From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #282 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/282 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 282 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Una McCormack" ] Re: [B7L] Owning Liberator [ "Marian de Haan" ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ] [B7L] B7 fanzine titles currently av [ Bizarro7@aol.com ] Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Deat [ mistral@centurytel.net ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ mistral@centurytel.net ] Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen [ mistral@centurytel.net ] Community (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy) [ mistral@centurytel.net ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ Natasa Tucev ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Neil Faulkner" ] Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Deat [ "Sally Manton" ] Re: [B7L] Food [ Betty Ragan ] Re: [B7L] Fantasy [ "Nyder" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <003b01c03101$63ecb740$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia wrote: > Incidentally, I regard Una's work as qualifying as science, whereas I'd > consider a lot of her colleagues to be using the word "science" to try > and give spurious validity to their personal prejudices. This is not > because she's a list-sib and therefore an ok person, it's because she > applies scientific methodology. Strangely enough, I was having this conversation yesterday over lunch (with some scientists), and I said that I didn't think what I did could meaningfully be called science. I use some quite precise statistical tools to do some quite specific measuring (and I get software to do this for me now, altho' I used to do the maths on paper), but I quite specifically make no claims to generalizability or repeatability. What I do that I find most interesting (altho' I did enjoy doing the maths on paper, weirdly) is not scientific methodology at all: it's textual interpretation, and I have the methods of an entirely different intellectual tradition to draw on when I do that (trust me, those with scientific backgrounds, managing and interpreting large amounts of text is not as easy as you might think it is). I think many working in the humanities have become very anxious about their claims to be accurately representing the world about us. This is because there is a rather successful method for doing this, from science, which has quite obvious and demonstrable effects. So, many in the humanities feel the need to use the word 'science' to justify what they're doing. I think this is a great shame, because there is a perfectly good intellectual tradition you can draw on which opens up the door to qualitative methods and the power of interpretation. But we're in a situation where the textual and interpretational are undervalued in our society compared to the numerical and that derived experimentally, so I'm not surprised that many in the humanities feel the need to justify what they do with reference to numbers (unfortunately, they often do it very badly). I'm of the opinion that many people in social studies should stop trying to pretend they're doing science, and get on with doing sociology, or history, or social psychology, or whatever. I'm not suggesting a sharp dichotomy here (I use numbers too) since I think that there are some excellent statistical techniques out there for carrying out social surveys, but they can often be wildly wrong. The 1992 opinion polls are a case in point (but did you notice just how accurate they got them in 1997?). But if you're going to use numbers, use them well, and understand what you're doing. I do think that often those from both the sciences and the humanities chronically misunderstand each other. I'm guessing that the thrill the scientifically-minded experience when they think they've hit on a better way of describing the world is somewhat similar to the way I feel when I realize I'm seeing patterns in the ways people are describing how they see the world. It's even more satisfying when you can put this against the broader canvas of human and social experience and point out the inconsistencies, or the way certain forms of knowledge are made legitimate, and others suppressed. I'm also describing the world about us, but the social world, not the physical world; but I think there's a belief that these descriptions, primarily textual, are less good than mathematical descriptions, and that when we have the right equations in place, it will be possible to describe the social world in a much more accurate way. I don't expect this in my lifetime (so no career worries there). I don't think I'm generating knowledge in a way that is similar to what scientists do when they generate knowledge, but I do hope I'm generating knowledge that is informative, has explanatory power, and draws on an intellectual and philosophical heritage that is also very old, just not very fashionable at the moment. And of course it's not. Hermeneutics doesn't get the computer to work. But it *can* tell you how the computer is gendered. Anyone buying? Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 08:38:56 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Betty and Ellynne gave us their thoughts on this all-important (and sadly neglected, canonically) subject ... a couple more thoughts from moi. Tarrant is the sort who would burn boiled eggs (before anyone cries 'Toothy-bashing' *I* am the sort who *has* burned boiled eggs, so I speak from experience :-)) Soolin ... have to say I hope Xenon has food-processing units, if not exactly the same as the ones we all put on the Liberator. (Dorian would obviously go in for very rich, decadent fare, BTW). OTOH, *should* she decide to learn, I can't see her not being extremely competent at whatever she put her hand to. I also have decided - without the slightest evidence, of course - that Avon loves, but is allergic, to chocolate. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:35:04 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "B7 Lyst" Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <006601c03102$de4bf770$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Betty: > Well, I've been reading this fascinating intellectual discussion about > the nature of science and its relationship to human spiritual needs, and > the definitions of science fiction and fantasy and what roles they fill > in society... and for some reason, all I can think about is the food > thread.:) So, below we have my speculation on the original characters' > food preferences/preparation skills. This was just brilliant, Betty, and had me laughing a lot. Good job I've not put the coffee on yet. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 09:00:02 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Una wrote: Which of course reminds us of one more of the horrors of Life Under the Federation Jackboot (as shown in Moloch) ... murder, repression, rapine, corruption and ***ersatz coffee!!!!* _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 10:19:10 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <00cc01c03108$d3529d00$0d01a8c0@codex> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally: > Una wrote: > not put the coffee on yet.> > > Which of course reminds us of one more of the horrors of Life Under the > Federation Jackboot (as shown in Moloch) ... murder, repression, rapine, > corruption and ***ersatz coffee!!!!* Good god, does their evil know no bounds?!? Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 11:36:31 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen Message-ID: <003901c0310b$416f7a40$31ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: >I also have decided - without the slightest evidence, of course - that Avon loves, but is allergic, to chocolate.< The only evidence we see for the kind of food he likes, is him eating ice cream in Gambit and an apple in Moloch. I like the idea of a love for ice cream being the only weakness he's prepared to allow himself [I'm fond of the stuff myself :-)]. OTOH that hearty bite into the apple always feels a bit out of character to me, I don't know why. And Vila seems to me to be much too lazy to make a good cook. The talent may be there, but I fear he'll always settle for the least extertion he can get away with, which will leave something to desire in his cooking. :-) Marian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 11:49:34 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Owning Liberator Message-ID: <003c01c0310d$116d8560$31ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne wrote: >And that's when the latest idea came to me. Suppose, for a moment, Avon _was_ from the System, someone important enough to be a major player but not fully integrated into the... er... system (so to speak) like the Altas. Ignoring plot problems with Redemption (to be ironed out later) this almost works. He's a major computer expert with enough information floating around his head, you'd have expected him to have downloaded stuff directly to his brain sometime in the past, just what a high ranking System exile (who'd gotten rid of the plug in his brain [or switched it off]) should be. He caught onto how Liberator worked because (with a few modifications) he'd designed it. He was extremely cold and unemotional because he was from an even less emotional environment than Federation Alphadom. He said Cally was more human than he was because she was.< Yes, one gets the impression that he really *means* that. [One of those few precious moments he's really honest about himself :-)] I love this idea, Ellynne. Any chance of a story? >Still begs the question why Avon chose this route to get back 'his' ship, but it explains Anna Grant. Good grief, she must have been practically the first woman he ever dated. No wonder he never knew what was going on and made a mess of it.