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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 212

Today's Topics:
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  [B7L] Orbit                           [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Croucher Underwear          [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Croucher Underwear          [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: [B7L] Jarriere (was: Croucher Un  [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  Re: Re [B7L] You boring bastards:)    [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "David A McIntee" <Master@allisurve ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ "David A McIntee" <Master@allisurve ]
  Re: [B7L] Jackie Pearce contact info  [ "Mark Spencer" <mark_r_spencer@hotm ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmai ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac. ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmai ]
  Re: [B7L]Unpopular episodes (was Cal  [ "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmai ]
  Re: [B7L]Unpopular episodes (was Cal  [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: Re [B7L] You boring bastards:)    [ B7Morrigan@aol.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Vila as perfect gentleman   [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest            [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  [B7L] Re: ADMIN: Just a test message  [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]
  [B7L] Re: Marvel & B7                 [ rpdavies@excite.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
  Re: [B7L] Orbit                       [ B7Morrigan@aol.com ]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:21:51 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <006f01bff69f$ecdcf5c0$5f6a4e0c@dshilling>
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Marian said:
> 
> Later she's suffering from the same inertia when she stands watching the
> fight between Dayna and Jarvik.  Doesn't it occur to her to give Dayna a
> hand?  [...] 
> Can anyone think of a better explanation?
I believe it was Joe Queenan, film critic and all-around smartarse, who
defined the action movie trope of "the ancient Oriental martial art 
of lining up and taking a number" so the hero can beat up an entire
mob of enemies. EVERYONE in this episode seems to be a practitioner.

-(Y)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:21:23 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <LAW-F6x4XFKpRcTCi900000050a@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After Marian wrote:
<Tarrant grabs Cally's arm, pulling her away quite roughly, and she
doesn't react al all!>

Mistral replied:
<I thought she was quite disturbed by her encounter with the Sopron,
and too distracted by that to pay attention to Tarrant.>

Agreed. Cally's been acting rather strangely for a while (Dawn and
here) anyway. The business with the Sopron seems to be upsetting her,
and quite possibly she's so relieved to get away that she doesn't
*care* how.

Also, Tarrant does have good reason for getting annoyed (and he does
*sometimes* get physical when he is upset). Yes, it's the second most 
uninspiring battle in B7 history - the one at the end of Breakdown winning 
first place - but even if Avon *was* bored by it all, wandering off to play 
scientist is taking the "you're the Great Fighter, *you* fight" bit rather 
too far (even if I love it).

<Later she's suffering from the same inertia when she stands watching
the fight between Dayna and Jarvik.  Doesn't it occur to her to give
Dayna a hand?>

Reminds me of Avon and Tarrant doing the same when Dayna's taking care
of Klegg in Powerplay. Maybe they just don't like to interrupt her
when she's playing with a new toy ...





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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:22:38 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <LAW-F185BP8xidGVwPG000003a9@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Marian wrote:
<I hate this episode for the impossible position it puts Avon in.
(Blake is never saddled with that kind of choice.  :-( )>

Probably because, Blake being [a] the eponymous hero and [b] errr ...
Blake, there really isn't that much dramatic tension in the idea of
'would he die for a fellow crew member'? 'cause yes, of course he
would, and with precious little angsting over it. (Give up the
Liberator, no. They could IMO have made more of this point in he
torture scene in Horizon).

What would be more interesting would be throwing Blake the kind of brutal 
curve ball Avon gets in Stardrive (Dr Plaxton) or Warlord (Zeeona).

Conversely, putting someone like Servalan in the situation in Orbit
would also be devoid of dramatic tension since there's no question but that 
she *would* have killed the other person, without a particle of the angst 
that makes it so fascinating with Avon.


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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:23:10 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Croucher Underwear
Message-ID: <LAW-F91C81TbdkSmLAz00006cd8@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After Jacqueline wrote: <Any of the others would we acceptable, too
(like Michael Keating, for instance)>

Harriet added: <[Putting up hand hopefully] Harry Jones?>

Oh yes yes yes (mind you, it *isn't* his body I love him for. It's ...
it's ...)

