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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 191

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] Oxfam + Steven Pacey + Insp Morse
	 Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
	 Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
	 Re: [B7L]Cygnus Alpha (was After the revolution) 
	 [B7L] I need your help
	 Re: [B7L] Not even remotely Greco-Roman comedy any more
	 Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
	 [B7L] 
	 [B7L] Re: After the revolution
	 [B7L]After the revolution
	 [B7L] Re: Auntie's Golden Bloomers. (fwd)
	 Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
	 Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
	 Re: [B7L] Mitigation of crimes
	 [B7L] Re: OT: Speer
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
	 Fwd: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
	 Re: [B7L] Mitigation of crimes
	 Re: [B7L]Cygnus Alpha (was After the revolution) 
	 Fwd: [B7L] (old list-- Nova? A criminal?)
	 [B7L] Gareth's plays
	 Re: [B7L] The Simpsons (was Greco-Roman comedy) 
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
	 [B7L] After the revolution - The power of delta's
	 Re: [B7L]After the revolution 
	 [B7L] After the revolution - one possible scenario
	 [B7L] Zenith & Sally Knyvette
	 Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
	 Re: [B7L] After the revolution - The power of delta's
	 Re: [B7L]After the revolution 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:22:04 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Oxfam + Steven Pacey + Insp Morse
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0704132204-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I was pricing stock in Oxfam this morning when I happened to come across a two
cassette 'talking classics' book of 'She' by Henry Rider Haggard, read by Steven
Pacey.  I haven't listened to the cassettes yet, but the box is in good
condition and there's a picture of Steven on the back with a brief biography.

I reserved it on the grounds that someone here would probably be prepared to
donate Oxfam more than it would usually get in the shop.

How much is 2 hours and 25 minutes of Steven's voice worth?  (It's a good
adventure story - I remember reading it many years ago)

first person to offer ten pounds to Oxfam plus postage can have it.  (It's for
charity, so please be generous)

I also found a CD of music associated with Inspector Morse.  The sleve notes
helpfully say which episode each piece comes from and what the music expressed
in terms of the episode.  I don't know if there are any Morse fans here, but
I'll offer it for five pounds to Oxfam plus postage.

Incidentally, we occasionally get in cassettes where Martin Shaw is doing the
reading.  I don't think we've any at present, but if there's interest, I'll keep
an eye open for any more in the future.

Aren't charity shops wonderful? <smile>  (I get some fantastic clothes there)

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 20:46:09 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <00d201bfe61a$7d7326e0$56694e0c@dshilling>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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From Nyder:
>
> Heh. Hm, is it possible to take the analogy further? Lisa as Jenna, Marge
as
> Cally, perhaps; Tarrant as Bart... Maggie as Soolin? Avon as Krusty? Nah.

No doubt because I'm working on the B7 "Some LIke it Hot" so saxophones
are much on my mind...but I can DEFINITELY see Avon as Lisa, watching
Bart Blake write "I will only blow up central computer systems that have
computers in them...."

-(Y)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 13:09:04 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000705030904.74270.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
>To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
>Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
>Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:50:21 -0400
Steve pointed out:
>Actually, its strange why no-one from the Federation bothered to check up 
>on
>the prisoners on Cygnus Alpha.  Given more time and access to a spaceship,
>Vargas would have been pretty powerful and quite a good adversary for the
>Federation.

I guess they they didn't consider that the prisoners were a significant 
threat and to be honest I'm not really sure either. For a start the 
prisoners obtaining a spaceship seems unlikely and even if they did I doubt 
they could do much damage before they got caught, still if they could find a 
backward planet (and their seem to be enough of those about) with more 
resources than Cygnus I suppose they could start a sort of base of 
operations. Maybe the people in charge of shipping prisoners out were of the 
'stick them in the dungeons with one inept guard' persuasion.

>Its a similar idea to "And the Children Shall Lead" from the original Star
>Trek.

Oh the Agony! Definately one of the worst TOS episodes ever made!

