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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 123

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] Zines/trade or sell
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #118
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Aliens
	 [B7L] Final Four
	 [B7L] Another possible sighting of a guest actor...
	 [B7L] B7 on bbc
	 Re: [B7L] Still in Print
	 Re: [B7L] B7 on bbc
	 [B7L] Starfury pix
	 Re: [B7L] B7 on bbc
	 [B7L] BBC
	 [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
	 Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
	 [B7L] Whose Avon is it anyway?
	 Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
	 Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
	 Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
	 [B7L] Re: Avon and Aliens
	 [B7L] Avon and Aliens
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Aliens
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Aliens
	 Re: [B7L] Strangerers

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:37:47 EDT
From: CaveatEmpter@aol.com
To: reedom-city@blakes-7.org, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Zines/trade or sell
Message-ID: <73.2d50425.263d2ebb@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Since I'm still getting requests for zines, I thought I should let everyone 
know that they have all been sold.

To my surprise they were all bought in less than three hours after I had sent 
the message.

Courtney

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:15:34 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #118
Message-ID: <20000430091534.37216.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Ellynne wrote:
<It reminds me, Cally getting attacked / taken over by hostile telepaths 
gets done a lot.  OTOH, it would be nice to see some stories emphasizing the 
other side of this.>

What I'd like to read is something where absolutely everyone *except* Cally 
getting taken over...

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:19:58 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon and Aliens
Message-ID: <20000430091958.10578.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Marian wrote:
I can't see Avon as very damaged, obsessed, shy, dysfunctional or such like. 
In my view he's a clever, intelligent, self-confident, resourceful and 
before all *practical* man, who just gets a kick out of annoying everyone 
around him.>

Ummm...I *do* think he is damaged (as I've said, an emotionally barren 
history, which is why his rich, complicated, tumultuous and every-which-way 
relationship with Blake *is* more important to him than most of the others). 
It's the way I explain his extreme coldness, his indifference to other 
people, including most of the various crews, and his savage self-centredness 
- and the resultant clash with his narrow but equally extreme capacity for 
love and/or loyalty (and the lovely illogical tangles the clashes involve). 
And someone who quite coldly and willingly makes plans that involve himself 
and an unspecified period of torture by experts is hardly a model of 
*functional* thinking.

But then I think all of Our Heroes are all damaged individuals...

Cally - traumatised by the events on Saurian Major and mental isolation, she 
wavers between fanaticism and earth-mother pacifism, self-rightousness and 
complacency;

Jenna - possibly working alone for years, or with people like Tarvin and 
Largo, she is left emotionally distant and harsher than the others, with 
little gift for inspiring trust or loyalty; even Blake, whom she is clearly 
attracted to, holds a reserve with her;

Tarrant - the ex-Space Captain warped by years in the moral equivalent of 
the SS; the instincts of a well-meaning Boy Scout overlaid with the reflexes 
of a Federation bully;

Gan - a mild and phlegmatic murderer, with his emotions deadlocked by the 
limiter (okay, we see very little of it :-) but it's fun to extrapolate);

Dayna - bouncy, bloodthirsty and shallow, left dysfunctional and immature 
from her isolated upbringing (rather than from poor writing), she is the 
only one who actually enjoys violence and hurting others;

Vila - a career (but not successful) criminal, a self-proclaimed 
kleptomaniac who has had his head mucked around repeatedly, he's 
intermittently capable and brave, but usually cowardly, all too easy to 
influence (Voice being the prime example); possibly heading towards 
alcoholism at the end;

Soolin - having had her family slaughtered when little more than an infant, 
she's just as cold (if more phlegmatic and less selfish) than Avon (when 
he's pushing Zeeona into volunteering in Warlord, it's fairly clear - to me 
- that Soolin knows, and agrees);

And of course Blake, who's been put through absolute hell more than once, by 
far the *most* damaged of the lot.

And actually, being damaged by their history doesn't seem to *stop* quite a 
lot of Our Heroes also being "clever, intelligent, self-confident, 
resourceful" etc etc…they're all very tough, pragmatic individuals and 
mostly cope quite well with their scars (Fearless Leader for instance - he 
even manages to cope with the massive shock of finding out about the hooks 
still in his mind in Voice, and put it behind him by Gambit). Same with Avon 
- even with the triple shock of Rumours-Terminal-Rescue, he closes down, he 
doesn’t crumple.

