From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #63 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/63 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 63 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering [B7L] complexity of character Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering Re: [B7L] complexity of character Re: [B7L] complexity of character Re: [B7L] Episode Reviews Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering Re: [B7L] Crossword clues [B7L] B7 dangerous to tired minds..... [B7L] Introduction [B7L] Introduction [B7L] "Beautiful' suffering Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Cygnus Alpha" [B7L] First Impressions: "Cygnus Alpha" [B7L] Baby Boom and Meyers-Briggs Re: [B7L] Baby Boom and Meyers-Briggs [B7L] Re: Re: Episode Reviews [B7L] There must be a glitch... Re: [B7L] complexity of character Re: [B7L] complexity of character Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Episode Reviews Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Episode Reviews Re: [B7L] Episode Reviews [B7L] Generations [B7L] innies vs. outies Re: [B7L] complexity of character ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:26:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: b7 Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 6 Mar 2000, Neil Faulkner wrote: > > Of course, Una could send Iain along in her place, in which case my last > memory would be of a ginormous wet scaley thing swinging down from out of > the clouds. Assuming I wear my kilt, of course. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:20:15 -0000 From: Alison Page To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: [B7L] complexity of character Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C412@BRAMLEY> Content-Type: text/plain I was reading (alt fan B7? can't remember) somebody suggesting that as Star Trek evolved the characters became more complex, and the ideas less. Thus in TOS you get fairly simple clearly defined characters (the brain, the heart, the will, the body, the voice) in high-concept SF plots. As the franchise developed the characters gained more complexity, but alas many episodes became more like a soap opera, concerned primarily with the interaction between characters, with the SF content becoming more incidental. OK. It's a contentious point, and off topic. But it made me think about the whole idea of complexity. There is almost a knee-jerk feeling (in me) that greater character complexity must be good. But is it? And is that what we find in Blakes 7 anyway? I'm not sure that the ideal character for a 50-minute TV show should be extremely complex. After all a real complex human character would present such a different face each day that it would be hard to get a good feel for their personality in a 50-minute burst. Perhaps it is better for them to be colourful, well defined, clear. Like a stylish cartoon rather than a photo. Compared to ST-TOS B7 characters are two-dimensional (ie one more dimension) Avon clever/selfish/ruthless (one dimension) but vulnerable and repeatedly self-sacrificing (second dimension) Blake noble/charismatic but violent and bonkers Vila childish/cowardly but capable and clever Cally warrior / pacifist Jenna bimbo / ruthless professional etc. But I wouldn't say this gives them total complexity. And I think I prefer it that way. It leaves a space for the fans to fill up. Are all the fannish series are rather cartoon-y in their definitions of character? How much Hamlet fanfic is there out there anyway? Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 09:32:39 EST From: KKrause658@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No scales. Trust me, eels are the thing you want for a real fish battle. Good weight and a nice swing. Will there be pictures of this battle? Karen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 10:11:34 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] complexity of character Message-ID: <20000308.101142.-212931.0.Rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 8 Mar 2000 12:20:15 -0000 Alison Page writes: > I was reading (alt fan B7? can't remember) somebody suggesting that > as Star > Trek evolved the characters became more complex, and the ideas less. There is almost a knee-jerk feeling (in > me) that > greater character complexity must be good. But is it? And is that > what we > find in Blakes 7 anyway? > Compared to ST-TOS B7 characters are two-dimensional (ie one more > dimension) > > Avon clever/selfish/ruthless (one dimension) but vulnerable and > repeatedly > self-sacrificing (second dimension) > Blake noble/charismatic but violent and bonkers > Vila childish/cowardly but capable and clever > Cally warrior / pacifist > Jenna bimbo / ruthless professional > > etc. > > But I wouldn't say this gives them total complexity. And I think I > prefer it > that way. It leaves a space for the fans to fill up. Are all the > fannish > series are rather cartoon-y in their definitions of character? How > much > Hamlet fanfic is there out there anyway? > There may not be that much Hamlet fanfic (Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead, and Fortinbras [didn't see that one, just heard about it]) come to mind, but that's a play that's inspired more debate than the whole B7 lyst (Hamlet - insane or sane? good guy or bad guy? in love with Ophelia or not? What's his motive: justice, revenge (for his dad, for the loss of the throne, for public humiliation, for dislike of his uncle, or