushala'im (at 2:7, 3:5, 5:8, 5:16), with no Ya preceding in >any of these cases. Which passage are you thinking of? And what is the Hebrew >form of Muhammad (Muhammadim=?) > >very interesting practice, looking back to see indications of the later >teachings in earlier teachings. > >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 02:04:09 +0800 Subject: Ibrahim and Musa (was Re: Paraclete #1 (short side bar)) Assalamualaikum Michael and David, Thanks for the informative posts in response to my question. They in a way fill the missing link in my understanding of the Quran, especially on the subjects of Abraham (Ibrahim) and Moses (Musa) peace be upon them both. That small piece of land in middle east is blessed with so many apostles of God, but sadly the one with so many wars and blood shed. I hope if everyone who lives there pray for peace, insha-Allah God the merciful and ever forgiving will grant that peace. salam ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 11:16:14 -0700 Subject: Re: Tasawwuf Imaan Shivani Joshi wrote: > > Assalaamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahe wa Barakatu > > For quite some time now, I have I suppose, been teetering on the > brink of entering the world of tasawwuf, if not already putting one foot > in:-) alHamdulillah, I know some very good brs here, where I live who have > also been helpful to me...one thing that bothers me somewhat however, is > this; before any of you embraced tasawwuf as islam, did any of you feel > any doubt? did you ever question this practice? - -snip- > > Imaan Shivani Joshi, Joshi, Maybe I can be of help (maybe not). But let me ask "what do you expect to gain by having answers to your questions?" If we all say we have doubts, will mean that it is ok for you to have doubts? If we all say, "We have never had even the slighest doubt!", would that mean that you are not allowed to have doubts? You seem to be falling into the same trap that I am constantly falling into. That is; trying to figure out where I am by drawing from the concensus of my peers. For example: Am I tall or short? Let's see, many are taller and many are shorter, so I am kind of in the middle range. We do this same sort of 'seeking the norm' in so many areas of our lives. Am I driving too fast? Am I pretty? Am I smart? Do other people have these thoughts. It is a natural socialization mechanism that makes us 'seek the norm'. So, now the question. Is it beneficial to apply this same type of approach to your spiritual seeking? My thinking is "no". IMHO on the spiritual path you are truly alone. Your path is unique and your relationship to allah is personal and private. If you get too much from other people, then you will be walking their path and not your own. Now, as for a shaykh, might I ask what your vision of a shaykh is? What do you expect a shaykh to be like. Do you expect him/her to tell you what to do? to give advice? to give spiritual exercises? Hmmmm. Consider this proposition. This tariqas is your shaykh. Not me or any individual per say, but arn't you receiving guidance? Perhaps you want a flesh and blood shaykh. What would you expect to get from a human shaykh that you can not get from other sources? This is a real question with no right or wrong answer. If you come up with some things, then ask yourself if perhaps friends could not provide the same thing. Now if you come to something that only a shaykh can provide, then ask, does he/she have to live close by to provide that? If no, then you may have a whole world full of shayks to choose from. Many people have more than one shaykh. You could take bayat from a shaykh who lives across the world and who you may never see again. Many people have this type of shaykh and they believe he helps. If there comes a time when you feel that you need a local shaykh so that you can camp on his doorstep and kiss his feet then there is nothing preventing you from doing this later. Now suppose you join a tariqa and later find that you are not in the right place. You can quit! Yes, we are allowed to make mistakes (mistake from one perspective, prerequisite from another) and then move on. Trust your inner voice to lead you. Not my inner voice or his or her inner voice, but your inner voice. Good seeking - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 14:37:24 EDT Subject: Prayer for World Peace Infinite Spirit, bring Peace and Good Will to all people. Direct the pathway of every Nation into unity, happiness, and prosperity. Remove the thought of fear and greed from the mind of man. Let every thought of hate be turned to love; every thought of fear be turned to faith; every thought of doubt be turned to certainty; every thought of war be turned to Peace. Heal the wounds of the world and bring Peace upon the face of the earth. And so it is. -- given to a traveler at Taos Pueblo ------------------------------ From: pathway@dnet.net (John Womack) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 15:21:46 -0500 Subject: Paraclete? maybe. Dear friends and adversaries. This is in response to the question about what Christians are taught about the OT prophets, especially Abraham. I