From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Wed Sep 18 14:30:24 1996 Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 10:13:19 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #144 tariqas-digest Tuesday, 17 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 144 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: woodsong@juno.com (Carol Woodsong) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 12:38:05 EDT Subject: Ooga Booga Hello friends! Some recent posts have reminded me of a song i really like. The group is band from Dallas Texas, Ooga Booga. That's what they call themselves. :) I'd say the music is... well, difficult to define :) ... but rather 'folk', with lots of earthy sounds, bongos, wooden flutes, etc. The song, is called /Loneliness/... Feelin' love now (repeated... ) >From the terrace above the city of love I stood watching in a trance, As two-by-two, filled the avenue As their joy turned to dance. Lonliness-- is a feeling you can share with someone. Late at night the lonely soul so lingers For it needs the time to pray. Forevermore the circle is unbroken For it cries with souls that say Lonliness-- is a feeling you can share with someone. There is no separation, no time, no distance, And everyday we are the one. With one another. let us feel the love, And know that truly we are never, ever ever left alone. ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:03:31 +0100 Subject: [none] Woodsong quotes song: snip, snip, partial quote Lonliness-- is a feeling you can share with someone. >>often when I'm lonely, I do not share with others because of my fear >>and admitting my vulnerability and lack of trust, I hide behind a >>a mask, sometimes, or often. There is no separation, no time, no distance, And everyday we are the one. With one another. let us feel the love, And know that truly we are never, ever ever left alone. >> This is a real comfort to me, recognizing each other and sharing. >> It helps take away the feeling of isolation. >> Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: maarof Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 03:31:41 +0800 Subject: Re: ignorant question... On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, padenski@juno.com (Ruthie Roberts) wrote: >>maarof wrote: >> >>> Of course there are capable people in this group. Most are >>observers, >>> and have seen the questions and the answers before. Some are too >>lazy >>> to give their interpretation of issues. > >As'salam Aleikum, > > i have always been taught that an ignorant question, is one that has >never been asked. And if you can not give an intelligent answer, then >there isn't any reason to respond to a person's question. > > i don't believe that it is a matter of laziness that a person doesn't >respond to questions or issues, but more out of respect because maybe >they don't have the proper answers, or they may feel intimidated by >their own lack of knowledge and/or experience. > > Personally, i have only been a murid of the Qadiri Rifa'i Order for a >very short time, so i feel inadequate to respond to the various issues >brought up in this forum. i have 'lurked in the shadows' for a year and >a half in hopes of learning from all of you....and i admit, i am also >overly shy which is another reason for my reluctance in posting my >views. > > For me, it isn't 'laziness', or that i even feel capable of replying, >it is just that i am a shy and quiet person who knows that there is >someone else out there that is more qualified than me to give an >appropiate answer. > > With that said, please excuse me while i step back into the >shadows.......... > >Peace and Blessings, >Ruthie > >padenski@juno.com > > Waalaikum salam, Alhamdulillah. Thanks for your answer (and also Rabia Kathleen) for my ignorant assumption. It might be a coincidence (or might be intuition) but i DO expect a response from you, and the person to answer this question: What is the connection between sufism and native american spiritualism? Why are you attracted to sufism, is it because of your native american background? salam maarof ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:24:06 -0700 Subject: Re: ignorant question... Steve H Rose wrote: > > Assalamu alaikum. > > On Sat, 14 Sep 1996, Carol Woodsong wrote: > > [snip] I was thinking that Sufis believed that > > one must find one's own 'answers'.... am i wrong? > > [snip] > Sooooo, you will find Sufis that believe that one must find one's own > answers, as well as Sufis that believe that the answers are laid out in > the Holy Qu'ran, as well as the life of the Prophet (may peace be upon > him). What appears to be a contradiction may in fact be a contradiction, > or may be differences that are unimportant, or may (in many cases) be > differences in TEACHING styles used by different Sufis in different times > as needed to reach different audiences. > [snip] Thanks for clarifying this, Habib. I now understand better why there are so many followers of the Sufi path who rely a great deal on authority. As with Carol, this didn't fit well with what I thought I knew about Sufism. Your reply suggests that it is up to the individual teacher, but I wonder are there particular Sufi schools that rely more on authority than others? Is there a notable difference between the Shiite and Sunni flavors of Islam with respect to the importance of authority? This issue is one of the main differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. Catholicism relies more on authority (e.g., statements of present and past Popes), while Protestantism teaches that each individual should establish his own relationship with God and discover truth through this relationship (a la Martin Luther). ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 14:00:07 -0700 Subject: Transliteration/translation Hello friends, Currently, I am trying to memorize some suras and duas as they are required by salaat. But I have a problem. I can memorize the words and I can memorize the meaning, but it is difficult to match the words to the meaning. For example, in the Surah fatiha there is the transliteration "Maa-liki you-mid-deen" The translation given is "King of judgement day" (Aside: this is a poor translation choosen to illustrate my point.") I've been told that youm is like 'day' and deen is 'religion'. So, you can see the problem; the transliteration takes the liberty of reversing the words day and religion. What I would like is a "near as possible word-for-word" translation. Even if the english comes out sounding wrong, that would be much better than perfect English that cannot be corrolated with the Arabic! I have studied Arabic a little, so I know that this is problematic but I think it could be done. For example, I would translate Allahu Akbar as, God-he great/awesome Not good English, but with this, when I say 'Allahu Akbar', the meaning is there. Each word is alive rather just a collection of syllables that somehow means 'God is great'. Imagine if I could say the surah fatiha and have meaning in each word as I was saying it, rather than saying it and posthumously retrofitting it with meaning. Does anybody know of such translations? - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Asim Jalis Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 16:48:46 CDT Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation You can always get an Arabic to English dictionary. Asim ------------------------------ From: "Michael J. Moore" Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 15:24:06 -0700 Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Asim Jalis wrote: > > You can always get an Arabic to English dictionary. > > Asim Yes, that would be a good idea. It is still difficult because sometimes one word has more than one meaning. Surely somebody has already done such a translation and I am a firm believer in not re-inventing the wheel. Thanks! :-) - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: "Abbas B. Talib" Date: Tue, 17 Sep 96 07:00:55 +800 Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation I agree that many words in the translation into English is not correct. Having been brought up to learn the Arabic language I agree with you that Yaum Id Deen means the day of the religion not the day of judgement. I have read several translations by Pickthal and Yussuf Ali where the translations differ. The only way to appreciate the Quran or Koran spelt differently in the English language one needs to be a scholar of Arabic and appreciate the meaning of the language in its original language. In this way you get the essence of the exact meaning, because classical Arabic is a very exacting and precise language and can only be fully appreciated if you can understand the grammar and useage of every word describing every salient features which the English language does not have. In terms of literature and poetry Classical Arabic language is very expressive of the various moods and temperament of the author or shall I say the person communicating the message. To communicate the correct translation would mean a lot more time devoted to the translation. Abbas ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Transliteration/translation Author: tariqas@facteur.std.com at INTERNET Date: 17/9/96 5:25 AM Hello friends, Currently, I am trying to memorize some suras and duas as they are required by salaat. But I have a problem. I can memorize the words and I can memorize the meaning, but it is difficult to match the words to the meaning. For example, in the Surah fatiha there is the transliteration "Maa-liki you-mid-deen" The translation given is "King of judgement day" (Aside: this is a poor translation choosen to illustrate my point.") I've been told that youm is like 'day' and deen is 'religion'. So, you can see the problem; the transliteration takes the liberty of reversing the words day and religion. What I would like is a "near as possible word-for-word" translation. Even if the english comes out sounding wrong, that would be much better than perfect English that cannot be corrolated with the Arabic! I have studied Arabic a little, so I know that this is problematic but I think it could be done. For example, I would translate Allahu Akbar as, God-he great/awesome Not good English, but with this, when I say 'Allahu Akbar', the meaning is there. Each word is alive rather just a collection of syllables that somehow means 'God is great'. Imagine if I could say the surah fatiha and have meaning in each word as I was saying it, rather than saying it and posthumously retrofitting it with meaning. Does anybody know of such