PS - I'd quibble fairly strongly with the 'before all practical', BTW - a 
lot of the time, yes, but he has a deep and unpredictable streak of 
illogicality than can and does completely override practical (or even 
survivalist) considerations.

<In other words, he simply enjoys being rude.>

Oh yes, he does enjoy sharpening his wit on everyone within reach (we must 
all use the talents the Good Lord gave us).

Neil added:
<I would go further and suggest that he likes people to be equally blunt 
with him.  Sort of, "I can dish it out, can you?"  And if they can, they're 
well on the way to earning his respect.>

Again agreed. The two people he most plays at verbal sparring and games with 
- the ones whose company he actually enjoys - are the two who can actually 
beat him at his own game. Blake ("now you're just being modest") and Vila. 
He's actually very tough and resilient (which makes the necessary dumping on 
him for Beautiful Suffering heavier, of course :-)), and in any case, he 
doesn't care enough about other people's opinions to let them get to him in 
that way.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 02:21:13 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Final Four
Message-ID: <20000430092114.75333.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Dana wrote:
<Re: Warlord/Blake - annoying as Tarrant is in Warlord, nothing in his life 
so became him as the leaving of it. It seems as though he didn't hate Avon 
anywhere near as much as Avon hated him.>

Never thought either of them hated the other. IMO Tarrant's feelings were 
mainly crew loyalty (this is my teammate I have a responsibility to care 
for) mixed with an amount of bemused liking and appreciation (Avon does have 
a gift for inspiring reluctant affection in others), some irritation and a 
small but grating thread of dislike. Avon OTOH does have the mild, remote, 
faux-family care that you have for people you've known for years (like 
soldiers thrown together in a war), but no *personal* feeling one way or the 
other - totally disinterested in Tarrant as an individual. They do develop a 
good practical, fairly impersonal  working relationship.

The difference IMHO is that Tarrant *is* to an extent driven by his sense of 
duty, which is what pushes him both on Terminal (when, after Avon nearly 
kills him, he's still bounding down to the planet to keep an eye on him) and 
on Gauda Prime.

PS - I agree about Warlord, but then given the egregious pain he has to 
cuddle up to, I can't blame the poor boy.

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 06:22:59 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Another possible sighting of a guest actor...
Message-ID: <200004300623_MC2-A31E-BF0A@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Reading an obituary of an artist called Henry Bird in Saturday's Times, I
noticed:

His commitment and devotion to his work was matched equally by his
commitment, devotion and admiration for his wife, the actress Freda
Jackson, who died in 1990.  His first sight of her was her face, suspended
halfway up the stage curtain, painted green as a witch in a production of
Macbeth at the Royal Theatre, Northampton.  With typical decisiveness he
said: "That's the woman for me."

Can't find a biography to check her date of death, but this sounds like
Tara of Goth in The Keeper.

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:18:31 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] B7 on bbc
Message-ID: <390C1685.3B14EEEF@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

According to the May issue of Cult Times, season two is going ahead on
bbc 2 with Redemption on 20 May at 3.45pm and Shadow on 27 May.

--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson

Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention
23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:48:35 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Still in Print
Message-ID: <d9.37ba02a.263d7793@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

This link is to Southern Seven, which has been continuously in print since 
the mid-80's:  <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/ashton7/s7.htm">Southern Seven<
/A> 

And here's the link to the latest issues:   <A 
HREF="http://members.aol.com/bizarro7/s711.htm">Southern Seven 11 and 12</A> 

And here are the "naughty" issues (caution; do not look unless you are an 
adult!):   <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/pelkiepet/socomfort.htm">Southern 
Comfort</A>

And finally, the "Hawkwind" B7 saga in one novel edition, featuring DOWN AND 
OUT:  <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/bizarro7/down.htm">http://members.aol.co
m/bizarro7/down.htm</A>

Ordering instructions are on each link, or you can get these from Judith in 
the UK.

