From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #114 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/114 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 114 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Torture Re: [B7L] fanfic Re: [B7L] fanfic [B7L] Re: B7L: Horizon?Fan Clubs [B7L] Re: Avon and Ananias (still wildly off-topic) Re: [B7L] Re: Cally/Avon and other Pairings [B7L] Re: B7L] fanfic [B7L] B7 on Newsnight Re: [B7L] Federation Logo [B7L] Re: Gareth signing [B7L] Federation Logo [B7L] Torture Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Re: [B7L] Federation Logo [B7L] [blakes7] Federation/Star Trek [B7L] Once Out of the Well,Now Re: [B7L] Re: B7L] fanfic [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Re: [B7L] Federation Logo [B7L] Re: Federation Logo [B7L] Federation logo Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Re: [B7L] Avon as pilot (was Cally/Avon and other Pairings) Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Re: [B7L] Federation Logo RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Re: [B7L] B7 on Newsnight [B7L] Evolution and racial/blood division ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:56:50 EDT From: Prmolloy@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Torture Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PatPat wrote Avon, of course, looks positively shattered (or at least dazed and exhausted) after his torture scene in season 3 (no spoilers!) and even in season 4, (Moloch) after having his arm twisted, remains fragile for a spell. Pat, you're bucking the trend. Avon's not a masochist? Oh yes, that's right. It's only Slash Avon that seems to enjoy it, or so I read. Trish - "Brains but no heart." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:40:14 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] fanfic Message-ID: <2h7qxWD+ei$4EwFr@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <38FDED57.B30C317B@netzero.net>, Pat Patera writes >(who can accept Gauda Prime gratefully?) Me. But then I prefer the original Robin Hood legend, not the sanitised happy-ever-after version. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:54:39 -0700 From: Nick Moffitt To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] fanfic Message-ID: <20000419155439.K3781@zork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii begin Pat Patera quotation: > In his Textual Poachers: Television Fans and > Participatory Culture, MIT's Jenkins argues that > fanfic represents a flowering of modern folk culture. Actually, my colleague Stephane studied under him at MIT. She and I are currently holding B7 viewing sessions every Monday to marvel at the colored plastic and the first-season transitions from film to video recording (except for exterior shots). Ah, but watching 1970's Sci-Fi with a media studies graduate is always entertaining. -- CrackMonkey.Org - Non-sequitur arguments and ad-hominem personal attacks LinuxCabal.Org - Co-location facilities and meeting space Pigdog.Org - The Online Handbook for Bad People of the Future You are not entitled to your opinions. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 19:38:34 EDT From: JEB31538@cs.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: B7L: Horizon?Fan Clubs Message-ID: <69.3e01adc.262f9d7a@cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susie Wright said: > > Horizon seems to be the best-known fan club/newsletter on the internet. > Does anyone belong to the Paul Darrow Society? There seems to be a > group called ORAC (in New Jersey, I think), but they're not B7 > exclusive. Are there any good fan clubs out there, not necessarily on > the internet as well? > My experience is that the only net/print B7 clubs with both net sites and newsletters are HORIZON and AVON. Avon is the Paul Darrow Society. Right off hand, I don't have the url for it, but you can link to it from HORIZON. The Email for AVON is AvonPDS@aol.com. The club is run by Ann Bown, a very gracious lady who actually does answer Email in a fairly timely manner. The club prints a newsletter twice a year. I recommend it, even though I am a Blake fan and not an Avon fan. I especially recommend their fanzines which have a lot of Blake in them and are very good. The AVON SPECIAL was especially nice--the nicest fanzine around to commemorate the 20th anniversary of B7 in 1998. If you like fan stories, you cannot go wrong with AVON fanzines. ORAC is in Texas and I don't believe it even exists anymore. The last two letters I've written to the man who runs it went unanswered which is very unusual. I've not received a newsletter in ages. But it doesn't matter because both ORAC which publishes TARRIEL CELL (or it used to) and another Texas club BLAKE'S SEVERAL (now called SEVERAL UNLIMITED) in about 1995 or so became multi-media clubs and their B7 content in their newsletters became almost nonexistent. By the way, ORAC now stands (or used to stand) for Organized Rebel Adventurers Club. Joyce Bowen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:56:59 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon and Ananias (still wildly off-topic) Message-ID: <200004192057_MC2-A1E8-AC73@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ellynne wrote: >Now, how important was the amount Ananias >said he was giving