Jessica
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 13:09:36 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Cygnus Alpha (was After the revolution) 
Message-ID: <20000705030936.57494.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
>To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
>Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
>Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2000 14:50:21 -0400
Steve pointed out:
>Actually, its strange why no-one from the Federation bothered to check up 
>on
>the prisoners on Cygnus Alpha.  Given more time and access to a spaceship,
>Vargas would have been pretty powerful and quite a good adversary for the
>Federation.

I guess they they didn't consider that the prisoners were a significant 
threat and to be honest I'm not really sure either. For a start the 
prisoners obtaining a spaceship seems unlikely and even if they did I doubt 
they could do much damage before they got caught, still if they could find a 
backward planet (and their seem to be enough of those about) with more 
resources than Cygnus I suppose they could start a sort of base of 
operations. Maybe the people in charge of shipping prisoners out were of the 
'stick them in the dungeons with one inept guard' persuasion.

>Its a similar idea to "And the Children Shall Lead" from the original Star
>Trek.

Oh the Agony! Definately one of the worst TOS episodes ever made!

Jessica
________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 05:20:28 +0100
From: "joe young" <joe@whitesands.screaming.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] I need your help
Message-ID: <003001bfe638$5b3acb00$02000003@w5h1p5>
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Dear Anyone,
                    Could you please tell me how to unsubscribe from =
this mailing list. I was added to it without my consent, so could =
someone help me get some normality to my mailbox.

                                                                         =
  Cheers,
                                                                         =
     Joe.

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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
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<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Dear Anyone,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Could you please tell me how to unsubscribe from this mailing list. I =
was added=20
to it without my consent, so could someone help me get some normality to =
my=20
mailbox.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
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bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
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&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
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bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
Joe.</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 01:11:48 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Not even remotely Greco-Roman comedy any more
Message-ID: <20000705081148.33216.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Dana wrote:
<I can DEFINITELY see Avon as Lisa, watching Bart Blake write "I
will only blow up central computer systems that have computers in
them....">

Oh I *love* this image ... thank you.



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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:26:23 +0000
From: Murray <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <l03110700b588e6c1ecc6@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Kat,

>> I'd agree that the Federation resembles the Soviet Union in objection to
>>all
>> religion; I wonder if religion was kept as alive in the Federation as the
>> Russian Orthodox Church managed.
>
>I would think so.  I'd also expect that a number of the non-Federation
>worlds would be very religious by contrast, having been colinized by
>those fleeing religious persecution.

Yes, I'm sure that a lot of the hostility of non-Federation worlds to the
Federation was driven by a hatred among many of their populations of its
'atheistic and godless' nature. Due to this, I'm picturing a Pope and other
religious leaders in exile on such worlds.


Murray

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:33:19 +0000
From: Murray <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] 
Message-Id: <l03110702b588e9718e50@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Fiona,

>Mildly debatable-- the British, remember, had an active policy of
>encouraging missionary activity, and doing things like, erm, making
>alterations to Hindu religious erotic art and making Polynesian women wear
>blouses, etc. The last paragraph of "Allan Quatermain," in which the hero,
>who has married an African tribal queen (white, naturally) remarks that much
>as he loves his wife and her people, he would deeply love to see a cross on
>top of the local temple rather than a Pagan sun-worship symbol before he
>dies-- which seems to sum up the Victorian attitude to religion; tolerate
>the local faith, but encourage them to convert.

Religious toleration is not incompatible with a belief in a particular
faith, as long as there is no attempt to forcibly convert people to that
faith. Regarding the British Empire, while there were established Christian
Churches in Britain and Ireland, there was no established church in the
Empire. Queen Victoria, in her proclamation stating her assumption of the
title of Empress of India, made it clear that, while she believed in the
truth of Christianity, she renounced any attempt to impose it by force.


Murray

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:41:31 +0000
From: Murray <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: After the revolution
Message-Id: <l03110704b588e9ebaafe@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Ika,

>> The Federation, by contrast, appeared to be hostile to _all_ religion as a
>> matter of ideology, and for that reason reminds me more of the Soviet Union
>> under Stalin.
>
>Fair point - but what about Cygnus Alpha? Presumably there were some
>sectors of
>society (or some planets or whatever) that were just beneath notice on this
>front as on others, provided the tribute came in (or whatever).