other?), lust, Oedipus complex. love of homeland, or other? Is he a slow moving, deep thinker or a young hothead? etc. I've always thought the characters were the backbone of B7. That's what usually pulls me into to any show I like (that, or some really good angst or conflict, which B7 also has). So, is this depth like Hamlet, and we spend all this time debating what so and so would do in such and such a situation just like eternal Hamlet debates? Or something deep but not that deep? Maybe a combination. Part of the debate, after all, is _why_ a character acted a certain way and speculating as to motives and background. I've always said Avon cared about the others - he'd just sooner surrender to Servalan and have her kill him with a blunt weapon than _admit_ it to anyone (himself included). But how did he get that way? A single, traumatic incident? A string of traumas? Or was it simply the result of being a certain kind of person trying to adapt to the ruthless environment and ethics of the Federation? Or all three? Or, heck, maybe he's been like this since day one. So, taken someways, there's an incredible implication of depth. Taken other ways, there isn't. I also have to admit a writing weakness of mine. I'm the kind of person who watches Mystery Science Theater and finds myself making plot notes. Sure, these are some of the worst films ever made - but part of me starts thinking something was a good idea, they should have done something with it; or this is an interesting situation, where could it have gone? or, if there was a nine foot caveman/pseudo-giant wandering along the roadside, what would be a logical explanation for his being there and being the last of his kind? Giant grasshoppers, OTOH, should meet giant Raid cans five minutes after they're discovered, and that should be that. One of the things about Shakespeare is the way I can never mess with his plots. I _hate_ the ending of Romeo and Juliet (I think that's what Shakespeare intended), but I can't mess with it. Easy as it is to see all the points where the star crossed lovers could get off the merry-go-round taking them to their deaths, there's no story left after this happens (there's also no resolution to the family feud, but that's their problem). Then again, Shakespeare's plays weren't ongoing series with the occassional loose end that left you, in a certain episode, yelling, "What!?" so the obvious suggestion that it may be B7's weaknesses that keep drawing me in may not be valid. But it does leave corners to be explored - that _need_ to be explored - and loose ends that invite explanation. And _no_ cheap, giant crickets. Just spiders. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 18:05:13 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L] complexity of character Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 8 Mar 2000, Alison Page wrote: > OK. It's a contentious point, and off topic. But it made me think about the > whole idea of complexity. There is almost a knee-jerk feeling (in me) that > greater character complexity must be good. But is it? And is that what we > find in Blakes 7 anyway? > > I'm not sure that the ideal character for a 50-minute TV show should be > extremely complex. After all a real complex human character would present > such a different face each day that it would be hard to get a good feel for > their personality in a 50-minute burst. Perhaps it is better for them to be > colourful, well defined, clear. Like a stylish cartoon rather than a photo. I used to play a lot of roleplaying games, and I've often likened the feel of B7 to that of an episodic RPG campaign. Now, there are two approaches to roleplaying character design. These are known as design-at-start and design-in-play. The former approach is to map out all the details of the character's personality, history, friends, attitudes, goal, ambitions before you start playing the game: starting the game with a complex, rounded character all set up and ready to go. The alternative involves starting with just the barest sketch of a character - maybe just a couple of key words to start defining it - and then let the character develop its full depth and richness in the course of a long-running game. I've always favoured design-in-play. It allows improvisation and surprise: it is also far less work. The key to doing it this way is to have exactly two, contradictory, character points. As the tension betwen these two works itself out in the course of events, gradually a real character will establish itself. There are good dramatic reasons for doing this. In drama, all we know about a character is what we see and what we are told. The depth and complexity of the character comes from how it acts and reacts in particular dramatic situations. The design-in-play approach mirrors the unfolding of drama. As for Blake's 7... > > Compared to ST-TOS B7 characters are two-dimensional (ie one more dimension) > > Avon clever/selfish/ruthless (one dimension) but vulnerable and repeatedly > self-sacrificing (second dimension) > Blake noble/charismatic but violent and bonkers > Vila childish/cowardly but capable and clever > Cally warrior / pacifist > Jenna bimbo / ruthless professional > ... all of which obey my design-in-play rule: two contradictory character notes. > etc. > > But I wouldn't say this gives them total complexity. And I think I prefer it > that way. It leaves a space for the fans to fill up. Are all the fannish > series are rather cartoon-y in their definitions of character? How much > Hamlet fanfic