From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:21:55 1996 Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 19:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #133 tariqas-digest Sunday, 8 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 133 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Lilyan Kay Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaffea Lalla's question (was: pray for world peace etc.) asalaam-u-aleikum I am sorry that all I have are more questions. A child who is raised in the midst of poverty and cruelty becomes a dangerous thug. Is the best response to lock him up in prison, or is it to lessen the gap between rich and poor, reduce unemployment and implement gun control? A pregnant woman arrives at the hospital and is made to lay down during labor which therefore doesn't progress. Eventually she gets a ceasarian section for this reason. The doctor is careless and doesn't ligate all the blood vessels before sewing her up. The OR tech didn't clean the room properly and she is exposed to infection from the last case. She ends up deathly ill with internal bleeding and infection. This is unfortunately not an isolated instance. Is the best response to treat her or to improve standards of care? Several nations in the world grow wealthier and stronger militarily than the others. They pursue nationalist policies of self interest, bullying the smaller countries economically and politically, and interfering in their internal affairs by promoting oppressive regimes which they build up militarily over the years. They delude themselves that they are being kinder and gentler than their ancestors who were more open in their efforts to colonize and plunder other lands. When these regimes get "out of hand", what is the correct response for the bigger countries - to remove them themselves, arm the opposition, or to blame it on one of the other superpowers that had a hand in creating the mess? Or is it important to look at what created the situation in the first place? Are these either or questions? In the first case, who is responsible - the father who left when the child was 2, or those who horde wealth while others live in misery? In the second case, who is responsible - the OR tech or the doctor? Or the nurses who know all of this but say nothing? In the 3rd case, who is reponsible - the dictator, the people who fail to overthrow him, or those who put him there in the first place to protect their oil interests? Is it enough to have love in our hearts and pray that everything sorts itself out? Is it worthwhile to determine blame - "point fingers"? Is it necessary to do so in order to stop the cycles of carelessness, greed and destruction? Is it possible to take up such concerns while on a spiritual path? Is it possible not to? peace and blessings to all Lily ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 07:40:23 +0100 Subject: Re: World Peace I surrender my ideas about the Iraq and the USA being there. Peace can only exist if people truly love their neighbor as themselves. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 23:45:20 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: pray for world peace.... work for a transfiggured Earth There are no clergy in a theodemocracy.That is why it is not known as a theocracy.Muhammad said that the leader of a people is their servant.This is stressed in the meaning of the Maula which also means Leader and Servant like we find further in the arabic term Mawali.There are a lot of misconceptions because so much damage has been done but there is some hikmah behind all these because timing is important in everything and a lot of moral and spiritual spadework has to be done.Or else what we get is mobocracy masquerading behind both direct democracy and theocracy. At 03:16 9/8/96 -0400, you wrote: >>>>I suggest that this is the fundamental concept of democracy, and I don't >see how it can exist with theocracy<<< >Well, yes John, i see what you mean exactly. If a theocracy were actually >moulded upon the spiritual hierarchy and the way in which they work, then, >like my shaykah, you would never see the Head of a theocracy telling anyone >what to do, and niether would any of his or her officers. There is a time and >a place for everything, even a time for when church and state can exist as >one externally. Then will come a time when the idea of church has become >internally activated and it will not be needed externally, that time may have >already come but it is still in process. > If one can see the ideal with which Mohammud (saws) established his sense >of rule, then one may be able to internalize that sense of rule. When our >ideals match our capacity (or is it the other way around) then surely his >(saws) intention will be fulfilled. > When the westerners come to recognize the Islam in themselves and >recognize the ideal of the present Islamic world, and when the present >Islamic world comes to recognize the internalised Islam of the West and are >recognized for their corresponding Islam, and when the present Islamic world >feels recognized for thier ideal but also recognises the ideal of the West, >then i think we will see what is ment by a truely islamic government (non >captalization intentional) - > Humanity will become gardeners of paradise, what will be ment by an >islamic goverment is really, simply a transfiggured Earth. > I cannot imagine a state where a shaykh or murshid is head, or even mouth! >As my murshid once said when someone asked him if he were the head of the >spiritual order to which we belong he said, "No, I am the feet." >-A > ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:07:33 -0400 Subject: Re: Kaffea Lalla's question (was: pray for world peace etc.) Dear Lilly, you wrote passionatly of these questions: "A child who is raised in the midst of poverty and cruelty becomes a dangerous thug. Is the best response to..... Or is it important to look at .... who is responsible ...Is it enough to have love in our hearts and pray....Is it worthwhile to determine blame... to do so in order to stop the cycles of carelessness, greed and destruction?....... s it possible to take up such concerns while on a spiritual path? Is it possible not to?"