to charity but held out on? >We don't know. Why? No one bothered to right it down. To be pedantic, charity isn't mentioned here; followers are said to lay down the money from selling their land/houses "at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need" (Acts 4.35). I think it's safe to assume this was every man belonging to the group, as we were told in 4.32 that "neither said any of them that ought [sounds like it should be aught] of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common". Though in Mark 10.21 Jesus tells the rich young man to "sell whatever thou hast and give to the poor", so maybe charity is an option. But in any case, Ananias specifically goes for the laying it at the apostles' feet option. >The amount Ananias kept back didn't make the cut. > That he lied about it to God, OTOH, was big news. I don't think there's any significance in the fact that the amount isn't specified; perhaps Luke, or whoever wrote Acts, was a conscientious reporter who didn't know and didn't want to make it up. (Peter and Sapphira discussing the land being sold "for so much" is a rather charming touch in a scary story.) You rightly mention that many precise sums are mentioned in the Bible, and also rightly mention that many of these sums are rather obscure, presumably given as anecdotal detail. But here the amount isn't the point, it's the principle that A and S die for breaking, and Peter is reported as making a double accusation, re lying and re withholding the money, which suggests two principles had been broken. My guess is that, because we live in a society where personal property is considered very important, we instinctively concentrate on the lie in this story, because lying is still (usually) considered wrong. But the more I go over the text, the more certain I am that the common property issue was also fundamental at this stage in the history of a young religious sect (and not that unusual - cf monastic orders). And I still can't see a way to bring this back to Blake's 7; the only cultish group I can think of (we know next to nothing about the Mecronians) consists of Vargas and his followers, who are living in completely different circumstances. I'm sure Vargas considered everyone else's property his own (*not* common to the group, but doled out to them out of his great generosity). But as they all arrived on Cygnus Alpha with virtually nothing and he and his family had evidently organised a new and viable society he might just about have been able to argue his case. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 21:08:46 -0400 From: "Christine+Steve" To: "Blakes 7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Cally/Avon and other Pairings Message-ID: <009e01bfaa65$07d0b380$8e259ad8@cgorman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Susie Wright > Avon has many skills, but a good pilot would come in handy if he wanted > to escape with the Liberator. He always valued usefulness over > personality (most of the time). Servalan and Avon would only work in > fantasy - Avon was right in "Aftermath" about his being "dead in a > week." But... under different circumstances, if Servalan and Avon were > on the same side, they could be a formidable team in and out of bed. I > was more intrigued by Servalan and Tarrant's pairing. It was unexpected > which made it more fun. But Tarrant shows no further interest in the > remainder of the series, unlike Avon who seems haunted by his encounters > with Servalan. I often thought Avon was a fair pilot in his own right. Handled a tricky docking in Time Squad with the Liberator and the alien's ship, was backup for Tarrant on Scorpio and piloted the shuttle craft in Orbit. If he had to choose, I don't think he'd need Jenna around. Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:01:07 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: B7L] fanfic Message-ID: <200004192201_MC2-A1E1-40B9@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PatPat wrote: >(who can accept Gauda Prime gratefully?) Me! Me! Anything to stop fourth season! > Writers are fascinated by > the characters but frustrated at the cavalier way > producers treat them. > >(let's kill 'em all!) The characters or the producers? > When producers make a beloved > character disappear or end a love affair that should > continue, fanfic restores the mythology. > >(sounds like Avon/Cally) Sounds like Cally full stop. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 22:00:59 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] B7 on Newsnight Message-ID: <200004192201_MC2-A1E1-40B8@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I was half-watching Newsnight (for the non-British, an evening current affairs programme) and an item in which Jeremy Paxman was discussing the arrival of the singularly unconvincing virtual dolly-bird newsreader when Vila suddenly appeared on screen... and I thought "Oh, hi, Vila"... and then I woke up and thought "hang on, what's Vila doing here?"