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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:23:56 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <LAW-F250acUtI9dm5Ux0000625e@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After Marian wrote:
<By the way, why do we never perceive Vila's view of women as
lust-objects offensive?  If Avon or Tarrant talked about them in that
way we probably *would* take offence yet Vila can get away with it.>

Betty suggested:
<IMO, it's because he's obviously harmless.  He's all talk, and not
particularly serious talk, at that.>

The 'virgins in red fur' is really no more offensive than those of us
who dream of Avon in red leather (or out of it for that matter). It's
pure fantasy. And given the increasing grimness of his life at this
time, I can hardly begrudge him his fantasy.

With his crewmates, I think part of it is probably that Dayna and
Soolin are clearly more than capable of putting a complete stop to it
- and him - if they really wanted to.  Vila is surrounded by women who are 
seriously tougher than he is - and in fact, the case of Vena from Headhunter 
indicates that where the woman is *not* able to take care of herself/him, he 
behaves much better ("I was a perfect gentleman"). They may get irritated at 
times, but they don't take it seriously.

It's also hard to get upset at him when you suspect that if Dayna,
Soolin or Jenna actually took him up on his suggestions, it'd scare
him out of ten years' growth - and they know it.





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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 12:33:40 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Croucher Underwear
Message-ID: <20000726023340.88815.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
>Harriet added: <[Putting up hand hopefully] Harry Jones?>
>Oh yes yes yes (mind you, it *isn't* his body I love him for. It's ...
>it's ...)

Acute mind rather than a cute body, right, Sally?

Regards
Joanne
(scuttling quickly off to lunch)


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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 02:37:34 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jarriere (was: Croucher Underwear)
Message-ID: <LAW-F102xHrgKbBR42X00006a0d@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After I wrote:
<Oh yes yes yes (mind you, it *isn't* his body I love him for. It's ... it's 
...)>

Joanne suggested:
<Acute mind rather than a cute body, right, Sally?>

Errr. Umm. Yes that must be it.

You've got to admit my taste in heroes is not totally conventional. Fearless 
Leader, the Snarly (but Beautiful) One ... and Jarriere.



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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:55:24 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <20000725.225615.-495755.5.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
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On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:36:16 +0200 "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
writes:
> I've been tormenting myself yesterday by watching Orbit, one of my 
> least
> favourite episodes.  It always makes me wonder what the director was
> thinking - that he was doing a pantomime?  (I suppose it's not 
> entirely his
> fault, the script may have given him that impression).
> 
> Egrorian and Pinder are painful to watch

I don't know.  Leave a mad scientist and a twenty year old prematurely
aged to the point of senility alone on a planet for ten years and see
what you get.

 and it becomes absolute 
> agony when
> Avon starts imitating them - his "Avon in the privateer Scorpio" 
> reply and
> later that daft giggling with Egrorian.

I thought he was just playing along with Egrorian's obvious mental
instability, somewhere between pretending to buy everything Egrorian's
telling him and humoring the unstable nut case.

Don't have clue where Vila was coming from.

> This episode contains more silly laughter than the rest of the 
> entire series
> put together.

Someone forgot to tell Slave to put air in the _main_ cabin.  It happens.
 Or maybe they forgot to specify what kind of air ("I'm sorry, Master,
but the nitrous oxide was on sale last week").

However, what I find disturbing is Avon's earlier treatment of Vila. 
Avon's almost never like that with the crew.  They know him and expect
worse of him.  That cheerful good nature usually only shows up with
people he isn't planning to work with very long - most often ones he
intends to con or (let's be honest) stab in the back (usually more
metaphorically than in this ep).

The problem is that personality manifests _before_ he has any reason to
be after Vila - but when he's making the primary decision that would
otherwise have gotten Vila killed (if he'd gone with anyone else, they
would have survived or put up enough of a fight [if they didn't decide to
try and throw him off first (Soolin would have thought of it)] that
Avon's guilt levels wouldn't have been nearly as high [the others also
wouldn't have depended on him as much to be getting them out alive (Avon
would have considered that blinding themselves to facts, but that's
another issue)]), as if he knows what he's doing before he knows what
he's doing - or _could_ know.

Then, he brings a gun he _knows_ he won't be able to use off the ship
(since I thought the teleport problem was getting a fix to teleport
_onto_ a moving object [the bracelets overcoming this problem for anyone
needing to get off], he also way overlooked a more useful escape plan [if
nothing else, he could have said, "Vila, there's a small chance you can
survive teleporting off this thing and no chance if you stay.  Go,
now."]).

