From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:24:37 1996 Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 12:09:18 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #136 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 10 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 136 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 21:57:55 +0100 Subject: Yunus Emre So what can I tell you? You cannot become a dervish. A dervish needs a wounded heart and eyes full of tears. He needs to be as easy going as a sheep. You can't be a dervish. He must be without hands when someone hits him. He must be tongueless when cursed. A dervish needs to be without any desire. You can't be a dervish. Dervishood tells me, you cannot become a dervish So what can I tell you? You cannot become a dervish. A dervish needs a wounded heart and eyes full of tears. He needs to be as easy going as a sheep. You can't be a dervish. He must be without hands when someone hits him. He must be tongueless when cursed. A dervish needs to be without any desire. You can't be a dervish. A dervish needs to be without any desire. You can't be a dervish. You make a lot of sounds with your tongue, meaningful things. You get angry about this and that. You can't be a dervish If it were all right to be angry on this path, Muhammad himself would have gotten angry. Because of your anger, you can't be a dervish. Unless you find a real path, unless you find a guide, unless Truth grants you your portion, you can't be a dervish Therefore, dervish Yunus, come, dive into the ocean now and then. Unless you dive in the ocean, you cannot be a dervish The drink sent down from Truth, we drank it, glory be to God. And we sailed over the Ocean of Power, glory be to God. Beyond those hills and oak woods, beyond those vineyards and gardens, we passed in health and joy, glory be to God. We were dry, but we moistened, We grew wings and became birds, we married one another and flew, glory be to God. To whatever lands we came, in whatever hearts, in all humanity, we planted the meanings Taptuk taught us, glory be to God. Come here, let's make peace, let's not be strangers to one another. We have saddled the horse and trained it, glory be to God. We came down to the valley for winter, we did some good and some bad things. Now it's spring and we'll return, glory be to God. We became servants at Taptuk's door. Poor Yunus, raw and tasteless, finally got cooked, glory be to God. We became a trickle that grew into a river. We took flight and dove into the sea, and then we overflowed, glory be to God. Yunus Emre ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 09 Sep 1996 22:07:20 -0500 Subject: Re: If Steve H Rose wrote: > [snip] > This is kindof a pre-announcement for something that insh'Allah, I am > hoping to start shortly called The Garden. It is a "webring" and > associated discussion list for people interested in transforming the > Internet into a more peaceful, loving place, and using it as a tool, > insh'Allah, to help heal the planet. > [snip] I hadn't heard of a web ring before -- what a great idea! A ring of related web sites that you can walk around and www.webring.org will make sure that the links all work! They'll need financial support from those who can manage it. ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 13:42:13 +0800 Subject: Kara Kush You wrote: > Just thought a little clarification might be in order on that Kara >Kush post I put up earlier today. Perhaps not, but to my tired eyes... > According to Idries Shah (who probably needs no intro on this >list?), the Story of Kara Kush is taken from real life, people, places, >and events known to him. I was particularly interested in the way he >blends reportorial style and content, with modern "adventure" fiction, >and his more familiar Sufic style. The episode I posted seems very much >like one of the latter - but who knows? If these things didn't occur in >"real" life, they might not ring so many bells (allegorical and >otherwise), when we hear them. > Please forgive my often muddled, seemingly irrelevant posts. > > love, Aaron > >iceblink@teleport.COM Public Access User -- Not affiliated with Teleport >Public Access UNIX and Internet at (503) 220-1016 (2400-28800, N81) > I particularly like the way you retold about about a group of villagers trying to take the mighty Russian army with only swords, bows and arrows and copies of al-Quran. I've seen pictures of such groups, and the most interesting is an old man (probably posing to the camera) with headband "la ila ha ilallah" holding a shining sword in the right hand, and a