translations? - -- Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Rabia Kathleen Seidel Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 19:37:59 -0400 Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Hello friends, > > What I would like is a "near as possible word-for-word" > translation. Even if the english comes out sounding wrong, > that would be much better than perfect English that cannot > be corrolated with the Arabic! > Salaam aleikum! Dear Michael, I know just what you mean. I have searched high and low and have never found anything like what you want -- a translation that illustrates all of the steps taken in the translation process. You may want to consider working with your transliteration side-by-side with the Muhammad Asad translation, The Message of the Qur'an. In his footnotes, Asad goes into great detail about the meaning of specific words in Arabic, and his reasons for choosing the English words that represent them. His interpretations are exhaustive, detailing the meaning of passages linguistically, within the context of the entire Qur'an, and within their historical context. This translation has been my gateway to the Qur'an. It is available in the US from Threshold Books (). You can preview it at the UCSC, USF, Stanford, and Graduate Theological Union libraries. Even more, it sounds like you need a good Qur'anic Arabic teacher, and several dictionaries so you can compare translations from one to the other. I did a search and found a number of textbooks that focus specifically on Qur'anic Arabic: Thackston, WM, Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic (1994) (available from Pak Books ) (Thackston is a professor of Middle Eastern languages at Harvard; his book is widely used in college courses, and was highly recommended by a friend's Arabic teacher at Bard College.) Nadwi, Abd Allah Abbas, Learn the language of the Holy Qur'an (Chicago: Iqra, 1987) Hassanuddin Ahmed, An Easy Way of Understand-ing the Qur'an (both available from ) I also found entries, but no availability information, for: Farrukh, Umar, Qur'anic Arabic: the language of the Qur'an (Lahore, Kazi, 1977) Haque, M. Shamsal, Arabic Qaidah: rhythmic methods of learning Qur'anic Arabic (Silver Springs: Namuk, 1992) Sieny, Mahmoud Esmail, Qur'anic Arabic (Washington DC: Islamic Center, 1978) Quran made easy (Karachi/Lahore, 1968; at the UCBerkeley library) There is an online Dictionary of Qur'anic Arabic on the very slow NCSU gopher: An interesting edition of Rumi, Rending the Veil: Literal and Poetic Translations of Rumi, by Shahram T. Shiva (Hohm Press, 1995), addresses the problem of translation by offering on each page the original Farsi; a transliteration; a literal translation (of the kind you seek); and a poetic translation of 252 of Mevlana's quatrains. A number of the quatrains have been translated by others, also; it's an interesting exercise to put them side by side to see how much variance there is, and how much of the translator's individuality appears to come through the translations. I wish someone would translate the Qur'an in this way. Good luck, and _please_ let me know if you find anything satisfactory! Ashk olsun -- Let it become love! Rabia ------------------------------ From: Craig Johannsen Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:39:43 -0700 Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Asim Jalis wrote: > > > > You can always get an Arabic to English dictionary. > > > > Asim > Yes, that would be a good idea. It is still difficult because > sometimes one word has more than one meaning. Surely > somebody has already done such a translation and I am a firm > believer in not re-inventing the wheel. > Thanks! :-) > -- > Michael J. Moore As I understand it, it is often the case that several of the possible meanings are simultaneously relevant. The meanings tend to be grouped into a family of closely related words based upon the triliteral root. Sometimes, the alternative meaning is a play on the sound of the word such that it suggests another word with possibly a different root. All such alternative meanings would be lost in any English translation, I would think. ------------------------------ From: gmtn@mail.comet.net (Green Mountain School) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 21:48:30 -0500 Subject: translation and transliteration as-salaamu 'alaykum, the best arabic to english dictionary is the transalation of hans wehr's "a dictionary of modern written arabic" which is arranged by {mainly} tri-lateral roots {and you needn't be put off by the word 'modern' because the roots are unchangeable tho the more than 126 forms that derive from the are flexible}. to complement this you need "a concordance of the qur'an" by kassis and published by the univ. of california. you will find it is also arranged by the same roots , the fa'ala or third person singular past. this concordance contains every translated word that appears in the yusuf ali, marmaduke pickthall, muhammad 'assad and arberry translation and then gives then gives the transliterated root in roman characters. as in KTB which means 'he wrote' but is the root on which all word dealing with books, writing, recording of words {up to 'modern' invenetions like the 'dictograph' etc}. once you you know the root then all you have