Of course, I'm trying to put together a story where Orac (influenced by a
certain alien) was trying to push Avon into killing one of the crew
(minor telepathic influence stuff), but it makes more sense than some of
the alternatives, IMHO.

And, yes, I agree with the three way split on Avon's mind in this
situation.

Ellynne
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Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 22:39:38 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <20000725.225615.-495755.4.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
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On Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:29:24 +0200 "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
writes:
> 
> The thing that riles me most in Harvest of Kairos (even more than 
> the silly
> macho behaviour of that pig Jarvik and Avon's uncharacteristic 
> disregard for
> his own and Liberator's safety) is the scene where Tarrant 
> interrupts Cally
> and Avon when they're studying the Sopron.  Tarrant grabs Cally's 
> arm,
> pulling her away quite roughly, and she doesn't react al all!

I haven't seen this episode for ages (don't have it on video), so I'm
guessing a lot here, but maybe the stone effected Cally more than she'd
let on?

The stone was able to project a _telepathic_ image to Cally, one with
plenty of interesting implications.

1) Sensing supposedly dead people was more disturbing than Cally let on. 
If Aurons are supposed to be the type of telepath who go through high
stress feeling near and dear die (Children of Auron seems inconclusive on
this point, IMHO), it may be even more stressful and traumatic to find
something trying to convince them the earlier impression is wrong.  Kind
of like having phantom pain telling you a missing limb is still there and
hurting even though you know it's gone, only more so.  Little things like
Tarrant being aggressive might not have registered properly.

2) Avon's analysis of the stone was incomplete and overly reflective of
his dog eat dog world view.  The stone was also able to put out a
slightly distorted image that lowered defenses, allowing it to lull
aggressive tendencies (if this is the case, we have a big explanation for
a lot of stuff, especially if Avon also has minor telepathic abilities
and the stone was lulling him into not responding to a dangerous
situation on the ship).  If it could effect nontelepaths, this might also
explain Servalan jumping ship (does this mean Jarvik lacked imagination
or the sense to back down from a fight his inner senses were screaming he
couldn't win?).

3) The rock wasn't as imbobile as they thought.  Cally had been hit in
the head with it.

4) I know, if I just work at it, I can come up with a connection between
the spiders, the stuff on Kairos and the rock.  It would help if the rock
had come from Kairos and could be considered a mature form of the...
stuff [sorry, just pulling blank (isn't that how a lot of people deal
with this episode?)] that went into it's nondormant phase and started
killing people who had been harvesting the minors with images from their
own minds.  The first rock was relatively benign (or went for a lower key
attack, given it was outnumbered).  The spiders were a distorted,
childhood fear of Cally's that, what with her telepathy effecting things,
everyone got to enjoy.  However, they were being used to warn off the
crew instead of attack, since none of them had harvested anything.  When
Cally wasn't interfering in the fight, she was actually having her mind
checked out by the rocks, who eventually concluded the best thing they
could do was help the people fighting the people harvesting their
kiddies.
>
If this didn't sound almost like another Cally getting taken over by
aliens story, I think I'd go for it.  Obviously, some work is needed.

Now, if maybe Cally had _planned_ this to get the crew to strike a blow
for the oppressed (rocks or not), which they'd gotten out of the habit
of, and if Jarvik was the jerk her sister used to date that the family
warned her against but she wouldn't listen till it was too late, there
are possibilities.  Awkward ones, but there might be something
salvegeable here.

Ellynne
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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:18:57 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <000601bff6d0$4df07d20$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: <mistral@ptinet.net>
> Marian de Haan wrote:
>
> > All right, let's indulge Neil by starting some *serious* B7 discussion.
>
> I'm afraid this is character-centric; I don't think that falls under
Neil's
> definition of serious. OTOH, it is about Cally...

It's not that I consider character-centric discussion to be frivolous, at
least not through simply being character-centric.  I find it difficult to
pitch in, though, because of some of the implicit assumptions that are
brought to it, particularly the idea of characters being more or less
consistent (and since real people in real life are frequently quite
inconsistent from time to time, some more often than others, why shouldn't
fictional characters be likewise?).

