From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #255 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/255 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 255 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion [ "Dana Shilling" ] [B7L] Re: evidence of religion in Bl [ Helen Krummenacker ] Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of religion [ "Ellynne G." ] [B7L] Re:monetary systems [ Helen Krummenacker ] [B7L] Wu names [ "Deborah Day" ] Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion [ Judith Proctor ] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:40:41 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <004c01c01acb$a5a34d80$1c684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith said: > > eg. Blimey and bloody both derive from 'By our Lady' or 'By Lady Mary'. I would dispute the etymology given in the program--I think "blimey" derives from the oath "May God blind me" (if I'm lying), as you can tell from the variant forms "Gorblimey" and "corblimey" and "bloody" comes from the habit of swearing by "God's blood" (Zounds = "by God's wounds"). In fact, come to think of it, that could explain why I have Vila says "blimey" fairly often when I'm writing fics--he's asking to be believed (often for statements with at least a modicum of untruth). -(Y) > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:50:37 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <004d01c01acb$a87b25a0$1c684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. said: > Wait, wait, wait. Now I'm intrigued. What do you mean? Avon keeps > lists of places he shouldn't show up? Why? I think he likes knowing things he isn't supposed to know >Because it would hurt the > image he's worked so hard to build up in the minds of everyone else (and > does that mean he goes in disguise?), He certainly doesn't mention it to anyone else in the crew >because he's not certain what a > splash of holy water would do to him, or because of a joke I'm missing > entirely? Not a joke at all--I don't think it would ever be possible to stamp out religion entirely (it certainly wasn't under Communist regimes). My current fictional position is that various forms of religion survive in semi-underground or underground status, and that one reason Avon feels like an outsider is being a "cradle Catholic". And, although he has certainly never allowed concepts of virtue to deter him from anything he really felt like doing, the way I write it, Catholicism has been very influential on him emotionally. One reason I find "Terminal" so poignant is that I'm convinced that Avon believes that going there will result not only in his immediate death but his eternal damnation. I find it very interesting that in B7, the few references to religion are quite negative--I would have expected, for instance, for at least one group of resisters to be religiously inspired. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:53:56 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <004e01c01acb$aac69c40$1c684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. said: > > Maybe they thought it was the Lion's Club or a Fraternity? Good point! > > > I don't know. The Federation seems very much the kind of regime that > would discourage religion for a variety of reasons. Unless it would coopt religion, or establish a state religion as an additional means of control. >There's also little > to know evidence of religion playing any part in dayly life except for a > few nonTerran 'primitives' (penal colonists and nonhumans [who, > suspiciously, seem to share out identical chant CDs]). And the same robe suppliers. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:55:32 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: Subject: Re: Re [B7L] New zine - submissions wanted Message-ID: <004f01c01acb$acde31a0$1c684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ika said: > What's the difference? Would I be correct in thinking smut would be graphic sex > calculated to arouse the reader and possibly tempt them in the direction of > Onan? What if the new frame captures encourage us to scatter our CDs on the ground? -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:00:41 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7- religion Message-ID: <005001c01acb$aedee3a0$1c684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith said: > Those who have only had a basic > education and who have been exposed to Federation propaganda most of their lives > (GAn) will know almost nothing of religion. Those who deal with the underground > will probably know people in churches (Vila) and those with a good education in > history (Blake and other Alphas) will also know the basic concepts of religion. But I think that it's a basic human impulse to wonder about cosmogeny, and to try to derive ethical principles for conduct (other than "ooops, it's the slave pits of Ursa Prime if I get caught"). Intelligent and thoughtful people have come up with very different answers to the questions, but I don't see how the Federation could stop people from asking. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:02:52 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "B7 Mailing List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna's Skills Message-ID: <005101c01acb$b0eed7e0$1c684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve said: > > I guess she's shown she's an excellent pilot from Breakdown, where she had > to pilot the Liberator without any computer help. In Redemption, however, > she shows hardly any combat tactical skills. During the attack by the > Liberator style ships, she's basically doing what Blake tells her too. Being a good pilot is not necessarily a military skill--she might be great at coping with a broken fuel line or getting through an asteroid field, without really knowing what to do when the shooting starts. > > I also wondered where Blake himself would have picked up space battle > techniques, unless his previous uprising took to space - but I doubt that > actually happened. I think he just likes ordering people around. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 22:18:17 EDT From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: freedom-city@blakes-7.org, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: More rare and out-of-print B7 zines added... Message-ID: <47.9c5d4f.26ec4969@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The first lot of rare and out-of-print B7 fanzines from the 80's is about to roll off at the Ashton7 eBay auction page. A brand new lot of classic zines has been added at the bottom. Don't forget to drop by and check on the status of your current bids, or else see if there are any new goodies to capture your interest. Good luck! Site at: http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ashton7/ eBay View About Me for ashton7 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:35:02 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: B7 Lyst Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <39BAF356.C49383A2@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dana Shilling wrote: > And, although > he has certainly never allowed concepts of virtue to deter him from > anything he really felt like doing, the way I write it, Catholicism has > been very influential on him emotionally. Although I know I've said to you before that I just cannot bring myself to buy a religious Avon, there is something about the whole Catholic guilt thing that does seem strangely appropriate for him. :) > One reason I find "Terminal" > so poignant is that I'm convinced that Avon believes that going there > will result not only in his immediate death but his eternal damnation. Eh? Now *this* interests me. I can think of a great many things Avon has done that would merit eternal damnation from a Catholic standpoint, but going to Terminal certainly doesn't seem like one of them. -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:06:28 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: evidence of religion in Blake's 7 Message-ID: <39BAFAB3.D07@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > However, none of this, Avon's salvation comment and the Go to > Hell--Probably exchange make me believe that any of the conversationalists > were actively religious, or that they believed what they said literally. It > just suggests that the cultural reference still survives. For eg, I > regularly use religious imagery in speech (and I don't just mean swearing) > and it even creeps into my writing occasionally, without any active belief. > It's merely a convenient set of references. > > Tavia Absolutely true! I wrote a fanfic once where Avon *literally* goes to Hell (and so do most of the rest, eventually). I based it on the 'deal with the devil' concept well known in popular fiction, ala "The Devil and Dan Webster" among many other sources. Dante's Inferno was a major source. But I am not myself a believer in the possibility of Hell. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2000 21:50:27 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of religion Message-ID: <20000909.215029.-78453.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 9 Sep 2000 10:00:09 +0100 Tavia Chalcraft writes: > Vila's 'I'm in Hell and it's full of Avon's' suggests a certain > knowledge > of the possibility of an afterlife of punishment. > > However, none of this, Avon's salvation comment and the Go to > Hell--Probably exchange make me believe that any of the > conversationalists > were actively religious, or that they believed what they said > literally. Oh, I quite agree. I also don't think there are many churches that would want admit either of these two were members, even if they were. In fact, I can think of some that wouldn't let them join (in Servalan's case, there are very few denominations that have broad enough definitions on sin to let genocide squeek by. Quite a few even seem to put it in the 'not generally forgiveable' catagory. Avon's case may not be so extreme, but I've always understood repentance to include concepts like 'sorry I did that' and 'I really will try not to do it again,' which seem like they might be a bit of a stumbling block for him in taking up the religious life). However, I thought it was interesting that Avon made the statements with the strongest religious context implied. His 'Probably' reply reflected clear concepts about hell as a place of eternal punishment and also some ideas about judgement either from God, Fate, or Something relatively Big in nature. That doesn't mean he believes it personally, but it suggests a familiarity with those ideas beyond what we usually see in the others (Vila's comment was fairly flippant, after all). Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 09 Sep 2000 20:15:28 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re:monetary systems Message-ID: <39BAFCCF.E6A@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Thinking about this, I notice a 1-2-5 progression in monetary units. > 1p-2p-5p, 10p-20p-50p, L1-L2-L5, L10-L20-L50. This strikes me as an elegant > compromise between the efficiency of binary with the relative ease of > thinking in decimal. Do other decimal coinages use the same progression? > > Neil That's a little more consistent than US. 1 cent-5-10-25-50(rare coin) 1 dollar, 2 dollars (rare bill), 5, 10, 20, 50, 100 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:15:10 +0100 From: "Deborah Day" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] Wu names Message-ID: <000301c01aff$3d6cd860$ce8abc3e@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anybody still know the link for the Wu Names? I though I had it but cannot track it down. I guess it might not even still be active, but I can only remember it was something to do with records. Thanks in advance, Debbie. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:22:30 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun 10 Sep, Dana Shilling wrote: > Judith said: > > > > eg. Blimey and bloody both derive from 'By our Lady' or 'By Lady Mary'. > I would dispute the etymology given in the program--I think "blimey" > derives from the oath "May God blind me" (if I'm lying), as you can tell > from the variant forms "Gorblimey" and "corblimey" and "bloody" > comes from the habit of swearing by "God's blood" (Zounds = "by God's > wounds"). I could very easily have misremembered with regard to blimey. > > In fact, come to think of it, that could explain why I have Vila says > "blimey" fairly often when I'm writing fics--he's asking to be > believed (often for statements with at least a modicum of untruth). I don't let Vila use that word at all as tends to smack of Cockney and I've never thought of Vila as Cockney and tend to wince at the occasional story that takes him excessively far in that direction (one or two American writers - not you - have taken Vila down the Dick Van Dyke road and there is no greater sin...) (well, no greater sin apart from making Avon collapse in floods of tears ) Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:47:32 +0300 (EEST) From: Kai V Karmanheimo To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna's Skills Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Steve Dobson wrote: There isn't anything that surprising about this. For example, you can have an airline pilot who is an expert in flying a passenger jet but has few aerial combat skills. In a dogfight situation s/he might be able to pull a loop or an Immelmann, but doing a high-speed yoyo or vertical scissoring would be beyond her/him. As a smuggler, Jenna would probably have some ideas of combat manoeuvres, but even the best skills would not be enough if she was faced with multiple Federation ships that could well be superior to her own craft. The actual combat tactics used by the Liberator crew actually are not that complex. Mainly Blake exploits the ship's superior speed, relying on it to able to shake off chasers or to flash past the opposition so quickly that they can only get in a shot or two, which the force wall can absorb. Considering that most of the engagements take place when both the attacker and the Liberator are moving who-knows-how-many-times faster than light, this is natural. At full speed, the Liberator is invulnerable to a rear-quadrant plasma bolt, because she can outrun any bolt (at slower speed it's another matter all together), though neutron blasters like her own obviously could hit her even in a tailchase situation, as shown in "Redemption". A Federation pursuit ship would be most often making a head-on or a high-speed pass attack where the target (which is not all that big) would be in the optimum firing range for fractions of a second. No matter how could their computers are, I would still think that actually hitting something with plasma bolts in that situation is akin to winging a fly buzzing in the air half a kilometre away with you revolver. The most important things in space combat would be accurate knowledge of the capabilities of the enemy craft, as well as your own, and the ability to think ahead. This is what Servalan does at the beginning of "The Harvest of Kairos": predicting which route the Liberator would take and pre-positioning her units to where they could intercept the ship. I imagine they would saturate the area with fire, creating a wall of plasma bolts through which the Liberator would have to fly. Her speed would become a disadvantage at this point, cutting down the available response time in which evasive actions could be initiated, and the greater the speed the larger the ship's turning radius. Not all bolts would hit but the barrage would be large enough to destroy or cripple the ship. Blake would need information about the pursuit ships' performance, the range of their sensors, and the capabilities of