From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #281 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/281 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 281 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy & SF viewpoint [ "Una McCormack" ] Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Deat [ "Dana Shilling" ] [B7L] sad news [ JEB31538@cs.com ] Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Deat [ "Sally Manton" ] [B7L] Re: Fantsy vs SF As I've alrea [ Helen Krummenacker ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Penny Dreadful ] Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen [ "Ellynne G." ] [B7L] Owning Liberator [ "Ellynne G." ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Ellynne G." ] Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy & SF viewpoint [ "Nyder" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy & SF viewpoints Message-ID: <00e101c0304a$e82adc10$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil: > I know Tolkien was > born in either South Africa or Namibia but I've no idea what influence that > had on him. South Africa, but he left when he was very young. Catholicism is the greatest influence on Tolkien, without a doubt. Una ------------------------------ Date: 7 Oct 00 04:20:27 PDT From: Jacqui Speel To: Penny Dreadful , blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Re: [B7L] Something else about Star One (as the old Star One argument)] Message-ID: <20001007112027.26619.qmail@wwcst269.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or the computers know (as with some encryptation programmes). Problem tho= ugh if the computer goes like Hal... Penny Dreadful wrote: At 08:40 PM 10/4/00 +0000, Sally Manton wrote: >There's the fact that some brainless PWB decided that its location shoul= d be >so secret that they can't even get to it when it starts playing up? Maybe it's only kept secret from the important people like Servalan and h= er military ilk who might get ideas in their greedy little heads..."No-One Knows Where Star One Is" is accepted by the people in power the way "Destroy Control And You Destroy The Federation" was drilled into all reb= el rabble until Pressure Point...but in fact there is a network of condition= ed technicians ready to snap into action at the first squawk of distress fro= m Star One...but unfortunately the Andromedans got them all as soon as they= landed. ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 05:20:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Penberriss Wendy S." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Horizon 22 Message-ID: <20001007122055.25081.qmail@web5201.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everyone, I was on Horizon's site the other day and they said that the new Horizon, #22, is out! Congradulations to all concerned, but shouldn't that be #40? Wendy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos - 35mm Quality Prints, Now Get 15 Free! http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:55:27 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 22 Message-ID: <000a01c0305d$e71b6d40$31ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wendy wrote: >I was on Horizon's site the other day and they said that the new Horizon, #22, is out! Congradulations to all concerned, but shouldn't that be #40?< #40 is the Horizon newsletter, which we're still eagerly awaiting. #22 is the new Horizon zine. [Yes, both having the same name is a bit confusing :-)] Marian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 10:26:18 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: <005101c0306b$bf57a540$10684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally said: > whereas I've got him pegged as someone with very little interest in > food, and with almost non-existent experience, interest or skill in cooking > - the sort who, if Zen wasn't there to reconsititute the concentrates for > them, would simply eat whatever first came to hand and didn't need any > preparation. And is more than capable of completely forgetting a meal or two > when he's working, for that matter. I think that Avon is at all convinced that being human rather than a computer is any sort of advantage, or that having a body at all provides reasonable value for the trouble it creates--with certain compensations, one of which is really good food. > > Vila I can see as reasonably non-disastrous in whatever sort of kitchen the > future holds, and I'm convinced he has a veeerrry sweet tooth (and likes > cheap candy). Agreed! Gan could probably manage good plain cookery of the kind we're > taught in schools :-); Agreed!Jenna lives on diet shakes and polystyrene cakes > anyway; Cally has Auron taste buds, so anything's possible. Yes! Blake quite > possibly knows how to do the bush tucker bit (one can imagine him killing > and gutting the local giant-icky-grub-thingies, then getting rather tetchy > when his loyal crew all refuse point-blank to touch, let alone eat, them) I think the Federation has obligatory National Service, preceded by obilgatory Patrol Scouts, so I presume everyone has been taught how to make campfires, kill and gut giant-icky-grub-thingies, etc.