< He seems rather 'innocent' in his interaction with women in S1-2. (His reaction to Cally's interest in his work in "The Web", for example.) It's only after his snog with Servalan in "Aftermath" that he appears to become aware of his sexual appeal. :-) Marian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:10:33 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <200010080710_MC2-B615-CED0@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Mistral wrote: >Perhaps that the sense of wonder in SF comes = >from the portrayal of individuals as tiny and = >insignificant against the panoramic backdrop >of time and space, whereas the wonder in fantasy > comes from the portrayal of the individual as of = >supreme importance. Hey man, is that a piece of fairy cake? Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 07:10:45 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <200010080711_MC2-B615-CED2@compuserve.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Natasa wrote: >If I'm a member of a primitive pagan tribe who = >believes that the Sun God rises up every morning >to keep me warm and protect me, it is a statement = >which tends to explain to me not only Nature, but = >also my place in it and my own emotions. Then a >scientist comes and tells me, 'Oh no, it's just a star = >with nuclear reactions on the surface.' This is of = >course true as far as material reality is concerned, = >but what happens to my inner being? = Well, if you've read C. S. Lewis, you could just tell him "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is but only what it is made of." I think Kira was managing something similar with the Prophets/wormhole aliens in DS9. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 08:02:26 EDT From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: freedom-city@blakes-7.org, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] B7 fanzine titles currently available on eBay auction: Message-ID: <10.33f6a41.2711bc52@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A bunch of slightly racy, long out-of-print rarities in this round. 2 days remaining until these end: OBLAQUE MAGNIFICENT TAILS AVON'S GADGET WORKS RESISTANCE MULTIVERSE QUICKSILVER RISING SHADOW (Newsletter #1, #2) AVON KAREN RIVER B7 CALENDAR (gorgeous!) 1 Lot of 36 beautiful, assorted B7 photos, all characters --Plus-- fanzines from other fandoms, like SW, ST, Western, KUNG FU: TLC, FOREVER KNIGHT, MAN FROM UNCLE, QUANTUM LEAP. Link to Auction: eBay View About Me for ashton7 (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ashton7/) Good luck! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 22:09:12 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: <39E00177.C861D7B5@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dana Shilling wrote: > I think the Federation has obligatory National Service, preceded by > obilgatory Patrol Scouts, so I presume everyone has been taught how to > make campfires, kill and gut giant-icky-grub-thingies, etc.--although I'm > sure certain elements forgot that VERY quickly. Doesn't quite square for me with living in domes and it being a crime to go outside - at least not for those born and raised on Earth. Blake had of course lived fairly rough while visiting Ushton on Exbar. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 05:34:50 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <39E069E9.919435C1@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > Mistral wrote: > despite having been given plenty of fodder by Sally and Julia. ;-)> > > That's awfully noble (if somewhat un-B7-ish) of you, dear (give me some > credit though, I may not have been quiet, but I did make earnest attempts to > Change the Subject.) Noble? Don't think so. I'm only pointing this out because it's the second time I've sat this one out (last time you did too, IIRC), and next time I probably won't. This is just fair warning ;-) > Trying to recall a time - any time - when one of Our Heroes ignored the > opportunity to argue ... Only when speechless with frustration. I expect Avon felt that way a lot. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 06:15:27 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen Message-ID: <39E0736E.777D0A1F@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Marian de Haan wrote: > The only evidence we see for the kind of food he likes, is him eating ice > cream in Gambit and an apple in Moloch. I like the idea of a love for ice > cream being the only weakness he's prepared to allow himself [I'm fond of > the stuff myself :-)]. OTOH that hearty bite into the apple always feels a > bit out of character to me, I don't know why. What, you never curled up with an apple and a good book? I thought all good little NTs did that in childhood on a regular basis. Though the aggressive nature of that bite was probably in response to Dayna's chiding him; before that it looked sort of absent-mindedly reflexive. It would be interesting trying to see Avon justify a weakness for ice cream - he strikes me as the type to condemn any and all vices in others, while considering his own as 'lifestyle choices'. But I'm not sure how he'd launch a defence for something so frivolous. I agree with Sally he's the type to forget food entirely if something more intriguing is at hand; but assuming there's cooking in the Federation at all, and not just pre-packaged