From tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Mon Oct 7 22:10:56 1996 Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:56:05 -0400 (EDT) From: tariqas-digest-approval@europe.std.com Reply-To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com To: tariqas-digest@world.std.com Subject: tariqas-digest V1 #163 tariqas-digest Friday, 27 September 1996 Volume 01 : Number 163 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Simon Bryquer Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:04:50 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Michael salaams to you --- I will make this brief. First it is a poem written (or most probable dictated )in a state of fana fi 'llah (the state of total immersion in Allah/or dying to the self all the selfs) or another term is Alam al-Ghaib ( the - uncreated - world of the mystery). This is a transitory state which leads to (after great effort and Divine Grace) to the state of baqa (everlastingness or immortality). Now few ever mention the other elements which Rumi claims not to be: nature's mint, circling heavens,earth, water,air, fire and etc Obviously Rumi has reached the state of Non-Being as described above. And there's no doubt that he reached this state thru Islam. Now of course it is possible to reach this state via Kabbalah in Judaism, Zen in Buddhism, and many other paths. But every sheikh I have ever known believes and stated that the shortest path is by way of tasawwuf. Here I will not say what I think. I believe Sufism is very effective and yes, even very direct -- but sometimes direct and the shortest is not everyone's destiny. And indeed they may have to take some of those other and longer paths. But let me add a brief note and this might open up another set of objection and even flames. But we're are seeking Truth here -- are we not? According to Annemarie Schimmel, to call her a great and respected scholar (also practioner)- both in the East and the West- of not only Rumi, but the entire area of Islam and Tassawwuf would be an understatement. Nevertheless in her great study of the works of Jalaloddin Rumi (her spelling) 'The Triumphal Sun' she says of this ghazal: (quote) - -- What shall I do, O ye Muslims, for I do not myself anymore; I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Zoroastrian, nor Muslim . . . This poem, which shows the mystic beyond time and space, beyond the created borders between races and religions, has often been repeated in the West; however it is not found in the critical edition of the 'Kolliyat-e Shams', and resembles in its whole tenor rather the effusions of slightly later poets in the Persian and Turkish speaking areas, who would repeat similar ideas time and again. (end of quote) That's all for now. Salaams to one and all Simon Michael J. Moore wrote: > > Simon Bryquer wrote: > > > > Mr.McCaig--- > > > > You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you > > don't really understand what Rumi means here. This is the poem that is > > always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that > > Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and > > their illusion. But it is your life and if you insist and are not even > > aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in > > case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it > > does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a > > Muslim everyday of his life. One more word you are not Rumi. > > > > Salaams to one and all ---- > > > > Simon > > ====================================================================== > > > > James McCaig wrote: > > > > > > At 10:12 PM 9/26/96 -0500, you wrote: > > > > > > > >and if you say rumi, of if you say al-hallaj or if you say shaykh > > > al-akbar, > > > >may Allah sanctify their secret, you say the life of those who knew > > > just > > > >that and did just that from the beginning to the end. > > > > > > > Ah Rumi, his scripture is the easiest for me to understand of the > > > written > > > ones. But what of the only true scripture, the living scripture that > > > is > > > nature and all creation. Do we need a book to see the Beloved? > > > > > > Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that > > > Rumi > > > was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious > > > affiliation: > > > > > > What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > > > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. > > > I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the > > > sea; > > > I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > > > I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > > > I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of > > > entity. > > > I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; > > > I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. > > > I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > > > > > > I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. > > > My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > > > 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved > > > > > > Jallalludin Rumi > > > > > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > > > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center > > > Bookstore > > > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > > > > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > Hello, > So please Simon, don't leave me hanging. What does it mean? > I have a guess, but it is only a guess. > Salaams > -- > Michael J. Moore ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:18:07 +0100 Subject: Dear Amy I asked my dog Amy what she thinks about these topics today from sufi to soup to this thing and that. She said huuuuuu I asked her if she loved