Leah   

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 07:50:05 EDT
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 on bbc
Message-ID: <7e.43c1728.263d77ed@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 4/30/00 7:17:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk writes:

<< According to the May issue of Cult Times, season two is going ahead on
 bbc 2 with Redemption on 20 May at 3.45pm and Shadow on 27 May.>>

Ohboy! Now, on to some of the BEST stuff!

Leah

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:39:45 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Couro Prido <CouroPrido@onelist.com>,
        Debra Collard <Debra@whisson1.freeserve.co.uk>,
        Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, Nickey Barnard <nickeyb@hotmail.com>,
        Sean Harry <Xenaevent@aol.com>, Xenanet <xenanet-l@lists.dircon.co.uk>
Subject: [B7L] Starfury pix
Message-ID: <390C45B0.F533A65@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pictures from Starfury Millennium are now up on my web site (address in
sig file).

--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson

Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention
23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 10:44:27 EDT
From: RCalla6725@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7 on bbc
Message-ID: <4a.4c25a10.263da0cb@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 30/04/00 12:51:26 GMT Daylight Time, 
steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk writes:

<< According to the May issue of Cult Times, season two is going ahead on
  bbc 2 with Redemption on 20 May at 3.45pm and Shadow on 27 May.>> >>

Let's hope this turns out to be true - I've got a fault on my mail account, 
it's wiped some of my old mails. Could the person who posted the number at 
the BBC to phone please resend it please?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:10:46 +0100
From: "Andy Hopkinson" <andyrh@netcomuk.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] BBC
Message-ID: <OFEJJKHJKAJGONINCJKMAEKOCDAA.andyrh@netcomuk.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Speak to the Duty officer at the beeb on 08700 100 222.
It would also be a good idea to contact The Radio Times and Points of View.

Radio Times
80 Wood Lane
London
W12 OTT
Tel: 0870 608 4455
FAX: 020 8433 3923
email: radio.times@bbc.co.uk

Points of View
BBC TV
London
W12 7TS
Tel/FAX: 020 8811 1050
email: pov@bbc.co.uk

Even though it says in Cult Times that Blake's 7 will continue into season
two, this is not actual confirmation from the BBC.

The repeat fees to the actors etc. are VERY much higher when programmes are
shown on the two main BBC channels, much higher that any for satellite or
overseas transmitions.
Therefore, the beeb are paying out quite a bit for these repeats and if the
viewing figures keep dropping and the audience appreciation appears to be
low, they will have no hesitation in removing it, and replacing it with a
much more cost effective cheap import.

If it is taken off, then this is bound to have a negative effect on any
investors who may be interested in putting money into the B7 Film project.


Andy Hopkinson.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:47:25 +0100
From: "Ariana" <ariana@ndirect.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, "Judith Proctor" <Judith@blakes-7.com>
Subject: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
Message-ID: <01d901bfb2d4$a9877160$a5e407c3@ariana>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A case of the curate's egg -- parts of it were excellent.

The first half was slow and reeked of padding, but things improved once we
got back to the Liberator and met Jenna's friend Omar Shariff. This
dichotomy is present in several of the episodes I've seen so far. Maybe
Nation would have been better suited to writing a 30 minute drama rather
than having to fill 50 minutes with Boucher providing the padding.

I'll confess to a pet peeve about scifi shows set in future where people
keep coming back to, referring to or worshipping the 20th century. How many
people do you know who collect, say, fifteenth century memorabilia?

I didn't find the first part particularly interesting. It was slow,
particularly in the scene where Blake is trying to explain his intentions to
Sarkoff. I wasn't really convinced by that whole aspect of the episode. Why
is Blake going through all this trouble just to interfere in Lindon's
internal affairs? It would make sense if some Lindonians had contacted him
and asked him to get Sarkoff back so that the planet would back the
Rebellion. But it seems a very ambitious, overly political plan for a band
of rowdy rebels to take up off their own bat, as it were. I'd have liked
more explanation of why this was particularly important to Blake.