nukable glop, I do think he'd have taught himself to cook, for two reasons: (1) he seems to be of the 'if you want something done right do it yourself' school (unless it's dangerous, messy, boring, or heavy labour, then get Vila to do it); (2) fine food is a status symbol - you can generally cook better meals than you can afford to buy for the same money. Interesting that people are listing Jenna as a hearty eater - I see her as a relatively light eater, apart from a taste for blueberry pie with lemon custard ice cream (no, I don't know why). Dayna is the hearty eater to me - she loves to eat with her fingers, especially chicken teriyaki and other things on skewers, though I don't think her culinary skills extend much beyond rinsing fruit and tossing salad, and possibly grilling things. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 07:15:36 -0700 From: mistral@centurytel.net To: B7 List Subject: Community (was Re: [B7L] Fantasy) Message-ID: <39E08188.E504443A@centurytel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > I agree with Natasa about the individual to some extent, from this > point of view -- individualism has robbed us of *community*. No. Selfishness, fear, and isolation have robbed us of community (and I agree that population density plays a large part as well). Those are not the same as individualism. Look at B7 - Blake and Avon worked together more successfully than either did apart, exactly because they had distinct viewpoints and strengths. (Real world example - Lennon & McCartney.) If you took Liberator crew, mixed them all together and sorted them out all the same, there might be no conflict, and more 'community', but they'd be far less effective, and deadly dull. Life should be a kaleidoscope; society a mixture, not a compound. When you put community ahead of individualism, you get things like Galileo's work being suppressed, the Salem witch trials, the Federation. Individualism doesn't mean that community isn't wanted - think Avon in Horizon. However 'community' may mean something entirely different to some than it does to others; just because one doesn't socialise with the people next door doesn't make one a bad neighbour. And if you *want* a closer relationship with your neighbours, generally all it requires is being willing to take the first step - most people still respond to genuine overtures of friendship. Community still exists - it's just no longer limited by geographic location. The lyst is a community - of people with overlapping interests, rather than people who are forced together because they live in proximity. There are advantages and disadvantages both ways; I'm sure everyone can work out what those are for themselves, so I'll stop now. Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:23:30 +0200 From: Natasa Tucev To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-Id: <200010081623.SAA27791@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Penny wrote: >So on the negative side you no longer feel an emotional bond with Mr. >Plasma Ball In The Sky, but on the positive side you no longer feel the >need to sacrifice Edward Woodward after every bad harvest (hmm, perhaps >that's a negative as well). > No, of course not - I will become civilized and I will also become interested in the afore mentioned nuclear reactions, and design a bomb with which to sacrifice a few hundred thousand people to who-knows-what. Even when the harvest is decent. Natasa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 18:23:19 +0200 From: Natasa Tucev To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-Id: <200010081623.SAA27775@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Julia wrote: >One of the problems I have with hard core Christian fundamentalists (no, >I do *not* mean anyone on this list) is their insistence that this >little world is all there is, that God created the world in seven days >some four thousand years ago. I can't understand how people would rather >have that than the grandeur and glory of the universe I know as an >amateur astronomer. A Creator responsible for *that* is a damn sight >more impressive than a patriarchal figure in a long white shirt. > Actually, I agree with you about this (in spite of the bollocks). The prejudices have to be refuted, but the problem is that they have been created in the first place to satisfy a great emotional and psychological need which still exists. Let me quote Ted Hughes, whose English is more precise than mine and who will therefore, hopefully, sound less offensive to you: "As the religion was stripped away, the defrocked inner world became a waif, an outcast, a tramp. And denied its own great health - acceptance into life - it fell into a huge sickness... The small piloting consciousness of the bright-eyed objective intelligence had steered its body and soul into hell. Religious negotiations had formerly embraced and humanized the archaic energies of instinct and feeling. They had conversed in simple but profound terms with the forces struggling inside people, and had civilized them or attempted to. Without religion, those powers