copy of al-Quran on the left, facing the sun. I've been told there were many Malaysian and Indonesian volunteers (especially from sufi groups) fought in Afghanistan. The stories about them is similar to Selempang Merah (red sash) who used hypnotism and magick to confuse the Russians. The war in Chechnya is quite similar to Afghanistan, but the Chechens seemed more organised. The Russian army has more tanks but were easily trapped in battle of Grozny. Anyway, it is easy to win in war in Chechnya, but after the destruction of war, it is very hard to rebuild the country. salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Lilyan Kay Date: Mon, 9 Sep 1996 23:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: pray for world peace.... work for a transfiggured Earth On Sun, 8 Sep 1996, Zainuddin Ismail wrote: > There are no clergy in a theodemocracy.That is why it is not known as a > theocracy.Muhammad said that the leader of a people is their servant.This is > stressed in the meaning of the Maula which also means Leader and Servant > like we find further in the arabic term Mawali. asalaam-u-aleikum For the most eloquent and in-depth description of such a state, read Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib's (ra) advice to Malik Ashtar, the governer of Egypt. It can be found on the web at: http://www.hal-pc.org/~amana/ismaali.html Lily ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:00:28 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor The hadis quoted by Moore is very clearly a false one.Firstly it militates against every criteria of an acceptable hadis that we are aware of.Muhammad himself had said that it is forbidden to use fire / heat as a punishment.He even forbade cauterization by fire for medical purposes.And this branding of the eye with heated iron very clearly goes against his own command.I reject this hadis and so would all my friends who are familiar with the Seerat of Prophet Muhammad.It is just as bad as the Biblical parable where Jesus is reported to have said that one should pull out one's eye that offends or cut the hand that offends .Again I am communicating from memory.Again Muslims reject the story if taken literally where Jesus cursed a fig tree and on another ocassion send pigs possessed by the devils called "Legion" over the cliffs.It is just as bad as as the report that Jesus said "My father why has thou forsaken me" It is absolute impossible for a Holy Prophet like Jesus to have complained against God.If he had been on the cross, which Muslims dispute , he would have said with full conviction "Thy Will be done" The hadis quoted by Moore is extracted from a book of unedited hadis.This is the danger .Always revert to the unassailable , incontrovertible Quran when doubts cross your mind. I have more to say on this subject. Brother Moore, look into your heart and question why you brought up this clearly false hadis which no Muslim scholar worth his salt qould accept.Remember we are dealing with someone whom many believe to be the Beloved of God. I pray with all other believers here, that Allah our Lord, Cherisher,Nourisher and Sustainer will put solace into your wounded heart.Salam. At 11:44 9/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >Zainuddin Ismail wrote: >> >> Muhammad came as the Mercy unto all the Universe as such the essense of the >> Message of Islam is Love which is clearly discernible from the fact that the >> most common formula >> in the Quran is BismilahirRahmaanirRahmeem: In the name of Allah, (the Fount >> of all that is )Infinitely Merciful, Loving and Gracious.Here was a human >> being more modest than virgin hiding behind the curtain, the last to >> withdraw the hand from a handshake, the one with a smile always,whose >> laughter was never more than a lovely smile,who never said even "Uff" to his >> servant though the latter served him for years.And whose roughest language >> was "may his forehead be dusted" which he said to a person who wanted to >> kill him , who starved so that the poor could eat, who married a toothless >> woman past menopause with several childen , whose deeds not for one or two >> years but for 63 years was a testimony of an Ocean of Divine Love.Like his >> brother Prophet Jesus who came several hundred years ago , he was a >> manifestation of Divine Love.It is the search for this vacuum of not knowing >> Divine Love which is the unconscious drive behind all human beings.SalaLLAH >> 'ALAIHI WASSALAM.Your indulgence dear brothers and sisters. > >Dear Zainuddin, >You are not the only person to have this understanding of the prophet. >The problem >I have is