From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #186 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/186 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 186 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re: DS9 crossover (was Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons) Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Re: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman Comedy Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Re: [B7L] Re: Sandy Denny Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision) Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons) Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Re: [B7L] Priceline (was Posting fanfic?) [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision) Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision) Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) [B7L] Re: Zenith is Here Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons) Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Re: [B7L] Vila (was Greco-Roman comedy) Re: [B7L] Creations Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes [B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream Re: [B7L] Richard Adams (was Re: fav episodes) Re: [B7L] Creations Re: [B7L] Creations ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 12:35:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: DS9 crossover (was Re: Crew, Models and Liaisons) Message-Id: <200007011835.MAA29212@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU> Una wrote: > > > How about Garak using those skills *on* Avon? ;-) > > > > Ohh! Ooh! But, no, then Avon would have to kill him, and I couldn't > > bear that. (Avon is just so much less forgiving than Odo...) 'Tis a > > lovely thought, though... > > Easy: they need to keep Garak alive because only he can do something of > vital importance for them. Oh, that could work well enough, but I think I might prefer the idea of there being an ambiguity between whether they're going to be best friends or worst enemies. :) > > > Mail me mail me mail me mail me! We can brainstorm! Want want WANT this > > > story! > > > > [LOL!] I'm not going to get out of this, am I? Well, OK, in that > > case, I can use all the help I can get... :) > > :) Sigh. Tell ya what, anybody who, for some sadistic reason, really *wants* to help me brainstorm on this one, drop me a line at ragan@sdc.org. > Plot is just what characters do to each other. Heh. That does sound like words to live by. :) > :) Just set them off at each other and see where they take you. That may just be the way to do it... Ususally I like to have everything planned out before I set fingers to keyboard, but I suppose that's not really *necessary*, is it? > You don't > have to write Garak, he does all his own talking. True enough... Although I really *do* need to go back and re-watch some of the Garak episodes. Right now, he's not talking in my head *nearly* as clearly as Avon. -- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:00:23 -0600 (MDT) From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Message-Id: <200007011900.NAA29635@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU> > But Neil, I already *said* we all got distinctly different sets of the 52 > episodes. And yes, it was thrice and I can point to the > fuzzying-through-rewinding places too (single-minded? moi?). That's why he's > in such a poisonous mood, of course. Doing The Right Thing Once makes him > bad-tempered enough (anyone need proof of that???) but three times in one > day ... [Pauses for thought, counts on fingers, frowns puzzledly.] Three? Somehow I'm only coming up with two... And I *know* I got the same set of tapes as you, Sally! Obviously must watch the episode again and pay extra-special attention this time. Whee! (Except I just got "Warlord"/"Blake" -- thus finally completing my video set! -- and I have to watch that first. Don't be surprised if I come back here sobbing wretchedly afterwards, though. :)) > Sally - who unashamedly and unabashedly sees the whole series as a backdrop > for you-know-what, but is having problems trying to fit Ultraworld through > to Deathwatch into this (but has not given up) :-) Ah, well, you see, *that* period is the point where Avon's just started to bounce back from the whole losing-Blake thing (and from "Rumours" as well), and to reconcile himself to the idea that Blake's probably not coming back. So "Ultraworld" through "Deathwatch" *don't* directly relate to you-know-what: they're actually a run of episodes that have nothing at all to do with Blake in order to lull us (and Avon) into a false sense of security and thinking that it's finally all over and done with -- until "Terminal" comes along and socks us in the gut. How's that? ;) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:21:19 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] [Off-topic] Greco-Roman Comedy Message-ID: <000a01bfe392$1f3a2d60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Meredith Dixon > Neil, I was curious enough to double-check, wondering whether it really could > have been released under that title somewhere, perhaps in Britain. Afraid > not. The Library of Congress shows 15 catalog entries, some for the libretto, > some for various recordings. At least one of them was published in London. > All of them bear the title, "A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum." Then my sources, whatever they were, must be wrong, but I have definitely seen it listed under the longer title somewhere. Possibly one of those self-replicating little errors of unknown origin. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:12:08 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Message-ID: <000901bfe392$1e5858e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: > Neil wrote > > Thania is clearly a woman who views spotty chins and greasy hair in their > > due sense of proportion, and I want her telephone number *now*. > > Una, I'm think if we don't bathe for a week, we'd have the hair and possibly > the spotty chin, the politics however... Two out of three will do. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:10:03 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Sandy Denny Message-ID: <000801bfe392$1d5c93c0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Una McCormack > Neil wrote: > > I gather she's dead > > now. > > Yes, she died in the early 1970s, I believe. April 21st 1978, of a brain haemorrhage. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:48:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Blake' and beyond Message-Id: <200007011948.NAA00614@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU> Ellynne wrote: > Jenna - We know she won't smuggle certain drugs and possibly other > goods. We also know she had at least some dealings with the rebels, in the form of Avalon. It is entirely possible, within the framework of canon, to view Jenna as a completely "good guy" smuggler: running supplies to the rebels and doing her bit to take down the Federation even before she met Blake. I wouldn't necessarily go quite that far, myself, but in terms of the discussion of Our Protagonists' criminality being depicted as relatively sanatized and tame, I'd say it's relevant that that possibility, at least, is left open. -- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:52:08 -0600 (MDT) From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision) Message-Id: <200007011952.NAA00688@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU> Ika wrote: > I'm afraid I hate Jarvik more than anyone else in the B7 universe, so this > prospect fills me with cold shuddering. Yes! I am not alone! The very thought of Jarvik joining the Liberator makes me nauseous. I hate Jarvik with a deep, abiding, and utterly irrational loathing. His very presence makes the episode nearly unwatchable for me. But I had just about resigned myself to suffering in isolation. :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 13:53:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, minnie@picknowl.com.au Subject: Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons) Message-Id: <200007011953.NAA00753@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU> Minnie wrote: > Why not use the usual transporter malfunction or something or even a spacial > rift!! Well, sure, that's the *easy* part! :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:04:45 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <008801bfe397$b482c8a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellyne said - >Simply put, I realize I don't really get the Cheeky Cockney as such, no >gut reaction on the stereotype issue. This is just because 'Cockney' doesn't mean anything much in America, not that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US films and TV shows. The key points are - not well off, and in a low status role in society - noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often overweight) - not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work') - a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the higher social status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or likes to sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good on deferred gratification or exercise Now apply these rules to your own media, and I think you'll spot a few matches. >We tend to >lionize people who work for a living - starting out poor working class >and becoming rich is a popular story - but don't really trust the rich or >upper class once we feel they're seperated from the rest of us I honestly feel that you are looking at your own society through rosey specs there, Ellyne. In fact the most common criticism of England that I've heard from Americans is the exact reverse of this, that you are more keen to celebrate success and more encouraging of 'get rich quick' attitudes than we are. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 16:10:01 EDT From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Priceline (was Posting fanfic?) Message-ID: <8e.72f1b74.268faa19@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 6/28/00 1:44:49 AM Mountain Daylight Time, bragan@aoc.nrao.edu writes: > Oh, dear god, now I've got this horrible image (erm, what's the > auditory equivalent of "image?") of PD singing "The Ballad of Bilbo > Baggins," a la *Nimoy*... and a sudden urge to run away screaming > "aargh!" An entirely understandable reaction! On the other hand, it could hardly be much *worse* than the original. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 14:23:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Betty Ragan To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Message-Id: <200007012023.OAA01137@zia.aoc.NRAO.EDU> Jacqueline wrote: > As for torture: wasn't Garak's stare supposed to be his most important > interrogation tool? Yes, there was the incident where he supposedly just stared at a guy for a couple of hours and got him to break completely. (They hauled the fellow off screaming "His eyes! His eyes!") But, while on the one hand, that particular detail amuses me greatly (and, having *seen* Garak's eyes, I believe it completely and immediately), there is something about that that really bothers me. And, yeah, I know this is off-topic, but it ties into a current B7 discussion here, so bear with me a moment if you would... Because it's that whole thing again about downplaying the dark, criminal side of a character. Interrogating somebody by just *staring* at them seems harmless and funny, and we can be presented with the image of Garak doing this without losing any sympathy for his character or feeling particularly disturbed or disquieted. But that doesn't change the fact that, however likable and charming he is, Garak used to torture people for a living. He might not have *enjoyed* it in quite the way Shrinker did (I like to think he didn't, and, judging from his book, Andrew Robison (Garak) seems to agree with me). But he was very, very, good at it. Anyway, if I was going to have Garak interrogating somebody, I'd feel rather compelled not to whitewash it. (Although, come to think of it, I'm not at all sure I could convincingly write a torture scene, particularly not for Garak. Hmm.) > Just get him into a staring match with Avon. And I'd > love to read the ensuing exchange of insults. All of the above, of course, does not mean that an Avon/Garak staring contest would not be fun. And the exchange of insults is practically an inevitability. :) -- Betty Ragan ** bragan@nrao.edu ** http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~bragan Not speaking for my employers, officially or otherwise. "Seeing a rotten picture for the special effects is like eating a tough steak for the smothered onions..." -- Isaac Asimov ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:38:36 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <013c01bfe539$7fff5640$184e063e@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Una wrote: >status quo, however iniquitous, and they'll go on and maintain it for you.> > >So how many *would* have come into this category in something like the >Federation? Not that I subscribe to the "evil Federation that drugged and exploited people" point of view, but.... The way you get large sectors of the population to have an interest in the status quo is to ensure that different groups of people have different values. SO one grade (beta's ?), covert material wealth, and are willing to work all hours to get it. Others (delta's ?) enjoy a family life, and accept a lower level of material possessions, because they "value other things". And another group is clearly suppressed (gamma's ?), but they are offered ways out of poverty. Mix in peer groups, so that people only compare things locally rather than across the entire Federation, myths about the status of other professions, rumours that the grade system is a thing of the past and you can do what you want, offer education as a way of bettering yourself. Make people believe that they have worked for what they have got. Now you can have a society where most people are content with their lot, even though a very few people actually have nearly everything. They worry about losing what they have got, and are so interested in the status quo. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:17:52 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision) Message-ID: <013b01bfe539$7f1d81c0$184e063e@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Gnog: > >> But, you are correct, the main screen on the liberator does not display a >> direct optical image, but an image processed by the computer. As such it is >> equally likely to be inaccurate as any other information the computers >> present. I think what Jarvik is refering to is that he has an instinct that >> there is a conflict between the two forms of data (main screen and Zen's >> verbal report). [snip] On the whole this scene comes down to the theme of >> the episode. Servalan believes the direct output of the computer >> unquestioningly, and acts to minimise her personal danger. Jarvik interprets >> all of the information presented to him, takes into acount the human >> element, trusts his instincts, and takes calculated risks. > >Ha! Ha! I *knew* it! Just because *we* know Jarvik is right doesn't mean he >actually has a likely chance of being right! (Sorry, the