me. She said huuuuu I asked her if she knew i felt depressed She said huuuu I asked her if God loves all of us She said huuu I asked her if she was a sufi sheikh She said huuu I feel better and We both said huuuuuu. Kaffea Lalla ------------------------------ From: naimah@ioa.com (Magdalene Naimah) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:23:16 -0400 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally >>Rumi was a Muslim and was a >>Muslim everyday of his life. > >Yes, he was a true and open Muslim and he was run out of Afghanistan by >intolerant would-be Muslims like you. > as-salaamu 'alaykum, Seeing as I'm in a hurry, I will only take the time to point out that, to my understanding, Rumi left Afghanistan (of course, it wasn't Afghanistan then) as a child or young man (around age 12), with his family, fearing the Mongol invasion (not muslims). Na'imah ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:29:59 -0400 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally At 05:19 PM 9/27/96 -0500, Erik wrote: > >On a similar note a friend of mine showed me the jacket of a pop CD last >week, and guess what...there was a quote from Rumi on the back! The theme >of the CD...sex. > >With love- > >Erik. Did you know, dear brother, that Rumi wrote extensively and humorously on that subject? Have you taken the time to read DELICIOUS LAUGHTER as translated bny Coleman Barks? These are the Latin Passages in the Nicholson translation, often not printed because they are considered too bawdy. Are you implying that sex is bad? Where would you be without it? Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: Simon Bryquer Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:36:40 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Mr.McCaig ------ You're the one that seems to have it all figure out in your all encompassing abstraction of everything goes spiritualism -- but see my recent post regarding the poem you believe is Rumi's. And every assumption you've made about me is wrong. You don't know what I believe, because I have never spoken of this here, I have merely responded to 'statements' and in your case ignorant statements and coming from a man who has lived so long and supposedly experiences so much it might even be sad. But I'll keep in mind what the Talmud says in the 'Pirke Aboth' that is : 'That wisdom is not necessarily the property of age nor is foolishnes of the young.' And in that light I'll also keep in mind what Jesus Christ said: "Walk away from fools -- nobody can help them." Salaams to one and all Simon -- who represents no sisterhoood or brotherhood - just himself. ========================================================================= James McCaig wrote: > > At 10:50 AM 9/27/96 -0700, Simon wrote: > >Mr.McCaig--- > > > >You've obviously repeated this often and it is also obvious that you > >don't really understand what Rumi means here. > > Seems pretty clear to me. Is there a hidden meaning that you would care to > elucidate, Oh learned one? > > > This is the poem that is > >always quoted by people like yourself to reinforce their position that > >Sufism exist outside of Islam and I might add it is still yours and > >their illusion. > > Strange thing to say to someone who has just said "there is no Sufism > without Islam", as I did in my earlier post, which predictably irritates > brother Simon along with several other shrill voices in this group. > > Apparently he disagrees with his co-irritant from Green Mountain who says > the first Muslim and Sufi was Adam, If I understand his rambling diatribe. > If memory serves, he also said in his post that all the Prophets were Muslim > and Sufis, neatly contradicting himself. > > But it is your life and if you insist and are not even > >aware of this illusion -- so be it. There is really nothing more say in > >case like this -- time might or might not tell, for your sake I hope it > >does. And no matter how you slice it -- Rumi was a Muslim and was a > >Muslim everyday of his life. > > Yes, he was a true and open Muslim and he was run out of Afghanistan by > intolerant would-be Muslims like you. > > >One more word you are not Rumi. > > I knew that. > > > >Salaams to one and all ---- > > > >Simon > >====================================================================== > > > >James McCaig wrote: > >> Even our fact filled, albeit somewhat windy brother would agree that > >> Rumi > >> was and is Sufi. Here's what Rumi had to say about his religious > >> affiliation: > >> > >> What is to be done O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself > >> I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr, nor Moslem. > >> I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the > >> sea; > >> I am not of nature's mint, nor of the circling heavens. > >> I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire; > >> I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of > >> entity. > >> I am not of India, nor China, nor of Bulgaria, nor of Saqsin; > >> I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khorasan. > >> I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell; > >> > >> I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan. > >> My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless; > >> 'Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved > >> > >> Jallalludin Rumi > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington > Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore > United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: Michael Moore Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 17:39:46 -0700 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Simon Bryquer wrote: > > Michael salaams to you --- > > I will