in reconciling this view against the hadiths of the prophet. >For >example: > Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794: > > Narrated Anas: > > Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet > and embraced Islam. The climate of > Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered > them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of > charity and to drink, their milk and urine > (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had > recovered from their ailment (became healthy) > they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and > killed the shepherd of the camels and took the > camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in > their pursuit and so they were (caught and) > brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands > and legs should be cut off and that their eyes > should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and > that their cut hands and legs should not be > cauterized, till they die. > > >see http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/hadith/bukhari/082.htm > >I would love nothing more than for you to tell me that every hadith >where >Mohammad(saws) is portrayed as violent and cruel is a lie and that he >never did that. I really have a difficult time seeing love in this >hadith. > >-Michael- > ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 22:45:41 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: caffeine Every food item is from the ancient Medical point of view either having hot or cold effect, dry or wet effect and all the effects are up to a maximum of 4 degrees.From this point of view coffee is hot and wet up to two degrees each.In other words the effect of its heat and wetness lasts in our body for as much as one or at most two hours.Coffee can be used as a medicine but it can be addictive.Both Dr Aman of Indo American Hospital and Dr.Ahmad Sakr advised against its consumption.Coffee is not haram or halal.It depends on how one uses it. At 13:47 9/10/96 +1000, you wrote: > >Assalamu alaikum, > >Thanks for all your replies regarding caffeine.... > >On Mon, 9 Sep 1996, Erik S. Ohlander wrote: > >> as salamu 'alaykum- >> >> Here are some textual refs. about it and its associates: >> >> 1) "Coffee is a corrective for dysentery, relieves thirst, and is said to >> produce wisdom. It should be used sparingly" Shaykh Hakim Muinuddin Chishti >> 'The Book of Sufi Healing' p.57. >> >> 2) "Just as any beverage that intoxicates when taken in large quanities is >> also unlawful (haram) in small quantities" (speaking of non-alcoholic >> beverages) al-Misri "Reliance of the Traveller" p.618. >> >> 3) "The best advice to be given to the consumers is to use herbs as >> subsitutes of coffee and tea" A.H. Sakr "A Muslim Guide to Food >> Ingredients" p. 97. >> >> 4) According to Syed Rasheeduddin Ahmad ("A Comprehensive List of Halal >> Food Products in Us Supermarkets") coffee and tea are halal (pp.34-35). >> >> It would seem that we need to apply ijtihad to our own situations (?)- > >It seems the opinions Erik cites (and others) are wide and varying, and >even opposing. > >I had been taking guarana tablets for the past month or so, not realizing >that they were high in caffeine (they are, from other reading I have >done, in fact a caffeine alternative to coffee beans). Guarana beverages >are, by the way, widely drunk in Brazil. > >I had been told that they had a helpful affect on breathing - I am an >asthmatic. This makes sense to me now, because to my understanding any >kind of caffeine can have a bronchial dilation effect (opens up the >passages in the lungs). However, I was led to believe (wrongly, I >think), that guarana had a low caffeine content. > >I found, taking all this guarana, that I did have more energy, but also I >didn't think as clearly as before. My behaviour in some instances seemed >to change, perhaps also because I was sleeping less, and some of the >behaviour changes may have been from insufficient sleep (even though I >didn't feel sleepy). > >Anyhow, that was the context of the question. I've stopped taking the >tablets now, and am just getting over the withdrawal symptoms (eg. high >nervousness). I am throwing the rest of my unused tables away (I already >know I have a bad reaction to caffeine, and mostly avoid caffeinated >beverages). > >Thanks for all the info, > >Wassalam, > >Fariduddien > > > ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 07:48:20 -0700 Subject: Re: 63 Earth Years maarof wrote: > >Was wondering, the 63 years, is that the earthly life span of Muhammad? > > > >I was compelled to determine the age of