From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #27 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/27 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 27 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Two) [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Re: [B7L] Was Blake motivated by personal vendetta? Re: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... [B7L] Galaxy Quest Re: [B7L] Was Blake motivated by personal vendetta? Re: [B7L] Toying with Travis [B7L] Re: Avon&the masses (was history) Re: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Re: [B7L] Galaxy Quest [B7L] Re: Avon&the masses (was history) Re: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Two) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Three) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Re: [B7L] Toying with Travis [B7L] More articles on Gareth Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Two) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 21:23:56 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Two) Message-ID: <005601bf69d8$25746260$358701d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally said.... > (he's good. Not nice. Nice >is Inga and Governer Le Wassername.) Le Grand. Just to prove I read it. Good stuff Sally, although I wrote my previous post before I read yours, I would still post it. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:32:29 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Message-ID: <20000129003229.39227.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed My package with Stardrive/Animals arrived yesterday. Stardrive I remembered rather too well from some years back (and it gave me no pleasure) but Animals had been wiped from my memory as if by sheer force of will. So I sat down to remember...oh wow. I remember why I forgot. But guess what, Una. There are episodes of B7 I do hate - Power, Stardrive, Moloch and The Keeper - I don't hate Animals. I *can't*. It would be like kicking a very ugly but very well-meaning and eager-to-please stray dog. A few thoughts... Piri/Cancer is no longer my most-hated guest star - Justin is spectacularly, breathtakingly detestable, especially his eyebrows. And the acting is appalling (his distracting way of talking). And that *outfit*.... Dayna's role is embarrassing...yes, I know it was originally slated for Cally, but given this drivel, Cally would have been embarrassing too. And the weepy bit at the end...ick. But I forgive Josette Simon on the grounds that even someone like Judi Dench couldn't have made this dialogue work. The acting throughout by all Our Heroes is noteworthy, for all the wrong reasons (except for Vila.) Tarrant, Soolin and especially Dayna and Avon are off...I'm developing this theory that sometime in early Series 4, in between episodes, they were put under a spell and replaced by clones that had just enough idea of how the originals should behave to aim and miss (with Avon, this happened before Power. Definitely.) The real ones then woke up just before Headhunter...Either that, or the cast got infected with the Dreaded Coarse Acting Bug for a couple of weeks. Michael Keating is good, however, and I do like the line "I don't see why I should be punished for your guilty conscience." I also get the distinct impression that Vila does get stuck with, if not all, more than his share of the physically dirty jobs - from the way they all automatically, without even looking at each other, fasten on him as the bunny, from what he says *and* from the others' reactions/expressions to what he says - not so much "yeah, you always say that" as "true - so what?" (please note this is *just* my impression...) Og reminds me of an old fur rug an uncle had - a very very old and tattered and rather smelly rug. I'm trying to work out which is more giggle-worthy - Saymon (The Web), the spiders (Kairos) or Og and co. I guess that they *could* have their uses in war - at the sight of a whole platoon of Ogs, the enemy would drop their weapons and collapse with laughter. Servalan/Sleer is doing her best impersonation of an overpainted vulture (the dress with the feather collar is *particularly* suggestive, almost like a Halloween costume). And I noticed that her face is beginning to decay just a little (this is especially apparent because of the lighting, and in her scenes with young, fresh Dayna). She's still beautiful, but beginning to age, but I think in 5th season her looks would have started fading and fast - the signs are there. Avon's hair is marginally better than his usual indoor 4th season style - on the other hand, the outdoor bits don't have as much of the luscious windswept look from Warlord, bits of Stardrive, Assassins...oh, all right, even the outdoor bits of Power. He looks so different in the indoor/outdoor scenes throughout this season... (maybe the fresh air agrees with him ) (Oh and the plot, Sally. What about the plot?) It had a *plot*? You could have fooled me... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 07:43:22 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Was Blake motivated by personal vendetta? Message-ID: <20000129074322.A10985@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Jan 28, 2000 at 02:49:18AM -0800, Sally Manton wrote: > Kathryn wrote: > > Then Selma comes and gets her share, then they start scrabbling again, > only Blake (armed with nothing but charisma) stops them makes them take > their portions fairly, one at a time. > He's just a democrat at heart.> > > albeit a distinctly autocratic one on his own ship... I *knew* "democrat" was the wrong word! I just can't think of the right one. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:12:21 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Message-ID: <015b01bf69f6$12486970$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > My package with Stardrive/Animals arrived yesterday. Stardrive I remembered > rather too well from some years back (and it gave me no pleasure) but > Animals had been wiped from my memory as if by sheer force of will. So I sat > down to remember...oh wow. I remember why I forgot. Oddly enough, I watched back 'Animals' just this evening on fast-forward. Can I suggest this in general as a new way to watch this particular episode? You may find all sorts of nuances emerging which you hadn't noticed before. > But guess what, Una. There are episodes of B7 I do hate - Power, Stardrive, > Moloch and The Keeper - I don't hate Animals. I *can't*. It would be like > kicking a very ugly but very well-meaning and eager-to-please stray dog. I've always maintained there was no need for cruelty to 'Animals'. > Piri/Cancer is no longer my most-hated guest star - Justin > is spectacularly, breathtakingly detestable, especially his > eyebrows. And the acting is appalling (his distracting way > of talking). And that *outfit*.... No, be honest, you *know* Piri is much worse. Do you really want to put an axe through Justin's head in the same way you want to with Piri? Isn't he more likely to just make you drop off? This episode has merits as a cure for insomnia. (I actually think he does a pretty good job with pretty lacklustre dialogue.) > Dayna's role is embarrassing...yes, I know it was originally > slated for Cally, but given this drivel, Cally would have > been embarrassing too. And the weepy bit at the end...ick. Ah yes, tears on the Astroturf. It makes my eyes run every time. > But I forgive Josette Simon on the grounds that even someone > like Judi Dench couldn't have made this dialogue work. Like to see her try... > Og reminds me of an old fur rug an uncle had - a very > very old and tattered and rather smelly rug. I'm trying > to work out which is more giggle-worthy - Saymon (The Web), > the spiders (Kairos) or Og and co. It's close. I'd go for the spider, which is just plain shit. At least Og and co are standing up and not crawling round on all fours. Which brings me to Saymon... > (Oh and the plot, Sally. What about the plot?) > > It had a *plot*? You could have fooled me... Ah, it's a very subtle one. Requires repeated viewing. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 18:47:29 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Galaxy Quest Message-ID: <389254C1.8364C83F@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit haha ho ho hehe chortle chuckle snort guffaw Attention all Federation Citizens! You must run - not walk - right out and see Galaxy Quest. This is the goofiest movie since Time Bandits. Every sci fi series you ever saw is spoofed in this gem. But the characters are composites of several canon characters, which makes it far more fun (and challenging!) to identify the quirks and traits that make each character tick. You can't miss the Jenna Stannis knock-off. We all know (and love) Avon's black leather tunic. Sadly however, in this film, hordes of fen musta got there first and bit off all the studs Still, there's enough black leather body suits for all... And how about them cute li'l decimas? Plus, the ending is a delight for anyone who ever attended a SF fan convention. *still* lafing a day later, pat __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:20:19 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Was Blake motivated by personal vendetta? Message-ID: <20000128.200528.9374.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:49:18 PST "Sally Manton" writes: >Kathryn wrote: > >He's just a democrat at heart.> > > albeit a distinctly autocratic one on his own ship... > "All democratically inclined rebels out to free the universe are created equal. Some are created more equal than others." Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:59:57 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Toying with Travis Message-ID: <20000128.200528.9374.2.Rilliara@juno.com> I admit Blake's reasons were about as solid as a bridge made of wet paper towels, but there were two good things that came of sparing Travis. 