is there out there anyway? It's not just, or even primarily, space for _fans_ to fill up. It's space for writers, directors and actors to fill up. Imagine being given a book full of history, attitudes and desires for each of the characters, then being asked to write a script about them. You'd be so circumscribed that the story would be impossible to write. This is the difference between serial fiction (like B7) and self-contained drama (like Hamlet). The full force of Hamlet's personality - his history, his ambitions, his views of the world - can all explode out in the course of the play, and the play ends once the bolt is shot. If his character doesn't seem consistent throughout the play, the writer can fix that before it goes into rehearsal. Serial fiction doesn't work like that. We must always be able to be surprised by the characters, must always be able to find new facets to their character. You don't do this by meticulously detailing them before the first script is written: you do it by starting with a spark, and adding fuel slowly over the course of many stories. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:44:02 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Episode Reviews Message-ID: <006b01bf8933$636712a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Bailey wrote: > I have recently been working on my new site at: http://www.blakes-7.homepage.com > but due to lack of time I still have several missing pages. So I noticed when I had a look at it:) > > I have been trying to work up a page for episode reviews I wanted some > professional opinions (yours), so I was hoping if some of you could help me by > adding one. I fail to see the point in soliciting other people's opinions. There certainly are sites that carry episode reviews (Paul James' and Sue Clerc's, to name two excellent examples), but the value of their reviews lies in the uniquely individual perspective of the author. I also think there is no need for yet another site giving us a synopsis of the storyline, cast credits, character bios, since this would merely reiterate information that is already more than adequately available on other websites. I'm not saying that we do not need more B7 websites, because there is always scope for more, but there are already enough that go through the introductory guff for newbies and virgins who have blundered in by mistake. A new site, IMO, should be for the fans, who already know what B7 is, and want to read someone else's interpretation of the series. Basically, a good B7 website should offer something that the other sites don't, whether it's stacks of merchandise (Judith Proctor), fanfic (Aquitar Files), fanfic critiques (Sue Clerc), stacks of pretty piccies (Paul James and Lisa Williams), con photos (Steve Rogerson), media studies projects (Una McCormack), poetry (Ebony) and so on (apologies to anyone I've omitted). These sites - and others - *complement* each other, while yours seems set to merely repeat the overly repeated. And to do something new and different you need a thorough knowledge of the series and of its fandom. Asking people for reviews that you (seemingly) admit to being unable to write yourself suggests that you have neither. (And I am intrigued by the promise of a 'dictionary' on your webpage. What exactly is this intended to be? If it's an A-Z of everything in the series, is this because you are unaware of a thing called the Sevencyclopaedia, or do you think you can go one better?) I don't want to quash your enthusiasm for B7 or for fandom (and I don't think anyone can deny you have the enthusiasm!), but I think your energies are being needlessly diverted into projects that - in their present form - lack the uniquely personal focus and direction that would make them a positive contribution to B7 fandom on the Net. Neil "I am not a man, I am a free number." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 08:52:51 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering Message-ID: <006d01bf8933$68bcbc00$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > > > Well, it certainly couldn't have anything to do with the rather > > > wonderful Kerr Avon Tribute page. > > > > I'm glad you think so. I'd hate to think anyone reading it might suspect I > > had a downer on *Avon himself*. > > Ah, yes. Misanthropes are only obligated to dislike real people. > I can just see Avon sitting alone, watching Monty Python and > Eastenders and feeling a real sense of connectedness. Misanthropy? Tut-tut. It is not the only foundation for satire, you know. > > Do you > > have no sense of pity for innocent fish newly hatched with but 24 hours of > > life to their name? > > Trust you to assume the worst of me. Now, whose fault could that be, I wonder... > Villain! I must protest! Daffodils are people, too. No, no - I refuse to waste my finger muscles typing a riposte to that. > "In a very real sense, we all feed on death."--Mr. Spock, vegetarian Hurry up then, I'm starving:) Neil "I am not a man, I am a free number." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:17:27 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Crossword clues Message-ID: <006e01bf8933$69af5960$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay okay, since none of you seem even remotely interested in deciphering my cryyptic crossword clues, and because I don't want to die prematurely at Andrew's hands (or indeed anyone else's), the answers are as follows: > "Second-rate bodies of water (there were several in 'Weapon') (6)" B - lakes. I'd have thought this one would fall into the 'far too easy' category, myself. > "In this idyll a character returns (5)" Cally - her name runs backwards (returns) in "idYLL A Character" > "Aliens - and a capital 'Sand' mixture! (11)" This one's sneakier. The aliens are AND, ROME (a capital) and DANS ('Sand' mixture, ie; anagram of sand) - Andromedans. > "More than one of him and you might have a shaky flight (1,1)" Another elliptical one, but if you can see that [1,1] is somebody's initials, and take the 'him' and 'flight' to mean a male pilot, it can only be DT (Del Tarrant). More than one of him would be DTs, hence the shaky flight. > "I leave Israel, get a head start, and turn into a slave (6)" Utterly straightforward. Remove the I from 'Israel' to get 'srael'. Add H (head start, as in first letter of 'head') to get 'sraelh'. And turn that into Rashel, who was a slave. > "One drink proved fatal for this rebel (4)" You can take this one perfectly literally, and all you need to remember is the name of the Helot who was offered a drink with a tracing device in it. This one drink proved fatal for him. But his name was Igin, or '1 gin', and I wouldn't be surprised if that was where Robert Holmes got his name from in the first place. > "Did Sula use him as an empty pencil? (3)" Andrew's already got this one. It was indeed Hob (HB with 0 inside). Don't *any* of you ever get the Daily Telegraph? How about "Mechanical ruler of Horizon? (5)" Neil "I am not a man, I am a free number." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 14:11:56 EST From: KKrause658@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] B7 dangerous to tired minds..... Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit last week, I was still really tired from our Association's winter meeting, I saw the commercial for the new car, the Avalon. Of course this got me in a Blake's 7 mood so I was finding more B7 references... There are two people on our mailing lists that last names are Keating! There is also a Jenna! (A name I wouldn't find too common..) The serial comic strip Apartment 3G has a character in it named Kali (ok, wrong spelling, but close enough: )) Getting the metro from Union Station, I saw a crane that said it was rented from Horizon. I should have known I was in trouble when I thought (facetiously even), "Gee, they're really branching out!" The killer came when I was sitting near two women discussing Avon (the cosmetic company). One woman was discussing how much she loved Avon's containers. Of course, I immediately thought of the many discussions of Avon's leather pants. Slight giggles came. Luckily I buried my head in the book I was reading. I was doing fine until one woman claimed she had some Avon samples she would share...Of course this really got me going so I had to leave the train and get back on the next one... I tell you Blake's 7 is dangerous with a zonked mind.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2000 22:26:33 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Introduction Message-ID: <38C34F99.B1C8568D@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally wrote: > whereas some of – all right one of me, possibly two with Julia? – >think that the most interesting thing in the entire meandering 3rd season >was a certain pair of leather trousers…oh, we're a rich and varied bunch of >viewers, all right. >But Pat, did you mean this that way? Or did you mean it's all downhill *for >Our heroes* - into tragedy (which for some reason was how I first read it?) Yes indeed. Tiger M missed the last line: Yes, all downhill into danger, derring do, despair and dire drama! And I agree that 3rd season (with a few exceptions) is a meandering mess. But it leads us to the spectacularly sadistic 4th season, so that makes it all worthwhile. TigerM wrote: >I should point out that this is merely the opinion of some fans, not all of us. Public Lyst Disclaimer: When I state an opinion, it is my opinion, not the opinion of some fans or all fans. PatP -- "Never give up. Never surrender." -- Galaxy Quest __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 08:50:38 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Introduction Message-ID: <38C684DE.FFACB6DE@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trish wrote: re: >>In "Weapon" Avon was painfully aware that his Tight Trousers could not hold >> a candle to those of the newly introduced True Travis, so he was doing his >> best to keep a low profile. >Oh Penny, >don't make me go there .... you really don't want me to descend to that level >... okay, here goes. >Was that a candle or a tea light that you meant ? I was rather picturing a large flashlight (Brits call it a torch) Yanks (on being in love) say, "He's carrying a torch for her" hmmmmmm Pondering weighty (ahem) ideas, Pat P __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 09:26:10 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] "Beautiful' suffering Message-ID: <38C68D32.607F04D5@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una wrote: >Can't I just use tins of tuna and a cannon? Joanne wrote: >That depends on the amount of suffering, beautiful or otherwise, you >consider desirable... ...and 'odder' marine animals (otter) Lucky I have no cuppa today, for this entire hilarious fishy thread would have thrashed my keyboard. Who sez INTJs are a bunch of humorless dweebs? Boffer wars we'd love to see: Travis and Blake (Duel) wailing on one another with deadly swordfish Servalan and Cally daintily slapping it