As I said, things picked up tremendously when the space Bedouins turned up.
The interaction between the captives was spot on, and the whole business of
Jenna's double game was fun to watch. IMHO, this part worked because it drew
on the strengths of the regular ensemble cast.

So on the whole, not a bad little episode, though not one of the best
either.


Character stuff:
================
Jenna has a personality! What a surprise. After 10 episodes of wandering
around after Blake, we finally get to learn some more about her past and a
little about what makes her tick.

Vila gets a major fright, having to hunt down some unknown danger on his own
when Avon and Jenna go missing. Michael Keating even gets a scene entirely
to himself; you can virtually see him tremble when Vila realises he's on his
own. Later in the episode, he comes into his own disabling the neckbands,
and even gets to tell Avon to shut up.

Blake's ruthless streak rears its head again as he smashes one of Sarkoff's
records and threatens to trash the place. I'm glad to know the rebel leader
demonstrates the necessary determination to achieve his objectives; in this
case, to get Sarkoff to come with them.

Avon had less to do this episode, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, since
it gives other characters a chance to shine. Interesting to see that Avon
also knows how to pick locks; maybe he's been watching Vila and taking
notes.

Despite playing a key role in the fist part of the episode, we learned only
a little about Cally. She evidently feels that she's growing rusty on the
Liberator; she mentions at the beginning of the episode that both her
physical and telepathic skills need more exercise. We also learn that her
compatriots have been in touch with the Lindonians, and the notion that
failure is a stigma the Auronar cannot overcome is further reinforced.

Sarkoff was well-played, though I would have had more sympathy for the
character if his scenes had been more interesting. I had no specific
problems with Tyce either, but on the whole, I could have done without
either of them. The episode would have been more interesting IMHO, if the
focus had been entirely on Jenna's apparent betrayal.

Not that Tarvin was exactly a font of originality, but as a Brand-X Shariff
knock-off, he didn't do too badly. I was intrigued by Jenna's past as a
smuggler, and the fact that it included such an unsavoury character. No
wonder she likes Blake so much.

Subtext: Blake fondling the side of Jenna's face at the end. Strange thing
to do, but I wouldn't let any casual co-worker get away with it! Oh, and
lots of Vila fiddling around with people's necks.


Nitpicks and Preposterous Props:
================================
Return of the picnic box. :)

The grammophone was a nice touch, as was the automobile. That was obviously
someone's precious; no shots of *that* getting blown up!

Cally's costume on the planet was absolutely awful. I'm sorry, but that's
how prostitutes dress on cold winter nights! Whoever gave her that plush
leopardskin jacket deserves to be shot. Still, the rest of the cast didn't
fare much better. Vila and Gan were wearing their usual costumes, and
Jenna's top, which we've already seen, garnered the following comment from
my boyfriend: "If you beamed her into space, you'd only see her head".
Meanwhile, Avon dressed up as Captain Marvel. Why do costume designers seem
to think that everyone will be dressed in tin foil in the future? Bring back
the sailor suit, I say.

Cheney's use of his communicator box was nicely consistent, with the actor
even checking that the light was on before talking into it in one scene.
Pity the prop itself was so tacky-looking.

The neckbands were pretty obvious plastic and reminded me of the collar I
had for my Barbie dog many years ago. Blake's neckband is completely undone
in the scene where he wakes up -- pity Vila didn't notice that before
fiddling with it!


Dialogue Gems:
==============
VILA:   I don't like the look of that.
GAN:    Not again, Vila.
VILA:   I'm entitled to my opinion.
AVON:   It is your assumption that we are entitled to it as well that is
        irritating.

======

AVON:   First sign of trouble, we get out, right?
JENNA:  Goes without saying.
AVON:   I only wish it did.