--although I'm sure certain elements forgot that VERY quickly. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 10:30:53 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Fantasy, SF and all that stuff Message-ID: <005201c0306b$c1786260$10684e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil said: > Of course, in the series the Federation was real enough, and Blake had good > reasons to fight it. But what - not who - is Blake, and what are the > Federation? Blake is an Alpha, at the top of the social pile. I've written a couple of stories in which Blake is the management and Avon is the shop steward of the Rebel's Union local (not that he wants to be, the union won't let him quit). > > What Federation? There is no Federation out there. It only exists in our > heads, to assure us that we're on the side of the angels. There is ALWAYS a Federation out there, and we have to keep reminding ourselves to lessen our complicity with it. > > I don't see anything particularly subversive about middle class angst. Depends on what we do with it. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 18:58:33 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Fantasy, SF and all that stuff Message-ID: <000e01c0307f$dba3d160$31ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dana wrote: >I've written a couple of stories in which Blake is the management and Avon is the shop steward of the Rebel's Union local (not that he wants to be, the union won't let him quit). Sounds intriguing. Are they available somewhere? I don't think I would be happy with having Avon for shop steward, as he seems to be always ending up doing what Blake (as the management) wants. :-) Marian ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 15:22:08 EDT From: JEB31538@cs.com To: freedom-city@blakes-7.org, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] sad news Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have just learned of the unexpected death of Joy Baker today. I didn't know her very well, but in the approximate five years I did know her, I found her to be a very gracious nice lady. For those who don't know, Joy Baker ran THE FANDOM CONNECTON which had just been renamed from THE NEW MONTHLY. I believe this ran for the past five years or so. The NEW MONTHLY was something Joy Baker and a friend did when they took over from THE MONTHLY which had run about 10 or so years. Originally, these publications were monthly adzines, describing what all was in print and available to buy. There were no restrictions on zines advertized as long as they were clearly and accurately labeled. In the last few years, Joy had changed the format a little. At one time she had made it a quarterly. Just recently it was back on a monthly basis with big issues coming out, I think, four times a year. Joy was very open to B7 ads, and her publication carried quite a few. She was always eager for articles and one of the first things I did for her was an article on Blake's 7. I did several articles for her, and she always was sure to say, "Thanks." When your subscription was up, she always sent a handwritten little note. If any of you did know Joy Baker and want to send sympathy Emails to her sister Jill Wood, her Email follows. Jill could only notify people directly that she found in her sister's Email address book. I think I had last corresponded with Joy about two or three weeks ago. Jill Wood k-jwood@worldnet.att.net Joyce Bowen ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 20:40:30 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Dana wrote: 'Tis possible (compulsory youth organsations ARE very popular in totalitarian regimes) but it's just so hard to imagine My Darlings in this ... Vila would have quickly managed to develop some sort of medical exemption ("I can't go, Mum - I've got this bone in my leg ..."), Avon would simple have considered himself above the whole thing, and I hate to imagine the first time one of the Troop leaders tried to give young Roj an order he didn't care for (or possibly any order at all). How fast could he get drummed out of a compulsory service, do you think? Gan I can see (poor Gan, so much virtue really is its own punishment, isn't it?) Jenna and Tarrant could've been in some sort of Junior Pilot wing of the FSA - Jenna learned enough to fly her own ship then shot through, Tarrant dutifully signed up for service. On the guest star side, one can definitely see Ro, Tynus and Del Grant, but oh my poor Jarriere ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:36:32 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: In message <39DDCF58.298B172@centurytel.net>, mistral@centurytel.net writes >Oh, very well said. I agree 98%; however one should be aware of the >basic assumption that underlies your argument - that science has the >capability