Jesus' at his death about a year > >ago and used High Self (intuition, heart) as a guide to obtaining the > >information. The answer: 63 earth years. Now I took that at face value > >until I realized that was my present age. Then you come with that same > >age for Muhammad! Wow, do we believe in fate or not? > > > >We are all manifestations of divine love! Since all is God how can there > >be something that is not divine? > > can you explain further how you get the age 63 for Jesus (as)? > Muhammad's age of 63 years is the common accpeted figure by Muslims. > The image of Jesus as about 40 year old man on the cross, somehow > changed when you give the figure of 63. Bismillah ar-Rahman ir-Rahim Hello, maarof! Well, these are my beliefs, maarof, backed-up by intuition. Jesus didn't die on the cross, lived to be an "older" man, to the age of 63 by my "reckoning", the same age accepted for that of Muhammad's age at physical death, the same age that I was when the inspiration came to me. Through spirit and mind all the past is at hand... a human consists of many levels of consciousness (many mansions in Creator's house)... within the subconscious mind (instinctive mind) there lodges all the past experiences of the soul, and individual soul is a "fragment" of The Soul (Allah, Creator). maarof, there are more things in heaven and earth than can be put into words. Understand, know High Self (intuition, heart) as aspect of inner planes, collective High Selves as Spirit of Guidance, and then "see" evolution at work, all under laws laid down by Allah (Absolute) as part of the create, as part of the universe. al-Hamdu'lillah Now, let's talk about poetry, divinity, tanzen ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:17:10 +0800 Subject: Disputed hadith Assalamualaikum I have read about the hadith mentioned by Michael but it was only reported about the first part, when the Prophet advised the sick people from tribe of Urainah to take milk and urine from charity/zakat camels as medicine. It was reported in Sahih At-Tarmizi, and it is harus or allowed to use dirty things such as camel urine as medicine. From the hadis, Imam Malik, Ahmad and Ibn Huzaimah and others deduced by qias that meat and the body fluids (in that meat) from halal animal is clean to eat. salam maarof On Tue, 10 Sep 1996, Zainuddin Ismail wrote: >The hadis quoted by Moore is very clearly a false one.Firstly it militates >against every criteria of an acceptable hadis that we are aware of.Muhammad >himself had said that it is forbidden to use fire / heat as a punishment.He >even forbade cauterization by fire for medical purposes.And this branding of >the eye with heated iron very clearly goes against his own command.I reject >this hadis and so would all my friends who are familiar with the Seerat of >Prophet Muhammad.It is just as bad as the Biblical parable where Jesus is >reported to have said that one should pull out one's eye that offends or cut >the hand that offends .Again I am communicating from memory.Again Muslims >reject the story if taken literally where Jesus cursed a fig tree and on >another ocassion send pigs possessed by the devils called "Legion" over the >cliffs.It is just as bad as as the report that Jesus said "My father why has >thou forsaken me" It is absolute impossible for a Holy Prophet like Jesus to >have complained against God.If he had been on the cross, which Muslims >dispute , he would have said with full conviction "Thy Will be done" >The hadis quoted by Moore is extracted from a book of unedited hadis.This is >the danger .Always revert to the unassailable , incontrovertible Quran when >doubts cross your mind. >I have more to say on this subject. Brother Moore, look into your heart and >question why you brought up this clearly false hadis which no Muslim scholar >worth his salt qould accept.Remember we are dealing with someone whom many >believe to be the Beloved of God. >I pray with all other believers here, that Allah our Lord, >Cherisher,Nourisher and Sustainer will put solace into your wounded heart.Salam. > >> Volume 8, Book 82, Number 794: >> >> Narrated Anas: >> >> Some people from the tribe of 'Ukl came to the Prophet >> and embraced Islam. The climate of >> Medina did not suit them, so the Prophet ordered >> them to go to the (herd of milch) camels of >> charity and to drink, their milk and urine >> (as a medicine). They did so, and after they had >> recovered from their ailment (became healthy) >> they turned renegades (reverted from Islam) and >> killed the shepherd of the camels and took the >> camels away. The Prophet sent (some people) in >> their pursuit