======

ZEN:    Information. Analysis of voice print confirms that was not Olag Gan
        speaking.
VILA:   [Into communicator] Avon! Avon!
JENNA:  All right, bring him up. [Avon initiates teleport.]
VILA:   [V.O.l] Avon! Avon! Avon! Answer me! [Normal] Avon! It's not Gan!
        ... Avon? Jenna? Now don't let's be silly. Answer me, one of you.
        [To himself] I shall come out in a rash. Zen, has something happened
        to them?
ZEN:    Data is not available.
VILA:   I don't want data, I want to know what's happening.
ZEN:    It will be necessary for you to make a personal investigation.
VILA:   Oh, you're a big help. "Personal investigation." [Straps on a
        weapon] "Personal investigation." The next time Avon wants to
        make a personal investigation on how you work I shall make a
        personal point of handing him the instruments, personally.
        [Leaves the flight deck reluctantly]

[[Vila having kittens in a big way, and Michael Keating gets the stage to
himself]]

======

BLAKE:  That was stupid.
AVON:   None of us showed conspicuous intelligence on this occasion.

======

TARVIN: [Removes Jenna's neckband and tosses it aside] Good to have you back
        with us, Jenna. [Touches her]
JENNA:  [Walks away] This is purely a business arrangement, Tarvin.
TARVIN: You weren't always so cold.
JENNA:  You weren't always a bounty hunter.
TARVIN: Have you forgotten Zolaf Four?
JENNA:  Is it worth remembering?
TARVIN: Just the two of us in the mountains.
JENNA:  And three hundred customs guards.
TARVIN: You saved my life.
JENNA:  We all make mistakes.
TARVIN: I thought you liked me.
JENNA:  Oh, I did. Then.
TARVIN: Have I changed so much?
JENNA:  One of us has.

======

BLAKE:  You're not going to force it, are you?!
VILA:   -- and if I get it wrong, bang, no head.
BLAKE:  I trust you.
VILA:   And if it blows up and I'm right behind you -- !
BLAKE:  That's why I trust you.

======

VILA:   I told you I couldn't do it.
AVON:   I believed you all along.
VILA:   Nobody could open it.
AVON:   I thought you could open anything, that's always been one of your
        more modest claims.
VILA:   I could open that door in two minutes.
AVON:   This door is not quite the problem at the moment, is it?
VILA:   It seems to be a problem to you!
BLAKE:  Keep your head, Vila! That way I might have a chance at keeping
        mine.
VILA:   Yes. Avon?
AVON:   What?
VILA:   Shut up. Please.

======

CALLY:  What do you take pride in, Jenna?
JENNA:  Survival.
AVON:   At the expense of your friends?
JENNA:  I didn't know that you cared, Avon.
VILA:   He didn't. And he was right.

======

AVON:   Vila.
VILA:   What?
AVON:   Take this off.
VILA:   Well, that's all very well, but who's going to take mine off?
AVON:   Get on with it.
VILA:   [Plaintively] Who's going to take mine off?
CALLY:  And, Vila, do be quick. I'll be next.

[[The look on Vila's face as he realises he'll be the last to be rid of the
collar is brilliant!]]


Miscellaneous:
==============
I hear there's some doubt as to whether the Beeb will continue broadcasting
B7 after the end of the first series in two week's time. Well, we'll just
have to see.

Comments and discussion welcome as usual!

Ariana
======
"That was stupid."
"None of us showed conspicuous intelligence on this occasion"
            -- Blake and Avon in "Bounty"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:32:43 EDT
From: RCalla6725@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (b7)
Subject: Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
Message-ID: <be.33d16fb.263de45b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 30/04/00 19:48:10 GMT Daylight Time, ariana@ndirect.co.uk 
writes:

<< I'll confess to a pet peeve about scifi shows set in future where people
 keep coming back to, referring to or worshipping the 20th century. How many
 people do you know who collect, say, fifteenth century memorabilia? >>

Particularly annoying if the time they refer to is the time the programme is 
made - I've just rewatched my (Chris Boucher) Star Cops videos, with one of 
the characters remarking how a dead crew member was a fan "of 1980s pop".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:10:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com>
To: BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Whose Avon is it anyway?
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1000430170952.7506D-100000@world.std.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

     Re Neil's enthusiastic endorsement of Marian's "controversial
statement" (that Avon's *not* "self-hating, damaged, obsessed, shy,
dysfunctional", etc -- that he is, in fact, "very content with
himself"): I totally agree.  So, CaveatEmpter (whoever you are), there
are (at least) THREE other people who see Avon the way you do...  

