From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #272 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/272 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 272 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Introduction [ "Jeroen J. Kwast" ] [B7L] Re: Anna [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ] Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and pr [ "Neil Faulkner" ] Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and pr [ "Una McCormack" ] Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love [ "Ellynne G." ] Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and pr [ Steve Kilbane To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction Message-Id: <200009280958.e8S9wn316382@tragebak.gns.getronics.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > In a message dated 9/27/00 8:59:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > d.mcarthur@worldnet.att.net writes: > > > Oh, tell me I'm not the only person in the world who finds "Terminal" > > more depressing than "Blake". For some reason I spend all of "Terminal" > > thinking "Good-bye, Zen; Good-bye Liberator; Good-bye Cally; Good-bye > > curling iron guns; sniffle..." While in "Blake" I spend most of the > episode > > thinking "no, you idiots! Don't do it!" > > OK, Katie, you're not the only one. I dread "Terminal" and have it fixed in > my head that Cally dies (even though she doesn't until "Rescue") and > everything goes to hell. The only good thing about "Terminal" (at least in > my view) is the lovely interaction between Avon and Blake and GT's beard. > > Morrigan > > Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic! > > Make that 3! I think Terminal is so depressing that I skip the tape it is on! (most of the time) I even stop the tape before the I ... scene. I think that episode loses a lot of great characters. I (as a boy) always loved the ship, it's great strength and now it disintegrates !!! :( (it can't be!) Jeroen PS: It makes the storyline great though! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:40:30 +0100 From: Tavia Chalcraft To: 'Lysator mailing list' Subject: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love Message-ID: <01C02940.E9B605C0.tavia@btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone lost in the mists of time wrote: >I think the question of whether Anna loved Avon rather depends > on how you define 'love'. And a lot of wibbling ensued. It might be worth saying that some otherwise relatively normal people seem to find it simply impossible to love in any real sense. They can show affection or sexual interest, they can be excellent friends, they can be generous (especially if they sense a future pay-back), but they never give love or true trust. I would have put Anna in this category. Possibly Servalan too, depending on how seriously you take her sand-induced fit of the maudlins re Don Keller. I've also read a lot of fiction which assumed that Blake, for reasons of Cause and/or Federation mind-mangling, was incapable of love. The fact that Avon -- who finds it hard to love, but certainly succeeded with Anna at least -- was drawn to these two women (and possibly also in some sense Blake) thus becomes rather interesting, and possibly masochistic ? Tavia --When the fire and the rose are one ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 09:10:30 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] new souls for the faith Message-ID: <005f01c0294f$94d1b360$e1684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Claudia said: > Last night I introduced those who went through B5 last year to B7. > I had thoroughly warned them that budgets were nil and styles were > seventies, so they weren't in shock at production values. It recently occurred to me that in B7 "special effects" is used in the sense of "Special Olympics." -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 16:22:25 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] Kaldor City CDs Message-ID: <06cf01c0295f$f63e3dc0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a small amount about the forthcoming Kaldor City CDs in DWM this month, in the Gallifrey Guardian news section (p. 4). There's a photo of Russell Hunter and a VOC robot head, and mentions for Paul Darrow, Brian Croucher, Peter Tuddenham, Chris Boucher, Scott Fredericks and Peter Miles. Alan begs me to point out that the first CD will be out in the first quarter of 2001, but I couldn't possibly advertise. Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:30:43 -0400 From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Neil's conspiracy theories (was Typesetting preferences) Message-ID: <000201c02968$153f9540$4df25a0c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Una McCormack > > It's quite possible that I'm superimposing the film over it. I like both the book and the movie (of _The Princess Bride_ - there, context restored) but they're very different. The movie succeeds by stripping away the, umm, what to call it - metastory, maybe? - that anchors the book. --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 19:44:25 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction Message-ID: <001401c02973$c0820c20$64ee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katie wrote: >Oh, tell me I'm not the only person in the world who finds "Terminal" more depressing than "Blake". For some reason I spend all of "Terminal" thinking "Good-bye, Zen; Good-bye Liberator; Good-bye Cally; Good-bye curling iron guns; sniffle..." While in "Blake" I spend most of the episode thinking "no, you idiots! Don't do it!" You are not alone. I Hate "Terminal". It has a much greater sense of finality than "Blake". They all may have survived the shoot out in "Blake". After all, at the end Avon's still standing, the other Scorpio crew can be merely stunned and Blake's stomach wound doesn't need to be fatal. In "Terminal" we have the irrevocable loss of Liberator (somehow Scorpio's loss doesn't cause the same feeling of emptiness) and that's followed by Cally's death in "Rescue". Terminal/Rescue is my least watched tape, even Stardrive/Animals gets less chance to gather dust. [Well, I like the beginning of Stardrive, when they collide with that asteroid :-)] Marian ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 13:53:37 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Anna Message-ID: <200009281353_MC2-B504-A3B3@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Sally wrote: >I do get the feeling she had a personal loathing >of Servalan, and that led her to over-focus on the = >latter as the source of all 'evil' and the main obstacle > to her plans. She made the one mistake Blake didn't > (of course, Blake made quite a few others :-)) of = >*not* realising that the individual Power-That-Be's = >doesn't matter, that killing Servalan (or holding her = >prisoner) was of no use whatsoever if the machine > was still entrenched. No, that's the very theory which she argues against. It's the others who= don't get it: HOB: Servalan IS the Federation. Kill her and it's over. SULA: You're not really that naive, are you? HOB: I'm speaking for the others. It's what they believe. And probably one of the reasons they believe it is that Chesku and his li= ke keep spouting stuff about "our inspiration, our unity, our leader, President Servalan", but I incline to the notion that the more Chesku say= s something, the less Anna believes it. If it's so obvious to all of us that a one-off kidnapping by a small, single group could never change the system, why assume Anna was so stupid= that she missed it? She has to have another card to play, even it she doesn't tell the rebels what it is. One that I've toyed with is that Servalan has access to some sort of nuclear button (more likely to be und= er the President's personal control after the destruction of Star One) and that Anna can threaten the rest of the Federation that she'll use it if they don't give way. Or she has allies who will come in only if she succeeds with Stage One. We're reminded, too, throughout the episode, th= at there was an earlier uprising which has only just been crushed - she may have contacts with many more rebel groups than Hob's and be hoping for so= me sort of popular support (she's hardly got enough of them on site for a People's Council). One other thing: Servalan wasn't supposed to be the only hostage - large numbers of VIPs were expected to arrive at any moment for the dinner to celebrate the crushing of the resistance. If Grenlee hadn't got the warning out, they should all have walked straight into the trap. This might not have bothered an ambitious general very much if there was nothi= ng else to stop him bombing Residence One, but if there was any reason to hesitate it strengthened her hand. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 21:29:21 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <000201c0297c$c8632c40$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Murray > You've made a good point about fantasy films, particularly the ones you > mentioned by name. That said, I liked 'The Princess Bride' because I > thought that it was a good fantasy film, with the emphasis on romance and > comedy. To be fair, it wasn't intended to be satrical. True, and I think that's where it fell down, at least on the comedy front. Without any firm sense of direction, the film became just a platform for a random sequence of jokes, most of them not terribly good (I was especially diasppointed with Peter Cook's bishop. Peter Cook as a bishop ought to be outrageously funny, but it wasn't). I'd like to have seen more of a deliberate parody of the fairy tale genre, as Terry Gilliam did with 'Jabberwocky' (another rather dull film punctuated by moments of absolute hilarity, like the knights playing hide and seek). Thinking about it, my Ideal Fantasy Film would have a lot of elements in common with my Ideal B7 Movie. In particular a sense of a coherent, consistent background that makes you believe that events are happening in a beleivable other world (or galaxy, for B7). A consistency of design in things like props and costumes helps enormously here, but some designers seem to view SF/F as an excuse for over-indulgence. Star Wars, at least the first three, pulled this off pretty well, IMO. The sequels built on the groundwork laid down by the first, expanding and enriching the background without introducing any significantly jarring elements. Even the ewoks fit in, however much I hate the