have become dehumanized. The whole inner world has become elemental, chaotic, continually more primitive and beyond our control... But of course, in so far as we are disconnected anyway from that world, and lack the equipment to pick up its signals, we are not aware of it. All we register is the vast absence, the emptiness, the sterility, the meaninglessness, the loneliness. If we do manage to catch a glimpse of our inner selves, we recognize it with horror..." What I think I'm trying to say, is that intellectual truths are fine, but we can't live by intellectual truths alone. And the problem is not that the emotional truths may be at odds with the intellectual ones - the problem is that they are totally neglected. And this may leave us somewhat crippled as human beings. This debate, actually, started after it was observed that SF is such a great genre because it approximates the objectivity of science. I disagreed, trying to point out that we have plenty of scientific objectivity in this world and that we badly need literature for something else. Including SF, which I love for entirely different reasons. (Hands up who likes B7 because it approximates the objectivity of science?) Natasa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 12:35:03 -0400 From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: <006401c03148$d22acac0$57f35a0c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Dana Shilling > I think the Federation has obligatory National Service, preceded by > obilgatory Patrol Scouts, so I presume everyone has been taught how to > make campfires, kill and gut giant-icky-grub-thingies, etc.--although I'm > sure certain elements forgot that VERY quickly. Well, per "The Way Back" it's not uncommon for people never to have left the domes, and even less so to have only been out once or twice. --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:32:48 +0200 From: "Marian de Haan" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon & the kitchen Message-ID: <001401c0314d$cd488a60$c0ed72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In respons to my: >>OTOH that hearty bite into the apple always feels a bit out of character to me, I don't know why.<< Mistral wrote: >What, you never curled up with an apple and a good book?< Actually, no :-) >I thought >all good little NTs did that in childhood on a regular basis.< Maybe I'd better not ask what a NT is? >Though the aggressive nature of that bite was probably in response to Dayna's chiding him;< This scene always lands me with an irreverent vision of a certain happening in Paradise with the roles reversed: Eve advocating caution and Adam biting in the apple just to spite her :-) > before that it looked sort of absent-mindedly reflexive.< I find it touching how much faith this man who trusts no-one can have in technology. He seems absolutely convinced that no harm will become him. Apparently fairy tales are out of fashion in the Federation - no "Snow white" to teach him the danger of biting into strange apples :-) >I agree with Sally he's the type to forget food entirely if something more intriguing is at hand; but assuming there's cooking in the Federation at all, and not just pre-packaged nukable glop, I do think he'd have taught himself to cook, for two reasons: (1) he seems to be of the 'if you want something done right do it yourself' school (unless it's dangerous, messy, boring, or heavy labour, then get Vila to do it); (2) fine food is a status symbol - you can generally cook better meals than you can afford to buy for the same money.< I agree, plus (3) his self-sufficiency. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 19:56:08 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <000d01c03159$9d94d100$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Julia Jones > In message <200010070917.LAA25178@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu>, Natasa Tucev > writes > > What a load of bollocks. Echoed, I'm afraid. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 14:20:51 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: B7 Lyst Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <39E0D723.39C16469@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Which of course reminds us of one more of the horrors of Life Under the > Federation Jackboot (as shown in Moloch) ... murder, repression, rapine, > corruption and ***ersatz coffee!!!!* You know, I think you've just *finally* settled in my mind the moral question of whether Blake was right to resort to violent rebellion... :) -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 20:25:23 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After Dana wrote: Youth group Jamborees on the Astroturf (with the icky-grub-thingies coming ready canned for cooking over an artificial campfire) ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: 8 Oct 00 14:24:49 PDT From: Jacqui Speel To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [Re: [B7L] Fantasy] Message-ID: <20001008212449.25333.qmail@ww181.