whole "I'm a natural >man" thing gets on my nerves. Exactly. >> How about Servalan only stunning Jarvik, rather than killing him, and Jarvik >> joining the crew, set on overthrowing a Federation regime so cold, heartless >> and dependant on technology ? A three way struggle for control ? > >I'm afraid I hate Jarvik more than anyone else in the B7 universe, so this >prospect fills me with cold shuddering. But, past the cold shuddering, I can't >see Tarrant trying to overrule him that much - too much FSA conditioning in >their pasts. What *would* be interesting to me would be the ex-Federation vibe >between them, and how that would affect the politics of the season. > And again, precisely the point. It wouldn't work, but (in B7) who would turn away a man with such apparent skills just because he doesn't fit in ? And the tension between motivations for fighting. And the possibilities between Jarvik and Dayna, both of whom want revenge and enjoy the physical side of combat. The eventual integration into the crew, and forging of common goals, even if unspoken. Not the ideal crew. But excellent television, in the best traditions of B7. Gnog. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 22:02:31 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Screens (the technology of vision) Message-ID: <013a01bfe539$7e541740$184e063e@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Gnog wrote about message transmission: > >> It appears so, but they do appear to travel at a FINITE speed.......What about loss, what about >> the divergence of the beam. >> >It would seem that there would have to be some sort of regeneration device, >relay stations that boost the signal in some type of hubbing arrangement >rather like long distance tandem switches. Of course, that would give our >heroes some lovely targets; take out the relay stations and cut out an entire >sector's communications with the rest of the galaxy. > >Morrigan (aka Trish) You are correct. To overcome that one you could send the signal to more than one hub at once, just in case. But even with a network of communication stages, its still a long way to go from one planetary system to the other. If I recall correctly, the Mars probe communicates at less than one bit per second, because of signal loss / beam divergence. When you "hear" messages intercepted by the liberator, they sound awfully like 30 kbit/s modems to me, which is like four orders of magnitude more launch power (at least), just to get to Mars. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:36:54 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Message-ID: <000601bfe3ac$323557e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Betty Ragan > > But Neil, I already *said* we all got distinctly different sets of the 52 > > episodes. And yes, it was thrice and I can point to the > > fuzzying-through-rewinding places too (single-minded? moi?). That's why he's > > in such a poisonous mood, of course. Doing The Right Thing Once makes him > > bad-tempered enough (anyone need proof of that???) but three times in one > > day ... > > [Pauses for thought, counts on fingers, frowns puzzledly.] Three? > Somehow I'm only coming up with two... Still two more than I can come up with. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 01 Jul 2000 15:31:35 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Other peoples mail Message-ID: <20000701223135.9163.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Kathryn wrote: And I identify with Jarriere. Should I worry? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 00:08:04 +0100 From: "Ariana" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: fav episodes Message-ID: <011801bfe3b3$84ba0d60$48e107c3@ariana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Una McCormack > Yeah, I loved 'Watership Down'. And I love the cartoon film as well. I > wasn't keen on his other books, tho'. "Shardik" was quite good, but "Maya" was heavy going. I haven't tried anything else by him; "Watership Down" was evidently his masterpiece. Read that and you'll certainly never look at rabbits the same ever again. Ariana http://www.alpha.ndirect.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:19:23 EDT From: B7Morrigan@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <65.66b6f15.268ff29b@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This is just because 'Cockney' doesn't mean anything much in America, not > that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US films > and TV shows. >The key points are >- not well off, and in a low status role in society >- noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often overweight) >- not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work') >- a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the higher social >status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or likes to >sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good on >deferred gratification or exercise > I will definitely have to back Alison on the "Cheeky Cockney" appearance in the US. Generally it is depicted by region. You'll see specific targets in Southerners, rednecks, hillbillies, folks who live in the Appalachians, immigrants, etc. It is amazing to me as a resident of the Northeast how many people make derogatory comments about Southerners. It's a pet peeve in the family since my brother-in-law and his family are Southerners. He happens to be a graduate of West Point and a Ph.D. candidate in physics, and the rest of his family is pretty similar. And don't get me started on the stereotyping by ethnic origin or race. Signed, the overpriviledged, upper middle class white kid who is definitely not a liberal, just a realist, Morrigan (aka Trish) "I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. " ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:57:17 EDT From: JEB31538@cs.