their weaponry, which he could obtain with the cipher machine (and by "Duel" Zen seems to have definite information about the Starbursts' performance). He could test the Liberator's performance himself. Beyond this, I don't see him having any deeper knowledge about space combat tactics, except what he learns the hard way, but he has basic tactical knowledge, he knows how to take advantage of the battle computers he has, and he can recognise and use a sound suggestion when someone offers him one (e.g. "Redemption", "Hostage"). This makes his tactics simple (run; hit and run; take hits and run) but effective. I would compare this to Tarrant as portrayed in "The Harvest of Kairos". Unlike Jenna and Blake, he was one of Space Command's own, and hence would be familiar with not only their equipment, but also their training and tactics. He knows how the enemy captains are trained to react, what manoeuvres they would use, and he knows they are listening to their computers just like he is, hearing the same options and same suggestions. So rather than accepting the Steed party line of him being superior to computers because he's a shit-hot, live-on-the-edge, fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants, testosterone-dripping hunk of a pilot, I see him having an advantage over his enemy, because he knows how they think and can plan ahead. When problems occur, it is because his information fails him (the Mark Tens can move faster than he thinks, the force wall is not set up like it should be). Blake and Jenna can do this to a degree, but they lack the insider's knowledge, so they are more reliant on the suggestions of their computers. In retrospect, I don't think it made that great a difference. Kai ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 14:36:24 +0100 From: Tavia Chalcraft To: 'Lysator mailing list' Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <01C01B34.8172D610.tavia@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: >...and tend to wince at the occasional story that takes him excessively far in that direction (one or two American writers - not >you - have taken Vila down the Dick Van Dyke road and there is no greater sin...) (well, no greater sin apart from making >Avon collapse in floods of tears ) Sorry Judith. Guilty as charged. And I'm not even American. Tavia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 12:08:39 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re [B7L] New zine - submissions wanted Message-ID: <2l4qAWA3u2u5EwJT@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <004f01c01acb$acde31a0$1c684e0c@dshilling>, Dana Shilling writes >Ika said: >> What's the difference? Would I be correct in thinking smut would be >graphic sex >> calculated to arouse the reader and possibly tempt them in the direction >of >> Onan? >What if the new frame captures encourage us to scatter our CDs on the >ground? > Someone take that punster's keyboard away... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:20:26 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] New zine - submissions wanted Message-ID: <002101c01b33$52fbf560$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ika > Neil wrote: > > > (Usual guidelines apply, ie graphic sex/violence/strong language > > permissible, but *no smut*. > > What's the difference? Would I be correct in thinking smut would be graphic sex > calculated to arouse the reader and possibly tempt them in the direction of > Onan? Yup. Neil PS Where is Onan? I can't find it listed in my atlas. Do you mean that big deserty bit on the corner of the Arabian peninsula? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:07:29 +0100 From: Tavia Chalcraft To: 'Lysator mailing list' Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna's Skills Message-ID: <01C01B5A.62C4DFD0.tavia@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kai wrote: >Her speed would become a disadvantage at this point, cutting down the available response time in which evasive actions could >be initiated, and the greater the speed the larger the ship's turning radius. Whilst what you say is self-evidently correct, the _Liberator_ is frequently featured as being more manoeuverable than the smaller slower pursuit ships -- they frequently seem to manage to outmanoeuver them simply by flying in between (eg Hostage?, says she trying to think...). Not sure what's going on here. Tavia ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:53:00 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <000601c01b59$b70b8a40$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dana Shilling > One reason I find "Terminal" > so poignant is that I'm convinced that Avon believes that going there > will result not only in his immediate death but his eternal damnation. Erm ... yeah, well, I suppose it *would* be a very boring world if we all thought alike. > I find it very interesting that in B7, the few references to religion > are quite negative--I would have expected, for instance, for at > least one group of resisters to be religiously inspired. The negativity's not that surprising, seeing as it comes from scriptwriters who seem to know where they stand on the intrinsic irreconcilability (now there's a hard word to type in a hurry) of Science and Religion. The general attitude