Is Cygnus Alpha part of the Federation at all? It appears to be just a
place where the Federation dump people, and there are absolutely no
manifestations of Federation authority whatsoever. I presume that the
Federation couldn't care less what the convicts and their descendants get
up to, as they're stuck there.
If Cygnus Alpha is not a full part of the Federation, this can be used to
explain any deviation from the latter's religious prohibition policy.


Murray

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 06:25:34 PDT
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L]After the revolution
Message-ID: <20000705132535.89166.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Me:
>I do not think this is Blake's job - to "put" or remove governing bodies.
>The very idea of the change is to let the planets and their people to make
>*their* choice who will rule them. IMO.

Neil:
<And those supporting Blake would point to the planets where it all worked 
out all right, and those against him would point to those where it all went 
horribly wrong.>

Me, again:
Well, if continue the resemblance with the Balkan countries, he still has 
pretty good odds, here. Eight countries are "working all right" versus one - 
Serbia - which doesn't.

Hellen
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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:04:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Auntie's Golden Bloomers. (fwd)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0705170439-965Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

I just got this from Maureen Marrs.
> 
> Thought you might like to know the BBC have at long last scheduled Auntie's
> Golden Bloomers for believe it or not this Saturday 8th July at 5.20pm
> (possibly variable time depending on the Wimbledon coverage). According to the
> Radio Times features clips from Dr Who, Blake's 7, AllCreatures Great & Small
> etc. 

JUdith

------------------------------

Date: Wed Jul  5 18:20:09 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <200007051725.SAA22489@smtp.uk2net.com>

> Trish wrote:
> 
> > Murray wrote:
> >
> > >  You missed one fundamental difference between the Terran Federation and
> the
> > >  Roman and British Empires: their attitudes towards religion. The Romans
> > >  allowed a wide degree of religious toleration, only intervegning if a
> > >  religion had features that they regarded as particularly objectionable,
> > >  such as human sacrifice. The British consciously followed the Romans,
> only
> > >  interfering in cases like sutee (the burning of widows).
> > >
> > Sigh.  Wish that was true but if you were to ask the colonists, they'd
> have a
> > different story.  Catholicism in Ireland as one example.  It cannot be
> > described as religious toleration if there are penalties for belonging to
> a
> > particular religious group.

Una:

> 
> Although that particular religious intolerance wasn't a split on colonial
> lines. There was plenty of intolerance towards indigenous Catholics in
> Britain too.

And in Rome - Nero burned a load of indigenous Christians because they started 
the Great Fire of Rome (Though I should imagine none of them were Roman 
citizens, however. But there was one elite Roman citizen woman who was 
sentenced to death by her family for converting to Judaism, around the same 
time - first century CE anyway. Sorry, my dates are terrible.)

Moral: Religious tolerance is rarer than you might think in empires of any sort.

Love, Ika

Love, Ika


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Date: Wed Jul  5 18:26:15 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <200007051731.SAA22538@smtp.uk2net.com>

> Ika wrote:
> <So Blake, for me, is trying to obtain freedom and self-government for all 
> colonized planets in the first instance - what he would do on Earth if he 
> won and the Federation ceased ruling there is another question,>

Sally:
 
> It's totally without canonical or any other evidence

Evidence-schmevidence. When have you *ever* seen me care about evidence?

> but I'm convinced that 
> Blake did not expect to survive the Federation's downfall.
 
That's an interesting one, which I'll think about. (Angst ahoy! Ika's maxim: 
When there's no evidence [and even when there is], always go for the scenario 
with the maximum angst.) I certainly don't see him wanting to be in charge of 
anything on Earth after the downfall.