<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< it seems from the depth and tenor of your questions that you are asking, what is Muhassibi (self examination) and how does one go about it and how does one suggest it as a healling attitude with which we can manage our affairs. Muhassibi is often like Christ on the cross, only some people see him as misirable, unhappy, and dieing yet i have seen a statue of a Christ who appears dancing on the cross, trasfigured. Ultimatley you seem to ask, how can we trasfiggure this Earth, our home. To begin to understand the depth of what Muhassibi means, which i can't say i do, would be to be able to understand how one can treat ones self with kindness and gentleness and happiness even while pounding in the nails yourself ... To understand Muhassibi as unrelenting truth which is tough yet kind, hard and soft, tears and gentle smiles, ..... this is something that your questions bring to mind to me ... - - Asha ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:53:08 EDT Subject: Lily's questions Hello dear Lily, >I am sorry that all I have are more questions. I am sorry that sometimes i think i have any answers! :) >A child who is raised in the midst of poverty and cruelty becomes a >dangerous thug. Is the best response to lock him up in prison, or is >it to lessen the gap between rich and poor, reduce unemployment and >implement gun control? The best response i've seen is love. Afterall, what is it we all seek? To know that we are loved? Where does cruelty begin? I don't believe that more 'laws' will fix anything in the long run. There are God's Laws... and those are written within our hearts... other than that, what /good/ are laws? Do they /change/ the way people feel, or the way people react, or the way people fear? Laws, in my opinion, do much to keep us from taking responsibility for ourselves. "It's okay. It's legal to so this." -- no need to seek to know what is truly 'right', or 'wrong' for myself.... or worse yet, "It's okay. I didn't get caught". Who can make laws that are morally 'correct' for all? >A pregnant woman arrives at the hospital and is made to lay down >during perhaps it's time (and i see this happening), for individuals to take responsibility for their own health. Not to say we do not use the services of health care professionals, but ultimately, the responsibility for my health is my own. >Is it enough to have love in our hearts and pray that everything sorts >itself out? I think, i believe it is all i /can/ do... do love God with my whole heart and to love my neighbor as myself. To have FAITH that, yes God will sort everything out... i do my small part... my thinking and acting in accordance with what i know to be 'right'. >Is it possible to take up such concerns while on a spiritual path? Is >it possible not to? thank you for your interesting thoughts, Lily. >peace and blessings to all ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 10:55:41 -0700 Subject: Lights out in America Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > and one wonders who really calls the shots ? EXACTLY! One problem is that the common man does not know. The tactic for controlling the US has been to create illusions and distractions. I.E., Why were the Black Panthers brought down by the FBI who cut a deal with the Mafia whereby the Mafia would dump massive amounts of drugs into the inner-city black areas to cause chaos. Shortly after that the number of drug addicts rose from 300,000 to 3 million in these areas. Who can have any faith in a government that dumped radiation on it own people (Chicago was it?) just to see how many cancers it would cause. (These are documented facts now acknowledged by our USA government, not conspiracy theories.) And now Mumia Jamil sits on death row, even thought all of the manufactured evidence used to convict him has been refuted. Could this be because he is a an ex-Panther and a journalist who did not toe the official government line, and somebody wants to shut him up? This country (USA) has always been a social experiment. But all that it has done is to drive the tyrants underground. At least with King George, you knew who was the source of injustice. > There is very little light in > Russia. But the lights are going out in America unless the people speak up > . Only a minority of Americans voted. Democracy is based on elections. But also a democracy requires an educated and informed people. When the media is controlled how can people make any choice. Also, without campaign reforms, only big money can get onto the ticket, so the choice is PUPPET A or PUPPET B. It would be better if nobody voted and that way it would be clear that nobody is believing illusion of democracy! > A > minority voted the President in. And the thing is this : It appears that no > President is ever elected unless the powers that be are aware of some > serious skeleton > in his cupboard to be used at appropriate times. Why is that so ? Because he is somebody's Puppet. > I am not a political analyst.So before answering the question which is not > answered let us look at the background behind the backgrounds .May God guide > us all. > May Allah have mercy on us all! - -Michael- PS. My apologies for having strayed so far afield from Sufism. If anybody is objecting, I will stop. We may note that many Sufis have been important political figures and at times have even run governments. Inshallah, the internet will be used as a tool to get the truth to the people. ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:10:13 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Atonement Salams Lily, God cannot be imagined in any form.But as Sh.Ibni Arabi known as Doctor Maximum in the Middle Ages said "woman is the best image of God even though God cannot be seen in material form" In the chapter entitled Women in the Quran , one verse states -and I try to remember the words - Revere God through Whom you demand your mutual rights and revere the wombs (raham ) that bore you" And to reinforce the concept of the alignment of God with the creative power through motherhood , we learn that the word Raham for womb comes from the Arabic Rahim meaning Infinite Mercy which is a name of Allah.A Hadis or saying of Prophet Muhammad whom we all love so dearly ,states -again I quote from memory God says " O women I have given you a name from my name Rahman and whosoever cherishes you , him I will cherish and whosover spurns you him I will spurn " Of course even the spurning comes within the Mercy of God because as Quran states "MY MERCY COVERS EVERYTHING" It is truly tragic that the religion which elevates the status of women to one even higher than men is twisted by people who dont understand their own religion.Muhammad was raised by several women when he was an orphan and it had a beautiful effect on him. For this reason partly he said "I love three things " Perfume , women and the coolness of the eyes in prayer " And only a deficient person who only projects his misunderstanding would think that he had vulgarity in mind. SalaLlah 'ala muhammad. At 12:24 9/5/96 -0700, you wrote: >Salaams Lily--- > >Who and where did you get the impression that we don't want to hear >about women -- I don't know about anyone elsein the group, but >speak on to your hearts content. I'm listening. > >Salaams to one and all > >Simon >============================================================ > >Lilyan Kay wrote: >> >> asalaam-u-aleikum >SNIP SNIP SNIP SNIP >> We have seen this described here, in fact - this deeper understanding of >> suffering. I have come to know this as a midwife watching women give >> birth. (oops, here I go again - sorry to bore those who don't want to >> hear about women). >SNIP SNIP SNIP >> peace and blessings to all >> >> Lily > > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 02:29:15 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Lights out in America Dearest Michael, thanks for your piece that I am reading late at night.God's Mercy comes down because of the weak among us , who are not noticed .I remember walking along S.Fiquero Street in Los Angeles last month ,and there were two whites sleeping on the road.One had a pram and beautiful white-furred dog in the pram.The eyes of the dog were shining with love a reflection of the white beggar , I suppose .There was a white lady several hundred yards away near the giant Westin Bonaventure.She approached to tell me that it was her birthday and she showed me her rotting teeth with her emaciated look.I have two babies she said whom my friends are taking care of.There was another white lady and I remember after emptying my pocket of all the coins and I asked her "Where are you rushing to?" and she said that she was of to McDonald .They were despite their difficulties nice to a stranger from Singapore .They were full of love.I dont care if they were not telling the truth or taking me for a ride.But they were full of love like the beggars near Ajmer shrine.Why must the Government cut down on the Welfare budget and waste billions destroying others ? And here you have the angels on the roads .With winter approaching ....perhaps Michael or someone could touch on the problem of evil in a world created by God.or RUMI comes to our rescue again on this issue. At 10:55 9/8/96 -0700, you wrote: >Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > >> and one wonders who really calls the shots ? > EXACTLY! One problem is that the common man does not know. The tactic >for controlling the US has been to create illusions and distractions. >I.E., Why were the Black Panthers brought down by the FBI who cut >a deal with the Mafia whereby the Mafia would dump massive amounts >of drugs into the inner-city black areas to cause chaos. Shortly after >that the number of drug addicts rose from 300,000 to 3 million >in these areas. Who can have any faith in a government that dumped >radiation on it own people (Chicago was it?) just to see how many >cancers it would cause. (These are documented facts now acknowledged >by our USA government, not conspiracy theories.) > And now Mumia Jamil sits on death row, even thought all of the >manufactured evidence used to convict him has been refuted. >Could this be because he is a an ex-Panther and a journalist >who did not toe the official government line, and somebody wants >to shut him up? > >This country (USA) has always been a social experiment. But all that >it has done is to drive the tyrants underground. At least with King >George, you knew who was the source of injustice. > >> There is very little light in >> Russia. But the lights are going out in America unless the people speak up >> . Only a minority of Americans voted. Democracy is based on elections. > >But also a democracy