Also, a lot of the discussion seems to come loaded with tacit assumptions
about a particular character, which are treated as if they were undisputed
fact yet are as often as not merely a subjective interpretation, quite
possibly unique for whoever's discussing that character.  That makes talking
across each other almost inevitable, and from where I'm sitting not
generally worth the effort.  Character buffs might well counterargue that
that's half of the fun of the discussion.  Chacun a son goute.

As to Cally in Harvest, it was a shit script by a shit writer, so I don't
really give a toss who does what.  Episodes like this aren't worth the waste
of energy consumed in discussing them.

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 00:58:19 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] You boring bastards:)
Message-ID: <000701bff6d0$4edb7960$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: <mistral@ptinet.net>
> We're saving the good stuff for after you get back to the ratrace;
> leaves you time to work on a fic :)

What rat race is that, then?  You don't think I work in a dead-end job with
zero promotion prospects out of necessity, do you?

And you expect me to be creative on the week I try to quit smoking?

Slip me the name of the planet you're on, it sounds like a really nice
place:)

Neil

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:55:27 +0100
From: "David A McIntee" <Master@allisurvey.freeserve.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-Id: <E13HM6b-0003SC-00.2000-07-26-08-59-53@mail12.svr.pol.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

----------
> From: Marian de Haan <maya@multiweb.nl>
> The thing that riles me most in Harvest of Kairos (even more than the
silly
> macho behaviour of that pig Jarvik 

The thing is, Jarvik is written quite inconsistently - with Servalan he's
the macho pig, and with the rest he's a gentleman of honour, IIRC.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:57:02 +0100
From: "David A McIntee" <Master@allisurvey.freeserve.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-Id: <E13HM6c-0003SC-00.2000-07-26-08-59-55@mail12.svr.pol.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

----------
> From: Marian de Haan <maya@multiweb.nl>
> 
> I've been tormenting myself yesterday by watching Orbit, one of my least
> favourite episodes.  It always makes me wonder what the director was
> thinking - that he was doing a pantomime?  (I suppose it's not entirely
his
> fault, the script may have given him that impression).

I thought I was the only one who hated Orbit.

> I hate this episode for the impossible position it puts Avon in.  (Blake
is
> never saddled with that kind of choice.  :-( )  Yet Avon going after Vila
> with that gun is a tremendous powerful scene, acted very well and making
up
> somewhat for Egrorian's OTT performance.

Um, no - it's always made me wonder whether it's Darrow acting well to show
us Avon can't act; or whether it's just Darrow being unable to act...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:29:23 GMT
From: "Mark Spencer" <mark_r_spencer@hotmail.com>
To: blake@gaudaprime.co.uk
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jackie Pearce contact info?
Message-ID: <F236oBDyseVwrblZz0200004459@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Ika wrote:

>As many of you know, I have the honour of sharing a house
>with a Jackie Pearce/Servalan obsessive. She's got a birthday
>coming up in a couple of months (and I've heard it takes JP
>forever to reply to mail, so I want to get on with this)
>- I'd really like to send Jackie P a card to sign for her.

>1. Would this be really cheeky?

Not at all, I think Jacqueline would be happy to do it. Admittedly, 
assumption is the mother of all fuck-ups, but my experience of her is that 
she's very accommodating to requests like this. Actually, I just think she's 
lovely, so I may well be biased... ;-) When people refer to someone as 
having "it", I think Jacqueline must have been handed a bucket of the stuff 
at birth. Ahh, I'm going all gooey-eyed now...

>2. Does anyone have Jackie Pearce's agent's address or other
>contact info? I had a quick look round Judith's site and the
>Horizon site but couldn't find anything useful.

Try emailing Alex who runs The Who Shop in East Ham (whoshop@hilly.com, 
www.thewhoshop.com), as she's taken Jacqueline under her wing (if that were 
at all possible!) and is, in fact, helping her move house this weekend. Alex 
would be a good place to start, as she was responsible for Jacqueline 
turning up unnanounced at the Nexus convention during Paul Darrow's talk. 
Even if Alex can't help directly, she's very likely to know who to put you 
in contact with.