to investigate everything that exists; that the physical world >is the total sum of existence. Science does indeed have the capability to investigate everything that exists. That's what science *is*. A way of looking at the universe that says one can try to understand how it works. It does not make any claims to be able to ultimately *know* everything that is, and indeed the philosophy of science says that this is not possible. (No, I'm not going through the details - just reading those guys makes my head hurt.) Nor does science say that the physical world is the total sum of existence - just that the physical world is that part of existence which science deals with. Both of the assumptions that you claim underlie Alison's argument are made mainly by non-scientists, although admittedly you do get the occasional plonker of a scientist making them as well. Incidentally, I regard Una's work as qualifying as science, whereas I'd consider a lot of her colleagues to be using the word "science" to try and give spurious validity to their personal prejudices. This is not because she's a list-sib and therefore an ok person, it's because she applies scientific methodology. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:36:13 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: In message <200010070917.LAA25178@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>, Natasa Tucev writes >This is of course true as far as material reality >is concerned, but what happens to my inner being? (Of course I can always >boil the scientist with some potatoes and go on worshiping my Sun God). By >providing an answer which is satisfactory only to our intellect, and what's >much worse, by leading us to believe that it is only our intellect which >needs to be satisfied, science dissociates us from the world. The problem is >that we need statements which do not only explain to us the material >reality, but also our response to it, our psyche, and the connection between >these. Science cannot provide such statements, literature can. What a load of bollocks. Yes, I know, I'm being offensive. But the above statement is being offensive to me. Apparently the spiritual satisfaction I get from my work as a scientist (and my hobbies as a scientist - I'm looking forward to moving out from under industrial Teesside's light pollution) is a figment of my imagination. One of the problems I have with hard core Christian fundamentalists (no, I do *not* mean anyone on this list) is their insistence that this little world is all there is, that God created the world in seven days some four thousand years ago. I can't understand how people would rather have that than the grandeur and glory of the universe I know as an amateur astronomer. A Creator responsible for *that* is a damn sight more impressive than a patriarchal figure in a long white shirt. "Science" as taught in schools is often made out to be no more than a collection of facts to be learnt by rote. This is the antithesis of science. Science is an exploration of the universe around us, an appreciation of why things work the way they do, and most of the scientists I know get much aesthetic pleasure from the process. The ones who don't are working as technicians, not scientists, and have been deprived of the things that make science *fun*. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 22:30:15 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <003c01c030a6$2352b0a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Natasa said - >If I'm a member of a >primitive pagan tribe who believes that the Sun God rises up every morning >to keep me warm and protect me, it is a statement which tends to explain to >me not only Nature, but also my place in it and my own emotions. Then a >scientist comes and tells me, 'Oh no, it's just a star with nuclear >reactions on the surface.' This is of course true as far as material reality >is concerned, but what happens to my inner being? You know I'm at home with some kind of flu today, and this comment has been rolling around in my mind, giving me something to think about when I'm too tired to even watch TV. I think the problem here is not science but the transition from one view of reality to another, which must be painful to adjust to. I find cosmology (nuclear reactions in stars etc.) very inspiring. But then I haven't had to radically adjust to it in a colonial situation. I think it's natural for spirituality to adapt as our world view changes. But when that is forced change, then I expect it is quite painful. So perhaps fantasy is a natural reaction to forced change. This ties in with what Neil was saying about the industrial revolution. Interestingly of course the production of B7 did coincide with a period of forced industrial and economic change in Britain. However I think that was a coincidence. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 12:30:15 -0400 From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Star One (was Anna & the nature of love) Message-ID: <001c01c030a6$fa1bbc80$5cf35a0c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Marian de Haan > > IMHO it would have been more in Blake's nature to answer Cally's > many-many-deaths remark with something like: "Yes, I know, but if we don't > crush the Federation now we have the chance, many more people will continue > to die under its boot. I don't want to take the responsibility for that, > Cally." But he's talking to Cally, who is the one person on the ship he's expect to take the necessity of destroying the Federation as read. He's continuing a conversation that he's been having with himself for long enough that I think he's forgotten he's never had it with her, about how many lives - and whose - freedom is worth. I mean, he's not at his best, but I don't think the answer is wildly out of character - just considerably more open than usual. --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:17:32 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen Message-ID: <39DF92EB.61@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have to say, I'd weigh in with the "just eats what's handy" school of thought. I would say cookery is more for a sensualist (like Vila, who is, however lazy, and may not cook much though he really cares about the taste). I would guess Gan or Jenna as the best 1st-2nd season cook. Gan has to be a hearty eater, so I'd guess he had a good parental cook and learned a few things. Also, since he deals more with fact than theory, something tangible like a good meal would appeal more to him as a talent to be learned than, say astrophysics. Jenna, as a smuggler, seems likely to have operated in small groups or alone enough that she couldn't rely on others cooking for her. Avon probably cares about the nutritional content of what he eats. "Dammit, Vila! Fried cheese sandwiches? I haven't ran up and down a quarry all week. You're going to get us all fat. Not to mention, we're going to have to pick up more vitamin supplements. How can I think without enough zinc in my diet?" Who wouldn't cook, for sure? Tarrant, I suspect, has about zero cooking knowlege. Too menial for him (or for Servalan!). Blake was living on drugged food, right? So that makes cooking from scratch unlikely for him. OTOH, he does seem to have some idea of how to handle himself outdoors so perhaps he got a cooking merit badge in Beyond-dome Scouts, and just had to get his memory back. Avon? Cooking is repetitious and unconstructive from the point of view of you just have to do it again next meal. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 14:52:01 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Fantsy vs SF As I've already said, I consider Pratchett primarily a humourist rather than a fantasist, but his love of the genre and awareness of its shortcomings is undeniable. His lampoons can be deliciously sharp. Message-ID: <39DF9B00.A9E@jps.net> References: <20001007104932.0303F2408AC5@mail.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > As I've already said, I consider Pratchett primarily a humourist rather than > a fantasist, but his love of the genre and awareness of its shortcomings is > undeniable. His lampoons can be deliciously sharp. > Well, yes, you've said that, Neil. But I was writing for the benefit of those who don't define fantasy as narrowly as you. You seem to be looking at one sub-genre, calling it the entire genre, and then denying the rest of the genre as actually being fantasy. We also are probably using difffernet definitions on the political terms. What I understand them to mean: liberal... wanting change conservative... against change radical... wanting a fast, revolutionary rate of change and reactionary... wanting to change things *back* to a standard held in the past. However, in the context of fantasy and politicalism, I was looking at how the characters react to the society they are in, as mythological heroes (and this started out as a discussion of myth being a reinforcemnt of the status quo) must be defenders of their society. In the examples I gave, I referred to people rebelling against their society and becoming outlaws. Yes, modern culture celebrates the outlaw, but mythology isn't supposed to. So I suppose the real conclusion should be modern fantasy is *not* mythological except in outward trappings. Anyhow, Neil, you are correct in thinking popular fiction, as a whole, is not going to overthrow the norms of the culture it was written in. That applies to all genres. And yes, cyberpunk does warn of corporate power getting out of hand, but I've seen fantasy mixed in with cyberpunk, so it can blend SF and F. Have you ever tried writing fantasy? Your 'orcs are the downtrodden masses' rant-beginning actually sounds like you could give lie to your theory about Fantasy not being subversive. Write the orcs. Let them rise up and overthrow their evil overlord, set up their own nation, and ally with the peasents of other societies to kill off the High King, etc. Or better yet... move it into Middle Earth's future. Then the orcs can rebel against unfair treatment at the Grey Havens shipyards, where they work for lousy wages so the few remaining elves can live a life of luxury off their labour. Burn the Boats! Valinor No More! But then you'd call it satire instead of fantasy. *sigh* There's no way to win this. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:19:31 -0600 From: Penny Dreadful To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-Id: <4.1.20001007160534.00945b10@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:17 AM 10/7/00 +0200, Natasa Tucev wrote: >If I'm a member of a >primitive pagan tribe who believes that the Sun God rises up every morning >to keep me warm and protect me, it is a statement which tends to explain to >me not only Nature, but also my place in it and my own emotions. Then a >scientist comes and tells me, 'Oh no, it's just a star with nuclear >reactions on the surface.' This is of course true as far as material reality >is concerned, but what happens to my inner being? (Of course I can always >boil the scientist with some potatoes and go on worshiping my Sun God). Mmm, boiled scientist, so tender you could eat it with a spoon. I think you probably *would* do so (go on worshiping your Sun God, at least--why should you believe this scientist's story? Does he have any proof of his claims? I know from years of personal experience harassing people at parties that one can't make anyone believe anything by logic alone, even if one gets one's victims drunk first) except that the scientist probably didn't hack his way into your neck of the woods *just* to burst your Sun God bubble: after telling you about the sun I'll bet his next words are, "say, this is a real swell rainforest you've got here, how'd you like to swap it for some shiny baubles and the right to continue breathing?" Next thing you know your culture is all higgledy-piggledy and you've got educators smacking your children upside the head if they talk about Sun Gods but giving them gold stars if they can rote recite "it's just a star with nuclear reactions on the surface". Most people believe mindlessly in the prevailing institution, and now science rather than superstition becomes the prevailing institution, at least with regards to the sun. I think that's how your scientist's worldview wins out--superior firepower. So on the negative side you no longer feel an emotional bond with Mr. Plasma Ball In The Sky, but on the positive side you no longer feel the need to sacrifice Edward Woodward after every bad harvest (hmm, perhaps that's a negative as well). IMHO. ObB7...um. Hey, on Cygnus Alpha there's the process in reverse, people moving from (mindlessly believing in) science to (mindlessly believing in) superstition, because Vargas has Superior Firepower. Really though I think Vargas *must* have been in touch with some higher power but all it could do was keep his shoes *incredibly clean*. Off To Celebrate Thanksgiving (I Am Canadian!) --Penny -- "Why would anybody eat snails on purpose?" -Angela Anaconda ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 17:45:52 -0600 From: Penny Dreadful To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Re: [B7L] Something else about Star One (as the old Star One argument)] Message-Id: <4.1.20001007115224.00941e20@mail.powersurfr.com> Message-Id: <4.1.20001007115224.00941e20@mail.powersurfr.com> Message-Id: <4.1.20001007115224.00941e20@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:20 AM 10/7/00 -0700, Jacqui Speel wrote: >Or the computers know (as with some encryptation programmes). Problem though >if the computer goes like Hal... But then wouldn't Orac have been able to find it out fairly easily? -- For A Dread Time, Call Penny: http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 00:36:39 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Penny Dreadful wrote: Clearly made of the same stuff as Servalan's 'Orac' outfit, and it equally clearly only comes in one colour ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 00:02:35 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: B7 Lyst Subject: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <39E00DFB.13D78EAE@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I've been reading this fascinating intellectual discussion about the nature of science and its relationship to human spiritual needs, and the definitions of science fiction and fantasy and what roles they fill in society... and for some reason, all I can think about is the food thread.:) So, below we have my speculation on the original characters' food preferences/preparation skills. Avon: Appreciates a well-cooked meal... when *he's* not the one who has to cook it. Occasionally regrets the fact that, as a wanted rebel, he doesn't get much opportunity to eat at decent restaurants. Left to fend for himself, will subsist largely on convenience foods (the equivalent of frozen microwave dinners). Has one pasta dish which he makes (with considerable ill-grace) when