... by which time the entire first season crew had joined him and were playing out the closing moments of Orac ("Of course I'm switched on!"). The point turned out to be that in the future as it's shaping up, Orac wouldn't be a plastic box but, presumably, a virtual dolly-bird newsreader. Unless Ensor rebelled and went for the bald dwarf look. This set in motion a train of thought about how people assume that the latest thing now will still be standard in several hundred years, which seems a rather large assumption to me. And maybe it explains [someone's] point about Avon not being a software specialist - software has long been superseded by some other discipline. Who knows what, except that it involves laser probes. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:19:17 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <20000419.225730.-74399.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 19 Apr 2000 02:30:02 PDT "Hellen Paskaleva" writes: > Tiger - > >I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star > Trek's > >Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > > It is interesting for me, however, what was > that > event, which triggered the transformation of the (more or less) > democratic > society in "Star Trek" into the despotic Blake's Federation. > Well, we know they had some kind of nuclear wars. Some kind of widespread war or plague would be needed to account for the population differences (B7 seems to have far fewer people and much of the Earth may be less habitable [I'm assuming they don't keep most of the population in domes and ignore the folks living outside out of some sense of balance]). There's also a greater sense of lost technology (the Clonemasters monopoly on nearly all biological research, the whole theory behind Terminal [or the theory as Servalan claimied to understand it], the emphasis on stealing the Liberator rather than being reinspired to do further research on the things Liberator proved were possible [we never hear of them reopening the teleport project]). So, widespread war and/or other disaster(s), reduced population, complete disappearance of some races (Vulcans, Klingons,etc), followed by the rise of a pro-human Federation which further subdivides its own people. Also, a galaxy spanning, totalitarian government which ignores areas and peoples on its central world. Conclusions: a large part of the ST Federation was wiped out (circumstances unknown). Humans survived, some with at least limited knowledge of their origins and history and some without (helping explain why some very humanoid 'aliens' speak the same language as everyone else [although some true aliens may still speak versions of the common tongue (which may not be English, just because the TV translates it)]). The damage on Earth probably caused some fears of genetic damage (suggesting radiation, although disease could also be a problem. If enough knowledge was lost, physical variations caused by normal genetic drift or even nutritional deficiencies could be put down to genetic damage, causing Outsiders and their territory to be shunned long after the danger was past). This suggests the Federation grading system may have begun as a way of judging genetic damage or of trying to encourage 'good stock' (I know, ewww) that evolved into a caste system. Earth, for any of several possible reasons, either remained or became a center of power. What may have initially been an effort to focus resources on a devastated, large population center became a system of Earth first. Certain types of technology were lost. Other types are preserved only by specific groups who don't share. In other cases, technology seems to have been preserved but there is little understanding of underlying principles (the ignorance of genetics and evolution shown by Servalan in Terminal is just appalling). There is a suggested prejudice against biological sciences expressed by Avon that goes along with this. Side issue on Dayna: For whatever reasons, fair-skinned Europeans dominated the offworld gene pool. The current situation is one where Dayna represents an obvious _Earth type_ with all the caste implications that carries. Remember, one of the first things she said to Avon was to scornfully ask whether she looked like one of the nonTerran locals. She worries about being able to pass for a nonTerran at other times but never about passing for an Alpha grade from Earth. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:37:04 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: freedom-city@blakes-7.org, Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re: Gareth signing Message-ID: <38FEC165.AFDC9347@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: "Gareth Thomas will be at Tenth Planet, 36 Vicarage Shopping Centre, Barking, Essex on Saturday 1st July 2000" Do you know what time? -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention 23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 19:58:38 +1000 From: Andrew Williams To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <4103E830BB67D211877400A0247B635E34DE2B@dialup49.actonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Richard asked: >has anyone else noticed (I >expect all of you, really) that the Federation logo is the same as that in >Star Trek, except turned to the right? I think the real question is why the BBC decided to use something so similar (....that and the mangled Star of David worn by space commanders). Andrew. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 20:00:08 +1000 From: Andrew Williams To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: [B7L] Torture Message-ID: <4103E830BB67D211877400A0247B635E34DE2C@dialup49.actonline.