>Love,
>Ika

One more thing as a word to the wise - DON'T call Jacqueline anything other 
than Jacqueline. "Jackie" is a *deeply* bad idea. It's not that the divine 
Ms. P. has a *big* problem about it, but it's her preferred term of address.

Hope I've been of some use,

-Mark.

(struggling against slings 'n' arrows to get H40 out within his lifetime...)
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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:53:39 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <20000726085339.1284.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Marian:
>By the way, why do we never perceive Vila's view of women as lust-objects
>offensive?  If Avon or Tarrant talked about them in that way we probably
>*would* take offence yet Vila can get away with it.  Maybe because we don't
>take him seriously?  Or his remarks are simply too childish?


Haven't seen Orbit but thats mostly what I hated about "City on the edge of 
the world". I just hated the way Vila (and whoever wrote the thing) seemed 
to think Kerroll had some sort of duty to be appealing. And even more that 
she complied with his wishes. She started off quite an interesting character 
and by the end was reduced to wall-hanging seemingly created to make Vila 
look better. I know that wasn't all Vila but his comment at the end about 
hoping all his mistakes had good legs really got to me.

Jessica
" The stories are entertainment for mortals, but the events themselves are 
entertainment for gods."

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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 10:13:32 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.1000726100707.17731A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 26 Jul 2000, Neil Faulkner wrote:

> As to Cally in Harvest, it was a shit script by a shit writer, so I don't
> really give a toss who does what.  Episodes like this aren't worth the waste
> of energy consumed in discussing them.

An excellent point, Neil, and one which bears repeating. I know, finding
in-story explanations for what are clearly production failures is supposed
to be half the fun, but in some cases the pretence of taking a pile of
steaming poo seriously is just more trouble than it's worth.

Iain

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:28:33 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <20000726092833.33180.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>As to Cally in Harvest, it was a shit script by a shit writer, so I don't
>really give a toss who does what.  Episodes like this aren't worth the 
>waste
>of energy consumed in discussing them.
>
>Neil
>

It seems to be the less popular episodes/characters/themes that spark the 
most discussion, I've noticed. Like the lengthy discussions about episodes 
like Animals and Orbit that so many people seem to have hated or characters 
like Jarvik.

This is probably because its more fun to discuss things when people 
disagree, to use the Animals example an awful lot of posts were spent last 
month (and no doubt countless messages before then) with Una and co sayin 
why they enjoyed animals and people agreeing/disagreeing, it wouldn't have 
been nearly as much fun if the episode in question had been Time Squad 
because part of the fun is hearing the arguement from the unpopular 
perspective.

Another reason why disliked themes may be a common discussion topic is 
because if people felt that an episode didn't make sense (like Cally in 
Harvest) or that they didn't like the way a character behaved, and while I 
agree with you that real people are inconsistent so why shouldn't characters 
be as well, I also think spending time analyzing characters motives and such 
has benefits in terms of getting a better not only of why characters do what 
they do, but of why people think of characters the way that they do.

Basically I see what you're saying but I don't agree with you about it being 
a complete waste of time discussing such episodes.

Jessica


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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:29:21 EST
From: "Jessica Taylor" <morgaine54@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Unpopular episodes (was Cally in Harvest)
Message-ID: <20000726092921.25226.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>As to Cally in Harvest, it was a shit script by a shit writer, so I don't
>really give a toss who does what.  Episodes like this aren't worth the 
>waste
>of energy consumed in discussing them.
>
>Neil
>

It seems to be the less popular episodes/characters/themes that spark the 
most discussion, I've noticed. Like the lengthy discussions about episodes 
like Animals and Orbit that so many people seem to have hated or characters 
like Jarvik.

This is probably because its more fun to discuss things when people 
disagree, to use the Animals example an awful lot of posts were spent last 
month (and no doubt countless messages before then) with Una and co sayin 
why they enjoyed animals and people agreeing/disagreeing, it wouldn't have 
been nearly as much fun if the episode in question had been Time Squad 
because part of the fun is hearing the arguement from the unpopular 
perspective.

Another reason why disliked themes may be a common discussion topic is 
because if people felt that an episode didn't make sense (like Cally in 
Harvest) or that they didn't like the way a character behaved, and while I 
agree with you that real people are inconsistent so why shouldn't characters 
be as well, I also think spending time analyzing characters motives and such 
has benefits in terms of getting a better not only of why characters do what 
they do, but of why people think of characters the way that they do.