and so they were (caught and) >> brought, and the Prophets ordered that their hands >> and legs should be cut off and that their eyes >> should be branded with heated pieces of iron, and >> that their cut hands and legs should not be >> cauterized, till they die. >> >> >>see http://www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/hadith/bukhari/082.htm >> ------------------------------ From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:26:39 EDT Subject: Re: Love thy Neighbor Dear Zainuddin, Michael, and All, >.I reject this hadis and so would all my friends who are familiar with the Seerat of >Prophet Muhammad. This brings up an interesting point. I do not know enough (next to nothing!) about Islam to have an opinion on any of this, but it seems there will always be things to argue about, there will always be 'facts' to dispute, in any religious texts. It's not that the Prophets were wrong... just that we (humankind) misinterpret, misunderstand, or even just see things from a totally different perspective. And i do not understand Arabic... (or Sanskrit, or Aramaic, or Hebrew, etc.) What does the Qur'an say about truth being that which can be discerned from within? Someone here recently spoke of Ijtihad... this refers to that not covered in the Qur'an? (sorry, i do not have those posts anymore). In the Bible the LORD reportedly says through the prophets, "I will give you a new heart and place a new spirit within you", and elsewhere, "I will place my law within them, and write it upon their hearts..". And in the New Testament, Jesus is reported to have said, "I use parables when I speak to them because they look but do not see, they listen but do not hear or understand..", and the often quoted, "The Kingdom of God is within." There are many more references to God within, the Light within, etc. But more important to me, is what this brings to my life... "And so he went on and said, How that Christ was the Light of the world and lighteth every man that cometh into the world; and that by this Light they might be gathered to God, etc. And I stood up in my pew, and I wondered at his doctrine, for I had never heard such before. And then he went on, and opened the Scriptures, and said, 'The Scriptures were the prophets' words and Christ's and the apostles' words, and what as they spoke they enjoyed and possessed and had it from the Lord.' And said, 'Then what had any to do with the Scriptures, but as they came to the Spirit that gave them forth. You will say, Christ saith this, and the apostles say this, but what canst thou say?' ... This opened me so that it cut me to the heart... And I cried in my spirit to the Lord, 'We are all thieves, we have taken the Scriptures in words and know nothing of them in ourselves.'" - --Margaret Fell , 1652 in peace... carol ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 23:35:23 +0800 Subject: Re: 63 Earth Years > >Bismillah ar-Rahman ir-Rahim > >Hello, maarof! > >Well, these are my beliefs, maarof, backed-up by intuition. Jesus didn't >die on the cross, lived to be an "older" man, to the age of 63 by my >"reckoning", the same age accepted for that of Muhammad's age at >physical death, the same age that I was when the inspiration came to me. > >Through spirit and mind all the past is at hand... a human consists of >many levels of consciousness (many mansions in Creator's house)... >within the subconscious mind (instinctive mind) there lodges all the >past experiences of the soul, and individual soul is a "fragment" of The >Soul (Allah, Creator). > >maarof, there are more things in heaven and earth than can be put into >words. > >Understand, know High Self (intuition, heart) as aspect of inner planes, >collective High Selves as Spirit of Guidance, and then "see" evolution >at work, all under laws laid down by Allah (Absolute) as part of the >create, as part of the universe. > >al-Hamdu'lillah > >Now, let's talk about poetry, divinity, > >tanzen Assalamualaikum, Someone give me a koan today: How to break a stone with a raw egg. He said he get the answer after years and years of thinking about it. Maybe, if i live to 63, i'll get the answer to your riddle, tanzen. ok... back to poetry of stone-egg koan. Is the answer: Life is stronger? salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Gale Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 08:34:39 -0700 Subject: Re. love thy neighbor Brother Zainuddin wrote: > It is just as bad as as the report that Jesus said "My father why has = thou forsaken=20 > me" It is absolute impossible for a Holy Prophet like Jesus to have = complained=20 > against God.If he had been on the cross, which Muslims dispute , he = would have=20 > said with full conviction "Thy Will be done" For me this has been one of the most confusing sayings of Jesus to find = meaning in. I learned from an Indian scholar friend and Sufi, who was = doing research with a Moroccan rabbi, Dahan Levi, that the Hebrew *Eli, = Eli (or Elo-i) lama sabachthani* which has been translated as = *Lord/Father, why has thou foresaken me?