Does this expectation of death let him off the hook, though? I don't know 
because my background (RCP supporter then Cultural Studies student) means that 
every time I try and think about what will happen after the revolution I get 
told off for dangerous utopianism, as of course after the revolution the 
proletariat will decide and a whole new cultural/ideological milieu which we 
cannot yet imagine will be ushered in, so there's no point imagining what it 
will be like because all we know is that it is inconceivable with our bourgeois 
heads (Comrade Neil, help me out here). 

Love,
Ika

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:27:54 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Helen Krummenacker" <avona@jps.net>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mitigation of crimes
Message-ID: <001301bfe6a8$02691ac0$fcc628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> To add to Gan's defense... I get the impression he killed the man who
> killed his woman almost immediately after her death (thus hot blood)
> also, his use of bare hands for his revenge points to a lack of
> premeditation.

Not saying a word; I *liked* "The Mark of Kane," myself (which suggests
something more ambiguous and potentially much nastier).

> > Avon - Hey, every theory has it's exceptions.
> Actually, his reason for stealing was a desire for freedom.

D'you think? I think it had more to do with the money, and, more to the
point, the thrill of committing a massive crime and getting away with it.
Avon seems the sort to enjoy the grand gesture.

Fiona

Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:49:00 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>,
        "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: OT: Speer
Message-ID: <001701bfe6a8$04e6ec00$fcc628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:02 PM
Subject: OT: Speer (Was: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and
beyond))

Me/Una,

> What was the alternative... Well, ObB7, and to quote the Great God
Boucher -
> 'There's always a choice, Deva...'

Yes, but a choice between what. I got into this argument a while back when a
friend argued that the ordinary Germans should have resisted Hitler. I
countered with the example of the grandfather of a German friend of mine, a
kind and inoffensive portrait painter who was drafted into the army in the
1940s. He could have resisted-- but what would it have been for him then?
The camps? If he tried to get out of the country or to stay inside and
resist, what would have happened to his wife and daughter? There was a
choice, but a pretty nasty one.

> In Speer's case, you unfortunately start asking those questions round
about
> the time when the country's back in howling chaos and with both economic
and
> political systems in collapse - mostly as a result of the plans of the
bloke
> at the top.

Unfortunately Speer's not alone-- seems like people only ask the hard
questions when it's too late.

> I don't know what happened to Leni Riefenstahl,

Went to the USA and is still doing disgustingly well, given that she's
90something. She's also an unrepentant Nazi, but not one actively fomenting
the rebirth of the Reich from the looks of things.

> exactly prospering. But then Speer seemed to think he'd done OK by the end
> of his life.

Best-selling author... poster child for redeemed Nazis... yeah, I'd say so.

Fiona

Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 08:32:22 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: <mistral@ptinet.net>, "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-ID: <001401bfe6a8$03002aa0$fcc628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: <mistral@ptinet.net>
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2000 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188


> And <sigh> before anybody flames me for taking this position,

Flame you? Misty, you said what I wanted to say and better than I ever could
say it. Thanks.

Fiona

Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed

------------------------------

Date: Wed Jul  5 18:43:33 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <200007051748.SAA22700@smtp.uk2net.com>

Una and Fiona:



> > Can an individual have a noticeable impact on history? In Hitler's case
> one
> > would instantly say, 'yes', but the interesting thing about the example is
> > the extent to which the bulk of that society happily threw itself behind a
> > leader who was stark raving mad.
> 
> But remember, what was the alternative? There's a lovely line in the play
> "Speer," to the effect that "ten million Germans didn't vote for Hitler
> because he was evil, but because they thought he could make something of the
> country." Again, you have a country in howling chaos and with both economic
> and political systems in collapse, and along comes this bloke with what
> seems like a coherent and workable plan to restore order-- it's only later
> that you start to ask questions.