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Zenith is Here Message-ID: <99.6fb9037.268ffb7d@cs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Let's have an Issue 2, Andy, please? Willing to help in any capacity but > the > >financial... > > :) > Thanks Fiona, pleased you liked it. > There will be another one, providing people buy this one first... > > > Andy. > I've ordered my copy of ZENITH but haven't got it yet. Andy, I do hope that ZENITH becomes a series, but I realize you need people to buy issue # 1 to let you know if it's worth pursuing. So, EVERYONE out there, ORDER a copy of ZENITH from Judith Proctor. http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 I think it's up to us B7 fans to show that there is a market for a new B7 fanzine/magazine. B7 in print will die unless we support it. Andy, I'm a big Blake fan so I hope that issue # 2 has a few things about Blake and, also, perhaps Gareth Thomas in it. Joyce Bowen ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:40:43 +0930 From: "Minnie" To: "Betty Ragan" , Subject: Re: Re:[B7L] Re:B7/DS9 crossover thing,( was: Crew, Models and Liaisons) Message-ID: <009801bfe3ca$bab9c920$f1c326cb@marina> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Minnie wrote: > >> Why not use the usual transporter malfunction or something or even a spacial >> rift!! >Betty Ragan >Well, sure, that's the *easy* part! :) LOL!!!! Well whats stopping you Min. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 22:13:52 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <20000701.221651.-79371.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:04:45 +0100 "Alison Page" writes: > Ellyne said - > > >Simply put, I realize I don't really get the Cheeky Cockney as > such, no > >gut reaction on the stereotype issue. > > This is just because 'Cockney' doesn't mean anything much in > America, not > that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in US > films > and TV shows. > > The key points are > > - not well off, and in a low status role in society > - noticeably lower class in accent, appearance, clothing (often > overweight) > - not keen to 'better' themselves ('too much like hard work') > - a key pointer is that this person is more *sensual* that the > higher social > status person. He/she drinks or eats more, or is more sexual, or > likes to > sit around watching TV. He/she lacks refined tastes, and isn't good > on > deferred gratification or exercise > > Now apply these rules to your own media, and I think you'll spot a > few > matches. > > >We tend to > >lionize people who work for a living - starting out poor working > class > >and becoming rich is a popular story - but don't really trust the > rich or > >upper class once we feel they're seperated from the rest of us > > I honestly feel that you are looking at your own society through > rosey specs > there, Ellyne. In fact the most common criticism of England that > I've heard > from Americans is the exact reverse of this, that you are more keen > to > celebrate success and more encouraging of 'get rich quick' attitudes > than we > are. Miscommunication. That's part of what I meant. In a lot of films and books, if it's to make money or gain success, any amount of cut throat activity is presented as admirable (people who inherit money, on the other hand, are shown much more negatively, generally for assuming they have a right to lord it over everyone else [the self made rich types also do this but, even when presented negatively, it tends to be presented as part of the take charge attitude that got them where they are). It's the dark side of Horatio Alger, the idea that, if you fail, you're not trying, mixed with the idea of individual worth=net worth. That's _not_ rosy. That's scary. Yes, there's a negative image associated with blue collar types. However, it's also associated with certain characteristics we value. There often presented as lacking pretense, being extremely realistic and practical. I could list the American heroes who were poor, common men who succeded when 'book learned' experts said it was impossible (that practical-real thing over the artificial). We do it even when history doesn't actually support the story (Newsbreak: all the highly educated types in Columbus' day believed the world was round and had for centuries. Columbus just thought it was a smaller ball than they did. Please note, Columbus was