make this brief. > > First it is a poem written (or most probable dictated )in a state > of fana fi 'llah (the state of total immersion in Allah/or dying to the > self all the selfs) or another term is Alam al-Ghaib ( the - uncreated - > world of the mystery). This is a transitory state which leads to (after > great effort and Divine Grace) to the state of baqa (everlastingness or > immortality). > - -snip- Once again I am amazed by the depth of understanding that people on the list have. > > But let me add a brief note and this might open up another set of > objection and even flames. - -snip- Well, you'll get no flames from me, but you have sparked my interest. Where can I learn about Alam al-Ghaib? Salaams - -Michael- ------------------------------ From: "Khalil S. Ohlander" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 19:56:42 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Wrong. If you would re-check your facts, Rumi's family fled Balkh (i.e., a city in what is now Afghanistan) by the Mongol onslaught which began around 1220. By the way, the Mongols were pagans... Erik. >Yes, he was a true and open Muslim and he was run out of Afghanistan by >intolerant would-be Muslims like you. ------------------------------ From: "Khalil S. Ohlander" Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 20:01:37 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Again you missed the point; please return and read my post about context and interpretation. Blessings- Erik. >At 05:19 PM 9/27/96 -0500, Erik wrote: >> >>On a similar note a friend of mine showed me the jacket of a pop CD last >>week, and guess what...there was a quote from Rumi on the back! The theme >>of the CD...sex. >> >>With love- >> >>Erik. > >Did you know, dear brother, that Rumi wrote extensively and humorously on >that subject? Have you taken the time to read DELICIOUS LAUGHTER as >translated bny Coleman Barks? These are the Latin Passages in the Nicholson >translation, often not printed because they are considered too bawdy. Are >you implying that sex is bad? Where would you be without it? > > >Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington >Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore >United States | >http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi > > jmccaig@worldweb.net > > ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:14:50 -0400 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally At 08:04 PM 9/27/96 -0700, you wrote: > >Now few ever mention the other elements which Rumi claims not to be: >nature's mint, circling heavens,earth, water,air, fire and etc Hmmm. The elements and their significance no doubt reflect the Zoroastrian teaching of his homeland > >Obviously Rumi has reached the state of Non-Being as described above. And >there's no doubt that he reached this state thru Islam. I doubt it, along with many of Rumi's admirers. I do not doubt that Rumi was Islamic, nor do i doubt that I am too. Just not narrow and dogmatic about it, that's all. Now of course it >is possible to reach this state via Kabbalah in Judaism, Zen in Buddhism, >and many other paths. But every sheikh I have ever known Just curious about the order of magnitude here. Are we talking tens of sheikhs, hundreds or what? >believes and >stated that the shortest path is by way of tasawwuf. Here I will not say >what I think. I believe Sufism is very effective and yes, even very >direct -- but sometimes direct and the shortest is not everyone's >destiny. And indeed they may have to take some of those other and longer >paths. As you are on the short path, how long did your enlightenment take. Couple of days, a month? You sound like you are leaving Gary (the previous record holder) in the dust. Bravo! > > >But let me add a brief note and this might open up another set of >objection and even flames. But we're are seeking Truth here -- are we >not? > >According to Annemarie Schimmel, to call her a great and respected >scholar (also practioner)- both in the East and the West- of not only >Rumi, but the entire area of Islam and Tassawwuf would be an >understatement. Nevertheless in her great study of the works of >Jalaloddin Rumi (her spelling) 'The Triumphal Sun' she says of this >ghazal: >(quote) >-- What shall I do, O ye Muslims, for I do not myself anymore; > I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Zoroastrian, nor Muslim . . . The translation which I have submitted is by Dr. Ibrahim Pourhadi of the Library of Congress, who will defend his translation if anybody wants to seriously contest it. His native tounge is Farsi and he has his doctorate from Princeton in Sanskrit, while being fluent in seven other languages. He has made a life-long study of Rumi. Any takers? > >This poem, which shows the mystic beyond time and space, beyond the >created borders between races and religions, has often been repeated in >the West; however it is not found in the critical edition of the >'Kolliyat-e Shams', and resembles in its whole tenor rather the >effusions of slightly later poets in the Persian and Turkish speaking >areas, who would repeat similar ideas time and again. >(end of quote) > >That's all for now. > >Salaams to one and all > >Simon Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: James McCaig Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 21:14:52 -0400 Subject: Re: sufi words naturally Dear Na'imah, You might have me there, as I haven't really done the research, only heard it in conversation. I will check it out with somebody who knows and get the story back to the group. If my statement was incorrect, I apologize for its innacuracy, but don't withdraw the point I was trying to make, which is: If I profess to be a Sufi, who has the right to challenge