scabby flea-infested vermin. B7, on the other hand, wasn't nearly so consistent, even with episodes from the same writer (does TWB really belong in the same universe as Duel? I don't think so). Doctor Who had almost none at all, though that was almost a fundamental premise of the series' concept. Fantasy films also tend to spring a series of fantastic rabbits out of a hat, with little thought as to how all of these disparate wonders lock together in a plausible social, economic and political whole. I'd like to see a fantasy movie that tries to achieve just that. I'd also like to see (or rather hear) believable, unaffected dialogue, preferably laced with plenty of wit and cynicism and a smattering of in-world slang (there was a bit of this in B7, like Chris Boucher's use of 'slime' as a euphemism for 'shit'.) Humour should come *out of* the characters and situations rather than being imposed *on* them (the latter can work for parody, especially self-parody, but not something that takes itself seriously. And a good fantasy film should take itself seriously, though perhaps not earnestly). I'd be definitely put off by any plot that revolves around saving the world/galaxy from some external inimical Evil, especially if it's a straightforward Good vs Evil herofest where the good guys win out against totally unreasonable odds with seconds to spare. Exhilirating it might be, but it's also crap. On the fantasy-specific front, I'm definitely one for grim, gloomy, Gothic/Teutonic, with lots of chainmail. Give me Siegfried over Hercules any day. Chainmail doesn't really belong in my ideal B7 vision, nor really the Gothic bit, but grim and gloomy certainly. The hardest part in both cases is fitting in the penguins. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:00:21 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <002c01c02981$2abfb260$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit good fantasy film... hmmm.. time bandits... Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 21:24:49 +0200 From: Natasa Tucev To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re:[B7L] Anna Message-Id: <200009281924.VAA22933@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sally wrote: She made the one mistake Blake didn't (of course, >Blake made quite a few others :-)) of *not* realising that the individual >Power-That-Be's doesn't matter, that killing Servalan (or holding her >prisoner) was of no use whatsoever if the machine was still entrenched. This is an interesting question. The Federation is a dictatorship. Dictatorships usually have a dictator at the top. The death of a dictator usually marks the beginning of the end for a dictatorship (or at least its weakening). On the other hand, Servalan is not a 'charismatic leader' type (such as Stalin, or Orwell's BB, for instance) and the Federation's power is not embodied in any particular individual, but in Central Control/Star One and in the military in general. Natasa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 15:42:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "rita d'orac" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] VAT (was Zine Bindings) Message-ID: <383553863.970170174967.JavaMail.root@web302-mc.mail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith Proctor wrote: >But I presume that if you reclaim it, then you also have to charge it? (That >would rather defeat the object of keeping costs down) Yes, but you would not need to charge VAT on zero rated items such as magazines, books and newspapers. VAT chargeable and VAT claimable have separate definitions. This may make it worthwhile registering if your sales are mainly zines and other printer materials, but it would be a less clear-cut decision if you also sold Vatable items such as tapes & CDs. If you're not sure what counts as zero rated, check out the webiste of HM Customs & Excise (a bit difficult to navigate through, but the answer will usually be there somewhere): http://www.hmce.gov.uk/ Hope this helps Judith/Tavia/anybody else, but feel free to email me if you still want a bit more help (I think the lyst might be getting a little bored with VAT...? ). rita d'orac "If you think of this mouse as a space captain..." http://www.vilaworld.com ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:17:15 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <078001c02980$c8bbfdd0$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil wrote: > I'd be definitely put off by any plot that revolves around saving the > world/galaxy from some external inimical Evil, You're not going to like the LOTR movies then? > Chainmail doesn't really belong in my ideal B7 vision, nor really > the Gothic bit Apart from that piccie of Cally. > The hardest part in both cases is fitting in the penguins. They always find a way, the little slimes. Una ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:19:52 +0100 From: "DragonFly" To: , Subject: Dates of First Broadcast Message-ID: <003e01c029ee$0b838da0$a748883e@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am trying to obtain the dates on which each of the episodes were first broadcast. I have all dates for the first two series but I don't have any dates for the third and forth series...can anyone help. Oh I'm off to see Dear Brutus on Sat. 7th October - Next week!!!!!!! Julia - Loughborough. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:39:21 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Anna Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Harriet wrote: Yes, and then she goes on to say ... "Alive, Servalan can order her forces to disarm. Alive, Servalan can announce that she's standing down in favor of the People's Council, which you and the others will lead. Alive, Servalan can hand over power. Dead, she's just one more corpse." All of which indicates an overriding belief that Servalan's command to disarm will be effective. I don't believe it will. Anna's not stupid, but she is ignorant in *military* matters or high-level *totalitarian* politics (she was trained in the secret police, remember - aka Gestapo, KGB - she would be used to working very much alone. And from their talk, and Anna's bitterness, I shouldn't be surprised if Chesku kept his trophy wife right out of anything and everything where she could develop political nous or influence. Maybe that's why she *enjoyed* killing him so much. {This bit is of course totally uncanonical but fun - as a character, I prefer Chesku to Anna]). Then why doesn't she seem to take any precautions against possible alarms etc? Did she assume that everything *would* go so perfectly that there would be no need for a back-up force in case an alarm got through (as it did?) Why, if she has contacts outside, was there apparently no effort to get them to hold off any counter-attack? From the period between Greenlee's dying call for help and the very speedy arrival of Servalan's forces it's clear that *they* weren't impeded in getting there. So if Anna had back-up forces they were clearly either totally inadequate or blithely ignored the most obvious source of danger to their plans ... If she had another card, it appears to have been a joker, with the joke on her. Oh, I agree with this point, I think Anna definitely was expecting some support from outside once she had Servalan hand over power. I also think - given that she waits until *after* the rebels on Earth have been crushed and the military/civilian repression is back in full swing - that that comes under the heading of wishful thinking. Again, this isn't stupidity, but it is blinkered. But any half-way-decent plan would have allowed for the probability (almost a certainty) that an alarm *would* go out (after all, Greenlee and Forres are actually rather remiss by not hitting the alarm button as soon as they realised they were under attack). Anna isn't stupid, but - like every character in this wonderful series of ours - she does have her moments of jaw-dropping stupidity. And her fumbled part in Rumours is actually, wonderfully B7 - just as Avon and Vila are so totally unsuited to the roles of rebel heroes :-), as Servalan is so totally unsuited to the role of President, so Anna is actually unsuited to the role of coup leader. Obviously JMO ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:26:29 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <00e301c029a3$800fc8a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Una McCormack > Neil wrote: > > > I'd be definitely put off by any plot that revolves around saving the > > world/galaxy from some external inimical Evil, > > You're not going to like the LOTR movies then? Well, it *was* in the book... > > Chainmail doesn't really belong in my ideal B7 vision, nor really > > the Gothic bit > > Apart from that piccie of Cally. Different kind of gothic, as well you know. Now give it a fish and tell it to shut up. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:26:42 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <00e401c029a3$833b8d20$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Alison Page > good fantasy film... hmmm.. time bandits... Yup, it was good, but not the kind of fantasy I'm on about. 'Fantasy' is a problem term, since it can mean many different things, with plenty of scope for misinterpretation. The type I'm talking about here is actually quite narrow - a story set in a world that is not unlike our own at some point in our past, but yet is not our own and has no connection with it. This is the stuff of LotR and rpgs like ADnD. Yet, though Tolkien is amazingly popular (Book of the Century, remember?) and his second-rate imitators fill the shelves in bookshops, and the rpg market - fantasy-dominated, as I've already remarked - is sizable, there are surprisingly few films made in that genre. The Conan dirges, Hawk the Slayer, Krull (though that had SF leanings), a spate of cheap'n'nasty releases in the early 80s, of which The Beastmaster was probably the best, Red Sonja ... perhaps a few others. Oh yeah, a nasty piece of Boormanskraft called Legend. Non-qualifiers include Time Bandits (time travel through our historical past), Princess Bride (frame story set in the real world, and references to real world places in the fantasy text, eg Australia), Ladyhawke (not actually seen it, though I understand it has firm real world connections), Excalibur (one of my favourite films, but firmly set in the real world and drawn from real world legends), anything to do with Robin Hood (though the design work on Robin of Sherwood was exactly what I'd like to see), Xena/Hercules, and Harry Potter (when that makes it to the big screen). Which just goes to show I'm a tough bugger to please and I've only got myself to blame. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:30:56 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Neil's conspiracy theories (was Typesetting preferences) Message-ID: <00e501c029a3$851185a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: > > Seen it twice, actually. Enjoyed it, but can't say I loved it. > > Inconceivable! What? That I've seen it twice, that I enjoyed it, or that I didn't love it? > > They're only worth watching to see if the bird gets her kit off. > > And here I was thinking your hobby was watching the ones with feathers... They're the ones I actively go out looking for. I think I've got my priorities right. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:07:52 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction Message-ID: <00e701c029a3$87078940$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jeroen J. Kwast > Make that 3! I think Terminal is so depressing that I skip the tape it is on! I like Terminal because it *is* so depressing. Neil the Happy Chappy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 00:19:30 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Dates of First Broadcast Message-ID: <00e801c029a3$88712b60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: DragonFly > I am trying to obtain the dates on which each of the episodes were first > broadcast. I have all dates for the first two series but I don't have any > dates for the third and forth series...can anyone help. From Tony Attwood's Programme Guide: 3rd Season Every Monday for 13 weeks from 7th January 1980 to 31st March, except Children of Auron which went out on Tuesday 19th February. (I don't know why it went out a day later. My diary from that time doesn't say anything.) 4th Season Every Monday for 13 weeks from 28th September 1981 to 21st December. Hey, 19 years ago today. Hope that helps Neil ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:52:09 EDT From: B7Morrigan@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org Subject: [B7L] A:ATA Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know someone mentioned in the last few months that she (or he?) was trying to find a copy of Avon: A Terrible Aspect. There's one up for bid on eBay right now. The auction is: Blake's 7 Seven and Prisoner PB Lot Item #451301179 A:ATA is offered with two paperbooks from "The Prisoner." Morrigan Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 04:42:06 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Joanne wrote: Yes, but do admit, for someone with all the overt charm and social graces of your average Centauran mega-scorpion-with-teeth, he seems to inspire a startling amount of ... errr ... regard (even affection, if one uses the correct rose-coloured glasses) in a number of his crewmates. Not that any of them would probably like to have to explain *why* ... Now now, Joanne - one does not want one's Fantasy Object infected with any unpleasant realities, thank you. Fixating on how pretty he looks with his eyes closed (those eyelashes, mmmmmm ...) is not as much fun if one mentally add buzz-saw-SFX. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 07:48:21 -0700 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Welcome back Message-ID: In message <18.2d1bc2a.2703e08d@aol.com>, B7Morrigan@aol.com writes >Julia, > >Nice to see you back on list; we missed you. I hope the move wasn't too >stressful. Welcome to the US - and no, not everyone is a lunatic though >sometimes it does seem that way, especially when driving. > Haven't actually moved permanently yet - this is a preliminary trip to get some things sorted out (and see my husband for the first time since Easter). The permanent move is after the house is sold and I get my H4 visa, which I *hope* will be before Christmas. Currently thrashing around trying to get access to the News.CIS.DFN.DE free news server, in the course of which I discovered that the version of my software on this computer is three years old and won't talk to it until I upgrade. I'm so glad this is a mailing list and not a newsgroup... -- Julia Jones ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:05:06 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <20000928.232805.-88579.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 20:00:21 +0100 "Alison Page" writes: > good fantasy film... hmmm.. time bandits... > Ladyhawke, Labyrinth, Death Takes a Holliday (a bit pretentious, but it works), The Court Jester (it had a witch), The Devil and Daniel Webster, Beauty and the Beast (Disney's, the French version, and the TV show). What else? So long as I've thrown in TV, Gargoyles, Dungeons and Dragons, Alf Tales, Buffy, Angel, and Early Edition, and a lot of Twilight Zone episodes. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 22:55:12 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Anna & the nature of love Message-ID: <20000928.232804.-88579.