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I read 'somewhere' that in Hebrew the word for 'day' can also mean 'perio= d of time.' (or Hebrew of that period) Natasa Tucev wrote: Julia wrote: >One of the problems I have with hard core Christian fundamentalists (no,= >I do *not* mean anyone on this list) is their insistence that this >little world is all there is, that God created the world in seven days >some four thousand years ago. I can't understand how people would rather= >have that than the grandeur and glory of the universe I know as an >amateur astronomer. A Creator responsible for *that* is a damn sight >more impressive than a patriarchal figure in a long white shirt. > ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:06:05 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon (was: Rumours of Death question) Message-ID: <00c901c0318f$b1f0b340$fd614e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally said: > 'Tis possible (compulsory youth organsations ARE very popular in > totalitarian regimes) I always think of Patrol Scouts = Hitler Youth > but it's just so hard to imagine My Darlings in this > ... Vila would have quickly managed to develop some sort of medical > exemption ("I can't go, Mum - I've got this bone in my leg ...") He might have had fun--he's a sociable type, and the other kids' lockers would have offered fascinating opportunities , Avon would > simple have considered himself above the whole thing, In a not-terribly-serious story, (Babes in Arms, on Liberated) I had Blake shudder at the thought of a half-size Avon, grenades suspended from his Sam Browne belt, garotting a rival patrol leader with his neckerchief and I hate to > imagine the first time one of the Troop leaders tried to give young Roj an > order he didn't care for (or possibly any order at all). How fast could he > get drummed out of a compulsory service, do you think? I don't think Blake was quite as good a Patrol Scout as Tarrant, but he might have been a youthful conformist before becoming radicalized as an adult. > > On the guest star side, one can definitely see Ro, Tynus and Del Grant, but > oh my poor Jarriere ... Jarriere might have been very popular as a class clown/mascot type. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:21:38 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <00ca01c0318f$b4117060$fd614e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton said: > Penny Dreadful wrote: > power but all it could do was keep his shoes *incredibly clean*.> > > Clearly made of the same stuff as Servalan's 'Orac' outfit, and it equally > clearly only comes in one colour ... Well, Alec Guinness played The Man in the White Suit (an indestructable fabric that couldn't get dirty). -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 21:23:27 -0400 From: "Dana Shilling" To: "B7 Lyst" Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <00cb01c0318f$b59b1da0$fd614e0c@dshilling> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Betty said: > Well, I've been reading this fascinating intellectual discussion about > the nature of science and its relationship to human spiritual needs, and > the definitions of science fiction and fantasy and what roles they fill > in society... and for some reason, all I can think about is the food > thread.:) I think one of the real failures of canon is that it doesn't tell us much at all about food. I'm working on a story now in which Gan has installed a hydroponic farm on the Liberator, which sounds like something that should have been a plot point. > Blake: Favorite meal is steak and potatoes with lots of brown bread and > dark beer, but has a cast-iron stomach and will eat absolutely > *anything*. Am now writing an Othello pastiche with Evil Gan as Iago (I don't think Gan is really as nice as all that, we just want there to be ONE nice character), and when Avon is downplanet chomping through the eight-course tasting menu, Gan charms Blake by saving a portion of shepherd's pie (probably cooked by Gan) for him. > > Vila: Creates huge Dagwood sandwiches out of the most *interesting* > variety of ingredients. I think Vila would probably be a good plain cook, simply out of having a history of not having enough money to pay for restaurant meals AND go to the pub, and being a fairly practical person--I think he would soon have learned how to self-cater economically. > Cally: Creates nutritionally-balanced meals featuring leafy green > vegetables and whole grains. Lectures the others constantly on how they > need to eat better, and occasionally slips vitamin supplements into > their soma when they're not looking. Quite possibly a vegetarian. And thus leading proponent of installing the hydroponic farm. > > Jenna: Likes juicy steaks, rich desserts, fresh, crisp salads, and > quality liquors, but is also quite capable of existing on survival > rations for weeks with little complaint. I don't think Jenna (or Servalan, for that matter) really even like food very much. I REALLY hate people like that. Re Ellynne G's post on this thread: yet another instance in which she applies much more intelligence, creativity, and insight than the actual scripts themselves