me and my conception of Sufism? Some Sheikh? From some otherr Sufi group? No way. Sufism=Tolerance, IMHO, and Spritual Liberty. Don't tread on me, as the man said. At 08:23 PM 9/27/96 -0400, you wrote: >>>Rumi was a Muslim and was a >>>Muslim everyday of his life. >> >>Yes, he was a true and open Muslim and he was run out of Afghanistan by >>intolerant would-be Muslims like you. >> > >as-salaamu 'alaykum, > >Seeing as I'm in a hurry, I will only take the time to point out that, to my >understanding, Rumi left Afghanistan (of course, it wasn't Afghanistan then) >as a child or young man (around age 12), with his family, fearing the Mongol >invasion (not muslims). > >Na'imah > > Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:44:03 +0100 Subject: Sorry, another Post I don't think anyone can understand (the debates on who is a sufi and not whether islam or not), has on a new sufi, like myself. It reminds me of the different denominations of christians that I know debating on who is really a true christian or a false one, who has the right theology or not. Is there any Sheikh on this net who could respond to the pain I feel when I ,as a new sufi, am viewed as maybe not even a sufi; and I see that there is not even any concensus on this. This is how I feel. I feel homeless. I feel everyone does not know what a tremendous step it is for someone like me ,in the western culture,to be even exposed to this. Right when I learn to take a big step and say the name Allah (which always before this for me has been God), then I hear this is not good enough. Put yourself in my place. What if the only bible you ever read was the bible and the only church was a christian one, then after becoming part of a sufi circle, someone said you have to read this other bible because it is all the truth, and the latest truth, and you must get a Muslim Sheikh, and get instuctions to learn in english and Arabic these words. And you must have some one help you with the Quaran because you will not understand without help and then you will be a true and real sufi. Isn't this pretty overwhelming. In the sufi circle, I am learning completely new things anyway, like how to meditate, do Dhikr, etc. A couple of years ago, I never knew anything about meditation. I could not sit 5 minutes without my legs falling asleep, My back hurting like hell and didn't even know that there could be any pleasure in this refreshing experience. A culture where you always sit in chairs and then on floors is a drastic change. Anyway I feel kind of depressed, because where I want to feel at home I am starting to feel like an outsider looking into a world that is instead of understanding my dilemas is hollering at me. Of course this is not true of most but I do feel like a seccond rate sufi, who is never going to be authentic in some eyes. It doesn't matter that my life has been changing because of this experience, that I am no longer the same as i was before. That I am recovered from alcoholism, my faith restored in God, my love increasing, and my mental illness healed. This is not good enough. Where are the Sheikhs are Shakyhs that recognize the pressure that is being put on us and can understand that there is good coming out of these western branches of sufi and that without this none of us would have even a nodding acquaintance with who you are or even care. I have to admit that I am discouraged, and feel very lonly here. Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: Well333@turbonet.com (Jacquie Weller) Date: Fri, 27 Sep 1996 18:43:59 +0100 Subject: Sorry, another Post I don't think anyone can understand the debates on who is a sufi and not whether islam or not, has on a new sufi, like myself. It reminds me of the different denominations of christians that I know debating on who is really a true christian or a false one, who has the right theology or not. Is there any Sheikh on this net who could respond to the pain I feel when I as a new sufi realitively am viewed as maybe not even a sufi and I see that there is not even any concensus on this. This is how I feel. I feel homeless. I feel everyone does not know what a tremendous step it is for someone like me in the western culture to be even exposed to this. Right when I learn to, take a big step and say the name Allah which always before this for me has been God, then I hear this is not good enough. Put yourself in my place. What if the only bible you ever read was the bible and the only church was a christian one, then after becoming part of a sufi circle, someone said you have to read this other bible because it is all the truth, and the latest truth, and you must get a Muslim Sheikh, and get instuctions to learn in english and Arabic these words. And you must have some one help you with the Quaran because you will not understand without help and then you will be a true and real sufi. Isn't this pretty overwhelming. In the sufi circle, I am learning completely new things anyway, like how to meditate, do Dhikr, etc. A couple of years ago, I never knew anything about meditation. I could not sit 5 minutes withous my legs falling asleep, My back hurting like hell and didn't even know that there could be any pleasure in this refreshing experience. A culture where you always sit in chairs and then on floors is a drastic change. Anyway I feel kind of depressed, because where I want to feel at home I am starting to feel like an outsider looking into a world that is instead of understanding my dilemas is hollering at me. Of course this is not true of most but I do feel like a seccond rate sufi, who is never going to be authentic in some eyes. It doesn't matter that my life has been changing because of this experience, that I am no longer the same as i was