have not attended a fundamentalist church in almost 50 years, so I am sure that it has changed, and can only speak about my own memories. I remember church as a young boy, back in the 1930's. It was Basic Baptist, way down south in Mississippi; hot sweaty Sunday nights in church with old women crying and fanning their tears with funeral parlor fans and acknowledging themselves to be miserable sinners and "wretches". Jesus was all that was ever talked about; Jesus and the Devil. Talk about a Trinity - we had a Quadraped: Father, Son, Holy Ghost, and the DEVIL. This Devil was no pastie either, he sure didn't have to settle with just the hindmost. He could fight the Father, Son and Holy Ghost in a winner-take-all match, and according to the preacher, the Devil was ahead - way ahead. He had all the kingdoms of the world, most of the people, and he had ahold of me. But God was also out to get us; there would come a time of reckoning, where standing at the gates of heaven, we would smite ourselves on the forehead as God reminded us of a long-forgotten sin we had committed many years before, and then God would tell us to go to hell. Jesus was our only hope, probably because he was a nice white boy with blonde hair and blue eyes (we had his picture in the church). And he could come and grab us and sneak us into heaven, or whatnot. Now the OT prophets - where did they fit into all this mess? Was Jesus a prophet? No way, he was up above them, on a par with the Devil, remember? Abraham, frankly, was an embarrassment. All I knew was that he was a rich old Jew who had serious women problems, including his sister! If he had come to Mississippi, we would have had to arrest him. Then there was Moses, well, we knew all about him. He built this ark that he floated in the bulrushes, then when it rained for 40 days and nights, he floated up to Mount Sinai where a dove gave him the 10 commandments, which he then brought back to give to his people, the Jews, whom God had chosen to wander in the desert or live in captivity. God said: "We need Jesus to save the world." And he was sent to Mississippi. We didn't know anything about Islam until Malcolm X claimed to be a Muslim. That shut us all up, sent us back to the dictionary, and it didn't know what a Muslim was, either. Now, I hope I haven't offended anyone by this - it IS the truth - but ONLY as I remember it. I also left Mississippi in 1949, and haven't really been back, I'm sure it has changed too. Those were hard times for simple people. Gnosis wasn't their strong point; high-school diplomas were hard to find (hard to get, for that matter!) So what was the church all about? Pure and simple - it WAS the Paraclete. But, where was it? We didn't have its picture on the wall. Well, Sufi-like, it was hiding, and mostly came out in those wonderful hymns that carried to, and planted in our souls, the glorious message of God's Great Love for us. Perhaps that IS the purpose of the Paraclete: to carry God's true message to all people in spite of their problems, the place where they live, or the religion they were born into. Once the unspoken word is spoken, then it is killed; but when it is floating quietly in the bulrushes, it may be found by anyone. ------------------------------ From: Aaron McEmrys Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 13:15:51 -0700 Subject: Re: Atheism/Existence of God Fred Rice wrote: > > Assalamu alaikum, > > Just an interesting comment.... a Muslim/Sufi who I think posted to > soc.religion.islam (and who I think may read this list) made a > comment like this.... He said that when discussing the topic of "God" > with atheists, he asks the atheist what "god" it is exactly that the > atheist _doesn't_ believe in. When this "god" is described, he usually > finds he doesn't believe in _that_ "god" either! :) > > Wassalam, > > Fariduddien Rice There is a passage in the novel Catch-22, where that method is in play. Yossarian and his lover get into an arguement about *which* god neither of them believes in. Yossarian says that the god he doesn't believe in is vengeful, immature, and uncaring. His lover is crying at his beastliness.Sobbing, she argues that the god *she* doesn't believe in is kind, loving, and merciful! Aaron ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 15:45:58 -0700 Subject: Pictures :-( I guess since only one person was interested in sending me a picture, I won't bother with a picture web page. Oh well. At least I got to see a nice picture of Michael Roland and David Barton gave us his web page. Cheers - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: malik@uni-muenster.de (Aurangseb Malik) Date: Thu, 05 Sep 96 01:22:36 Subject: Information about Gabriel? Asalamoaleikum, for some reason i feel/felt great attraction (or influence?) (in meditations) by the archangel called Gabriel, and i do not know anything about his attributes. I would be so pleased if you can light my ignorance. Thanks, Aorangzeb. - --- - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Aurangseb Malik * Josef Beckmann Str. 9 * 48159 Muenster * Germany Phone ++49+251-218236 * email malik@uni-muenster.de to receive my