wrong - but his misestimate was just about the right distance to get you to the Americas). Take a look at Rockwell's The Four Freedoms. The man standing up to speak his mind in the public assembly comes across as the plain, simple, but honest type, probably a farmer with little public education. In our mythos, he's the person you expect to see honestly precisely because he hasn't been corrupted by all that other stuff. Also, take those very sweet movies like It's a Wonderful Life (Potter has money which we never see him earn, Potter is bad [the friend who made his fortune by his own enterprise in plastics, though not as good as George, helps save the day by offering $25,000 at the end [George, who helps other people achieve the American dream and it's financial security, is the hero]). Then there's that Capra movie about the guy who inherits the fortune, doesn't like free loaders like the arts, and is in danger of being put in a mental hospital by the corrupt and greedy when he tries to use his money to help those in need). And you're right. I'll say it again: The dark side of this coin is a tendency to see get rich quick as a virtue to be pursued - and to blame those who fail. However, this still doesn't mean I have the right emotional response to Vila as the Cheeky Cockney. It's like I never realized how much of Jane Eyre I was missing on an emotional level till I saw a version that made me think of Mr. Rochester _not_ as the wealthy gentleman but as part of a clique - and Jane as one of the people excluded from the clique. Cliques, I have a gut level response to. Yes, I've read about New Yorkers taking speech classes to improve their job prospects. I've heard how a lot of people knock ten points off the estimated I.Q. when hearing a southern accent. America is not as classless as it likes to pretend. But we also interpret things by our own experience. My emotional response to Vila is still of the kid who's always been picked on at the playground. He has weaknesses I don't admire, like his drinking and his ability to cave in to almost any temptation in less time than it takes for him to be tempted, but he makes me think more of a little three year old I would like to protect (but most likely won't ever admire). Ellynne, Who admits she should be able to say these things consisely but can't. ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 09:40:30 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000702090110.00a80b40@pop3.wish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 22:23 1-7-00, Betty Ragan wrote: >Jacqueline wrote: > > > As for torture: wasn't Garak's stare supposed to be his most important > > interrogation tool? > >Yes, there was the incident where he supposedly just stared at a guy >for a couple of hours and got him to break completely. (They hauled >the fellow off screaming "His eyes! His eyes!") But, while on the >one hand, that particular detail amuses me greatly (and, having *seen* >Garak's eyes, I believe it completely and immediately), there is >something about that that really bothers me. And, yeah, I know this >is off-topic, but it ties into a current B7 discussion here, so bear >with me a moment if you would... Because it's that whole thing again >about downplaying the dark, criminal side of a character. That bit of it might have been, but just a few scenes later, he tortured Odo, even though he didn't expect to gain anything by it. And while opinions may vary about how terrible the torture was, I think the fact that Odo caved in eventually is by itself enough proof that he was hurting a lot. It simply was not a form of torture that most people would easily identify with. Being forced to hold your form comes naturally for us "solids". But just imagine being tied up in a very uncomfortable position for so long that it starts to do serious damage to muscles and blood vessels, and I suppose you come close. On the other hand, we only know that Shrinker tortured people because we were told so. We never actually saw him do anything wrong. Now Garak torturing Odo was made slightly more easily digestible to the audience by the fact that Garak apparently did it to make sure that someone who might have really done serious damage to Odo didn't do it, but once he accepted the job, he didn't hold back. So, Garak was shown to be at least as ruthless as Shrinker, but we like to find excuses for his behaviour because he is so incredibly charming (sounds like anyone we know?). On the other hand, Shrinker is considered evil incarnate even though we only hear about some of his actions, because for a while we are led to believe that he killed someone Avon loved. What we are told about his past is no worse than what we've been told about Garak's past. But Shrinker has all the charm of a sign post, so every least sign that he might be bad is multiplied by ten in the minds of the audience. >Interrogating somebody by just *staring* at them seems harmless and >funny, and we can be presented with the image of Garak doing this >without losing any sympathy for his character or feeling particularly >disturbed or disquieted. But that doesn't change the fact