to do is learn the various prefixes and suffixes, voice and gender changes etc. but once you know the root you home free cuz everything having to do with KTB only has to do with the dimension of writing. there are some 1,400 such tri-lateral roots in the body of the Qur'an plus there are a few quadrilaterateral and even some five fold roots but these are quite the exception {i cannot emphasize this enuf} and are usually derived from persian or other older eastern languages. roots, roots, roots and more roots is the way to proficency in understanding. know the roots and learn the changes. it is a vast ocean of meaning with many subtle shfifts, nuances and illuminations but in the end it always comes back down to the roots. if you want even further amplification get lane's 'lexicon' which is again arranged by roots and gives an example of the word {in mostly all of its 12 main transmutations} as it was used in pre-Qur'anic poetry {jahalliyah poetry}, then the word as used in the Qur'an, then the hadith, then the wisdom sayings and under it all what the bedu use the word to mean. this gives great depth and width to understanding. for instance the word "deen' as in maliki yawmi-d-deen. deen is usually translated as 'religion' but that is not really correct for so many different reasons. but religion is a latin word meaning to tie things together as in tying man {or woman} to god or as the tying together of a society or culture by certain common shared moral, religious and spiritual understandings and cosmology etc. but in arabic the woord deen is derived from the root 'dana' which means {more or less} 'he was in debt' or 'he contractred a debt'. from this we can then begin to understand that what the deen is has very much to do with the debt we have with Allah. the price of life you might say. this opens quite other levels of understanding than tieing the arabic word to a latin word etc. it is also important to understand that the greatest explanation of the Qur'an is the Qur'an. the real thing tho is the striving or searching for meaning that rises out of our seeking to understand what Allah means {and what Allah wants from us} and in this arabic {as is true with the other semitic languages which serve as vehicles for revelation such as aramaic, syriac, hebrew etc} renders such subtle meaning that you can actually begin to 'smell' meaning and follow it down thru deeping levels not as some obscure linguistic word play but as the attempt to understand what is absolutely vital to your own meaning as a human in relation with the Supreme Being. wa-llaahu 'alim, wa salaam A. N. Durkee Green Mountain ------------------------------ From: padenski@juno.com (Ruthie Roberts) Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 18:57:45 PST Subject: Re: ignorant question... As'salam maarof, i am amazed by your intuition! :) It is true that part of my heritage is native american, albeit, a very small part, but one that i take pride in...none-the-less. i will try and answer your questions to the best of my limited knowledge. :) On Tue, 17 Sep 1996 03:31:41 +0800 maarof writes: >> >Waalaikum salam, > >Alhamdulillah. Thanks for your answer (and also Rabia Kathleen) for my >ignorant assumption. It might be a coincidence (or might be intuition) >but i DO expect a response from you, and the person to answer >this question: What is the connection between sufism and native >american >spiritualism? Similar to sufism, the native american believes that the Supreme Being resides in all things, that the soul is free to make choices and choose their own path, and that a person's relationship with the Supreme Being is a very personal and private thing. Why are you attracted to sufism, is it because of your >native american background? Sufism attracted me because of its beauty in worship, the freedom i feel when i perform my worship to Allah, and the love i feel that surrounds me when i meditate on Allah's attributes. Yes, you could say that my heritage has found harmony in Sufism, and the path that will eventually lead me to my Beloved. Spiritually speaking...have we met before? ;) > >salam >maarof Blessings, Ruthie padenski@juno.com ------------------------------ From: Zainuddin Ismail Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:44:42 +0800 (SGT) Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation Salams.While on the subject of Quranic Arabic , can we also discuss the view that just as Makkah ,actually the Bacca of the Psalms of the Bible , is the Mother of the Cities -Ummul Qura- so also Arabic is the Mother of all languages.Many important studies have been made on this topic.Unfortunately my books on this subject were borrowed by a friend who has yet to return them. By the way I found the transliteration which goes along with the Quran and Yusuf Ali's English translation and interpretaion , in one volume , unhelpful from the tajwid point of view.Tajwid is the science of correct Quranic pronounciation. At 07:00 9/17/96 +800, you wrote: > I agree that many words in the translation into English is not > correct. Having been brought up to learn the Arabic language I agree > with you that Yaum Id Deen means the day of the religion not the day > of judgement. I have read several translations by Pickthal and Yussuf > Ali where the translations differ. The