PGP public key mail me with subject 'keyrequest' - --------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: yemimt@singnet.com.sg (Crescent Clinic & Surgery) Date: Thu, 5 Sep 1996 08:32:23 +0800 (SST) Subject: Re: Salat in world religions Zainuddin wrote in response to Maarof's observations regarding salat "If we believe that God sent Prophets from antient times and that there were believers thousands of years before historical Islam, then why do we wonder that the salat-like worship of Tibetans, Jews, resemble to some extent the muslim form of Salat. It would be interesting to compare how Jesus Christ prayed to God. Some indications as to the postures of prayer appear in the Gospels of the New Testament. In Matthew Chapter 26 it is related how in the garden of Gethsemane, in the presence of Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he (Jesus) "went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed.... . In Luke 22 v 14 :And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down and prayed. In Mark 7 v35 "And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground and prayed. It would appear that Muslims, more than Christians, are following these postures of prayer. Apart from the postures, each of the above accounts seem to emphasize the fact that he "went a little furthur" before he prayed. Was he perhaps leading the prayers with his disciples behind him? ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:41:22 +0100 Subject: Re: Pictures :-( >I guess since only one person was interested in sending >me a picture, I won't bother with a picture web page. >Oh well. > >At least I got to see a nice picture of Michael Roland >and David Barton gave us his web page. > >Cheers >-- >Michael J. Moore >---- Dear Michael: It is a nice idea, but my computer is not up to date for pictures. Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:45:57 -0700 Subject: Spirit - pneuma Greetings, brother Zainuddin,=20 One of the sources you were quoting concerning pneuma as a human being = is not substantiated elsewhere in John's gospel where the word pneuma is = found without any qualifying prefixes or suffixes. For example, in John = 3:8: *The pneuma blows where it will* where it is translated as wind in = English. In John 19:30: *and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit* = , the original Greek also uses pneuma. Also, in the paraclete verses = we've been discussing, John 14:17 and 15:26: the *Spirit of Truth* given = to the disciples in Greek *to pneuma tes aletheias* (hope this is = correct because i'm staring at Greek letters at this moment) is the = identical Greek words used by the Jewish mystic Philo of Alexandria = (contemporary with Jesus) in his second treatise on Moses where he = writes: *(Moses) becomes divinely possessed, inspired by the pneuma of = truth which was accustomed to come upon him, and utters prophetic = oracles* Blessings to you, Nur ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Wed, 4 Sep 1996 17:45:49 -0700 Subject: paraclete #2 (my concluding remarks) Greetings and peace. It is my wish that in our sharing on this topic, it may be possible to = find a point of agreement, a kind of marriage, between the Islamic and = Christian perspectives, and now we seem to be including Judaism. So the = best I can offer at this time are some passages by mystics on the = matter. So I apologize that this post will be a kind of poorly-made = patchwork quilt, and i pray to Allah that God willing i am able to find = the words to thread it together with my sewing kit. I would like to quote from Origen (end of 2nd century) on his discussion = of the paraclete sayings. Origen has been called the greatest Christian = teacher and mystic after Jesus's disciples (by St. Jerome, the = Cappodocian mystics such as Gregory of Nyssa, Didymus the Blind) -- = although he was eventually excommunicated or thrown out of the Church = 300 years after his death. IMHO, for me he is like a Christian Ibn = Arabi, being both a profound mystic of great experiential depth as well = as having composed over 1000 writings. He was the successor of Clement = of Alexandria as head of the Alexandrian academy of mystical and = metaphysical philosophy at age 18, and spent a good part of his life = studying with Jewish mystics, even traveling to Arabia in his later = years. The following are his relevant passages pertaining to the = paraclete in his On First Principles, Chapter 7. *the Holy Spirit, whom our Lord and Savior in the gospel according to = John called the Paraclete... it is the same Holy Spirit himself who was = in the prophets and the apostles, that is, both in those who believed in = God before the coming of Christ (Origen would include the Greek mystics = such as Plato and Pythagoras, besides the Jewish prophets in this group) = and in those who have taken refuge in God through Christ... the special = coming of the Holy Spirit to humanity is declared to have happened after = Christ's ascension into heaven rather than before his coming into the = world. Before that time the gift of the Holy Spirit was bestowed on = prophets only and on others among humanity