before. That I am recovered from alcoholism, my faith restored in God, my love increasing, and my mental illness healed. This is not good enough. Where are the Sheikhs are Shakyhs that recognize the pressure that is being put on us and can understand that there is good coming out of these western branches of sufi and that without this none of us would have even a nodding acquaintance with who you are or even care. I have to admit that I am discouraged, and feel very lonly here. Kaffea lalla ------------------------------ From: sarmad@ezonline.com (James Brody) Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 01:54:39 GMT Subject: Re: Sufi Soup On Fri, 27 Sep 1996 03:57:16 GMT, you wrote: >>I don't know if I am natural or unnatural sufi. I don't know if sufi's get >>up in the morning, walk down the street, eat beans for dinner, have >>breakfast under the stars, don't read newspapers, existed before the cresent >>moon or after the full moon. In the Ruhaniats I am called a sufi and have >>gone through initiation. >>I know some words in other languages. I know some Dhikrs. I have a >>friend/guide. >>I believe there is no reality but God and this concept when meditated on >>changes everything I thought I knew and still do not really know. If I am >>not a sufi then I am a lover of the Beloved inside looking out at all the >>other Beloveds. >>Whatever I am, I see no divisions by God only limitations by dogma. >>I think it does not matter what i think as brain stuff is dilluted in the pure >>stream of Allah in all around all through all in all names and non-names. >>I think a tree tells me more about this than any language. Kaffea lalla > >Amen, sister. God is not limited by man's understanding of God. It is we >who are limited by our understanding of who we are. John. > > > > Here's the fire licking at everyones feet again. See how they dance. See how we dance. ------------------------------ From: Imaan Shivani Joshi Date: Sat, 28 Sep 1996 09:54:38 +0800 (SST) Subject: Re: Sufism and bay'at as salaamu 'alaikum I know to some this will be a harping on the same topic again...and I do apologise for that; but...I am still going through much doubt and have many questions...abt tasawwuf, about this life altering experience. It is not that I doubt tasawwuf as such; I think somewhere along the way, I passed that stage of doubt, and am now firmly in the belief that Insh'Allah, this is the way. But so many questions still remain. Perhaps there are no easy answers, but I would love to hear from my brothers and sisters who have themselves gone through similar stages of doubt/worry and ...come out better, Insh'Allah. I am not looking for something so abstract that I cannot begin to comprehend what is being said. Rather, I am looking for whatever may be willingly divulged from the experiences of some of my brs and srs in faith, who found their way to tasawwuf, and who ...may be willing to share with me; I would actually prefer to hear of accounts personally, unless you feel it might be beneficial to the list, what you have to say. It is said that finding your shaykh requires a certain himma[ yearning] on our part, that when the mureed is ready, the murshid appears. I have been blessed in some ways, to have seen/met some sufis recently...not many, but men who are sufis nonetheless...I did not *feel* anything. For those of you who felt drawn to a particular man or woman, who later became your shaykh, what did you feel? Did you have to seek him/her out, or was it the other way around, or even a mutual thing? My feelings on this fluctuate; my doubts go up and around. Sometimes I am so sure...and at other times, it seems as if the weight of the world is on my shoulders, and I cannot possibly cope. How do I know? How do I know? I know of some sufi aspirants who have been searching, and who have seen faces in repeated dreams, of men whom they do not know; how do they know that this man is to be their shaykh? For that matter, how do they know shaytan is not playing a trick on them? I am just so confused; so many thoughts running thru my mind, and my mind is one big jumble...I am praying for guidance, and I know, He will guide me when the time is right, and there is no point worrying; it is analogous to meeting the right partner I suppose. I know of a sister, who hardly ever steps out of the house, but who only attends lessons; she wears niqab, and so is rather strictly isolated from the world. Her ustad spoke to her one day, and mentioned that he knew someone whom he thought would be a good match for her; they were married I think, late last year. Theoretically, I know the fault lies with me, but I just have so many worries. For that matter, I am worried abt making bay'at to the wrong person. It seems, sometimes that *everyone* is just making bay'at to the first person genuine or otherwise who comes around. A br I know has been searching for 10 years now; he has met countless shaykhs, but never felt drawn enough to any of them to give bay'at. As I understand it, this is serious. We do not go around making bay'at like we would change clothes. But in this country, where true shaykhs, of any order are so hard to come by...I do not wish to settle. I want to *feel right* abt it, I want to pray and receive absolute peace with the decision. And I am still too full of doubts at present. For those of who who have found your shaykh, how did it happen? How did you know? If you don;t mind my asking. Did you take bay'at immediately? Did it change you? What does the mureed murshid relationship entail? I could go on forever... I apologise for my ineptitude and incoherence. I am just so confused. wasalaam. Imaan ------------------------------ End of tariqas-digest V1 #163 *****************************