Anyone read Stephen Fry's novel "Making History" which makes the point that at 
least Hitler *was* a nutter, and his plan failed - in the novel, someone goes 
back in time, makes sure Hitler was never born, and someone else takes over the 
Nazi Party, runs the whole thing a bit better, and they win the war. "Hitler" 
the individual is like the new "Satan" - not that I'm saying he was a good 
person in any way, just that his individual impact was probably a bit less than 
people like to think (because it's more comforting than having to think yeah, 
maybe we would have voted for him as well)


> > I don't know anything about Roman political ideology and justifications
> for
> > expansion, but what troubles me most about the Nazi example is the way in
> > which racial/nationalist ideology was pivotal, and the ruthlessness and
> > success with which it was enacted.
> 
> This is true, and certainly they were rather more, erm, proactive than the
> Romans were (I don't know much about it but as far as I can tell the Romans
> didn't regard any particular race or group of races as subhuman; though they
> certainly regarded some groups as pig-ignorant barbarians, they don't seem
> to have regarded this as incurable).
> 

I'm not great on this either, but I think the modern concept of "race" was 
invented around the time of the Enlightenment and European colonial expansion 
into America, Asia, Africa etc. Roman ideas of "race" didn't posit the kind of 
absolute difference between races that allows ideology to say that a "race" 
(rather than a type, or whatever) or person is subhuman. (Eg we don't know 
whether Cleopatra was "black" because that wasn't a term that meant anything to 
the Romans, so they didn't record it one way or the other.) Genocide probably 
depends on the modern notion of race (or species, in SF). (Which is interesting 
in terms of the way Dayna's being black is almost always ignored in B7, but 
genocide seems fairly common. Or is it always speciesocide or classocide? Help 
me out here, you people who know the canon better than me).

Love,
Ika

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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 13:57:43 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mitigation of crimes
Message-ID: <003f01bfe6aa$9b7aac40$4e009ad8@cgorman>
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Fiona added
>
> > > Avon - Hey, every theory has it's exceptions.
> > Actually, his reason for stealing was a desire for freedom.
>
> D'you think? I think it had more to do with the money, and, more to the
> point, the thrill of committing a massive crime and getting away with it.
> Avon seems the sort to enjoy the grand gesture.
>

I think Avon knew that once he had money, he could buy his freedom.  In
Cygnus Alpha, once they'd found the vault, he refers to being able to buy a
planet.  I think the early Avon would have liked enough money to set himself
up somewhere safe to work on computers.


Steve Dobson.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 14:07:21 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Cygnus Alpha (was After the revolution) 
Message-ID: <004a01bfe6ab$f15c0900$4e009ad8@cgorman>
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Jessica Taylor added :

> Steve pointed out:
> >Actually, its strange why no-one from the Federation bothered to check up
> >on
> >the prisoners on Cygnus Alpha.  Given more time and access to a
spaceship,
> >Vargas would have been pretty powerful and quite a good adversary for the
> >Federation.
>
> I guess they they didn't consider that the prisoners were a significant
> threat and to be honest I'm not really sure either. For a start the
> prisoners obtaining a spaceship seems unlikely and even if they did I
doubt
> they could do much damage before they got caught, still if they could find
a
> backward planet (and their seem to be enough of those about) with more
> resources than Cygnus I suppose they could start a sort of base of
> operations. Maybe the people in charge of shipping prisoners out were of
the
> 'stick them in the dungeons with one inept guard' persuasion.

Yes.  I wonder if there was some form of warning bouy in orbit to keep
people away.  There wasn't really a lot stopping friends or accomplices from
stopping by to rescue people.

> >Its a similar idea to "And the Children Shall Lead" from the original
Star
> >Trek.
> Oh the Agony! Definately one of the worst TOS episodes ever made!
Oh I don't know... I kinda like it really.  <g>

Steve Dobson.

------------------------------

Date: Wed Jul  5 19:54:21 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] (old list-- Nova? A criminal?)
Message-Id: <200007051859.TAA23709@smtp.uk2net.com>

Helen Krummenacker :
> > What did Nova do to get deported?  Step on the President's
> > > hamster?
> Found myself thinking about this...
> He's a con artist. One who, like Vila, seems to have some natural
> resistance to being tinkered witih to fit into society. That squeaky
> clean image, fresh face and niave expression all help him lure rich
> ALpha's into investing money in his start-up businesses... which never
> materialize, he disappears and resurfaces a few weeks later with a
> different name, etc. His 'honest face' is EXACTLY what makes him so
> effective.