* (a reference to Psalm 22) if = read as *lamah shavahhtani* would mean *God/Lord, how thou has glorified = me?* Or, if it was *limah* instead of *lamah* then it would be *has not = foresaken me* Can any of the sisters or brothers on the list who know = Hebrew confirm these renderings? Sorry, my spellings may be off. Blessings,=20 Nur ------------------------------ From: gmtn@mail.comet.net (Green Mountain School) Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:46:20 -0500 Subject: querry sura and 'ayah number >to all, >I have found a reference to the Qur'an, of a verse describing the righteous >in hell, and it is understood to suggest that the righteous are willing to go >even into the worst of situations in acting from great tenderness, love, and >compassion. >Does anyone know the verse(s) that this might be about? >thank you. >in peace, >Jinavamsa salaam, please send references of sura name or number and ayah number to understand yr. question. wa salaam A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: ASHA101@aol.com Date: Tue, 10 Sep 1996 11:47:29 -0400 Subject: induction and deduction in studying a hadith >>> I do not know enough ....to have an opinion .... but it seems there will always be things to argue about,<<< True enough. My Murshid once said, that if there is something in his teaching that you disagree with, then just forget it. It is a simple and humble approach on his part, but a wise approach on my part. Of course, it is not to close my eyes is evil, but one the whole my inner sense does not tell me the Quran is evil, so if there is something that goes past me i might spend time to discover, but no time is needed to argue something like being for or against the afore mentioned hadith. Nur might think that i am agruing agaist intellectual persuit but i doubt it. I thing even a good intellectual takes this approach. A good intellectual approach begins in seeing the whole, which is beautiful, and then works with all the difficulties within that whole untill something more beautiful is revealed. A poor intellectual approach is to work with details outside of an intuition. Such detail work is the craft of scholars, and wise craftspersons allways follow the intuition of the artist, wehter the artist in themsleves or an artist they trust. So, to follow my Murshid's advise is not to ignore difficult passages but it is to remember to follow the intuition of beauty and not get off track. - - A ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Wed, 11 Sep 1996 00:08:49 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Re. love thy neighbor This reminds me about the reported or misreported saying of Jesus in the Bible that it would be as difficult for a rich man to enter heaven as a camel to go through the eye of the needle.Actually from what I learn from Muhammad Asad's Tafsir this should actually be "It is as difficult for a rich man to enter heaven as a rope to enter into the eye of a needle" In the Arabic jamal means camel and jummal means rope.Probably the same thing happened to the language which Jesus alaihisalam used. At 08:34 9/10/96 -0700, you wrote: >Brother Zainuddin wrote: > >> It is just as bad as as the report that Jesus said "My father why has thou forsaken >> me" It is absolute impossible for a Holy Prophet like Jesus to have complained >> against God.If he had been on the cross, which Muslims dispute , he would have >> said with full conviction "Thy Will be done" > >For me this has been one of the most confusing sayings of Jesus to find meaning in. I learned from an Indian scholar friend and Sufi, who was doing research with a Moroccan rabbi, Dahan Levi, that the Hebrew *Eli, Eli (or Elo-i) lama sabachthani* which has been translated as *Lord/Father, why has thou foresaken me?* (a reference to Psalm 22) if read as *lamah shavahhtani* would mean *God/Lord, how thou has glorified me?* Or, if it was *limah* instead of *lamah* then it would be *has not foresaken me* Can any of the sisters or brothers on the list who know Hebrew confirm these renderings? Sorry, my spellings may be off. > >Blessings, > >Nur > > ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #136 *****************************