who happened to have proved = worthy of it. But after the coming of the Savior it is written that the = saying was fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet Joel, namely that: = it shall come to pass in the last days that I will pour out my spirit = upon all flesh and they shall prophesy -- which indeed is similar to = that other saying: All nations shall serve Him... to some is granted by = the Spirit the word of wisdom, to others the word of knowledge, to = others faith. And thus to each individual person who is able to receive = Him, the same Spirit becomes and is apprehended as the very thing of = which s/he, who has been deemed worthy to partake, stands in need... = [the gospel] says the apostles could not yet receive those truths which = the Savior wished to teach them until the time *when the Holy Spirit = should come* who would pour himself into their souls and to enlighten = them concerning the nature and faith of the Trinity... We must know = therefore that the Paraclete is the Holy Spirit, who teaches truths = greater than can be uttered by the voice, truths which are, if I may so = say *unspeakable* and which *it is not lawful for a man to speak* = (reference to 2 Corinthians 12:4), that is, which cannot be indicated in = human language... But the Paraclete, who is called the Holy Spirit is = so called from his work of consolation [Greek paraclesis; Latin = consolatio], for anyone who has been deemed worthy to partake of the = Holy Spirit, when he has learned its unspeakable mysteries, undoubtedly = obtain consolation and gladness of heart. By the Spirit's guidance, he = has come to know the reasons for all things that happen, and why and how = they happen, his soul can never be in any way disturbed or admit any = feeling of sadness... But in the epistle of John, our Savior is also = called a paraclete when it says *If any person sin, we have a paraclete = with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, and he is the propitiation = for our sins* Let us consider whether perhaps this title paraclete = means one thing when applied to the Savior and another when applied to = the Holy Spirit. Now in regard to the Savior, paraclete seems to mean = counselor or intercessor. For in Greek it bears both meanings, = comforter and intercessor/counselor, but according to the phrase that = follows in which it says that *he is the propitiation for our sins*, it = seems that in the case of the Savior the word paraclete must be = understood rather in the sense of intercessor/counselor, for he is said = to intercede with the Father *for our sins*. When used of the Holy = Spirit, however, the word paraclete ought to be understood as = *comforter*, because he provides comfort for the souls to whom he opens = and reveals a consciousness of spiritual knowledge. Now i would like to introduce Judaism. The great Jewish mystic Philo of = Alexandria, who was a contemporary of Jesus although there was never a = connection, and wrote in Greek, used the term paracletos as one = attribute to define his doctrine of the Logos or the Word. Christians of = course will identify with this because of their association of Christ = and Logos. But he also identifies Logos with the Angel. Philo writes, = *Now those of whom we have been speaking pray to be nourished by the = Logos of God... (he quotes Genesis 48:15-16 about Jacob being nourished = by an angel)... He (Jacob) considers God as the one who nourishes him, = not his Logos, but the Angel who is the Logos as a healer of ills.* For = Philo, because the Self-Existent God cannot be seen, He can only be = known through the Logos or Word, and this he identifies with paracletos = =3D Logos =3D the Angel. It is too much for this post to get into, but = this can also be traced to early Jewish merkebah mysticism regarding the = importance of the Angel above all other angels, at the head of the = spiritual hierarchy, as the Angel of Great Counsel and Metatron which is = connected with the prophet Ezekiel's vision. It is also closely related = to God's promise to the children of Israel in Exodus 23:20-21: *Behold, = I send My angel before you in order to keep you on the way and to bring = you to the place which I have prepared. Give heed to him and hearken to = his voice, and do not rebel against him, as he will not pardon your = transgression for My Name is in him.* (compare with Quran Sura 2:97-98: = Say whoever is an enemy to Gabriel - for he brings down the revelation = to thy heart by God's will, a confirmation of what went before, and = guidance and glad tidings for those who believe. Whoever is an enemy of = God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael, Lo, God is an = enemy to those who reject faith. Also compare with the paraclete = sayings in John) Return to Origen. In his Commentary on the Gospel of John, Origen goes = on to identify Christ, as the paracletos of intercession and counseling = (not the paracletos as comforter) with the Angel of Great Counsel. = Following in Philo's footsteps, he equates this with the Word, but in a = Christian context and writing for the mature Christian: *the Word is also