     Re Sally's opinion as to whether Avon (and all the others) are
"damaged": I draw a distinction between being damaged in the literal
sense of having been injured and being damaged in the sense that one
is *significantly impaired* as a result of the injury.  It's in the
latter sense that I would maintain that none of the crew is
significantly damaged -- Blake *least* of all.  As for Avon, he's
actually the one crew member for whom a case can be made that he
wasn't damaged in either sense prior to just before we first meet him. 
Speculation about an emotionally barren upbringing is just that --
speculation.  (BTW, I see nothing whatsoever "dysfunctional" about his
willingness to be tortured in the service of an objective he's
committed to.)  

     Sondra

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:02:45 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
Message-ID: <068f01bfb2f8$54d14e60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ariana/Richard wrote:
> << I'll confess to a pet peeve about scifi shows set in future where
people
>  keep coming back to, referring to or worshipping the 20th century. How
many
>  people do you know who collect, say, fifteenth century memorabilia? >>
>
> Particularly annoying if the time they refer to is the time the programme
is
> made - I've just rewatched my (Chris Boucher) Star Cops videos, with one
of
> the characters remarking how a dead crew member was a fan "of 1980s pop".
>
I don't have too much trouble with this, especially the Star Cops example
(roughly equivalent to someone today being into early Rock'n'Roll, which of
course some people are).  It's almost inevitable that SF, by regarding the
future as the present, must come to regard the present as history (which is
a pretty odd perspective if you think about it).  Hence the SF staple of wry
comments on they way we live now (which in context is of course the way they
lived back then).

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 19:18:15 EDT
From: RCalla6725@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
Message-ID: <ea.4a900fc.263e1937@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 30/04/00 23:48:32 GMT Daylight Time, N.Faulkner@tesco.net 
writes:

<< I don't have too much trouble with this, especially the Star Cops example
 (roughly equivalent to someone today being into early Rock'n'Roll, which of
 course some people are).  It's almost inevitable that SF, by regarding the
 future as the present, must come to regard the present as history (which is
 a pretty odd perspective if you think about it).  Hence the SF staple of wry
 comments on they way we live now (which in context is of course the way they
 lived back then). >>

Don't you think it can sound a bit twee and contrived though? Worst of all is 
the time-travel episode of Star Trek - where the crew go back to 1967.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:55:40 -0700
From: Nick Moffitt <nick@zork.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Bounty"
Message-ID: <20000430185540.E991@zork.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

begin  RCalla6725@aol.com quotation:
> N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
> 
> > I don't have too much trouble with this, especially the Star Cops
> > example (roughly equivalent to someone today being into early
> > Rock'n'Roll, which of course some people are).  

	Actually it's closer to someone nowadays being into 1980's pop
music (which of course, some people are).

> > It's almost inevitable that SF, by regarding the future as the
> > present, must come to regard the present as history (which is a
> > pretty odd perspective if you think about it).  

	Wrong.  The present is PAST, not history.  There's nothing to
suggest that the present is even remotely interesting enough for
people to want to bring it up in normal conversation.

> Don't you think it can sound a bit twee and contrived though? Worst
> of all is the time-travel episode of Star Trek - where the crew go
> back to 1967.

	Yep, it does get contrived.

	Let's not forget the fourth Staw Twek movie (set in 1987), and
the old Lazer Tag cartoons (produced in 1986, but set in 3010 and
1987).  

	It gets rather trite.

-- 
CrackMonkey.Org - Non-sequitur arguments and ad-hominem personal attacks
LinuxCabal.Org  - Co-location facilities and meeting space 
Pigdog.Org      - The Online Handbook for Bad People of the Future
                You are not entitled to your opinions.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:34:07 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon and Aliens
Message-ID: <000501bfb31e$1d41b720$e0604e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marian's analysis, as seconded by Neil, is (as ever) well-reasoned and
thought-provoking. But it's entirely possible for the same person to indeed
be "very damaged, obsessed, shy, and dysfunctional" while simultaneously
being "clever, intelligent, resourceful, and practical" (although not
simultaneously self-confident!).