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain PatPat (is there an echo in here?) wrote: >Avon, of course, looks positively shattered (or at least dazed and >exhausted) after his torture scene in season 3 (no spoilers!) and even >in season 4, (Moloch) after having his arm twisted Moloch is actually part of season 3. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:35:34 +0100 From: "David A McIntee" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Tigerm1019@aol.com > RCalla6725@aol.com writes: > > > Sorry if this is the most boring and obvious observation I could possibly > > make that's been made 50,000 times before, but has anyone else noticed (I > > expect all of you, really) that the Federation logo is the same as that in > > Star Trek, except turned to the right? A right-wing version of the > > Federation. In fact the right-facing arrowhead is seen in Trek in the episode Trouble With Tribbles (it's on the wall behind the admiral we see on a viewscreen). B7 merely adds the interlinked circles... > I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star Trek's > Federation becomes after about four hundred years. Me too ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:38:54 +0100 From: "David A McIntee" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star > > Trek's Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > > Except that it was built 200 years before the story begins, Which still puts it 200 years after TNG/DS9/Voyager > and there are human settlements that are thousands of years old. Bzzt. Wrong answer. We're told (in, I think, Killer) that Terran space exploration began 800 years earlier. - putting B7 around the 28th/29th Century (the latter date implies that at some point the Trekverse's Temporal Federation - Braxton and Co - make a *major* screw-up... Hey, what if the B7 universe is the alternate timeline they were trying to prevent in Future's End...) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 03:52:46 PDT From: "Hellen Paskaleva" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <20000420105246.32768.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Tiger and me: > > >I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star > > > Trek's Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > > It is interesting, however, what was that > > event, which triggered the transformation... >Ellynne (nice post, Ellynne, thank you!) - > >There's also a greater sense of lost technology (the Clonemasters >monopoly on nearly all biological research, the whole theory behind >Terminal [or the theory as Servalan claimied to understand it], the >emphasis on stealing the Liberator rather than being reinspired to do >further research on the things Liberator proved were possible [we never >hear of them reopening the teleport project]). RE the lost technology: probably you remember that all the technology, related to the artificial intelligence, has been banned in Dan Simons’ “Hiperrion” because of the fear of second robot’s war against the humankind. Similar reasons, probably, had lead to banning the genetic research and related biological sciences (even today a strong opinion against the genetic engineering exists). And about the teleportation technology (...I just came with this idea few minutes ago, left all my job unfinished and start typing %-) ): The system could not be an _alien_ base, but simply an artefact of ancient Federation technology from the times before the galactic nuclear wars. (Like the Asimov’s Foundation, which was established to help the humankind to pass more painlessly through the Barbarian Centuries.) BTW, that makes Altas The Good Guys... And Liberator could not be _abandoned_ there, but _sent_ for a rescue mission at that rendezvous with London. (Well, at least, if we distort slightly The Cannon here...) >Side issue on Dayna: For whatever reasons, fair-skinned Europeans >dominated the offworld gene pool. The _current_ evolution process amongst the human population on the Earth works against blond and straight-haired people. If this tendency remained in the galactic era as well, we could say that Jenna is a rear exception and Blake – a descendant of black African and European type of phenotype. Hellen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 08:47:05 EDT From: "Trey Lane" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] [blakes7] Federation/Star Trek Message-ID: <20000420124706.16206.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Iain Coleman - Hellen Paskaleva wrote: Tiger - I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star Trek's Federation becomes after about four hundred years. Funny this should be brought up. I was just speculating that Space Commander Travis is Captain Kirk in his later years. T.ransforming R.obotic E.xploration Y.outh Immanentizing the Eschaton since 14 June 1976 ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:08:57 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] Once Out of the Well,Now Message-ID: <006701bfaad4$015b1bc0$3d6a4e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Servalan's reappearance as Sleer after her last appearance nowhere near the lifepods on a crumbling second-hand spacecraft reminds me of Annie Wilkes' rant (in Stephen King's "Misery"). Annie was upset about the unsatisfactory nature of the "chapter plays" (movie serials) she used to see, where one Saturday's episode ended with the hero in an impossible plight and the next episode blandly started with a rescued hero and no explanation. The book as a whole provides some worthwhile guidance for fanfic writers, in terms of what does or doesn't constitute an acceptable fictional development. The B7 version of "Misery" is called "Angst", and perhaps explains where all those BUARAs come from... -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:00:25 EDT From: KKrause658@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7L] fanfic Message-ID: <97.4552882.26307589@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://slate.msn.com/Features/fanfic/fanfic.asp Apparently journalists are just becoming aware of Fanfics on the web or writing about them. Here's another article on them. (It does mention B7 by name!) Karen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 12:44:23 -0400 From: pcarter@pccc.cc.nj.us (Patricia Carter) To: "'Lysator'" Subject: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <01BFAAC6.287D2580@Patricia.pccc.cc.nj.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi All, I've been lurking a lot because I only have email at work, but just had to reply to a couple of comments about Dayna. Ellynne wrote: "Side issue on Dayna: For whatever reasons, fair-skinned Europeans dominated the offworld gene pool. The current situation is one where Dayna represents an obvious _Earth type_ with all the caste implications that carries. Remember, one of the first things she said to Avon was to scornfully ask whether she looked like one of the nonTerran locals. She worries about being able to pass for a nonTerran at other times but never about passing for an Alpha grade from Earth." I agree with you on this as it seems that Hal Melanby was probably an Alpha Grade with an education to match Avon's and Blake's (Though I'm not sure it's ever mentioned that either Avon or Blake were Alphas on the show.) The irony of "Aftermath" is that it is the fair-skinned people who are the "savages" i.e., the "primitive" peoples, while the dark-skinned people are the sole repositories of Terran civilization, science and technology. (After all, the Mellanby's are both designers of high-tech weaponry systems.) I've recently written elsewhere that while this somehow looks like a reversal of the racist imperial logic of Earth most notably during the 18th through 20th centuries, the "progressive" implications of this move seem to be complicated by the fact that the "primitive" fair-skinned folks look like aboriginal peoples (or even Native American people a la Lone Ranger and Tonto). So, the equation, native people = "primitive" still holds true although the racial poles have been reversed. A couple of other thoughts on Race and B7: The Series 4 ep about the Helots mention a Federation Stock Equalization program such that each conquered planet had to have a representational cross-section of all the different races (I wonder if this applied to "alien" species as well.) In addition, in the Series 4 ep "Warlord" I noticed that at least two of the leaders of planets attending Avon's anti-Federation Alliance Conference were people of color (both men.) Hellen wrote: "The _current_ evolution process amongst the human population on the Earth works against blond and straight-haired people. If this tendency remained in the galactic era as well, we could say that Jenna is a rear exception and Blake - a descendant of black African and European type of phenotype." Would you mind clarifying this? I'm confused with your conjoining of racial characteristics with Evolutionary science, particularly as the notion of race is _not_ a scientific category. In American history, for example, notions of different races were invented during periods of widespread African-American slavery (I think around mid or late 18th century) and relied on suspect "scientific" approaches like craniology (or phrenology, I think) to substantiate the supposed "inferiority" of people of color. As far as my reading of Evolutionary theorists like Stephen Jay Gould, and Richard Lewontin goes, race in and of itself does not exist as a scientific category in and of itself, let alone in terms of evolution. While it is true that different people have different physical characteristics, the idea of say people's skin color "evolving" in the way your comment suggests seems like faulty evolutionary science (or perhaps Social Darwinism?) to me. (Evolutionary theory is perhaps one of the most commonly known but misunderstood theories in American culture, I think.) While I don't think your comment is comparable to the sheer racism of say 19th century science, I do think that positing an evolution of race or skin color could in certain contexts have some very disturbing implications. Sorry, I'm not much of a scientist, but a lay reader. Perhaps you have scientific evidence about skin color and evolution you'd like to share as I find the topic quite interesting. Also, how does the "current trend of Evolution"(?) on Earth "work against" blonde hair, blue-eyed people? And I totally lost you on the idea of a "mulatto" Blake. If anyone else would like to weigh in, that may help as well. Sorry to drone on so.... Pat C. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:16:45 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <000601bfaaed$1a102520$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is the most boring and obvious observation I could possibly > make that's been made 50,000 times before, but has anyone else noticed (I > expect all of you, really) that the Federation logo is the same as that in > Star Trek, except turned to the right? A right-wing version of the Federation. You mean the ST Federation *isn't* right-wing? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 13:13:03 EDT From: RCalla6725@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (b7) Subject: [B7L] Re: Federation Logo Message-ID: <35.41435a1.2630949f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 20/04/00 10:59:44 GMT Daylight Time, AWilliams@daikin.com.au writes: << I think the real question is why the BBC decided to use something so similar (....that and the mangled Star of David worn by space commanders). >> Don't you reckon that Terry Nation planned it that way, to be subversive in SF as well as real-life politics? Probably not, actually, he's not one for design - look at Raymond Cusick and the Daleks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 18:22:53 +0000 From: Murray To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Federation logo Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Neil, >> Sorry if this is the most boring and obvious observation I could possibly >> make that's been made 50,000 times before, but has anyone else noticed (I >> expect all of you, really) that the Federation logo is the same as that in >> Star Trek, except turned to the right? A right-wing version of the >Federation. > >You mean the ST Federation *isn't* right-wing? You're quite right; the United Federation of Planets discriminates against non-humanoids. When was the last time anyone saw a member of Starfleet who wasn't a humanoid? Murray ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:15:31 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: "'Lysator'" Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <000401bfaafc$d1ff1920$c1ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Patricia Carter asked: >Also, how does the "current trend of Evolution"(?) on Earth "work against" blonde hair, blue-eyed people? And I totally lost you on the idea of a "mulatto" Blake. If anyone else would like to weigh in, that may help as well. I think it's more a question of genes than evolution. The steady increase in interracial relationships leads to the birth of many children of mixed race, who in their turn will carry over their genes to their offspring. Black curly hair, brown eyes and dark skin being often dominant, it is logical to assume that, if this trend continues, in the far future there will be less light haired, blue/grey eyed, fair skinned people around. In this light it is fun to speculate about the ancestry of the characters. Surely there's nothing racist in observing that curly-haired Blake could be of mixed African/European stock while Avon's cheekbones might indicate a distant Asian ancestor? Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:42:16 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: "Blakes 7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as pilot (was Cally/Avon and other Pairings) Message-ID: <001101bfab00$88d874e0$c1ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve wrote: >I often thought Avon was a fair pilot in his own right. Handled a tricky >docking in Time Squad with the Liberator and the alien's ship, was backup >for Tarrant on Scorpio and piloted the shuttle craft in Orbit. If he had to >choose, I don't think he'd need Jenna around. I totally agree. From 'Time Squad' onward Avon is fully capable of piloting Liberator. But he didn't know that yet in 'Cygnus Alpha' when he tried to persuade Jenna to abandon Blake after finding the loot. After Jenna's lessons they all seem capable of flying the ship. Cally does it in 'Project Avalon' and 'the Keeper' (and probably elsewhere but those two come to mind), both times with Avon's full approval. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 20:16:51 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <01c501bfab03$44346800$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat C wrote, responding to Hellen: > Would you mind clarifying this? I'm confused with your conjoining of racial characteristics >with Evolutionary science, particularly as the notion of race is _not_ a scientific category. That's news to me - the concept of races is well established, taxonomically. I'm currently looking out for the Blue-headed race of the Yellow Wagtail, since they should be moving through about now and they're very pretty. (Well, the males are...) > In American history, for example, notions of different races were invented during periods of >widespread African-American slavery (I think around mid or late 18th century) and relied on >suspect "scientific" approaches like craniology (or phrenology, I think) to substantiate the >supposed "inferiority" of people of color. Which suggests to me that the notion of race in human beings might have been disinvented in a fit of political correctness. As