Well done for this Helen! I feel ashamed of my dismissal of Nova's villainy - 
have I forgotten the lessons I learned from "mission to destiny" and "assassin" 
(and almost every other episode, though I can't be bothered to defend that 
statement) - NEVER TRUST the one who looks innocent??

Love, Ika



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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 18:51:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Gareth's plays
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0705175122-ab5Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
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Gareth Thomas will play Oberon/Theseus in 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' from 8th
September until 21st October and then also a major role in 'Dear Brutus' by J.M.
Barrie, which opens 29th September for one week, then the two plays are in rep
until 21st October.

On 3 dates you can see both shows on the same day.

7 October - 2.30pm 'Dear Brutus', then 7.45pm 'A Midsummer Night's Dream.'

14 October and 21 October - 2.30pm 'A Midsummer Night's Dream' and then
7.45pm 'Dear Brutus'.

On the dates with both shows, the theatre has a special deal including dinner
between the shows if you book for both. The prices for the Dream ticket to see
both plays and a meal are £26.95 for standard seats and light main course meal
or £37.95 for first class seats and a 3 course meal.

The above information comes from Horizon and from Hazel Trenbirth.

I'll be taking a group, but haven't picked a date yet.  It may depend on what
works best for Jenny who will be over from Australia around that time.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed Jul  5 20:12:13 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Simpsons (was Greco-Roman comedy) 
Message-Id: <200007051917.UAA24042@smtp.uk2net.com>

Dana:

> No doubt because I'm working on the B7 "Some LIke it Hot" so saxophones
> are much on my mind...but I can DEFINITELY see Avon as Lisa, watching
> Bart Blake write "I will only blow up central computer systems that have
> computers in them...."


And now so can I, damn you!

Love,
Ika

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Date: Wed Jul  5 20:22:40 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-Id: <200007051928.UAA24145@smtp.uk2net.com>

Mistral:
> > And <sigh> before anybody flames me for taking this position,
> 

Fiona/Nyder:

> Flame you? Misty, you said what I wanted to say and better than I ever could
> say it. Thanks.


Ditto.

Love,
Ika

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Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:17:10 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] After the revolution - The power of delta's
Message-ID: <000201bfe852$bd48f260$6730073e@leanet>
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>
>> There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says:
>>
>> > the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change
>>
>> As a member of the Lower Grades I'd just like to say that this is
manifestly
>> not the case.
>
><much wisdom snipped>
>
>I'm jumping in here because this discussion has been bugging me a bit, and
>I want to articulate why.
>
>There seems to be this assumption that the 'lower grades' are effectively
>apolitical, through choice or apathy. Does no-one remember Red Clydeside?
>The 'lower grades' can be intelligent, literate, well-informed and highly
>politicised.


Iain,

Another thing that is bugging me, is our use of the term "lower grades" when
referring to IRL comparisons.

You are of course absolutely correct, and as a union member, if fully
subscribe to your view of the non ruling / non privileged population being
intelligent, literate, well informed, politicised etc. However, the major
examples of the inherent power vesting in these people being exercised
typically occurs where the illusion of gradual improvement in material
conditions is not present, and so there is no vested interest in the status
quo.

Imagine it this way....., take any example IRL you like. After a certain
point in time, an upsurge in dissatisfaction leads to change. However,
leading up to that time, when things were as bad as people later complained
about, how many people stuck their necks out to say so. Usually there are
initially a few individuals who push things, and often they meet initial
resistance from the very people they are trying to help. Somebody needs to
draw everybody's attention to the problem.

Back on topic. Blake is one such man. Maybe he can't achieve much directly
himself, as we have all said. Maybe the Freedom Party realise this, and the
whole outer planet strategy thing is to distract the Federation and give the
"lower grades" time to listen to the message, and take action in their own
way. So Blake's actions, which may be viewed as bordering on terrorism, were
intended to draw attention to the problems, and create the legend, provide a
focus, and a reason.