requires an educated and informed people. When the >media is controlled how can people make any choice. > >Also, without campaign reforms, only big money can get onto the ticket, >so the choice is PUPPET A or PUPPET B. It would be better if nobody >voted >and that way it would be clear that nobody is believing illusion of >democracy! > >> A >> minority voted the President in. And the thing is this : It appears that no >> President is ever elected unless the powers that be are aware of some >> serious skeleton >> in his cupboard to be used at appropriate times. Why is that so ? > >Because he is somebody's Puppet. > >> I am not a political analyst.So before answering the question which is not >> answered let us look at the background behind the backgrounds .May God guide >> us all. >> >May Allah have mercy on us all! > >-Michael- > >PS. My apologies for having strayed so far afield from Sufism. If >anybody >is objecting, I will stop. >We may note that many Sufis have been important political figures and at >times have even run governments. Inshallah, the internet will be used >as a tool to get the truth to the people. > ------------------------------ From: niztaev@bgumail.bgu.ac.il Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 21:30:44 +0300 Subject: curious question Dear frieds, I have a question. Does anybody know about Khodza Ahmad Yassawii (he was a one of the Sufi leaders in Central Asia, before Tamerlan emperia period)? I will very appreciate if someone will send me references about Sufism. Thanking and looking forward to hearing from you. Yours, Ali. ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 11:54:38 -0700 Subject: Love thy Neighbor Jacquie Weller wrote: > > I surrender my ideas about the Iraq and the USA being there. > Peace can only exist if people truly love their neighbor as > themselves. > Kaffea Lalla Who is our neighbor. Surely not everybody, otherwise Isa would have said "Love everybody". Gurdjieff and Ouspensky had some interesting things to say about who your neighbor is, and what it means to 'love you neighbor'. Do we think that Mohammad (saws) loved everybody? Perhaps he did, but if so, then this particular kind of love must not preclude war. If he did not love everybody then are we enjoined to do so? Lastly, is it really possible to love everybody as ourselves? I know that for me it is not. I am not even convinced that to do so is advisable. Salams, - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 12:36:42 +0100 Subject: Re: world hate America is my home. I see her as the land of the free. I hear all the criticism of her just like I hear the criticism of my neighbors. I see her strengths and her weakness, but I love her for she is my home. I will love the homes of others as well. God gave us our gifts to share with others. I am tired of those who suspect a snake in every present, though this has been true at times. But I think the real enemy is not outside of us, but the person inside of us who turns every positive idea into defeat, and takes faith and makes it into hopelessness, and turns innocence into lies. Who can get any job done in this country or anywhere without being suspect, slandered, and tied up with scurrilous labels before one begins. I have decided tv, newscasters, and people in general want to paint everything black, sour, and supicious. What bothers me most about Re: to World peace, is the amount of hate, labeling, suspicion, and lack of love I see, which is what tv seems to propagate. Could we envision more. Could we dare to care without being labeled. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Sun, 08 Sep 1996 12:46:18 -0700 Subject: Re: World Peace maarof wrote: > > Dear sister, > > I read Kabir Helminski's essays on Love (Threshold page) and I agree > with him that the problem in this world lies in how we fail to understand > love. > > IMO, the situation in middle east is not love for Love but love for power, > greed etc. I still don't see how American policy in middle east is really > related to love. > > salam > your brother Sometimes, a person or an entire country may do the right thing for the wrong reason. It is also true that there is rarely a single reason anyone does anything, especially a country. The US may be constraining Iraq to protect its oil interests and to maintain the balance of power (terror?) in the region, but there are also many other reasons, some of them humanitarian. A lot of people are involved in making that type of decision and each one brings his or her own reasons to the table. In propaganda, the decision makers on the "other side" are often cast as monsters who act with evil intent and unity of purpose, when, in reality, they are for the most part relatively ordinary human beings who struggle with their own moral contradictions, don't entirely agree with each other, and often believe they are acting in accord with some higher principle. I am not trying to justify, excuse, or apologize for any actions or decisions of the US government. I just want to point out that things are not as simple as we sometimes would like to think and I urge us all to be be open to the complexity, humanity, and capacity for love of our fellow human beings. Maybe even Saddam has a heart he has not yet revealed to us. OK, let's have a Love In. It will start with Saddam and George Bush exchanging hugs and kisses! ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 04:05:23 -0700 Subject: Re: World Peace Craig Johannsen wrote: > OK, let's have a Love In. It will start with Saddam and George > Bush exchanging hugs and kisses! It will be the MOTHER of all hugs and kisses! ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 04:34:44 -0700 Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor Salam to all mankind and jinns, Michael Moore wrote: > > Jacquie Weller wrote: > > > > I surrender my ideas about the Iraq and the USA being there. > > Peace can only exist if people truly love their neighbor as > > themselves. > > Kaffea Lalla > [...] > Do we think that Mohammad (saws) loved everybody? Perhaps he > did, but if so, then this particular kind of love must not > preclude war. If he did not love everybody then are we enjoined > to do so? I don't think we are able to grasp or imagine the love of Muhammad (saw) towards living creatures. I think there are sheikh or teachers, who by their presence alone can "transmit" this kind of love. When I read the Beautiful Names posted to the list, I feel awed and humble by the beauty/love in those Names. > Lastly, is it really possible to love everybody as ourselves? > I know that for me it is not. I am not even convinced that to > do so is advisable. Lets try to love ones closest to us first -- our mother and father. This taught me lot of things how to love others. > Salams, > -Michael- salam ------------------------------ From: Michael Roland Date: Sun, 8 Sep 1996 13:37:50 -0700 Subject: Re: The Black Stone (Hajar Aswad) || || | || o_,_7 _|| . _o_7 _|| 4_|_|| o_w_, ( : / (_) / ( . (Bismillahirrahmanirrahim) At 06:59 PM 9/7/96 +0700, Hudoyo wrote: > >Any explanation as to what is the significance of this sacred stone and >praying to this enshrined stone which constitutes an idol worship. Is it >not against Islamic and or Jewish beliefs? > Assalamu'alaykum, Dear Mr. Hudoyo, Thank you for raising the topic. The stone is only a stone. Nothing more. IMHO, the various stories of its origin is not important for us. (We can't prove which is right and which is wrong, since the Qur'an and the prophet (pbuh) never told any story about it). Moslems respect the stone just because the prophet (pbuh) respected it too. We kiss them on our pilgrimage there also because the prophet (pbuh) kissed it too. We trust our prophet. The prophet (pbuh) and all moslems pray (salaat) toward Kaaba not to worship the stone (or the Kaaba), nor do they think that Allah resides there. The Kaaba is only a mark for the place as the center of our faith. The Kaaba is only a symbol that moslems are actually one, and Kaaba is our real home. Even if the Kaaba is destroyed and the stone is gone, moslems will still pray toward there five times a day. When the stone was stolen by some people and was taken to another place a few centuries ago, moslems did not change the direction of salaat to the place where the stone was taken. And by circumambulating the Kaaba, moslems become one with the universe. Because everything in this universe, from the tiniest atom to the vast universe, all are revolving around their center. It's also the basic idea of Rumi's dancings, which was later ritualized by his dervishes. I would like to explain more, but I think maybe other brothers or sisters have better explanations. May Allah guide us all. Wassalamu'alaykum, your circumambulating brother, Michael Roland ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 07:32:25 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: The Black Stone (Hajar Aswad) Just as atoms and the planets are moving around in an anti-clockwise manner in deference or in obedience involuntarily to the Laws of God as enshrined in Nature , so too do the pilgrims as an act of unity with the rest of the universe do the tawaf in an anti-clockwise manner all the time praising and hyming the name of the Lord. At 13:37 9/8/96 -0700, you wrote: > || || | || > o_,_7 _|| . _o_7 _|| 4_|_|| o_w_, > ( : / (_) / ( . > > (Bismillahirrahmanirrahim) > > >At 06:59 PM 9/7/96 +0700, Hudoyo wrote: >> >>Any explanation as to what is the significance of this sacred stone and >>praying to this enshrined stone which constitutes an idol worship. Is it >>not against Islamic and or Jewish beliefs? >> > >Assalamu'alaykum, > >Dear Mr. Hudoyo, > >Thank you for raising the topic. > >The stone is only a stone. Nothing more. >IMHO, the various stories of its origin is not important for us. >(We can't prove which is right and which is wrong, since the Qur'an and the >prophet (pbuh) never told any story about it). >Moslems respect the stone just because the prophet (pbuh) respected it too. >We kiss them on our pilgrimage there also because the prophet (pbuh) kissed >it too. We trust our prophet. > >The prophet (pbuh) and all moslems pray (salaat) toward Kaaba not to worship >the stone (or the Kaaba), nor do they think that Allah resides there. > >The Kaaba is only a mark for the place as the center of our faith. >The Kaaba is only a symbol that moslems are actually one, and Kaaba is our >real home. > >Even if the Kaaba is destroyed and the stone is gone, moslems will still >pray toward there five times a day. >When the stone was stolen by some people and was taken to another place a >few centuries ago, moslems did not change the direction of salaat to the >place where the stone was taken. > >And by circumambulating the Kaaba, moslems become one with the universe. >Because everything in this universe, from the tiniest atom to the vast >universe, all are revolving around their center. >It's also the basic idea of Rumi's dancings, which was later ritualized by >his dervishes. > >I would like to explain more, but I think maybe other brothers or sisters >have better explanations. > >May Allah guide us all. > > >Wassalamu'alaykum, > >your circumambulating brother, > >Michael Roland > > > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #133 *****************************