From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #189 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/189 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) - totally tangential to anything. [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) [B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Re: [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like) Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) [B7L] B7/DS9 crossover Re: [B7L] Moondisks (was: Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188) (Fwd) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender) Re: [B7L]After the revolution Re: [B7L]After the revolution Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing [B7L] APE Re: [B7L] After the revolution [B7L] Cheeky Cockneys - not [was Re: Greco-Roman comedy] [B7L]After the revolution Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 21:46:07 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Message-ID: <022201bfe536$3cd12f40$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellyne said - >It suddenly occured to me that Garak has a great deal in common with >Vila. I'm not a DS9 expert (I don't really know his back story) but whenever I see Garak I think 'Vila'. But then I have kind of idiosyncratic view of Vila anyway, where the deceit goes very deep, and there's a lot more violence. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:32:52 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000703213252.9329.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ika wrote: It's totally without canonical or any other evidence, but I'm convinced that Blake did not expect to survive the Federation's downfall. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:15:53 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <008801bfe6c9$6cb0bc00$1f9701d5@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'm *loving* this thread, and haven't said anything so far because everyone >else is so much more interesting on it than I could be. But that never stops me >for long... Still, I'm not going to respond at length, because I can't. So, >huge snips ahoy! > I'm so pleased for you. Since everybody is invoking IRL examples. Was what Blake wanted a kind of splitting up of planetary systems with a turbulent past, lots of intermingling and different ideals ? A bit like the Balkans then. Might be a good idea (I express no opinion), I just hope Blake puts the right people in the right places to keep the whole thing stable. Gnog. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:23:55 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) - totally tangential to anything. Message-ID: <008a01bfe6c9$6eeb69c0$1f9701d5@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> Which is why I went for Italy-- >The purpose of life :) > Could be ! Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:25:14 +0100 From: "Pat Sumner" To: Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Message-ID: <003801bfe545$f2e596e0$bd34883e@s5e8f3> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Nyder" >Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up their >Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather >system was controlled by Star One. I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find it anywhere(!) I believe that Una was saying something along the lines of Blake not caring what results his actions produced, resulting in the deaths of all the dreamheads, hopelessly addicted to Shadow. Surely all those dreamheads were addicted to a substance which was going to kill them soon in any case? Take the case of Peety, brother of Hanna and Bek, HANNA: '...wasn't due another dose for twelve hours, but he just... just died.' BEK: 'Just died? That's what Shadow does, it kills you!' And elsewhen in the episode, Largo speaking of the added ingredient to his Shadow, states that it 'just kills them a little sooner.' So the dreamheads would have died regardless of Blake's actions. He just prevented many more potential addicts from dying (at least from Shadow addiction). The example should maybe have been Blake's genocidal act, killing an entire intelligent species (apart from the one in Cally's room). We know they're intelligent because previously in the episode they've been communicating with and helping Cally. Hardly the moral stance Blake took in 'The Web.' Does anyone know (obvoiusly not in any great detail) how Shadow was administered? All I want to know is, was it injected, swallowed, smoked or maybe absorbed through the skin? Also, how much was one dose? One of those orange spheres? By the way, there's nothing insidious about my need for this knowledge. I'm writing a roleplaying adventure (featuring all-new characters). So if anyone from the roleplaying group is on this list, you never read this. Pat ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:20:30 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <008901bfe6c9$6e099540$1f9701d5@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Nyder said: > >> Are the lower classes happy with their lot? More easily duped? Or just not >> posh enough? > And Dana replied. >If you're not the lead sled dog, the scenery never changes. The Lower >Grades >may feel that they have very little stake in what the Alphas are doing, >because >whatever happens, they're still going to be working in factories and >cleaning >houses. >-(Y) > As you say, the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change. And it always seems to be the Lower Grades who suffer during change (quite often by being killed), so the status quo sounds pretty good, even if those snobby Alpha's are grabbing all the credits for themselves. AND, if I clean this house really well, I might get to clean a house Outside the Dome. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:32:25 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: [B7L] Which IRL society most resembles the Federation Message-ID: <008b01bfe6c9$6fabac80$1f9701d5@leanet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> ......Terran Federation and the >> Roman and British Empires: >> >Sigh. ........ Catholicism in Ireland as one example. > >> The Federation, .....reminds me more of the Soviet Union >> under Stalin. etc etc. OR... The Federation has some history books, and tried to take the most effective lessons from all sorts of regimes. So it behaves like Stalin towards religion (which gives people two leaders, and so spreads the power). It fakes some form of cultural tolerance like the Romans (to gain the trust of the people, and so indoctrinate local leaders in Federation schools). It operates its military system like Fascists, with compulsory Cadetship. It takes a huge pride in free market economies like the west in the late 20th century. It covertly supports organised crime like (.......). It formed like the Athenians, because it did. And because power corrupts, it is corrupt. etc etc. Gnog ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 11:14:09 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like) Message-ID: <20000704011409.26035.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Neil Faulkner" >So you don't actually know that you are an unwitting pawn in their grand >conspiracy? There might yet be some slender filament of hope for you. >Of course, as an unwitting pawn you could hardly be expected to know, could >you? Just keep your wits about you in future, and be extra cautious of >anything that shuffles. There's me done for - thanks to you two, there are penguins everywhere. The last straw was yesterday evening. After work, I saw a large, inflatable version sitting at the door of the Australian Geographic shop in the shopping centre next to where I work. Straight after that, on the bus, I saw a headline in one of the newspapers: Penguins evacuated.* It's all too much! Regards Joanne (presently listening to I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Vol. 1, and still at a loss about Mornington Crescent) *For Neil's benefit: South African penguins, I think - the report came from Johannesburg. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 13:14:26 EST From: "Jessica Taylor" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000704031426.36489.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Una McCormack" >To: "Lysator" >Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) >Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:16:14 +0100 > > I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its > > leader hadn't been stark raving mad. > >Can an individual have a noticeable impact on history? In Hitler's case one >would instantly say, 'yes', but the interesting thing about the example is >the extent to which the bulk of that society happily threw itself behind a >leader who was stark raving mad. Not too surprising really. Hitler was presented brilliantly by the likes of Riefenstahl and Goebbels as a loving father to his people, he was presented as generous, a lover of children and the family, so people trusted him. What Hitler did was take advantage of the anger and uncertainty among the population caused mainly by poverty and project it where he wanted, this gave them something to follow and believe in. In convincing the people that the reason they were poor and hungry was because wealthy Jews had stabbed them in the back and because of crippling reperations forced by Britain and France he found scapegoats and created common enemies to unite the population. Basically he found a way to boost morale by giving the people a hero, they didn't see him as stark-raving mad. > > Even Nazi Germany produced Leni > > Riefenstahl and Albert Speer, > >Both of whom I'd use as contrary examples : people whose talents and >intellects were corrupted by the political system in which they operated. Yeah, good point. The Nazis were also one of the first nations to begin anti-smoking campaigns, they promoted the need for healthy young Aryans, the perfect German was good at sport and running so a campaign against smoking was run to encourage the population to stay healthy. Same thing again. Good ideas, scary reasoning. > > and ended the howling chaos that was Weimar >The classic example of how shit democracy can be! >Una To be fair, in the last year, before Hitler came to power one of the leaders whose name escapes me did try to set up what he called a five year economic plan to sort out Germanys economy, probably would've worked out too if he hadn't died. Jessica ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:23:02 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <00aa01bfe56a$28119c00$89614e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral said: > > Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'? I'm working on a "Una as android" theory myself. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:44:08 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Message-ID: <00ad01bfe56a$36cc0e60$89614e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally said: > > Avon OTOH has strong (if erratic) protective instincts, but of the three > > crew members who inspire them most strongly, two of them are Fearless > Leader > > (for the most part as fragile as a battering ram) > and Morrigan replied: > Not at all irrational. Neither Fearless Leader or Dayna are physically weak > but both have a tendency to be impulsive, acting before thinking (if they > ever get round to that) and therefore need someone to come along and rescue > them, sweep up the pieces or protect them from their own irrationality. > Perfectly logical. Actually this is on the brink of the OtherList, but I can imagine a B7 version of "Candida" with Avon giving himself to the Weaker of the Two and poor Vila slinking poetically into the night... Blake does have that Rev. Morell quality of having his invulnerability sustained by a large support system. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:30:27 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Ornithological nightmares (was Re: Women we like) Message-ID: <020001bfe579$7b495430$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > There's me done for - thanks to you two, there are penguins everywhere. Hey - don't blame me! It's Neil with the psychosis! > Joanne > (presently listening to I'm Sorry I Haven't A Clue Vol. 1, and still at a > loss about Mornington Crescent) Still funny tho', isn't it? Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:32:44 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Message-ID: <020101bfe579$7b9a5a60$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat wrote: > From: "Nyder" > > >Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up their > >Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather > >system was controlled by Star One. > > I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find it > anywhere(!) I don't actually remember giving this example, but I just assumed my memory was faulty. Maybe I didn't after all. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:27:03 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?) Message-ID: <01ff01bfe579$7aed9fa0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dana: > Mistral said: > > > > Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'? > I'm working on a "Una as android" theory myself. Unkind to androids. Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:31:39 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000703.233407.-97551.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:20:30 +0100 "Andrew Ellis" writes: > As you say, the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by > change. And > it always seems to be the Lower Grades who suffer during change > (quite often > by being killed), so the status quo sounds pretty good, even if > those snobby > Alpha's are grabbing all the credits for themselves. AND, if I clean > this > house really well, I might get to clean a house Outside the Dome. > Like poor farmer in some parts of Latin America. They'll pick a low value food crop (with a low failure rate) over a high risk cash crop. Having a marginal existance where survival is a constant concern, they'll take assured poverty over iffy improvement. Seems to me there was a peasant revolt or two in the Middle Ages where the peasants went after reformers out to improve their lot because they saw it as threatening their lives. I know that was the cause of riots when they changed calendars, people afraid they would lose the wages for the 'vanished' days. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:37:11 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Message-ID: <20000703.233407.-97551.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 4 Jul 2000 00:25:14 +0100 "Pat Sumner" writes: > From: "Nyder" > > The example should maybe have been Blake's genocidal act, killing an > entire > intelligent species (apart from the one in Cally's room). We know > they're > intelligent because previously in the episode they've been > communicating > with and helping Cally. Because of the complete lack of debate, including from Cally, I wonder if they didn't have some kind of communal intelligence. Since Blake was only destroying part of the Shadow crop, he was damaging the organism but not killing it. It would explain why the plants hung around even though the Federation harvested them. OTOH, if it was intelligent and mobile, why didn't Cally just tell them how it was bieng used for mass murder, etc? And did she save any cuttings from a certain planet with intelligent and carnivorous plants? What kind of greenhouse does the woman have? Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 06:41:53 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels Message-ID: <021501bfe57a$9191b740$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sondra wrote: > Judith mentioned "a wonderful SF novel by Susan Matthews" where > the hero is a surgeon who becomes a torturer and discovers that he > enjoys his work. Sondra, is this the same person who wrote 'Mind of a Man' etc? Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:40:14 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Mon 03 Jul, Christine+Steve wrote: > > Kathryn wrote: > > > think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos as what > > actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately making the > > systems go nutzy.> > > Then Sally Manton added : > > > > I'll share that nitpick :-) What we see in the early scenes of Star One > > seems to be the results of climate control *out* of control, rather than a > > reversion to whatever was natural for each planet. It is probable that > there > > would have been *some* serious problems (and probably deaths) from the > > latter, but nothing like what Durkin was displaying. > > I guess it depends how inhospitable the planets were before the climate > control systems were switched on. How much did the climate systems control? > Whether it changed an existing "livable" environment, or whether it was able > to generate a new atmosphere over a previously poisonous one. given how difficult climate control is in reality - anyone out there know an easy way of halting global warming? - I'd suspect that planets can't be taken far from their original climatic regime. Some control over where rain falls would not be too difficult (provided that clouds actually pass over the region in question), but large scale adjustments would need incredible amounts of energy. Massive solar mirrors to warm worlds too far from the sun might be possible, but a stable climate might not result for centuries. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:34:33 +0000 From: Murray To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] B7/DS9 crossover Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Una, >> An excellent B7/DS9 crossover story already exists in print: 'Seas of God' >> by Sharon Eckman, published by Diane Gies in the zine 'The Web 3', which I >> very strongly recommend, as it also has superb illustrations. > >Does it have Garak? Indeed it does. Here is a sample from page 18: "Vila. What a nice surprise." Servalan had rarely sounded so insincere. Quark looked up and licked his lips. "Beautiful woman. Beautiful dress." "One of my first," said Garak from behind them. "Madame Servalan does it more than justice." Vila tried to conceal a shudder as he studied the newcomer. Grey skin, thick cord-like ridges circling his eyes, running down his neck. A lizard, or an insect. Dark eyes and a smile as insincere as Servalan's. Murray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:33:49 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Moondisks (was: Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188) Message-ID: <20000704083349.10368.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Pat wrote: Depends on what you call 'intelligent' - nothing that Cally says indicates any *sentient* intelligence, just consciousness (whatever that means ), telepathic warm-and-fuzziness and helping her much in the way a dog will help you if it can grasp what you want (which, it being a telepathic communication, need not have been anything approaching sentience.). And, as Ellynne points out, Cally doesn't utter a peep of protest (her attitude to the one she saves is *entirely* that of someone with a pet) so I can't believe that she - would has been 'communicating' with them - considers them an intelligent species. Yes, her conscience is somewhat in abeyance in this episode, but I'm not really prepared to see it as *that* lacking. Wiping out an animal/vegetable species (which, telepathic or not, they still appear to be) comes under the heading of enforced extinction, not genocide, and since they're being harvested and killed anyway (and others are being killed by them) ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 01:34:30 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: (Fwd) Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000704083430.27982.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dana wrote: I doubt that the lower grades of worlds like Albian (who along with the rest of the population were being ground into *total* impoverishment - and guess who normally starve first) would quite see it that way ... (and personally, I wouldn't be that confident of the views of those who *were* being drugged, no matter how many or few one chooses to argue this may be). On Saurian Major, OTOH, Blake says, half the population were butchered, the rest transported (and this is termed 'typical Federation efficiency'). Going by 20th century precedents (Katyn, Cambodia) there's a good chance that the upper grades/intelligencia were among the former. So maybe one was better off being lower down, as 'twere ... OTOOH, Joban (Voice) says clearly that Blake's support is spread from the Alphas to labour grades ("They talk of him as a sort of...hero"), so it appears at least some (and a significant some in the President's eyes) of the lower classes are *not* indifferent (whether passive through fear, inertia or helplessness). Swings and roundabouts, maybe ... ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 10:24:13 +0100 (BST) From: Iain Coleman To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Jul 2000, Judith Proctor wrote: > given how difficult climate control is in reality - anyone out there know an > easy way of halting global warming? I have a simple and elegant solution to the problem of climate change, but unfortunately the margin of this post is to small to contain it. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:10:42 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188 Message-ID: <3961AA11.D7DBEFA9@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Sumner wrote: > From: "Nyder" > > >Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up > their > >Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather > >system was controlled by Star One. > > I realise that I should be quoting Una's example myself, but I can't find it > anywhere(!) Probably because I'm the one who brought up the dreamheads, not Una. > I believe that Una was saying something along the lines of Blake not caring > what results his actions produced, resulting in the deaths of all the > dreamheads, hopelessly addicted to Shadow. Actually, I didn't say at all that Blake didn't care; what I said, was that it's reasonable to assume that at least some portion of the population didn't agree with or appreciate his actions. I'm quite certain that he did care, that he'd decided that the ends justified whatever means he had to use. > Surely all those dreamheads were addicted to a substance which was going to > kill them soon in any case? I wish I could say that I'm surprised, but unfortunately I knew that somebody would bring this up. We are *all* dying from the day we're born, some of us faster than others. The fact that someone is dying does *not* IMO make their life less valuable; it may make each day more precious to them and those that love them. Did you really get the impression that Bek didn't care about Petey's death? Many addictions kill the addicts if allowed to go to their natural conclusion, for example alcoholism. Would you really walk into an oppressive regime and execute all the alcoholics if it would bring freedom to the survivors? Or maybe you'd go to Africa and execute all the Aids sufferers (including 25% of 15-18 year olds in some countries, so I've read) on the grounds the standard of living would go up for everyone else. Paint me hopelessly retro, but I find those horrifying prospects. I think that the shadow addicts, like any other addicts, were not as a rule trying to kill themselves, but trying to make their lives more bearable. They may have consciously been trading length of life for quality of life, or perhaps they thought they'd escape the 'it just kills you' part (denial is a part of addiction), but that's a far cry from signing away your right to live. The disturbing thing is that Blake knew that destroying the cacti wouldn't even have much effect toward his cause; he *said* so. He was just sending a message to the President. Expensive message. If he'd cared, he could have at least had Orac attempt to formulate a cure for shadow addiction, or a maintenance drug. Blake is being at least as selfish and short-sighted here as Avon at the end of Killer. And before anybody flames me for taking this position, let's remember that Our Heroes skirt the line between heroism and terrorism rather closely, and that it appears to be designed into the series; that's part of its appeal. Yes, I come down just a bit to the terrorism side. Wouldn't it be dull if nobody did? Cheers, Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:22:34 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Message-ID: <3961ACD9.DE550F13@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > I'm not a DS9 expert (I don't really know his back story) but whenever I see > Garak I think 'Vila'. But then I have kind of idiosyncratic view of Vila > anyway, where the deceit goes very deep, and there's a lot more violence. Ooh, what a tease. Can't you at least give us a thumbnail? Or is it not suitable for this lyst? Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 02:25:45 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender) Message-ID: <3961AD98.60AE7E4F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > >From: mistral@ptinet.net > >Does it help any if I volunteer that I don't see any resemblance > >between the two (perish the thought--I'm very fond of Jareth), > >but I've always seen a distinct similarity between Jareth and Avon? > > Er , no, the only (vague) similarity I can think of > off-hand, involving trousers shall we say, is best discussed on the Other > List, and I was there only briefly some time back (something didn't like me > being there, I know not what...) Well, actually, I was thinking personality-wise; but if you're looking for a physical similarity, there's that lovely sullen pout. Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 12:20:15 +0100 From: Alison Page To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C675@BRAMLEY> Content-Type: text/plain There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says: > the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change As a member of the Lower Grades I'd just like to say that this is manifestly not the case. Please note that I am not saying that any particular program of change is guaranteed to produce material improvement. Nor am I saying that Blake's revolution is such a program (apart from the disadvantage that it is fictional). What I'm saying is that clearly the lower classes can benefit from change, because they have done so in loads of examples. This can be gradualistic change (as in the UK in the last century) or precipitate change (as in South America under Simon Bolivar). An explicit political program can (to take an example) reduce deaths in childbirth, decrease infant mortality, increase average heights by inches within decades, increase life expectancy by years, eliminate rickets, improve literacy (this is particularly true for female literacy levels) and so on virtually indefinitely. Let me just take one example. My grandmother and I were both born to homeless households without a breadwinner. She is under five feet tall, with only basic education, and she nearly died in childbirth without anaesthetic. I am six inches taller than her, I've been to University, and I had full surgical attention which saved my life in childbirth. I work for 8 hours a day, she worked for 14. These are not trivial differences. I actually think such a 'material gain' is literally worth dying for. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:24:43 +0100 (BST) From: Iain Coleman To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Jul 2000, Alison Page wrote: > There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says: > > > the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change > > As a member of the Lower Grades I'd just like to say that this is manifestly > not the case. I'm jumping in here because this discussion has been bugging me a bit, and I want to articulate why. There seems to be this assumption that the 'lower grades' are effectively apolitical, through choice or apathy. Does no-one remember Red Clydeside? The 'lower grades' can be intelligent, literate, well-informed and highly politicised. For some reason, this reminds me of a story that was told on a TV programme about the life of Kenneth Williams. Sometime in the 70s, Williams caused some controversy by making forceful, right-wing, anti-union comments on the Parkinson chat show. Such was the hubbub that Williams was invited back on the show the following week to debate these points with a trade unionist: namely Jimmy Reid, a highly articulate and intelligent man who at that time worked in the Glasgow shipyards. Williams didn't know Reid, and clearly regarded himself as far more cultured than this Glaswegian manual worker. Before the show, they did a soundcheck. Normally, each speaker would simply say a few words into the microphone, but Williams rose and gave a powerful, eloquent delivery of a beautiful poem. As he sat down, Reid said 'That was Yeats, wasn't it?'. Grumpily, Wiliams acknowledged that it was. Then Reid did his soundcheck. Again, he delivered a powerfull, passionate poem that left the audience profoundly moved. Then he turned to Williams and said 'Do you know who wrote that?' When Williams said he didn't know, Reid told him 'I did'. When it came to the televised discussion, Williams was clearly rattled, and very uncomfortable indeed. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 13:48:45 +0100 From: Alison Page To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C677@BRAMLEY> Content-Type: text/plain Mistral said - >Ooh, what a tease. Can't you at least give us a thumbnail? Oh, you know, I tend to bang on about this from time to time. I kind of considered the idea that Vila (and later Tarrant) were both Fed spies, or started as Fed spies and went native. I still like this idea, but I can't prevent myself taking it a bit further In my private canon Vila is actually an agent of whoever is behind the whole first two seasons. Whether human, alien, or artificial intelligence. The enigmatic 'forces' who made sure that the London, carrying just the right people, stumbled across the Liberator, just the right ship. Who made sure that Blake found Star One, and that Servalan was in a position to believe he found it, and help him fight the andromedans. I'm thinking of agencies that have brain power but very little physical force, and so manipulate human beings into doing the hard work Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:03:32 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] APE Message-ID: <200007040903_MC2-AB17-DBC9@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In June, we were told about a publication called APE which included a B7 graphic story by Loulou Harris and might be available via WHSmith. Smith and other places I tried looked blank, and the notice did say something about getting copies by mail order when the retailers started returning them. Are there any more details on this? Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:03:46 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] After the revolution Message-ID: <200007040904_MC2-AB17-DBD6@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally wrote: >Tynus seems to be private security I think not. According to the transcripts, Mr Tynus says: "I'm only the commander technician here. Federation Security is in charge of all sensitive stores." Don't think the Federation were the types to have private security on their bases. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 09:03:53 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Cheeky Cockneys - not [was Re: Greco-Roman comedy] Message-ID: <200007040904_MC2-AB17-DBD7@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Neil identified as a Cheeky Cockney: >George Formby, a very definite contender. Come off it, he's the Emperor of Lankysheer. By the way, Neil, I hope you're going to explain the real significance of the evacuation of the Jackass penguins from Robben Island? Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 09:27:04 PDT From: "Hellen Paskaleva" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L]After the revolution Message-ID: <20000704162704.35194.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Again time for a revolution, eh? I'm back then. ;-) >From: Andrew Ellis: >Was what Blake wanted a kind of >splitting up of planetary systems with a turbulent past, lots of >intermingling and different ideals? A bit like the Balkans then. >Might be a good idea Ha! Nice sample. I live there, but I didn't thought about it... Well, as the Balkans were part of the Soviet block and as such they acted as one single economical and political body, we *can* compare them to the Federation. After the downfall of Berlin wall in the beginning of the 90's, countries from the region spitted up from Russia and became effectively independent - with economical and political structure of their own. (Here we have to exclude Serbia, which still is federative communist republic.) After only several years of a relative chaos, situation with the civil rights in the countries from Balkan region improved significantly (as well as their economical conditions) and most of them now can meet European Union's criteria in these fields. Which is unthinkable progress, believe me... If we extrapolate this to the size of the Earth Federation, we can assume that not long ... after the revolution, we will have vast number of planets with independent governments and stabilising economies. We don't know how many of them will be actually democratic and non-totalitarian, but this is entirely at their own to decide. Probably their experience with the Federation will prevent people there to make the wrong choice. >...I just hope Blake puts the right people in >the right places to keep the whole thing stable. I do not think this is Blake's job - to "put" or remove governing bodies. The very idea of the change is to let the planets and their people to make *their* choice who will rule them. IMO. Hellen ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue Jul 4 17:48:05 BST 2000 From: Ika To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes Message-Id: <200007041653.RAA31768@smtp.uk2net.com> > Sally wrote: > > > > Avon OTOH has strong (if erratic) protective instincts, but of the three > > crew members who inspire them most strongly, two of them are Fearless > Leader > > (for the most part as fragile as a battering ram) and the Valkyrie Dayna > > (who would scare the dickens out of any sensible man and the first time > she > > lays eyes on him, slings him over her shoulder and carts him off to a > > deserted cave :-)). Two of the *strongest* people he comes across. > > > > Avon does have this wonderful illogical streak among the cold rationality, > > and it's such *fun* to watch it in action. Trish: > Not at all irrational. Neither Fearless Leader or Dayna are physically weak > but both have a tendency to be impulsive, acting before thinking (if they > ever get round to that) and therefore need someone to come along and rescue > them, sweep up the pieces or protect them from their own irrationality. > Perfectly logical. > I like this idea - Avon might not be the most handy in a fight, so his protective impulses are directed towards an area where he actually *can* protect people. Sweet. Love, Ika ---------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using http://uk2.net UK's FREE Domains, FREE Dialup, FREE Webdesign, FREE email ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 22:52:46 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000704225246.A27294@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:32:52PM -0700, Sally Manton wrote: > Ika wrote: > colonized planets in the first instance - what he would do on Earth if he > won and the Federation ceased ruling there is another question,> > > It's totally without canonical or any other evidence, but I'm convinced that > Blake did not expect to survive the Federation's downfall. Not cannonical, perhaps, but I think there are intimations. Jenna: At least you're still alive. Blake: No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back with the honest man. Avon: Have you ever _met_ an honest man? (Blake's 7: Spacefall [A2]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat \_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 23:16:23 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond) Message-ID: <20000704231623.C27294@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jul 03, 2000 at 02:30:28PM -0400, B7Morrigan@aol.com wrote: > Murray wrote: > > > The Federation, by contrast, appeared to be hostile to _all_ religion as a > > matter of ideology, and for that reason reminds me more of the Soviet Union > > under Stalin. > > I'd agree that the Federation resembles the Soviet Union in objection to all > religion; I wonder if religion was kept as alive in the Federation as the > Russian Orthodox Church managed. I would think so. I'd also expect that a number of the non-Federation worlds would be very religious by contrast, having been colinized by those fleeing religious persecution. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Gan: What's that expression of yours? Cally: Companions for our death? (Blake's 7: Bounty [A11]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat \_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #189 **************************************