And such a person could easily enjoy being rude to others. After all,
Hamlet, who is hardly the poster child for healthy self-image, pretty much
spends four-and-a-half acts relating to other people largely in the form of
wind-ups.

No matter how low an opinion Avon has of himself (when he says "Of all the
things I knew myself to be, I never recognized the fool" he does NOT mean
characteristics such as "able to make perfect bearnaise sauce every time" or
"never overbids bridge hands"), he can still have a lower opinion of other
people (and be generous in sharing this opinion)--especially since it's been
awhile since he was in any position to choose his own company.

Sheridan Whiteside, in "The Man Who Came to Dinner," says "I'm NEVER nice!"
which could also be Avon's motto. (So could one from "The Threepenny Opera":
"Und wenn einer tritt, dan bin ich er"--which means something like "If
anyone gets stepped on around here, I'm going to be doing the stepping.")
That's one of the many reasons why Avon has so many female fans--many of us
are fascinated by someone who has entirely abandoned the burden that
being/trying to be nice places on us.
-(Y)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 22:07:39 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Aliens
Message-ID: <390D111B.CA84623@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marian wrote:
re:Dana Shilling wrote:
>>Avon is a self-hating human being, in the same way that Alexander Portnoy is
>>a self-hating Jew and the characters in "The Boys in the Band" are
>>self-hating homosexuals.

>Avon hating himself? How our views of him differ!  :-)  To me he seems very
>content with himself, in fact so content that he doesn't need the company of
>others.

I took Dana's words to mean that Avon hates the human race, in that he
considers most of its members stupid, illogical, overemotional, etc. I
myself don't hold my species in high regard and rather feel the Earth
would be better off without the species and the resultant destruction
and imbalance it causes. I suspect that if Avon could seceed (sp?) from
humanity and become a breed apart, (pure energy being?) he would.

Avon doesn't need the company of others? Perhaps not all the time, as
extraverts do, but few humans actually do not need the company of
others. If it were true of Avon, he would not intermingle with the crew
to the extent that he does. Human beings are hardwired to be social
creatures. There are cases of true hermits, who live totally alone in
the wilderness, but Avon hardly qualifies as that.

Precise PatPat

-- 
http://www.geocities.com/area51/1707

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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 15:37:17 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Aliens
Message-ID: <20000501053717.10595.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>Dana Shilling wrote:
> >>Avon is a self-hating human being, in the same way that Alexander 
> >>Portnoy is a self-hating Jew

What, then, is his complaint?

Regards
Joanne
(<hangs head in shame> I'm sorry, I really tried not to respond to this one, 
and I haven't even read it...)


________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 23:02:40 -0700
From: Nick Moffitt <nick@zork.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Aliens
Message-ID: <20000430230240.H991@zork.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

begin  J MacQueen quotation:
> >Dana Shilling wrote:
> > >>Avon is a self-hating human being, in the same way that Alexander 
> > >>Portnoy is a self-hating Jew
> 
> What, then, is his complaint?

	Women!

-- 
CrackMonkey.Org - Non-sequitur arguments and ad-hominem personal attacks
LinuxCabal.Org  - Co-location facilities and meeting space 
Pigdog.Org      - The Online Handbook for Bad People of the Future
                You are not entitled to your opinions.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 12:10:55 +0100
From: "Herbie" <herbie@tesco.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Strangerers
Message-ID: <390D744F.1315.85701F0@localhost>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

On 29 Apr 2000, at 18:53, Harriet Monkhouse wrote:

> Debbie wrote:
> >I missed the last episode (I think) of the Strangerers 
> >due to a power cut which messed up the timer on the 
> >video.  The last ep I saw was where the baldy headed 
> >burst fiend was about to fire the g bomb and then it
> > said to be continued. 
> 
> If you mean when they were all gathered on the road near the space
> ship, I thought that was the last episode?  I assumed that "to be
> continued" meant another series.  But maybe I got muddled, as I missed
> odd episodes.
> 
>
Yes this was the last episode in the current season. There is not 
any news if there will be a new series.

Herbie

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

mailto:herbie@tesco.net

The trouble with being the bread winner 
is the government takes such a big slice.

><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><

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