the others aboslutely *insist* it's his turn to cook. They've pretty much stopped insisting, though, because they're all sick of it, and Avon takes it very badly if they dare complain. Blake: Favorite meal is steak and potatoes with lots of brown bread and dark beer, but has a cast-iron stomach and will eat absolutely *anything*. Can, indeed, gut, spit and roast wild animals, and occasionally wins the Most Interesting Sandwich competition with Vila, but otherwise is charmingly hopeless in the kitchen. And refuses to recognize the fact, because *he's* perfectly happy to eat his own cooking. Vila: Creates huge Dagwood sandwiches out of the most *interesting* variety of ingredients. Loves junk food, and can frequently be found snacking on the equivalent of potato chips or Twinkies. Bustles cheerfully about the kitchen when it's his turn to cook, making a huge mess which he will later do his best to get out of cleaning up. Nobody ever knows whether the results will be a culinary masterpiece, or something utterly inedible. Cally: Creates nutritionally-balanced meals featuring leafy green vegetables and whole grains. Lectures the others constantly on how they need to eat better, and occasionally slips vitamin supplements into their soma when they're not looking. Quite possibly a vegetarian. Jenna: Likes juicy steaks, rich desserts, fresh, crisp salads, and quality liquors, but is also quite capable of existing on survival rations for weeks with little complaint. Is competent but uninspired in the kitchen, except for a couple of kick-ass dessert recipes and an uncanny ability to whip up a half-decent meal when it seems like there's nothing in the pantry. Will hear no complaints about her cooking, declaring "Well, that's what you're getting, take it or leave it." Gan: Major meat and potatoes type. Regards "fancy" foods with a bit of suspicion, but will eat anything given him, out of politeness. Competent at cooking meat-and-potatoes stuff, and has a couple of slightly more elaborate dishes that he trots out occasionally (like a couple of Chinese dishes or something). When it's his turn to cook, he asks for the others' approval of each item on the menu because he doesn't want to cook something one of them might not like. -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 23:17:02 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen Message-ID: <20001008.003043.-84265.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Avon: Probably _wouldn't_ bother much unless it became an issue of proving he could do it better than everyone else. Jenna: A while back, someone said Jenna was the type to like country music and not give a @#*! what anyone else thought about it. I see her cooking as about the same. She works out a lot, but there are a lot of traditional Texan dishes being cranked out whenever she's making dinner (lots of easy made, fried stuff, beer, and bean dishes [she works out a _lot_]). Gan: Very good at warming up leftovers, heating cans of soup, etc. but he makes a killer submarine sandwich. Dayna: She brought home the kill and let Dad sort out what to do with it. Tarrant: Very good at heating up army rations but even better at 'Private, go get us some food.' Soolin: Hard as it is to imagine her cooking, I can't see Dorian making the meals. Blake: Didn't eat red grapes when the pickers were on strike. Feels guilty about any food produced in a country with unfair labor laws. Deals with it by eating very old canned stuff that predates the present regime or by eating small, furry things he caught himself (preferably ones like rabbits that, like any Federation tyrant, were preying on the gardens of exploited, honest worker types). Vila: I actually decided Vila had a cooking background once. 1) He produces a good meal when trying to talk everyone into going to see a certain duel. 2) For some reason, I was thinking of the Dr. Who episode where the Doctor remembers a little too late that 'doctor' was seaman slang for the ship's cook. It earned him some instant popularity. It seemed like the kind of thing Vila would aim for on his many prison ship voyages if he could. 3) It all happened at a time when I was getting revved up for the holidays and spending lots of time in the kitchen. It had to spill over onto somebody. See the above list for why Vila won. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 00:30:42 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Owning Liberator Message-ID: <20001008.003044.-84265.2.