I understand it, there are no recognised subspecies of Homo sapiens (with the putative exception of H s neanderthalensis, which swings back and forth from specific to subspecific status depending on which palaeoanthropologist is currently shouting louder), but there are at least four recognised human races - Australoids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids and Negroids. There are certainly (many) distinct genetic subsets within the human population as a whole. What I think Hellen meant by 'evolution' was actually racial miscegenation, with certain genes in the mixed pool becoming phenotypically dominant. I can't see any evolutionary disadvantage in being blond or straight-haired, so the disappearance of these traits would not be through natural selection per se, but if these traits are recessive to dark and crinkly hair then they will become progressively rarer. Racial miscegenation is already well advanced in Polynesia and Brazil, and in Europe the clear leader is Britain, which has a higher rate of mixed marriages than anywhere else on the continent. If this trend continues, and it currently seems set to, then the human race is slowly but inexorably heading towards the Melting Pot of the old Blue Mink hit of 1969. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 20:43:19 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <01c601bfab03$47388040$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David wrote: > > and there are human settlements that are thousands of years old. > > Bzzt. Wrong answer. We're told (in, I think, Killer) that Terran space > exploration began 800 years earlier. - putting B7 around the 28th/29th > Century Blake describes Wanderer K-47 (in Killer) as "Probably the oldest ship you'll ever see. Wanderer Class, the first Earth ships to reach deep space." This doesn't really let us date the series too accurately, since we can't really predict the pace of space exploration in the future. NASA hangs on a knife edge as per usual ect. If we work on the assumption that anyone humanoid *is* human unless they're wearing masses of latex on their heads, then there are some very old civilisations in the series. The Keezarnian recording aboard the transmat ship cites a period of 3000 years since the Keezarnian civilisation collapsed and the transmat ship launched to find a new world to colonise. That is very hard to reconcile with a 30th Century B7. (I did have a crack at it in AltaZine 5, but I seem to have mislaid my copy so can't quote the number juggling.) The even longer period of "10,000 years advancement destroyed in a day" cited by Cato in Power is actually easier to accomodate, if we take those 10,000 years to include the development of civilisation on Earth (generously going back to the first walled settlements of around 7000 BC, ie 9000 years ago). Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 15:47:57 -0400 From: pcarter@pccc.cc.nj.us (Patricia Carter) To: "'Lysator'" Subject: RE: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <01BFAADF.CD1CAA20@Patricia.pccc.cc.nj.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Marian, Thanks for the clarification here on the gene pool thing, but I guess I'd need to see some evidence that "trend" is actually occurring now -- more so than at other times in Evolutionary history -- and that the so-called decrease in Blonde hair/Blue Eyed people is, well significant enough that one must comment upon it. I mean, is this like a problem that we should all be concerned about? My impression -- and I could indeed be sadly mistaken -- is that there have always been lots of interracial mixture throughout history -- I mean, people all over the world has always been a diverse lot as different phenomenon like Colonialism or Slavery or simply intercultural trade have historically brought different peoples into contact with each other. (It seems on the other hand that if one's understanding of history = Europe and America, then perhaps one would come up with a different impression based on so limited a definition.) I agree with you that there's nothing racist at all about speculating about the heritage of B7 characters. But, I guess I always look to evidence in these cases, if not in the real world, then at least in B7 canon. Is there any evidence that Blake was of mixed African and European ancestry? Are we saying that all people with curly brown hair must have African ancestry? (Well, to the extent that Early Man was found in Africa, then, well, we're all "African," right?) Again, I'm not sure if that's an accurate application of science, rather genetically speaking in terms of the totality of human population or even in terms of evolutionary processes. So then, why must we need to speculate that Roj Blake was half-African or that Avon maybe of Asian ancestry? Sorry to be really obtuse here, and I readily admit that I have limited scientific and historical knowledge, but I don't really see the point of voicing these speculations? Is there a point to them? Or are such speculations "entertaining" in their own right. (If the latter, I've definitely missed a lot!) And even if they are pointless to my mind, I honestly don't think this should stop anyone from voicing them either, but hey, I just don't get it, that's all. Pat C. ---------- From: Marian de