1) I assume, in Gambit, Servalan's set up of Travis and the not so functional explosive involved an explosive that _would_ have gone off if Blake shot him (everyone else wanted him alive [for a little while, at least]) 2) The Andromedan invasion was already a given. If Travis hadn't helped them, Blake wouldn't have known till he destroyed Star One, possibly turning off the defenses. Also, Servalan wouldn't have been ready to bring every Federation ship she could get her hands on as a result of a message from Blake without a lot more proof (i.e., once it was too late). Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 20:05:13 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon&the masses (was history) Message-ID: <20000128.200528.9374.3.Rilliara@juno.com> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 02:21:07 PST "Sally Manton" writes: >Ellynne G. wrote re Avon's reluctance to save Auron unless absolutely >forced >to: > >has >let the Anna issue sit on the back burner for a couple years or more >(don't >tell me it took him this long to dig up the official cover story on >Anna's >death). Then, suddenly, this is all he can concentrate on.> > >Mistral wrote: >instead >of Blake; (2) Guilt over not being able to find Blake stirs up guilt >over >Anna's death.> > Good points. Although, I did start working on a little fanfic that went another way. Just assume Avon has a brother . . . . >Series 3 except think, and obviously thinking about the last few >months led >to... > >from >Zelda. Although he doesn't say it, he could have plenty of reasons >for >being wary. Zelda could be lying.> > > > >Agreed, but that wasn't his main reason for objecting, but special >pleading >IMO. After all, he was fairly sure (also IMO) that Terminal was a trap >- >hence his extraordinary precautions for the others - but instead of a >whole >planet of people he couldn't care less about (and who were genuinely >dying), But he didn't know that, did he? Cally wasn't even sure who Zelda was talking about or what the circumstances were. >it was baited with just one person. And he couldn't get there fast >enough. > One person with _nobody_ but him to come help them. Not that I have to find a justification for every nasty thing Avon does. I just see sitting back and letting genocide happen as a bit out of character, even on his cranky days . . . Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:52:56 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Message-ID: <20000128.200528.9374.1.Rilliara@juno.com> On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 16:32:29 PST "Sally Manton" writes: >My package with Stardrive/Animals arrived yesterday. Stardrive I >remembered >rather too well from some years back (and it gave me no pleasure) but >Animals had been wiped from my memory as if by sheer force of will. So >I sat >down to remember...oh wow. I remember why I forgot. > Traumatic, isn't it? >A few thoughts... > >Piri/Cancer is no longer my most-hated guest star I was so lucky when I saw this episode. The TV was on the fritz all night. I didn't know Piri was wearing a crab pin till she said so. It's a lot more tolerable when you can barely see anything and only hear half the dialogue. >Dayna's role is embarrassing...yes, I know it was originally >slated for Cally, but given this drivel, Cally would have >been embarrassing too. I still keep wondering if there was anything here that--with a _lot_ of work--could have made this a decent Cally story. It would have been conclusive proof that Cally could and would date, if nothing else. Establish a precedent of liking brainy (in theory, at least) types who apparently liked to be left alone while pursuing their own projects (as well as making it abundantly clear why she might not be rushing into a second relationship like this). OTOH, couldn't writers think of anything for her to do besides get captured by the enemy and fall under their mind-twisting domination? Hmm, maybe this works as a Cally revenge story. Her ghost gets back at Dayna for all the lame jokes she made about the times Cally got taken over by aliens by arranging this. . . . >Og reminds me of an old fur rug an uncle had - a very >very old and tattered and rather smelly rug. I'm trying >to work out which is more giggle-worthy - Here, I actually have sympathy. I can handle a high level of bad make up and special effects. The unforgiveable stuff is the name (is there _anything_ dumber than Og? What did Justin do, name him after his favorite caveman action figure?) and the idiotic "science." >Servalan/Sleer is doing her best impersonation of an >overpainted vulture (the dress with the feather collar >is *particularly* suggestive, almost like a Halloween >costume). And I noticed that her face is beginning to >decay just a little As someone who's always liked the idea of something between Avon and Cally, the idea of Servalan realizing 1) her looks are going and 2) Cally's aren't might have added an interesting angle. Or not. I just can't think of anything salvageable in this one (but I'm working on it). >(Oh and the plot, Sally. What about the plot?) > >It had a *plot*? You could have fooled me... It involved torturing poor, innocent viewers, world wide, apparently in some vain effort to convince us they knew what they were doing when they cancelled the show. Brave rebels everywhere refused to give in and the fight goes on. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:14:12 -0600 From: "Mary O'Connor" To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Galaxy Quest Message-ID: <38927724.2459647C@escape.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Patera wrote: > haha ho ho hehe chortle chuckle snort guffaw > Attention all Federation Citizens! > You must run - not walk - right out and see Galaxy Quest. > This is the goofiest movie since Time Bandits. > > Every sci fi series you ever saw is spoofed in this gem. > But the characters are composites of several canon characters, which > makes it far more fun (and challenging!) to identify the quirks and > traits that make each character tick. > > You can't miss the Jenna Stannis knock-off. > > We all know (and love) Avon's black leather tunic. Sadly however, in > this film, hordes of fen musta got there first and bit off all the studs > Still, there's enough black leather body suits for all... > > And how about them cute li'l decimas? > > Plus, the ending is a delight for anyone who ever attended a SF fan > convention. > > *still* lafing a day later, pat The scene where the group leader watches all of his crew get shot down, one after another, in slow motion is reminiscent of a series I like. Mary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:17:44 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon&the masses (was history) Message-ID: <20000129101744.22561.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Me and Ellyne: Possibly I could've worded it a bit better (after that 3- post effort, my brain might have furred up...) I don't like to think he'd be prepared to do so either - and actually, when push comes to shove, he does have a habit of Doing The Right Thing (on both a small scale - that Sarran Dayna wanted to kill - and large - the near-suicidal defence of the galaxy because Blake asked it of him). And I absolutely agree that Avon didn't know the Auronar were *genuinely* being exterminated - the message, which could have been incorrect, is a nice vague 'they're all dying'. My impression is he doesn't want to know either (that way he mightn't actually have to face the idea square on), he doesn't turn to Orac for more information until it's clear he's lost and they're going. The two other main cases where large numbers are/would be at risk ar Killer - where he was all for letting Servalan get the plague, not thinking about other possible consequences (whether he might have thought of/cared about them himself in time is a moot point, and I really aren't sure) and - the most damning case - Traitor, where he actually *says* "we are only interested in whether or not the Federation have some new weapon. Whatever else is happening down there, even if they are executing the entire population, YOU are not to get involved." Now, as to whether he means it quite as cold-bloodedly as that... again I'm not sure. He and his people are being threatened, however, so I can believe it. The deaths of any number of enemies or total strangers at his own or other hands doesn't really seem to concern him when he's pursuing his own safety or interests, or those of the few people he cares about (comes from his almost total lack of interest in people per se IMO). While I don't see him 'sitting back and letting genocide happen' gratuitously, as a matter of course - especially when he had someone to act as surrogate conscience - if he had to choose between preventing that genocide and something/ someone really important to him personally...as I said, I hate to think how many people he'd be prepared to sacrifice for Anna or Blake. A hell of a lot, by my reckoning. In Children, part of it's the timing, maybe. I would imagine that - deny it though he would - anticipating the first part of his own plan (get captured and tortured for an unspecified period of time) is terrifying. At that minute in Children, Zelda's indistinct message is nothing more than a delay, when he *must* just want it over and done with... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 23:36:15 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Animals... after umpteen years I've seen it again... Message-ID: <3892986E.CEB255E@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. wrote: > The unforgiveable stuff is the name (is there > _anything_ dumber than Og? What did Justin do, name him after his > favorite caveman action figure?) Probably just a coincidence, but in Deuteronomy 3, Og is the king of Bashan and last of the giants; possibly a reference to his size and status among the 'pack'? Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 01:13:51 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <3892AF4E.8F7E627A@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral wrote: > intend to see that heart torn out' (Spacefall); 'I will destroy it if I can' > (Duel); and the one that really bugs me 'it's the only way I can be sure > that I was right' (Star One).> > > I agree that he feels it more his cause than that of the group as a whole, > but (apart from his arrogance, something I personally would never deny) > that's only common sense - he isn't blind, he can *see* the enthusiasm with > which the Fight for Freedom inspires the theif, the pilot and the computer > expert, the way they have taken it to heart and made it their own . Yes, but I wasn't talking about 'I, Blake' as opposed to 'I and my crew'; rather 'I, Blake' as opposed to 'we the oppressed citizens of the Federation'. I get the impression he'd fight on even if he were the *only* person who thought the Federation should be brought down; that's my meaning. Nor am I saying that's a bad thing; my original remark that you asked me to expand on was with regard to this idea that Blake makes decisions *on behalf* of other people while Avon makes decisions *about* other people on his own behalf. However I'm of the opinion that while Blake may believe he's doing the former, (and appears to have a significant portion of the audience fooled ), in reality they're *both* doing the latter. That's perfectly normal, BTW. The brain is self-referencing; we all think of ourselves as normal. To refer back to Kathryn's and your democrat/autocrat conversation; one reason that people are so fond of democracy is because they assume that most people think the way they do, so they'll be always or mostly in the majority, so they'll be content. So Blake genuinely thinks of himself as an egalitarian; he thinks he wants freedom for everyone, because he expects them to want to do with it the same things he would. In practice, however, what he really wants is things to be run the way *he* believes they should. He's no qualms about enforcing his will on others (Sarkoff, the natives in Horizon) when he believes he's right, even when the freedom he's fighting for says they have the right to choose otherwise. > *him* ('They butchered my family, my friends. They murdered my past and gave > me tranquilized dreams,' etc.) > > > *That* is a perfectly human and natural reaction. Yes of course it is, and I said so in my very next sentence, which you left out . You're just disagreeing on principle, aren't you? > > > Don't agree at all, at all. It's natural to feel more immediate, visceral > emotion when people you know and love are brutalised - that doesn't make > concern on behalf of the 'people he doesn't even know' any less genuine. Mm. I get the impression from this, and also from Sondra's and Kathryn's posts, that I'm being interpreted as saying Blake just doesn't care about people. That's a ludicrous statement which I'd never make; he obviously cares quite a lot. What I'm saying is that it isn't the essential underlying motivation for his actions against the Federation. Blake is fighting for Blake's ideals; he very nearly admits it directly to Sinofar in Duel ('But would numbers change the nature of the dispute?' 'Probably not.') Therefore his willingness to make decisions that affect other people's lives is no more 'morally courageous' than Avon's. *In this* they are essentially the same; the only difference is that Blake has that soft 'cushy-feelie' veneer over his knife-edged determination to get what he wants. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 02:36:08 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Two) Message-ID: <3892C297.2E18A052@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > > > I doubt it. Didn't at the end of Terminal, where she was *the President*. > And remember, the current President wants rid of her anyway, so would > undoubtedly have good ideas on who could step into her over-high-heeled > shoes. She's a cog - an important and decorative but quite replaceable one > (and *I* think her knowledge of that is one of the factors leading to her > coup.) Terminal was after the galactic war. The Federation had been so severely damaged that her presence or absence becomes irrelevant *in proportion*; but previous to the war, I suspect she was more significant. The President *failed* to get rid of her, she got rid of him. And in fourth series, it's *her* pacification program (Traitor) that allows the rapid re-expansion of the Federation, so, yes, I'd still say she made a difference even after the war. > > > Agreed as far as the crew and general practice goes (though not when they're > threatened, when emotion tends to take over), and he never denied it, or > forced them to stay. Anyone