only way to appreciate the > Quran or Koran spelt differently in the English language one needs to > be a scholar of Arabic and appreciate the meaning of the language in > its original language. In this way you get the essence of the exact > meaning, because classical Arabic is a very exacting and precise > language and can only be fully appreciated if you can understand the > grammar and useage of every word describing every salient features > which the English language does not have. In terms of literature and > poetry Classical Arabic language is very expressive of the various > moods and temperament of the author or shall I say the person > communicating the message. To communicate the correct translation > would mean a lot more time devoted to the translation. > > Abbas > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Transliteration/translation >Author: tariqas@facteur.std.com at INTERNET >Date: 17/9/96 5:25 AM > > >Hello friends, > >Currently, I am trying to memorize some suras and duas as they are >required by salaat. But I have a problem. I can memorize the words >and I can memorize the meaning, but it is difficult to match >the words to the meaning. >For example, in the Surah fatiha there is the transliteration > "Maa-liki you-mid-deen" >The translation given is > "King of judgement day" (Aside: this is a poor translation > choosen to illustrate my point.") > >I've been told that youm is like 'day' and deen is 'religion'. > >So, you can see the problem; the transliteration takes the >liberty of reversing the words day and religion. > >What I would like is a "near as possible word-for-word" >translation. Even if the english comes out sounding wrong, >that would be much better than perfect English that cannot >be corrolated with the Arabic! > >I have studied Arabic a little, so I know that this is problematic >but I think it could be done. For example, I would >translate Allahu Akbar as, >God-he great/awesome > >Not good English, but with this, when I say 'Allahu Akbar', >the meaning is there. Each word is alive rather just a >collection of syllables that somehow means 'God is great'. > >Imagine if I could say the surah fatiha and have meaning >in each word as I was saying it, rather than saying it and >posthumously retrofitting it with meaning. > >Does anybody know of such translations? > >-- >Michael J. Moore > > ------------------------------ From: gberlind@crl.com (Gary Berlind) Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:00:20 -0800 Subject: A mailing list of possible interest Salaam Alaykum everybody. Enjoy! Abdul Matin Berlind/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------ AHAD on Majordomo@pobox.com A Hadith A Day AHAD is an automated electronic mailing list that sends out an authenticated Hadith (in English) everyday to its subscribers. Hadiths are the words and deeds of the Holy Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu 'alaihi wasallam (i.e. Peace Be Upon Him). AHAD is open to both Muslims and Non-Muslims who wish to know more about Islam. There is only ONE post from AHAD each day. The size of the daily message is at the most 2 kilobytes. Also, there might be some Special AHAD Issues once in a while. AHAD can be categorized as a VERY LOW VOLUME list. AHAD is a *ONE* way list. Subscribers CANNOT post to the list and hence it is NOT a discussion list. AHAD is a not-for-profit mailing list. We *DO* *NOT* advertise anything on our list *NOR* do we provide the addresses of our subscribers to advertisers. You will NOT get any junk mail as a result of subscribing to AHAD. To Subscribe to AHAD, send mail to Majordomo@pobox.com with subscribe ahad in the body. Owner: Abdullah owner-ahad@pobox.com ------- Use this information at your own risk. For more information and disclaimer send E-mail to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.NODAK.EDU with the command INFO NEW-LIST in the body. ------------------------------ From: dances Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:15:20 -0800 Subject: Re: Transliteration/translation unless you use hypertext markup then maybe the multiple meanings could be more accessible and less linear as a book sometimes is especially a translated one James Hallam ------------------------------ From: frank gaude Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 07:11:38 -0700 Subject: RUMI 2148 I SWEAR MY DEAR SON no one in the entire world is as precious as you are look at that mirror take a good look at yourself who else is there above and beyond you now give yourself a kiss and with sweet whispers fill your ears to the brim watch for all that beauty reflecting from you and sing a love song to your existence you can never overdo praising your own soul you can never over-pamper your heart you are both the father and the son the sugar and the sugar cane who else but you please tell me who else can ever take your place now give yourself a smile what is the worth of a diamond if it doesn't shine how can i ever put a price on the diamond that you are you are the entire treasure of the house you and your shadow are forever present in this world you're that glorious bird of paradise ghazal number 2148, translated January 19, 1992, by Nader Khalili tanzen ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #144 *****************************