Basically I see what you're saying but I don't agree with you about it being 
a complete waste of time discussing such episodes.

Jessica


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Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 06:52:26 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Unpopular episodes (was Cally in Harvest)
Message-ID: <db.75e4c54.26b01cea@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jessica wrote:

> It seems to be the less popular episodes/characters/themes that spark the 
>  most discussion, I've noticed. 

Good point.

>  Another reason why disliked themes may be a common discussion topic is 
>  because if people felt that an episode didn't make sense (like Cally in 
>  Harvest) or that they didn't like the way a character behaved, and while I 
>  agree with you that real people are inconsistent so why shouldn't 
characters 
>  be as well, I also think spending time analyzing characters motives and 
such 
>  has benefits in terms of getting a better not only of why characters do 
what 
>  they do, but of why people think of characters the way that they do.

Agreed.  I find the inconsistencies to be a wonderful challenge.  It's great 
fun to figure out why (or if) the character is being inconsistent and what 
motivated that behavior at that time.  It provides additional insight and 
fleshing out of the whole.  I've been enjoying the discussion about what made 
Cally meek in HoK.  It's not just that she isn't feisty, she's close to being 
spaced out part of the time.  As if she had something on her mind.  I like 
the theory that it had something to do with her reaction to the sopron.

Mark, I'm looking forward to H40.  Thanks for plugging away at it.

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:40:10 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <004501bff728$8e3a4840$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
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To my:
>> Later she's suffering from the same inertia when she stands watching the
fight between Dayna and Jarvik.  Doesn't it occur to her to give Dayna a
hand?<<

Mistral replied:
>Well, maybe as a warrior, she's honouring the concept of single
combat, which is what Jarvik and Dayna had agreed on. She didn't seem
pleased about it, but why would she interfere with Dayna's choice?<

I thought the agreement about the man-to-man fight was between Jarvik and
*Tarrant*.  I agree that Dayna might well resent Cally's interfering but I
doubt if chivalry would be Cally's main concern here :-)  Remember she's in
a tremendous hurry, under orders from Avon to "get Cally".  We can assume
that by now she knows Avon well enough to expect him to leave them behind if
they take too long in joining him.

So the practical thing would be to clobber Jarvik on the head, snatch back
the bracelets - Jarvik's too - and go back to Avon and the others real fast.
They can squabble about it later.

I'd love to have seen Jarvik left stranded with those ferocious spiders
[yes, I know, but they were *meant* to be ferocious <veg>].  The ideal
opportunity to prove he's a real man (even when there's no-one to applaud
him).  :-)

Actually, fastforwarding through all Jarvik's ranting and raping, Harvest of
Kairos is an episode I can enjoy.  The sopron is an original and amusing
life form, the idea of giant spiders needing Kairopan for their cobwebs
isn't bad - just badly executed, and that lunar module brings back fond
childhood memories.

Avon's face when he realises Servalan has outwitted him ("Yes, Zen, I know
Kairos is the nearest planet") just when he thinks he's outwitted her, is
priceless. IMHO.

Marian

------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 19:58:56 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <005701bff72b$32d46d20$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dana wrote:
>I believe it was Joe Queenan, film critic and all-around smartarse, who
>defined the action movie trope of "the ancient Oriental martial art of
lining up and taking a number" so the hero can beat up an entire mob of
enemies. EVERYONE in this episode seems to be a practitioner.<

Actually, I'm surprised that Avon doesn't interfere right at the start of
the contest between Jarvik and Tarrant.  Chivalry may be a wonderful thing,
they're hardly in a position to be able to afford it.  We know Avon isn't
averse to shooting people in the back, so why not overpower Jarvik while
he's busy fighting Tarrant.

Even if their bracelets aren't any use for them just then, they may come in
handy later if they find a way get Orac to teleport them back.  Also, by
taking Jarvik prisoner, they can use him as hostage.  [All right, they don't
know how much he's worth to Servalan, but since he's decorative :-) there's
just the possibility that she will hesitate to let Liberator's neutron
blasters destroy their refuge.]