who wanted could have left (probably taking a > hefty share of the treasure room funds with them.) Yes, Gan and Jenna are of > the opinion that there's nowhere safe to go (Breakdown would indicate that > they're wrong - there are places if they cared to look). Again, I wasn't specifically referring to the crew, but people like Sarkoff as well. I'll point out that Avon had special skills to trade for safety on XK-72; that's not necessarily true of the others. And I'd be absolutely *stunned* if Blake parted with a 'hefty share' of the treasure--it's another weapon against the Federation to him. He wouldn't even let Avon *hold* those jewels until they got back to the Liberator in 'Shadow'. > *But*...you're forgetting one small and very very important fact (one I > doubt Blake ever forgot). > > There's only one of him, for goodness sake. There are *four* of them (five, > with Cally). He actually *cannot* force them to either do as he says or > leave. They could decide to turn the Liberator into a flying Pleasure > Palace, go in for Kairos-style piracy or sell the ship to the highest bidder > - *if* they chose to defy his self-imposed authority. They choose not to. Oh, I agree he never forgot it. Blake knew *exactly* how good he was at leading and/or manipulating people. (By which I mean that he's savvy, not scheming.) He's quite gifted at it, and must have always been as he was already a leader in the resistance pre-Way Back. Materially the rest of what you've said about this is true; are you aware, however, that your argument essentially reduces to 'being able to lead people makes one not responsible for the direction in which one chooses to lead?' I'd have said rather the reverse is the case. A gift for leadership should (and in my mind, does) bring with it the responsibility not to use it to further one's owns ends at the expense of those being led. > I won't go one-on-one with the rest of your examples, because they're all of > a piece to me - a mixture of arrogance and extreme pragmatism. Not > particularly nice, but Blake is *not* a nice man (he's good. Not nice. Nice > is Inga and Governer Le Wassername.) He's arrogant and ruthless and > temperamental and wounded and emotional and driven by his hatred of the evil > that is the Federation and his desire to see that evil destroyed, but he's > also trying do do some good for as many people as he can with precious few > real resources - a fancy ship, two computers and five decidedly ill-assorted > don't-wannabe revolutionaries. Nice methods would simply get him squashed > flat by Episode Six. Er... but you've just proved my point. You said it exactly, so, mmm, why are you disagreeing? I quote: "*driven* (emphasis mine) by his hatred of the evil that is the Federation and his desire to see that evil destroyed". Yes, he also wants to do some good. IMO, however, doing good is not the driving force. > A vendetta? Nope. The disarming regularity the way his cause keeps taking > second place whenever 'someone he doesn't even know' needs his help (Mission > to Destiny, Deliverance, Killer, and the way, in Countdown, he's all ready > to go off with Avon to disarm the bomb and Avon has to remind *him* about > Provine and what they came for. I love that bit) is proof that his political > agenda does *not* blind him to individuals in need. Urk! Yet again you're assuming things I didn't say . I agree that, confronted with people in need, Blake is always ready to help--that doesn't have any bearing on his attitude towards the Federation, or his willingness to coerce/sacrifice others in the name of his *personal* agenda. On to part three... Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 03:45:55 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Three) Message-ID: <3892D2F2.BB6B331B@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral again: > to help him escape. Blake didn't see it happen, of course, but the risk, at > least, was apparent. If it's all about freedom and > oppression, why didn't he take the time to free the system's people?> > > This is actually out of character for him (see in Part One - also The Web > and his concern for the Decimas), so I had a think about it. This time, it's > a pragmatic decision. That's a really terrific idea and I'd happily accept it if it weren't for the fact that we actually see him head resolutely off for Earth sector at the end of the ep without so much as an 'I wish we could help them'. > <*Note:* None of this qualifies as *proof* that Blake's motivations are more > personal than altruistic. But taken all together, it strikes *me* as a > pattern.