Haan[SMTP:maya@multiweb.nl] Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 3:15 PM To: 'Lysator' Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Patricia Carter asked: >Also, how does the "current trend of Evolution"(?) on Earth "work against" blonde hair, blue-eyed people? And I totally lost you on the idea of a "mulatto" Blake. If anyone else would like to weigh in, that may help as well. I think it's more a question of genes than evolution. The steady increase in interracial relationships leads to the birth of many children of mixed race, who in their turn will carry over their genes to their offspring. Black curly hair, brown eyes and dark skin being often dominant, it is logical to assume that, if this trend continues, in the far future there will be less light haired, blue/grey eyed, fair skinned people around. In this light it is fun to speculate about the ancestry of the characters. Surely there's nothing racist in observing that curly-haired Blake could be of mixed African/European stock while Avon's cheekbones might indicate a distant Asian ancestor? Marian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 09:05:58 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Federation Logo Message-ID: <000001bfaaa4$c76e0d20$566501d5@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I have a friend who is believes that B7's Federation is what Star Trek's >Federation becomes after about four hundred years. > >Tiger M > > Funny, I was just talking about this at lunch, and apart from the fact that they mention actual dates in Star Trek, everything seems to fit better if you put B7 before ST. eg teleport is acquired by the Federation giving rise to transporters e.g. replicator imported into the Federation from "Moloch" is used on all Star Trek ships for food preparation e.g. B7 Federation war machine appears to be based (initially) on small ships (although we get cruisers eventually), and perhaps the "battleship" Enterprise class evolved from the Federations attempts to produce a Liberator. Sorry to be swimming against the stream again. Gnog p.s. an interesting suggestion was that the producers are testing the water for a Star Trek prequel. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 21:38:51 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] On Dayna and Evolution Message-ID: <005f01bfab09$1ca209e0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil said - > there are at least four recognised human >races - Australoids, Caucasoids, Mongoloids and Negroids. I've got to disagree with you Neil. The idea of four races is just a bit of fiction. The populations of Africa show more genetic diversity than exists between (say) an australian aborigine and a white european, so why lump them all together as one 'race' and split us and the aborigines into two races? You might as well divide people up by blood group, and then there would be four recognised human races: the A-oids, the B-oids, the O-oids and AB-oids. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 06:51:52 +0200 From: Steve Kilbane To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 on Newsnight Message-Id: <200004200551.GAA05823@whitecrow.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I was half-watching Newsnight (for the non-British, an evening current > affairs programme) and an item in which Jeremy Paxman was discussing the > arrival of the singularly unconvincing virtual dolly-bird newsreader [ amusement ] One of my friends from Uni works for the company producing said virtual entity. Mind you, he does sysadmin, not products. :-) > > This set in motion a train of thought about how people assume that the > latest thing now will still be standard in several hundred years, which > seems a rather large assumption to me. Very large. You only have to look at sf written a while ago, but set now, to see how wrong people can be, but how influenced they are by trends. A more recent example: Connis Willis's "The Doomsday Book" was written in the very recent past, and is set in a very near future: everyone has desk-mounted video phones, and during a crisis, the protag is trying to (a) track down another character, and (b) get someone at a hospital to read out some relevant details from a medical record. Both are vital to the plot, and fall apart completely in today's assumptions of cellular phones and data transfer via the Internet. It's the little, ubiquitous things that change people's lives. Orac was the first of the Next Big Thing, with his ability rather than his appearance, and was right about to upset an awful lot of people who'd made assumptions based on information availability. steve ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 17:46:09 EDT From: Prmolloy@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Evolution and racial/blood division Message-ID: <78.431d2e1.2630d4a1@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > You might as well divide people up by blood group, and then there would be > four recognised human races: the A-oids, the B-oids, the O-oids and AB-oids. Just to be perverse, I must point out that further subdivision is necessary by Rh factor so you'd actually have 8 groups! Trish - "Brains but no heart." -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #114 **************************************