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 14:46:48 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] You boring bastards:)
Message-ID: <99.81c2a51.26b08c18@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil 
>  
>  And you expect me to be creative on the week I try to quit smoking?

sublimate, perhaps you'll write some angst

Morrigan
"When I get a little money I buy zines; and if any is left I buy food and 
clothes."
(apologies to Erasmus)

------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:58:11 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <001701bff733$74246c00$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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To my:
><Tarrant grabs Cally's arm, pulling her away quite roughly, and she
>doesn't react al all!><

Sally commented:
>Also, Tarrant does have good reason for getting annoyed (and he does
*sometimes* get physical when he is upset).<

Indeed, but I think he should have grabbed *Avon*.  [But I suppose even
Tarrant isn't stupid enough for that.  He would have got a gun in his belly
real fast. :-)]

>Yes, it's the second most uninspiring battle in B7 history - the one at the
end of Breakdown winning first place - but even if Avon *was* bored by it
all, wandering off to play scientist is taking the "you're the Great
Fighter, *you* fight" bit rather too far (even if I love it).<

I do agree, it's totally out of character.  And yes, in a kind of perverse
way I love it too.

><Later she's suffering from the same inertia when she stands watching the
fight between Dayna and Jarvik.  Doesn't it occur to her to give Dayna a
hand?><

>Reminds me of Avon and Tarrant doing the same when Dayna's taking care of
Klegg in Powerplay. Maybe they just don't like to interrupt her when she's
playing with a new toy ...<

LOL.  But in Powerplay it was clear that Dayna didn't need their help.  Also
there they had all the time in the world.

Marian

------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:08:28 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as perfect gentleman (was Orbit)
Message-ID: <001e01bff734$e743bf00$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally wrote:
>Vila is surrounded by women who are seriously tougher than he is - and in
fact, the case of Vena from Headhunter indicates that where the woman is
*not* able to take care of herself/him, he behaves much better ("I was a
perfect gentleman").<

His behaviour still caused Avon and Tarrant to deem it necessary to get him
away from her pronto, which might indicate that Vila's idea of the behaviour
of a perfect gentleman differs somewhat from the accepted norm :-)

Marian

------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:21:25 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally in Harvest
Message-ID: <002501bff736$b16f0180$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Neil wrote:
>As to Cally in Harvest, it was a shit script by a shit writer, so I don't
really give a toss who does what.  Episodes like this aren't worth the waste
of energy consumed in discussing them.<

Just out of curiosity, Neil: which episodes do you consider worthy of
discussion?

Marian (enjoying all these character discussions tremendously)

------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 21:42:56 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <003001bff739$bbc04600$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Jessica wrote:
>Haven't seen Orbit but thats mostly what I hated about "City on the edge of
the world". I just hated the way Vila (and whoever wrote the thing) seemed
to think Kerroll had some sort of duty to be appealing. And even more that
she complied with his wishes. She started off quite an interesting character
and by the end was reduced to wall-hanging seemingly created to make Vila
look better. I know that wasn't all Vila but his comment at the end about
hoping all his mistakes had good legs really got to me.<

So I'm not the only one who noticed that and got annoyed by it?  Kerril is
the classical example of a B7 female character starting out strong and then
whimping out completely.  And here it takes only ten minutes or so instead
of a whole season. :-)  The rot sets in as soon as she follows Vila's advice
to take a bath.  The message seems to be that an assertive woman only needs
to exchange her trousers for a frock to turn into a meek dormouse.

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 16:00:36 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: ADMIN: Just a test message...
Message-ID: <200007261600_MC2-ADA0-62F@compuserve.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	 charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline

Calle wrote:
>...since one of the other admins at Lysator chose =

>to change the mail server to another machine (Sun =

>to SGI), another operating system (Solaris to Irix) =

>_and_ another software (sendmail to Postfix) while I
>was away on a cruise, and I want to make sure the =

>mailing list still works.

I was going to ask why the contents page changed format in your absence..=
 .and it looks horribly like the new system doesn't have that nice filter
that saves my posts from being mangled the way they are on Freedom City. =

I'm testing it by sending another one.  Suppose I need some non-standard
punctuation here !?! to complete the test.