Gnog

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:20:05 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution 
Message-ID: <000301bfe852$bef43160$6730073e@leanet>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Alison

>There seems to be a bit of a consensus on the list that as Andrew says:
>> the "Lower Grades" have nothing material to gain by change


As usual, I apologise unreservedly if my "conversational" style of writing
e-mails has caused offence. I tend not to study each line to carefully
weight all possible interpretations of what I say.

I'm going to chop your post around a little, bit.

>My grandmother and I were both born to
>homeless households without a breadwinner. She is under five feet tall,
with
>only basic education, and she nearly died in childbirth without
anaesthetic.
>I am six inches taller than her, I've been to University, and I had full
>surgical attention which saved my life in childbirth. I work for 8 hours a
>day, she worked for 14. These are not trivial differences. I actually think
>such a 'material gain' is literally worth dying for.

Firstly, congratulations on your achievements, and the hard work of your
grandmother and mother.

>What I'm saying is that clearly the lower classes can benefit from change,

Such as your good self clearly, and I trust the population at large, to
varying extents. And I think we would all agree that it is a good thing.
But, the point of the discussion is, that whilst such clear material
improvement from generation to generation is worth some sacrifice, the
number of people willing to actually take the risk of making the sacrifice
is small. Especially if the sacrifice is liable to be large, and the benefit
uncertain. That is, the vast majority of people, whilst they would welcome
material change, won't actually do anything about it. So you have a stable
society, offering the appearance of gradual self betterment (through for
example educational opportunities) to keep people content.

You cited a few examples where change has brought material gain to the
"lower grades" IRL.

>This can be gradualist
>change (as in the UK in the last century) or precipitate change (as in
South
>America under Simon Bolivar). An explicit political program can (to take an
>example) reduce deaths in childbirth, decrease infant mortality, increase
>average heights by inches within decades, increase life expectancy by
years,
>eliminate rickets, improve literacy (this is particularly true for female
>literacy levels) and so on virtually indefinitely.
>


Please correct me if I am wrong, but all of these examples are examples of
change being driven by the "privileged grades", albeit for the benefit of
the "lower grades". And let us salute the *motives* of such individuals IRL
(eg Simon Bolivar) and in B7 (Blake), even if there success rate (or even
possibility of success) is somewhat different.

Gnog

p.s. In a post after this one, Niel puts it quite nicely, distinguishing
between circumstances where people will press for "reform", and
circumstances where people will shy away from "revolution".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2000 22:15:48 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] After the revolution - one possible scenario
Message-ID: <000101bfe852$bc3c6460$6730073e@leanet>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hellen,

Thanks for taking this idea

>>From: Andrew Ellis:
>>Was what Blake wanted a kind of
>>splitting up of planetary systems with a turbulent past, lots of
>>intermingling and different ideals? A bit like the Balkans then.
>>Might be a good idea
>

And extrapolating it, through your first hand experience, to the sort of
post Federation galaxy that Blake might have had in mind.

>Ha! Nice sample. I live there, but I didn't thought about it... Well, as
the
>Balkans were part of the Soviet block and as such they acted as one single
>economical and political body, we *can* compare them to the Federation.

..... lots a good ideas.....



>>...I just hope Blake puts the right people in
>>the right places to keep the whole thing stable.
>
>I do not think this is Blake's job - to "put" or remove governing bodies.
>The very idea of the change is to let the planets and their people to make
>*their* choice who will rule them. IMO.

Indeed, in this scenario, any "putting" would probably do more harm than
good.