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know that I'm taking this idea seriously, but since it occurred to me, here goes. Why did Avon have such an attitude about his rights to the ship (besides being Avon, that is)? Blake was the one who'd disarmed the deathtrap and Jenna was the one who was first in rapport with Zen. What gives? Blake's interest is obvious. He was probably the only one who could disarm the death trap and he would have this attitude towards any weapon fate handed him to fight the Federation with even if it weren't such a big one on such a large silver platter. I keep thinking that what makes the most sense is if Avon either expected it to show up or arranged for it to be there, both of which are unlikely. I had a scenario how the fleet Liberator destroyed could have been the rebel groups Avon was working with (probably for a fee) to rescue Blake, but that says nothing about Liberator unless he felt it should have been his compensation prize after it ruined the other, perfectly good plan. After all, it's hard to see how anyone outside of the System could have done anything with Liberator. And that's when the latest idea came to me. Suppose, for a moment, Avon _was_ from the System, someone important enough to be a major player but not fully integrated into the... er... system (so to speak) like the Altas. Ignoring plot problems with Redemption (to be ironed out later) this almost works. He's a major computer expert with enough information floating around his head, you'd have expected him to have downloaded stuff directly to his brain sometime in the past, just what a high ranking System exile (who'd gotten rid of the plug in his brain [or switched it off]) should be. He caught onto how Liberator worked because (with a few modifications) he'd designed it. He was extremely cold and unemotional because he was from an even less emotional environment than Federation Alphadom. He said Cally was more human than he was because she was. And the fleet was actually the one the Federation sent to make sure Blake and the London had an accident. Liberator destroyed it but certain safety features (see modifications above) were triggered which, fortunately, Blake could untrigger (although going onboard with the one guy who could deactivate it seems like quite a coincidence). Still begs the question why Avon chose this route to get back 'his' ship, but it explains Anna Grant. Good grief, she must have been practically the first woman he ever dated. No wonder he never knew what was going on and made a mess of it. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 00:14:29 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <20001008.003044.-84265.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sat, 7 Oct 2000 21:36:32 +0100 Julia Jones writes: > In message <39DDCF58.298B172@centurytel.net>, mistral@centurytel.net > writes > >Oh, very well said. I agree 98%; however one should be aware of the > >basic assumption that underlies your argument - that science has > the > >capability to investigate everything that exists; that the physical > world > >is the total sum of existence. > > Science does indeed have the capability to investigate everything > that > exists. That's what science *is*. Actually, not quite. It's been a while since I had to write anything about Plato's two worlds - spirit/mind and physical - but I think I can still summarize the basics. Science deals only with the physical world and it deals with it in a particular way - it asks _how_ something happens. Action-reaction is a science style statement. The action was feeling rather blue and put out, provoking an annoyed and exasperated reaction is not. This is why there's the old riddle about how to prove someone else thinks. You know _you_ do but you can't actually prove anyone else does (it's that old math deal about having to prove something works for both k and k+1 before you can prove it works for all k+a's [I sometimes wonder how pretensious the extremely ecletic collections of trivia I toss into arguments must sound. Trivia, alas, remains my gift [politer term than 'neurotic compulsion']). This is not a bash on science. Science is an extremely useful tool but, like any tool, its limits need to be recognized. When these limits aren't acknowledged you get self-contradictory statements like the ones from some of the scientists studying the brain (physical and functional elements, I'm not talking psychiatry). They will tell you that they don't include thought per se as part of their study because it's subjective (Plato's first world [it was Plato, wasn't it? I'd hate to be getting mixed up on philosophers]). Then, they go off and explain how thought doesn't exist (you just _think_ you think) because they've found no evidence of it! Augh! Only in the most crooked of legal trials is the _exclusion_ of evidence usable as evidence of the _nonexistance_ of the evidence excluded!!!! Wait, I've done this rant before, haven't I? Oh, well, in for a penny (er, nondreadful, of course).... And I _wish_ I could drill it into people the part that world view plays in these things! I knew a guy who told about dealing with a land development issue in the west. One of the people he worked with was a Navajo with an afro (it was the 70's) and a wardrobe John Travolta could envy. In short, the guy looked about as absorbed into mainstream American culture as you could get. For most of the discussions, he seemed about as absorbed as you could get. Then, he said, "You know, it's wrong for you to