Son because he reveals the secrets of the Father, who = would be Mind in an analogous fashion to the Son's being called Word. = Because just as in us the word is the messenger (Greek aggelos) of the = things envisioned by the mind, so God's Word, having known the Father = whom no creature can apporach without a guide, reveals what he knows, = namely the Father... and insofar as he is the Word, he is also the Angel = of Great Counsel on whose shoulder the dominion will be* He goes on to describe his personal experiences, also detailed by his = mureed and biographer Gregory Thaumaturgus in the Panegyris text, = wherein as a Christian, his personal guide is Christ =3D paracletos as = counselor =3D Angel of Great Counsel. This personal guide, as it were, = is with him always, and as he writes leads him to *arrive at the perfect = man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ* (Origen's = Homily on Numbers 24:3) One can find similar language in the Muslim = context in Ibn Arabi, in al-Jili's treatise on the Perfect Man, and in = Suhrawardi's opus on his personal guide the Crimson Angel. For me personally, I find the first quotation by Origen, in part, very = helpful in that we don't have to look at the paraclete as an either/or = definition, but as this AND this. Let us also consider that for early = Christianity, Jesus was sufficient. Christians felt they received all = they need from God's promise and revelation in the message of Jesus and = who Jesus was for them, and there was no need for them to anticipate or = hope for another prophet to give them something they were missing. = Isn't this the same feeling Muslims have towards Mohammed PBUH and the = sacred revelation of the Quran? So I believe Allah provides humanity = with all the signs for us to get away from either/or thinking (either = Muslim way or the Christian way or the Jewish way) which only creates = division and agreement is never and will never be found with this kind = of limited thinking, and shows us that things can be seen as both this = AND this (Muslim and Jewish and Christian ways as truth). One cannot = look at something properly with one eye, but needs both for proper = stereoscopic sight and to perceive something's depth. So, if we carry Origen's mysticism through to some kind of conclusion, = Jesus (giving a promise to his disciples and Christians) will serve as = the paracletos as intercessor and counselor as Spirit or Angel to those = who follow the path of Christ, and this in no way negates paracletos as = Comforter which accompanies prophets past (Judaism) and future = (Mohammed). And for the community or nation which a prophet addresses, = the prophet is also the paraclete of counseling for those specific = followers, but not for other communities or nations who have another = paraclete for counseling. And at the same time it is the one and the = same paraclete of comfort from the One God that has been with all = prophets and messengers equally. Return to Quran Sura 61:6 with Jesus's = prophesy of the coming of the Comforter Ahmed. Did Jesus address this = to his disciples or to the people? To the people, of course, because no = disciple would accuse him of sorcery as the Sura says. So Jesus, in = Origen's light, cannot be speaking of the paraclete of counseling -- = which is also only for the spiritually mature who follow in Jesus = footsteps -- and must be referring to the paraclete of comfort to come = upon another prophet in the future. Hope that makes sense. It's the best i can do to offer my personal = conclusions to this discussion. Blessings to all in the One, Nur ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Wed, 04 Sep 1996 17:50:37 -0700 Subject: Re: RUMI When A Madman Smiles At You maarof wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Sep 1996, Saint Download wrote: > > > > Let the stronger man give to the man whose need is greater; let him > > gaze upon the lengthening path of life. For riches roll like the > > wheels of a chariot, turning from one to another. > > > > Rig Veda (B.C. 1200-900?) > > Assalamualaikum Saint, > This reminds me of "charity". Is there something else, I don't "see" > here? [...] > So how does the above passage means to you? What does the above passage mean to me? Well, as my first teacher taught me: every set of words has 49 meanings, seven times seven! A major meaning for me here is that anything physical, of the earth, passes from hand to hand, as time passes. In one lifetime a person may have much gold; in another, much dust. So it is important, it seems from the Rig Veda that one: "Take time to send something ahead."--paraphrase, Qur'an 75:13. "Store your treasures in heaven, no on earth."--paraphrase, Matthew 6:20. If we take the idea and practice of charity to its limit we find that we have to love, truly love, the "agape" kind, our neighbors as ourselves. Now before we can do that it is likely we will have to love God with our whole minds, with our whole hearts, and with our whole souls. Such is the Spirit of Things! Peace and love, tanzen ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #126 *****************************