showed. -(Y) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 17:42:02 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Betty Ragan Cc: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's 7 food Message-ID: <39E1145A.C2D@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, one thing I have in common with Gan is, if I *am* going to cook for people, I check on them with the ingredients. I've far too often had to make do because the people I know forget my needs to take the chance on making my dishes inedible for friends or family. One friend had to cut out caffiene recently because of high blood pressure. I offered him iced tea; he said no thanks. Then I explained I'd made ablend of herbal and decaffe-- his face lit up to realize I'd kept his limits in mind and he quickly accepted. Hmmm... if one of the crew did have a food allergy or something, I wonder which of the others would remember it and cook around it? Blake would mean to, but it might slip his mind. Avon, would, I think make some snarky remarks to the person the first time it came up-- then discreetly never use that ingrediant again-- and make some pathetic excuse about not being able to find it or soemthing if they thanked him. (having added this train, I'll send it on to the lyst). Vila would, of course, oblige, as would Cally. Jenna would tell the person to cook for themself, then. Gan would have asked beforehand, as you've said. Dayna or Tarrant might add the food to unexpected dishes if they were in a nasty mood, depending on who had the problem with it. Soolin would cook what she wanted to eat. If she knew someone couldn't eat it, she wouldn't give them any. If that meant they had to make their own meal, she wouldn't fret about it. Slave would offer numerous recipies for meals without the offensive ingredient. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2000 22:03:51 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: B7 Lyst Subject: Re: [B7L] Food Message-ID: <39E143A7.AACBA7D@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dana Shilling wrote: > I don't think Jenna (or Servalan, for that matter) really even like > food very much. I REALLY hate people like that. Really? I see them both as having the kind of self-indulgent streak that would lead to an appreciation of good food. Except that, in Jenna's case, that'd just mean that she'd take advantage of an opportunity for a good meal when one came her way, and in Servlan's case, it'd mean that she'd better see exactly what she wants on her table exactly when she wants it, or *somebody's* going to be sent off to the slave pits... -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 8 Oct 2000 09:10:41 +0100 From: "Nyder" To: "Lysator" , "Penny Dreadful" Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-ID: <000901c031b7$4e75e7e0$35c828c3@stx.ox.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: Penny Dreadful To: Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2000 12:19 AM Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy > At 11:17 AM 10/7/00 +0200, Natasa Tucev wrote: > > >If I'm a member of a > >primitive pagan tribe who believes that the Sun God rises up every morning > >to keep me warm and protect me, it is a statement which tends to explain to > >me not only Nature, but also my place in it and my own emotions. Then a > >scientist comes and tells me, 'Oh no, it's just a star with nuclear > >reactions on the surface.' This is of course true as far as material reality > >is concerned, but what happens to my inner being? (Of course I can always > >boil the scientist with some potatoes and go on worshiping my Sun God Ahem-- Primitive pagan tribes are actually a lot more sensible than many so-called civilised societies. As witness the story told by Laura Marshall, an anthropologists who studied Bushmen (sic) in Southern Africa. After watching them perform an elaborate rain-bringing ritual, she, wanting to understand and enter into their worldview, inquired as to when this would bring the rain. The entire tribe burst out laughing, and told her that if she thought a rain-bringing ritual would actually magically bring rain, she was a good deal more credulous than they thought. Well-written though it may be, I do wish the publishers would stop reprinting "The Golden Bough." It's 100 years out of date, and yet continues to keep informing 9/10ths of all popular SF about "primitives." And I'm afraid I tend to agree with Julia on science. Anthropology's a science, after all, and you don't get much more metaphysical than that. Fiona Fiona Moore http://nyder.r67.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 10:28:23 +0100 From: "Iain J. Coleman" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Fantasy Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline >>> Julia Jones 10/07/00 09:36PM >>> > >What a load of bollocks. Thanks, Julia: you put it a lot more politely than I would have. I'm curious: how many of the people banging on about what science is have = actually done any honest-to-God science? Iain -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #282 **************************************