Gnog.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 22:52:22 CEST
From: "Jurgen van de Sanden" <blakes7@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Zenith & Sally Knyvette
Message-ID: <20000705205222.62128.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

My copy of the Zenith magazine arrived today. Thank you so much, Judith. I 
hope you've received my money by now.
I have only managed to browse through the magazine, but what I've seen so 
far was truly wonderful! Andy and Allan really did a great job! Zenith is of 
the same class as the latest Horizon magazines. Count me in as one of those 
who'd like more issues to be made.
There was something about the review of 'Trial' by Jim Smith that I didn't 
like, though. He wrote that Sally Knyvette didn't appear to give a 
performance at all. Does anybody else on this list think so? It's not the 
first time poor Sally is criticised of bad acting in a particular episode. 
In Horizon 39 both Sally and Jan are criticised of overacting during the 
scene of their faked fight together in 'Gambit'. IMO Sally plays Jenna's 
part in 'Trial' very well, like she always does. I love her line to Avon at 
the beginning: "What would you know about guilt?", which she delivers in a 
very bitter way. Later in the episode, she gets irritated by both Vila and 
Avon: "You two make me sick. Are we going to get out of here, or aren't 
we?". This is another wonderful Jenna moment for me.
It's very interesting to see how she is affected by Blake's message. Sally 
gives a very subtle performance when she walks away without saying a word 
after Avon says "Jenna?". I love the way she moves the skin on her forehead 
(Sorry about the bad explanation) before she moves away from her console. 
She does exactly the same thing in some other episodes, e.g. in 'Redemption' 
and I think it's very effective.
Finally, I really enjoy the scene when she smiles at Avon because she's 
beating him at the game (What's the name of the game?). This is Jenna at her 
best, showing that she can beat Avon any time. :-)

Jurgen
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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 21:54:44 +0100
From: "sowtermj" <sowtermj@northnotts-gofree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, "Ika" <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188
Message-ID: <000801bfe6c3$406c16e0$6cccb0c2@Sowtermj>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Can anyone tell me how to stop getting this newsgroup.
Many regards Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ika" <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: 05 July 2000 21:22
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #188


>
>
> Mistral:
> > > And <sigh> before anybody flames me for taking this position,
> >
>
> Fiona/Nyder:
>
> > Flame you? Misty, you said what I wanted to say and better than I ever
could
> > say it. Thanks.
>
>
> Ditto.
>
> Love,
> Ika
>
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>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 14:30:01 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] After the revolution - The power of delta's
Message-ID: <20000705213001.62066.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Gnog wrote:
<So Blake's actions, which may be viewed as bordering on terrorism, were 
intended to draw attention to the problems, and create the legend, provide a 
focus, and a reason.>

Quoting one of his greatest non-fans:

"Stories of his exploits are still circulating. They excite people. The fact 
that he is still free gives them hope. And that is dangerous, Travis. Hope 
is very dangerous." (Servalan, Project Avalon)

Have to admit, 'twas with this sentence that I *really* fell in love with 
Fearless Leader ... the gift of hope being IMHO without price.





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Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 22:47:43 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution 
Message-ID: <01c101bfe6cb$fc89c4a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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gnog/Andrew said -

>As usual, I apologise unreservedly if my "conversational" style of writing
>e-mails has caused offence.

I don't take offence: as Vila and Trish say: 'I don't mind rough' (ish)

> the
>number of people willing to actually take the risk of making the sacrifice
>is small. Especially if the sacrifice is liable to be large, and the
benefit
>uncertain.

This is so true. Feminism is a case in point. Lot of people happy to benefit
from the protection of laws, not so many prepared to stand up and fight for
those laws. But, then this reluctance is to some extent both rational and
human.

So, yes I agree with you about that. But don't you think that saying 'there
is nothing to gain' positively encourages that attitude? In a way 'there is
nothing to gain' is a one-phrase summary of conservatism.

>Please correct me if I am wrong, but all of these examples are examples of
>change being driven by the "privileged grades", albeit for the benefit of
>the "lower grades".

Now I do disagree with you on that. For example 'votes for women' wasn't an
idea invented by men (though a lot of good men supported it), safety in coal
mines was fought for by coal miners, Catholics (to take Una's example)
fought for the right to go to University etc.

God, this is getting off topic. Right. IMHO real change comes from process
not form. If Blake really wanted to subvert the federation he would have to
stop being an alpha benefactor and empower the workers to lead their own
revolt. Bit of an odd TV show though.

Alison

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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #191
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