> > > And strikes me as a different pattern, one of ego (and name one of Our > Heroes without one. Okay, Gan. Name Two - Cally? Okay, *three* and don't try > to sneak Avon in there), ruthlessness and extreme pragmatism. There's a > personal element, but the altruism is genuine, and demonstrated quite > convincingly for me again and again. Ain't B7 grand??? Last time I checked, putting yourself first (ego) and putting others first (altruism) were mutually exclusive. There's only one first. > You honestly believe it's more ethical for Avon to want to sacrifice people > to his own narrow self-interests, than for Blake to want to do it to try and > make life bearable/better/even possible for the majority (and maybe save > other lives as well, since the Federation were doing quite a good job of > massacring the innocent)? Interesting idea... Not what I said, as I'm sure you're aware. If I'm lying in a hospital bed in a coma, and somebody comes in off the street and disconnects my life support, the fact that that person 'cares' about me [1] doesn't make me any less dead; [2] doesn't give him the right to make that choice. That right belongs to my next of kin or legal representative. Blake has decided that everybody *should* want what he wants, and that this justifies his making decisions *for* them. I don't agree. Blake's violation of people's right to choose is no better than the Federation's misuse of its power. As far as Avon goes, I've said elsewhere that I think his treatment of Shrinker is wrong; but apart from Rumors, I cannot think of any time that he killed or threatened to kill someone unless it was self-defense or defense of someone he felt responsible for, or else the person was a legitimate target. I consider all of those acceptable motivations under the circumstances he was in. I accept that sometimes people get hurt as a result of people tending to their own, proper sphere of influence. All life is linked. I don't accept that a total stranger has any business deciding that my life isn't worth living unless I live it on his terms. So, yes, as incomprehensible as you may find it, I think Avon's behaviour is the more ethical. I don't actually expect you to agree with me, but I do wish you'd try to *understand* what my concern is: when you start interfering in other people's free will 'for their own good', it's just a matter of time and degree before someone decides it's acceptable to run their entire lives. That's precisely the sort of justification that some extremely oppressive regimes have and do use. It's probably the very justification the Federation uses. If Blake does it, he's become no better than the system he's fighting. On a smaller scale, yes; but the very same evil, and any victory he wins will carry the seeds of its own destruction. > My view is, Avon does precisely > what he wants, quite blatantly interfering in other people's lives or > ignoring their rights if it suits him. Blake does precisely what he thinks > best, also interfering if he thinks it necessary. If you substitute 'crosses his well-being' for 'suits him', I don't disagree a bit. So what exactly are we arguing about again? Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 12:59:13 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <00a801bf6a58$e6a67c40$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >That's perfectly normal, BTW. The brain is self-referencing; we >all think of ourselves as normal. To refer back to Kathryn's and >your democrat/autocrat conversation; one reason that people are >so fond of democracy is because they assume that most people >think the way they do, so they'll be always or mostly in the majority, >so they'll be content. C'mon Mistral .. anyone on this list think that they are 'normal' (a.k.a. average)? Anyone out there assuming that your fellow citizens are likely to agree with you on most important issues? I like democracy because it provides a few minimum limits on power. Pretty inadequate limits admittedly. But then I thought everyone felt like that :-) Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:14:25 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Toying with Travis Message-ID: <3892E7B1.A7FB3988@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. wrote: > 2) The Andromedan invasion was already a given. If Travis hadn't helped > them, Blake wouldn't have known till he destroyed Star One, possibly > turning off the defenses. Also, Servalan wouldn't have been ready to > bring every Federation ship she could get her hands on as a result of a > message from Blake without a lot more proof (i.e., once it was too late). Will you please explain this a little, Ellynne? I don't quite understand, and I'd like to. My impression was that the Andromedans needed Travis's help to stage the invasion; are you saying you believe they could have gotten that help elsewhere? And also, I don't understand what sparing Travis would have to do with Servalan and the fleet; or are you referring to sparing Servalan here? Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 08:15:18 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org Subject: [B7L] More articles on Gareth Message-ID: <5b.14d9109.25c441e6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are two more articles on Gareth and TWELFTH NIGHT at: http://www.edinburghnews.com Do a search for "Twelfth Night" to get to the articles. Be sure to click on and scroll through "Red Hot Lover Tom Conti is typecast again." An article "Blake Treads the Board" follows it. Also click on the second article "Seventh Heaven." Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:26:11 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part Two) Message-ID: In message <3892C297.2E18A052@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes >Er... but you've just proved my point. Hardly. > You said it exactly, >so, mmm, why are you disagreeing? I quote: "*driven* (emphasis >mine) by his hatred of the evil that is the Federation and his desire >to see that evil destroyed". Yes, he also wants to do some good. >IMO, however, doing good is not the driving force. > Then I suspect we have very different notions of what "doing good" means. "Doing good" includes destroying what you see as evil. Whether or not others agree with you that what you are destroying is evil is another matter... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 05:35:42 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <3892ECAD.C5F2B7C8@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > >That's perfectly normal, BTW. The brain is self-referencing; we > >all think of ourselves as normal. To refer back to Kathryn's and > >your democrat/autocrat conversation; one reason that people are > >so fond of democracy is because they assume that most people > >think the way they do, so they'll be always or mostly in the majority, > >so they'll be content. > > C'mon Mistral .. anyone on this list think that they are 'normal' (a.k.a. > average)? Anyone out there assuming that your fellow citizens are likely to > agree with you on most important issues? :) C'mon yourself, Alison, I didn't say average. I mean normal as in sane, healthy, knowing the difference between right and wrong. The idea of the brain as self-referencing isn't original with me; I found it in a (layman's) neuro-psych book (no I don't remember the title). It's the reason that Alzheimer's patients think they're okay and the caretaker is mixed up, not to mention people with many other disorders.We measure other people in reference to ourselves, not to 'average'. I cannot tell you the number of times I've watched/heard people tie themselves in knots trying to reconcile the ideas that [1] they knew the difference between right and wrong; [2] the way to choose right laws is to vote on them; [3] they knew that a certain law was wrong. Simply because they assumed that the majority of people would *substantially* agree about what right and wrong are. It isn't so. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:50:10 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <029001bf6a5f$c7bf8cc0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > C'mon Mistral .. anyone on this list think that they are 'normal' (a.k.a. > average)? I'd be offended if you suggested it! > Anyone out there assuming that your fellow citizens are likely to > agree with you on most important issues? As a rule, no. > I like democracy because it provides a few minimum limits on power. Pretty > inadequate limits admittedly. > > But then I thought everyone felt like that :-) ;) Well, given that quite obviously the best way of running our society is for me to have absolute power. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 13:52:21 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <029501bf6a60$12c8fdf0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > I mean normal > as in sane, healthy, knowing the difference between right and > wrong. Ooh, so much to pull apart in that one sentence, I'm practically frothing at the mouth! Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 06:12:04 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <3892F534.27DEBACD@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una McCormack wrote: > Mistral wrote: > > > I mean normal > > as in sane, healthy, knowing the difference between right and > > wrong. > > Ooh, so much to pull apart in that one sentence, I'm practically frothing at > the mouth! I guess then when you have absolute power, that will be normal? Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 14:30:02 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Motivations and Justifications (Part One - well, I didn't mean to ramble) Message-ID: <032a01bf6a65$5a137910$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > Una McCormack wrote: > > > Mistral wrote: > > > > > I mean normal > > > as in sane, healthy, knowing the difference between right and > > > wrong. > > > > Ooh, so much to pull apart in that one sentence, I'm practically frothing at > > the mouth! > > I guess then when you have absolute power, that will be normal? Now we're talking the same language! Una -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #27 *************************************