is not so much negative as condescending, perhaps best summed up in Holmes' definition of faith: "Belief in that which you know not to be true" (Killer). I would personally expect a religious element to figure prominently in the ethos of some revolutionary groups. Neil (now wondering if he can concoct a fanfic plot about the Lutheran Buddhist Army of Divine Vengeance) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:55:48 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7- religion Message-ID: <000701c01b59$b80ef080$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dana Shilling > But I think that it's a basic human impulse to wonder about cosmogeny, and > to try to derive ethical principles for conduct (other than "ooops, it's the > slave > pits of Ursa Prime if I get caught"). Intelligent and thoughtful people have > come up with very different answers to the questions, but I don't see how > the > Federation could stop people from asking. Same way any other intellectual hegemony does it - encourage people to ask while denying them any certainty in their answers. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:22:08 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <000a01c01b59$bc9b2f60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Judith Proctor > (well, no greater sin apart from making Avon collapse in floods of tears > ) I have no problem with that at all, so long as the tears are not his own. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:06:42 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of religion Message-ID: <000801c01b59$b9fd5300$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ellynne G. > However, I thought it was interesting that Avon made the statements with > the strongest religious context implied. His 'Probably' reply reflected > clear concepts about hell as a place of eternal punishment and also some > ideas about judgement either from God, Fate, or Something relatively Big > in nature. At least understandable in that Avon comes from 'our' universe, an imagined future to our present. But what about Princess Leia's/Han Solo's references to Hell in the Star Wars movies? I can think of at least two, and They Don't Belong. Whilst on the subject, and solely for the sake of inclusivity, there are religious dimensions (though not explicit religion per se) to several episodes, notably Deliverance (the fulfilment of prophecy) and City (reaching the promised land). Sarcophagus might also be thrown in on the first count. There's also a thing called Dawn of the Gods but I'd rather not admit that it even exists. (Something I call 'htiaf', defined as "Disbelief in that which you know perfectly well to be true." There's rather a lot of it about.) Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:38:27 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: In message , Judith Proctor writes >I don't let Vila use that word at all as tends to smack of Cockney and I've >never thought of Vila as Cockney and tend to wince at the occasional story that >takes him excessively far in that direction (one or two American writers - not >you - have taken Vila down the Dick Van Dyke road and there is no greater >sin...) (well, no greater sin apart from making Avon collapse in floods of tears >) Just for that, I think I'll write one where Avon is stuck with kitchen duty and it's onion soup for starters. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 16:36:36 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: B7 Lyst Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <5ZEpP5AEq6u5EwKV@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <39BAF356.C49383A2@sdc.org>, Betty Ragan writes >Although I know I've said to you before that I just cannot bring myself >to buy a religious Avon, there is something about the whole Catholic >guilt thing that does seem strangely appropriate for him. :) It does appear that quite a number of the Lystians are intrigued by the idea of Avon as a Jesuit. Although the last time the subject came up, it seemed to be dominated by drooling (not that that's unusual). -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:33:24 +0300 (EEST) From: Kai V Karmanheimo To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Monetary systems SF, fantasy, etc Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Neil wrote: I believe this was true for the Finnish markka about fifty years ago, but successive changes have eliminated some of them, the current system being: 10 penni=E4, 50 1 markka, 5 markkaa, 10, 20, 50, 100, 500, 1000 (both 20 and 1000 were gone for decades before being reintroduced about ten years ago) Oh well, in a few years it'll be all Euro in here, if that thing doesn't sink before that... Kai ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 20:36:26 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna's Skills Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Steve said re Jenna: Jenna's a smuggler by trade, after all - and I would imagine her First Rule would have always been get the cargo away safely, which means *running away* from trouble whenever possible. If she's good - which she is - it'd be a rare thing that she *had* to fight her way out of trouble, and certainly not with a ship the size of the Liberator and from anything like Federation pursuit ships. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:55:18 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <005a01c01b6b$11f826a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Betty said - > there is something about the whole Catholic > guilt thing that does seem strangely appropriate for Avon I can't see this at all, though. It seems to me that the religious guilt thing depends on being guilty for the inevitable attributes of corporeal existence. Feeling guilty for your very existence as a limited and biological entity. And it's a guilt that can not be assuaged by any action, because by definition nothing you can do can ever be good enough. Everything is a source of shame. And my picture of Avon is more or less the diametric opposite of this. It is that one finds oneself in a particular physical body, in a particular political system, with particular comrades. One didn't ask to be there, and one didn't ask to have the physical drives to live, to avoid pain, to love. But, taking all that on board, one makes the best of it. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 22:09:58 +-100 From: Louise Rutter To: 'B7 Lysator' Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Evidence of religion Message-ID: <01C01B73.DDBE5040@host213-1-87-196.btinternet.com> Neil wrote: >At least understandable in that Avon comes from 'our' universe, an >imagined future to our present. But what about Princess Leia's/Han >Solo's references to Hell in the Star Wars movies? I can think of at least >two, and They Don't Belong. Just assume that since it's all in a Galaxy Far, Far Away (TM) the whole thing is translated into English for our benefit, including relevant religious punishment references. Louise ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 07:39:10 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Dana Shilling" >and "bloody" >comes from the habit of swearing by "God's blood" (Zounds = "by God's >wounds"). It may have more than one point of origin, or people in the past may have believed that to be the case - for example, "by our Lady" seems to be Merlin's favoured oath in T H White's Sword in the Stone. Maybe the origin depended upon your particular focus, either Christ or Mary. Well, it takes my mind off Olympic countdowns... Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:55:32 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion Message-ID: <200009101955_MC2-B2D6-CC04@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Ellynne asked: >And what the heck does heck mean, anyway? Hell. Don't know why it flips, though. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 11:01:33 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re [B7L] New zine - submissions wanted Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >Neil > >PS Where is Onan? I can't find it listed in my atlas. Do you mean that >big deserty bit on the corner of the Arabian peninsula? Oman, it's getting worse. Regards Joanne _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 21:21:13 EDT From: B7Morrigan@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Confession Message-ID: <48.ab7c30c.26ed8d89@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some time ago, I confessed that I had actually doubted the word of Una when it came to the John Muir book. I swore then that I would never doubt her again. Gnog jumped on that vow and asked my opinion of Animals. At the time I had not ever seen Animals and was able to sneak out of answering the question. I watched it last night. I did not hate it. Actually, I thought it better than some other episodes and I thought that Og and the other creatures were some of the better B7 creatures-other-than-human. I won't put it in my top 10 of course, but I'm not sure I'd put it in the botton 10 either. I'm actually a little bit worried by all of this.... Morrigan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2000 13:51:02 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124) Message-ID: <20000910.230723.-80919.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 15:53:00 +0100 "Neil Faulkner" writes: > The negativity's not that surprising, seeing as it comes from > scriptwriters > who seem to know where they stand on the intrinsic irreconcilability > (now > there's a hard word to type in a hurry) of Science and Religion. > The > general attitude is not so much negative as condescending, perhaps > best > summed up in Holmes' definition of faith: "Belief in that which you > know not > to be true" (Killer). A witty, if inaccurate, statement. I would personally expect a religious element > to > figure prominently in the ethos of some revolutionary groups. Thank you, Neil. This somehow reminds me of a story one science fiction writer told of being frequently asked _when_ he'd lost his religion. The fact that he hadn't tended to unnerve them. Apparently, a lot of people thought it was a prerequisite for writing SF. > > Neil (now wondering if he can concoct a fanfic plot about the > Lutheran > Buddhist Army of Divine Vengeance) > I'm tempted to say something about it starting with warmongering Quakers and an Amish drive-by shooting but I'll refrain. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #255 **************************************