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 28 Sep 2000 11:40:30 +0100 Tavia Chalcraft writes: > Someone lost in the mists of time wrote: > >I think the question of whether Anna loved Avon rather depends > > on how you define 'love'. > > And a lot of wibbling ensued. Question: What is wibbling? That aside, back to beating the dead horse. Yes, I've known of people who, IMHO, if they weren't capable of feeling love, did a very convincing imitation. Yes, I've come across definitions of love that make me ill (like ones based on pure lust [it's frightening the number of romance novels where the characters are ready to run off with each other on the basis of an relationship most people wouldn't consider lasting enough to ask the time (no, I _don't_ read them, but the checkout line is too long sometimes and there isn't much else to look at)]). However, I think love is also like conscience. It's a powerful force but one whose input can be overriden or even ignored. It's not an absolute. Was Anna capable of it? I'm inclined to believe her line about letting Avon go. Therefore, I'd probably say yes. OTOH, there are hints Chesku once thought she loved him, too. We all know how that turned out. > The fact that Avon -- who finds it hard to love, but certainly > succeeded > with Anna at least -- was drawn to these two women (and possibly > also in > some sense Blake) thus becomes rather interesting, and possibly > masochistic > ? > Hmm. In Anna's case, I think she initially aproached him as assignment. She obviously had a manipulative streak. At least in the beginning, she was looking for the best way to manipulate him. Just as obviously, she succeded. For the other two, part of it is that Blake appeals to the idealism Avon would sooner die than admit he has (actually, that he may _not_ have - but the fact that he keeps running into the fact that Blake's idealism is real and that it can appeal to him is just as bad). Servalan, OTOH, appeals to every ruthless pragmatism Avon claims to live by. The interesting thing there is how she both attracts and repels him. The thought of Avon lying on a couch explaining all his problems to a shrink seems a little hard to imagine. Maybe, if it was like Search for Spock, with Avon's memories and some parts of his psyche stuck in Vila who _would_ talk about it..... Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2000 23:34:07 +0200 From: Steve Kilbane To: "Neil Faulkner" Cc: "b7" , spinlist@whitecrow.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-Id: <200009282234.XAA25835@whitecrow.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [ Heading spin-ward... ] > Fantasy films also tend to spring a series of fantastic rabbits out of a > hat, with little thought as to how all of these disparate wonders lock > together in a plausible social, economic and political whole. I'd like to > see a fantasy movie that tries to achieve just that. But then, this thinking is endemic in the role-playing origins, too. Lew Pulisfer[1] muttered about the three Orcs in one room, and the bloody great dragon in the next, and wondered (a) what the hell did the dragon *eat*, down there, and (b) why wasn't it the Orcs next door..? > I'd be definitely put off by any plot that revolves around saving the > world/galaxy from some external inimical Evil, especially if it's a > straightforward Good vs Evil herofest where the good guys win out against > totally unreasonable odds with seconds to spare. Exhilirating it might be, > but it's also crap. Thing is, that's hard to get away from, from SF/F[2], to Bond[3], with every action film[4] going in between. As Una pointed out, Tolkien's[5] queered this particular pitch. It needs a reinvention, badly. Preferably by Gilliam[6] or Burton[7]. Unfortunately, the spectre of LOTR is going to spawn a series of pathetic Tours[8], when what we really need is something that's character-driven.[9] steve [1] Best of White Dwarf, yonks ago. [2] The Fifth Element, say. [3] Destroy Silicon Valley (View to a Kill), Oil Supplies (World is Not Enough), Gold Supplies (Goldfinger), etc. [4] Deadly contagions (Outbreak), Toxins (The Rock, Airforce One), Bombs (The Peacemaker), etc. [5] Book of the Century, mainly because it's the only book most people have read. That's what they think fantasy is, period. [6] Time Bandits, Brazil. [7] Batman, Sleepy Hollow. [8] The Rough Guide to Fantasyland, Dianna Wynne Jones. You *will* visit every sodding place named on the Map at the start of the book. [9] Namely, anything by Guy Gavriel Kay, or someone like Mary Gentle or Sheri Tepper. ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 2000 08:25:43 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] OFFTOPIC Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <86r963lno8.fsf@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>> "Alison" == Alison Page writes: > good fantasy film... hmmm.. time bandits... "Chinese Ghost Story". But it's based on Chinese myth, so it isn't fantasy enough for Neil. Same goes for "Mononoke Hime" (except that's Japanese myth). Rutger Hauer has been in two halfway decent fantasy movies, "Ladyhawke" and "Flesh and blood". -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "...a festering realization that all you do is no more than the futile slapping of paint onto the rotting, decayed infrastructure of the Information Superhighway." -- Jinx_tigr ------------------------------ Date: 29 Sep 2000 11:02:54 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] OFFTOPIC Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: <86zokrbmf5.fsf_-_@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>> "Neil" == Neil Faulkner writes: > a story set in a world that is not unlike our own at some point in > our past, but yet is not our own and has no connection with it. That must be one of the most flawed definitions of fantasy I've ever seen. How can a world at the same time be "not unlike our own at some point in our past" yet have "no connection with it"? Even if you chose interpretations of "unlike" and "connection" that are wide/narrow enough to make the definition make some sort of sense, it throws out works that are generally agreed to be fantasy. For example, Tanith Lee's World Fantasy Award winner "Death's Master" gets thrown out, because that world is nothing like our own at any point in time (unless you weaken "like" to the point of being totally meaningless), and Donaldson's series about Thomas Covenant gets thrown out because Covenant _comes_ from our world. If you're a bit picky with the "connection" stuff, Lord of the Rings goes as well, since Gandalf and most of the dwarves appear in the Elder Edda. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "Just about anything can be done if you are demented enough." -- Christopher C. Petro, scary.devil.monastery ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:48:07 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20000929114535.009d9df0@pop3.wish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 15:42 28-9-00 -0500, J MacQueen wrote: >>From: Jacqueline Thijsen >>Hmph, just another bloody amateur. > > Now there's a slogan. For someone... I'm going to think about that and if I decide that it means what I think it means, someone's going to be spending a long time in the comfy chair. With the teletubbies and the karaoke. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 11:50:11 +0200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Introduction Message-Id: <5.0.0.25.0.20000929114824.009db7d0@pop3.wish.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:31 28-9-00 +0100, Una McCormack wrote: >Jacqueline wrote: > > > At 07:59 28-9-00 -0500, J MacQueen wrote: > > > > >>From: "Una McCormack" > > >>and a demand for great wodges of cash. > > > > > >Ooh, that's what I call paying for your sins. I think GITHOG have just > > >found a Jacqueline-without-Tellytubbies equivalent. > > > > Hmph, just another bloody amateur. > >The Teletubbies are indeed a cruel and unusual punishment, but I prefer the >straightline simplicity of extortion. There's something to be said for that, I suppose. It's the results that count, after all. But there's no reason why getting those results shouldn't be fun... Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2000 09:02:03 +0100 From: Russ Massey To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy, satire and princess brides Message-ID: In message <00e401c029a3$833b8d20$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>, Neil Faulkner writes >Yet, though Tolkien is >amazingly popular (Book of the Century, remember?) and his second-rate >imitators fill the shelves in bookshops, and the rpg market - >fantasy-dominated, as I've already remarked - is sizable, there are >surprisingly few films made in that genre. The Conan dirges, Hawk the >Slayer, Krull (though that had SF leanings), a spate of cheap'n'nasty >releases in the early 80s, of which The Beastmaster was probably the best, >Red Sonja ... perhaps a few others. Oh yeah, a nasty piece of Boormanskraft >called Legend. > You might like 13th Warrior. To quote the blurb on the DVD: "Antonio Banderas brings huge star power to an immensely thrilling action-adventure. An exiled ambassador far from his homeland, Ahmed (Banderas) comes across a fierce band of warriors who are being attacked by ferocious creatures legendary for devouring all living things in their path! And when an old fortune teller warns the combatants that they are doomed to failure without a 13th warrior, Ahmed is given no choice but to join their battle and help conquer the mysterious enemy!" Fortunately the film is *much* better than the above makes it sound. Ahmed is a sybaritic Arab poet who was made ambassador to the court of Kiev after an embarrassing incident at court. He encounters a group of raiding Vikings and is forcibly adopted by them when they return North to defend their homes against 'troll' attack. Initially all the Viking dialogue is in Norse, but Ahmed gradually, over a period of weeks, begins to pick up the language and occasional words and sentences become understandable until finally we hear all the communication as English. It's very well done. The combat scenes are also excellent. It's a bit like a Dark Age Magnificent Seven, and there are several plot holes that made me go 'But...! (frex - how come these trolls live in the bleak mountains caves and have become unseen myth for decades yet somehow manage to have a herd of several hundred horses?) but overall it's a nice, bleak, grungy real-world fantasy. > -- Russ Massey -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #272 **************************************