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 13:07:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: rpdavies@excite.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Marvel & B7
Message-ID: <18797762.964642031992.JavaMail.imail@knuckles.excite.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marvel & Blake's 7 Magazines:
Didn't they have a magazine in the early 1980s & suddenly stopped it for
some reason.  What was happening at Marvel UK in the mid 1990s?  I can
remember a few Dr Who Specials where advertised but never appeared.  Around
this time they tried to launch a general cult TV magazine called Playback
which didn't last too long.  Has any got a copy of the B7 Xmas 1994 special
for sale at a reasonable price?  I tried to back order it but Marvel didn't
any in stock.  Contact me at rpdavies@excite.com.



Richard Davies






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------------------------------

Date:   Wed, 26 Jul 2000 22:12:38 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <005201bff73d$dd95a1e0$8fed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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To my:
>> Egrorian and Pinder are painful to watch<<

Ellynne wrote:
>I don't know.  Leave a mad scientist and a twenty year old prematurely aged
to the point of senility alone on a planet for ten years and see what you
get.<

That's probably the trouble for me: mad scientists are my number one pet
hate in science fiction, closely followed by superweapons. :-)


>> This episode contains more silly laughter than the rest of the
entire series put together.<<

>Someone forgot to tell Slave to put air in the _main_ cabin.  It happens.
Or maybe they forgot to specify what kind of air ("I'm sorry, Master, but
the nitrous oxide was on sale last week").<

ROFL

>However, what I find disturbing is Avon's earlier treatment of Vila.
Avon's almost never like that with the crew.  They know him and expect worse
of him.  That cheerful good nature usually only shows up with people he
isn't planning to work with very long - most often ones he intends to con or
(let's be honest) stab in the back (usually more
metaphorically than in this ep).<

>The problem is that personality manifests _before_ he has any reason to be
after Vila<

Yes, it's so obvious a set up it's grating

>Then, he brings a gun he _knows_ he won't be able to use off the ship<

It's only there so he can use it on Vila - a clumsy plot device

>(since I thought the teleport problem was getting a fix to teleport
_onto_ a moving object [the bracelets overcoming this problem for anyone
needing to get off], he also way overlooked a more useful escape plan [if
nothing else, he could have said, "Vila, there's a small chance you can
survive teleporting off this thing and no chance if you stay.  Go, now."]).<

Good point.  I hadn't thought of that.

Marian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 18:33:26 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <397F8356.AA0779D5@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ellynne G. wrote:

> Don't have clue where Vila was coming from.

Oh, Vila had little dollar signs in his eyes from thinking of all the
Really Great Things he could do/get/be if only he had a Tachyon Funnel,
and was thus humoring Egrorian up a storm, and scarely even bothered by
his ickiness.  Or such is my perception...

> However, what I find disturbing is Avon's earlier treatment of Vila.
> Avon's almost never like that with the crew.  They know him and expect
> worse of him.  That cheerful good nature usually only shows up with
> people he isn't planning to work with very long - most often ones he
> intends to con or (let's be honest) stab in the back (usually more
> metaphorically than in this ep).

He's just acting really weired throughout this whole episode.  Not just
a cheerful good mood -- bizarre enough for Avon -- he seems practically
*manic* (at least, to my eye).  And he doesn't seem to be excersising
his usual good judgment and caution, either.  My own personal theory
(which will probably surprise no one who knows me :)) is that he'd just
gotten a nice, solid lead on Blake...

-- 
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little 
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 20:38:54 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <77.757aee1.26b0de9e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Betty wrote re: Avon

>  He's just acting really weired throughout this whole episode.  Not just
>  a cheerful good mood -- bizarre enough for Avon -- he seems practically
>  *manic* (at least, to my eye).  And he doesn't seem to be excersising
>  his usual good judgment and caution, either.  My own personal theory
>  (which will probably surprise no one who knows me :)) is that he'd just
>  gotten a nice, solid lead on Blake...

Close, Betty, but really it is that Avon realized that when *he* had the 
Tachyon Funnel, he wouldn't have to look for Blake anymore, Blake would come 
to him since Avon would be pretty much setting terms for most of the galaxy.

Then he could give the damn thing to Blake and get back to whatever it was he 
still wanted in life, if he ever really knew.

Morrigan
"When I get a little money I buy zines; and if any is left I buy food and 
clothes."
(apologies to Erasmus)

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