kill coyote. He's a god. If you kill him, the rains won't come." Now, a scientist might prove that, if you kill coyote, the prairie dog population explodes. They build more burrows, causing errosion, leading to drought. Then the scientist gets all excited and tells the Navajos, "Hey, you're right! Kill the coyotes, then this and this happens, leading to drought." And they say (slowly and distinctly, the way you do to a small child who is obviously missing the point [well, I wouldn't call excessive condescension the Navajo style, but this is for translation purposes]), "Coyote is a _god_. If you kill Coyote, the rains won't come." The point being the scientist assumed, once he had a mechanical explanation, that the meaning of it all _was_ the mechanical explanation _alone_. The Navajo in question might accept it as the explantion of _how_ but not for the _why_ that the scientist tagged onto it. The other weakness in world view is to assume your world view is 'true' and others are just 'world views.' This has been my week to remember how I ran into some world view shake ups myself a few years ago in one country (long story, but you begin to realize there are assumptions you never realized were assumptions) although, actually, world view challenges are pretty frequent, these were just coming from an unheard of direction. Standard history text book example: ancient Egyptians lived in a relatively benign environment with a fairly reliable food source. They created gods who could get moody but were, overall, benign and stable forces when compared to the nastier gods of Babylon, who faced unpredictable floods, droughts, disease, etc. and created gods with a really nasty temperment. Compare the orderly afterlife Egyptians expected to the one Ishtar wandered into. Well and good. Now, let's look at Darwin. Darwin came along when factory mills and various other factors that promoted a mechanistic view were firmly entrenched. Factories didn't adapt to the human factor. They forced humans to adapt to them, often treating them as nothing more than another piece of machinery. And Darwin produces a creation story that mirrors his environment, a mechanistic one with the anthropomorphic (i.e. human) elements stripped away (skipping side elements about the idea of progress and the name _evolution_ instead of the longer though more accurate adaptation through random mutation and genetic drift [as they say, only a man would have come up with that name because no woman is going to go on record calling live mammalian birth an _improvement_ (or no woman who knows what nine months pregnant and labor feels like)]). This one of those mindwarping moments. I can't discard Darwin's ideas simply because I can see the clear connection between them and his environment. But that means I cannot use the world view argument to discard other ideas, even if its Babylonian theology (which is not on my list of valid belief systems, all the same). Whether or not I'm into sun worship, the knowledge that the sun funtions through fusion would not necessarily change that. The scientist may say it's 'just' a nuclear reaction, but that need not effect my thinking anymore than a reasonably accurate knowledge of biology effects theological views on the soul (I don't know of one deist who lost faith over red blood cells anymore than I know of any atheists converted over four chambered hearts). Have a further supply of examples, but will call it quits with a few B7 connections. I actually like the way Blake sometimes reflects a different culture (to me, anyway). He's a democrat who never quite escapes the class system he grew up in. He believes in government by the people, so long as its autocratically run. Of course, he's also been brain washed to accept the status quo, so the examples may not be valid. Actually, this is another reason why I find Avon so interesting. He may have less of a problem with the status quo in theory (if he had lots of money and it would leave him in peace, he sincerely believes he wouldn't fight it), but he often seems to view it more as an outsider than Blake does. I suppose that's why I keep leaning towards stories where Avon really _is_ an outsider, whether or not he's been able to doctor the records to say otherwise. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 7 Oct 2000 14:16:13 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Neil Faulkner" , "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Fantasy & SF viewpoints Message-ID: <000801c030fb$85ff4ec0$84c428c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Neil Faulkner > As I've already said, I consider Pratchett primarily a humourist rather than > a fantasist, I consider Terry Pratchett the first postmodernist spec-fic writer. If you don't believe me, look at the way postmodernist critics go on about parody and pastiche as the essentials of pomo art... Fiona Fiona Moore http://nyder.r67.net/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #281 **************************************