that, >however likable and charming he is, Garak used to torture people for a >living. He might not have *enjoyed* it in quite the way Shrinker did >(I like to think he didn't, and, judging from his book, Andrew Robison >(Garak) seems to agree with me). I don't. And considering how much we think of Paul Darrow's opinion of what Avon was really like, I tend to discount the opinions of actors when it comes to the deeper motivations of their characters. Mind you, in this case it was a good thing. Robinson made Garak charming and likeable, and the writers made him dark and mysterious by putting in conflicting remarks about his past. Put those together, and you get the Garak I've come to love (although I'd never *ever* turn my back on him, but the same thing goes for Avon). I also find it funny that this is the one character where it doesn't matter if the writer doesn't know his back story. After all, whenever Garak says something about his past, I simply expect him to contradict at least three other things he's said before. And even when events are in conflict, it only makes me believe that there is some underlying and carefully hidden explanation for the discrepancy. Like Garak told Worf: lying is a skill like any other, it has to be practiced constantly. And Garak is a very diligent man when it comes to keeping up his skills :-). Coming back to the topic of Garak enjoying his former job: I think he did enjoy it, and only lost his some of his taste for it after several years of living among people who didn't try to stab him in the back. He even seemed to be enjoying himself a little while he tortured Odo, with the kind of horrified enjoyment one can have for doing something one knows is wrong but which feels good nevertheless. I think that half the time he was trying to justify it to himself, not by telling himself that he was actually keeping Odo from being tortured by someone else, but by telling himself that he didn't owe Odo anything and that his loyalty to Taim demanded that he do this. >But he was very, very, good at it. >Anyway, if I was going to have Garak interrogating somebody, I'd feel >rather compelled not to whitewash it. (Although, come to think of >it, I'm not at all sure I could convincingly write a torture scene, >particularly not for Garak. Hmm.) I think Garak would use the more subtle forms of torture: keep his victim tied up under a dripping faucet. Or get Vila roaring drunk one evening and then hold his attention with endless stories about how he tortured others while Vila is nursing the hangover of a lifetime. That might even get him Avon's sympathy... Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 02 Jul 2000 23:23:27 EST From: "Jessica Taylor" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila (was Greco-Roman comedy) Message-ID: <20000702132327.99629.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Ellynne G." >To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se >Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) >Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 07:28:13 -0600 Ellynne wrote: >So, back to Vila. To me, he'll always be the scared guy who got picked >on by the schoolyard bullies and will go to any lengths to appease them >or avoid conflict... I agree with you, I always thought of Vila as the sort of kid who'd make fun of himself so that others wouldn't tease him or he'd let the other kids tease him and try to laugh with them, because he was afraid of getting hurt (Tarrant on the other hand strikes me as just the kind of kid who'd pick on the little kids for their lunch money). Jessica Jessica ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:06:02 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Una McCormack" , "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations Message-ID: <00a601bfe42c$2621b360$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Una McCormack To: b7 Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 4:54 PM Subject: [B7L] Creations > of the job he held throughout the production of the show. As script editor, > Boucher pretty much had the final word on *all* the scripts that went out. > This would mean that *every single episode* would be subjected to Boucher's > touch. Which is a very good point. > Moreover, there are several occasions when scripts were running under and > Boucher wrote more material (uncredited) to bring the episode up to the > right time length (is it 'Breakdown' or 'Bounty' - or both - that's the > classic one here?). I wonder if there any other examples from later seasons > when Boucher basically had to rewrite an entire script so that is was > suitable for the show. Whih would be an interesting thing to do sometime, too, one of you people who run zines/webpages etc-- sit Chris Boucher down with one of said script and work out which bits are whose. > Terry Nation had limited input on the show during season 3, and none across > season 4. IIRC there's a bit on the newest "Together Again" where somebody asks a question about Nation's influence in season 3, and Chris Boucher remarks a bit sharply that N. was more or less out of the picture. > It's interesting to remember that Bob Holmes was offered the job of script > editor on B7. I'd argue that the show would have been *completely* different > if he'd accepted, rather than suggesting Boucher to Maloney. D'you think? Remember, Boucher and Holmes (what a lovely pair of names!) were close colleagues, and Boucher was Holmes' protege. Both of them too do have a gift for plotting and amusing and vivid characterisation, and have clever, well-paced plots. Par and Lye are a "Holmsian" double-act if ever I saw one. That having been said, I think it would have had much more of a Gothic/Victorian feel to it. "Gambit" meets "Raffles" might well be right-- though I think that could have been an interesting approach... > Incidentally, I think 'Survivors' is terrific, is absolutely Nation's > creation, and that once he was off the show (season 3?), it was crap (except > for 'The Last Laugh'). Of course, maybe there was a really good script > editor there too... Agreed, and that's one reason I think to defend Nation a bit on B7-- the party line these days seems to be tending a bit towards the "Nation wanted to make it a jolly adventure romp and Boucher gave it grit and edge." While I agree that it was Boucher gave it the edge, I think "Survivors" shows that a Boucherless B7 needn't have been crap. Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jul 2 15:02:15 BST 2000 From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Message-Id: <200007021408.PAA01586@smtp.uk2net.com> > From: Una McCormack > > I notice, also, that no-one has leapt to the defence of Thania's greasy > > hair. > Neil: > Thania is clearly a woman who views spotty chins and greasy hair in their > due sense of proportion, and I want her telephone number *now*. > Sorry Neil, me and Thania don't give our telephone number out in case Servalan catches up with us. Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 10:21:27 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Freedom City Subject: [B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Gareth will be playing Oberon in A Midsummer Night's Dream and a part (not yet known which) in 'Dear Brutus' a play by JM Barrie. It will be at the Nottingham Playhouse. Dates are not yet known, but are likely to start near the end of August and end in October. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jul 2 15:35:28 BST 2000 From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Richard Adams (was Re: fav episodes) Message-Id: <200007021441.PAA01782@smtp.uk2net.com> > From: Una McCormack > > Yeah, I loved 'Watership Down'. And I love the cartoon film as well. I > > wasn't keen on his other books, tho'. > Ariana: > "Shardik" was quite good, but "Maya" was heavy going. I haven't tried > anything else by him; "Watership Down" was evidently his masterpiece. Read > that and you'll certainly never look at rabbits the same ever again. The other way round for me - I couldn't get past the first chapter of "Shardik" but I *loved* "Maya" (possibly just because it was a bit rude, though). Did anyone read "The Girl In a Swing" which is not only my fave of his books but one of my favourite books in the Whole World? (I'm sure there's a B7 connection there, but for the moment it eludes me). Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 11:06:47 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Judith Proctor" , "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations Message-ID: <00a701bfe42c$271450c0$77c628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Sent: Friday, June 30, 2000 8:50 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations > The overlap is by no means total, but comparing Box to Orac will give an instant > flash of recognition. > LOL! It did, it did... Fiona Fiona Moore http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jul 2 15:55:48 BST 2000 From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Creations Message-Id: <200007021501.QAA01892@smtp.uk2net.com> Una: > > Incidentally, I think 'Survivors' is terrific, is absolutely Nation's > > creation, and that once he was off the show (season 3?), it was crap > (except > > for 'The Last Laugh'). Of course, maybe there was a really good script > > editor there too... Nyder/Fiona: > > Agreed, and that's one reason I think to defend Nation a bit on B7-- the > party line these days seems to be tending a bit towards the "Nation wanted > to make it a jolly adventure romp and Boucher gave it grit and edge." While > I agree that it was Boucher gave it the edge, I think "Survivors" shows that > a Boucherless B7 needn't have been crap. > Terry Nation wrote "Terminal", didn't he? One of the darkest episodes ever. (Maybe not gritty per se, but still incredibly hard to watch - probably second only to 'Blake', which I'm not allowed to watch because it makes me impossible to live with for days.) I tend to think of TN & CB (and RH) as standing together against the forces of ... oh, let's see... and just MHO, but Ben Steed and Tanith Lee. And I love the few episodes of Survivors I've seen, btw. Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #186 **************************************