out with exotic tropical pretties Zeeona and Soolin lustily whapping at one another with girly golden koi Avon and Tarrant strutting after stuffing long, sleek trout into their tight trousers ... [remainder of message censored by the Internet Interpol] Pat P __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2000 20:55:14 -0000 From: "Ariana" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] First Impressions: "Cygnus Alpha" Message-ID: <007701bf8940$a53b4360$0aed07c3@ariana> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, this has turned into a popular thread! Some comments in no particular order: From: Una McCormack > Oh yes, they are! I love that bit. I think it's very human. ('I'd better put > some sticky things on these controls or I'll *never* get them working > again...'). That's true. If I were Avon, I'd probably want to stick little stickers all over the alien ship as well. Just as long as it doesn't reach the proportions of Space:1999, in which absolutely *everything* was labelled (including the Command Center, which was labelled on the *inside* :). From: David A McIntee > Unless their name is Tom or Harry, and Tuvok is in the room, you mean? Well, they might make fun of Tuvok (I think modern Trek has more or less decided that Vulcans are fair game for jokes), but I don't get the same impression of *wit*. I think there was more of that in DS9 (especially when Dukat, Garak or Quark were around). OTOH, I'm not a great Voyager fan, though IMHO (not shared by everyone, I know), it picked up considerably after Seven joined; at last someone with the guts to question all that Federation claptrap. So says Ariana (living in brackets!). From: Pat Patera > Ariena, you are nearly as witty as the B7 writers :-) I do so enjoy sharpening my wits on things. > wow. cool observation. I never heard this theory before. Yes, perfect > wish fullfillment for Blake: weapons, Avon: riches, Jenna: beauty. But > but but why did Vila and Cally never find their wish fullfillment? Simple: Zen saw what Avon was planning to do with his 'gift' and decided never to give the humans anything ever again. ;) Not that I seriously believe this was the intention. From: Kathryn Andersen > Money. Never build more sets than you need. And anyway, I liked the > line which Avon said to Jenna when she came back wearing her new > clothes: > "I'm glad to see you haven't been wasting your time on frivolities." Something I forgot to add to my list of quotes. :) Ariana http://www.alpha.ndirect.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 12:01:06 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] First Impressions: "Cygnus Alpha" Message-ID: <38C6B182.27F59BA8@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David wrote: re: >> equivalent of the rocky, sparsely vegetated landscape the Star Trek >> characters always seem to be trotting around (gee, do you think that >>might be the back-lot at Paramount Studios? ;). >Actually that's usually out at Vasquez. Sometimes they go to Victorville For those who have not lived in So. California: Vasquez rocks is located about 25 miles NE of Los Angeles. It is an area of flat rock slabs (sandstone?) uplifted to a 15 - 45 degree angle. Only a few square miles, it is a fun place to hike due to its wierd appearance. You can see it from Interstate 5. Many U.S. shows (Space and Westerns) are shot at this locale. Pat P P.S. Andrew wrote: >Neil's too clever - let's kill him now. I agree! Before he alters the list logs to make himself look the smartest INTJ of the lot. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 09:00:35 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Baby Boom and Meyers-Briggs Message-ID: <38C68733.6C245272@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susie wrote: >I'm fascinated by the discussions and curious about the MBTI analysis. shhhhhh! There is a moratorium on M*****-B***** on this lyst. > Is the group really made up of INTJs and how do you know that? oh, you really really don't want to go there. >I'm a borderline INTJ/INTP and am not at all surprised that I therefore find >you all so intelligent and witty. strut, preen, superior stare down the nose, snarl > I've always understood that there is a gap generation >(no, not the ubiquitous outfitter) between the Boomers and Gen X. U.S. Demographers call it the baby bust. But you, born in 63 are technically a 'boomer' (46 - 64) and not a 'buster' Precise Pat P P.S. >Further grist for the lyst: do you think Avon would have been an Ayn Rand fan? oh yes. Avon says: "They all had the same chance as me" (to survive). This is precisely the Ayn Rand outlook. Workers profit from their labor / intelligence / gifts. The lazy, stupid, ungifted are on their own. The theory works fine if it were true that 'all men are created equal' We know they are not. In the animal kingdom, the strong survive. In the socialist state, the strong are forced by the strongest (the government military) to give the fruits of their labors to the weak (of mind, body or will). If Ayn Rand had lived to see the welfare state / democracy in the U.S. today, she would be rolling in her grave. -- "Never give up. Never surrender." -- Galaxy Quest __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 21:59:42 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Baby Boom and Meyers-Briggs Message-ID: <009201bf894a$1b3c8700$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat says >oh yes. Avon says: "They all had the same chance as me" (to survive). >This is precisely the Ayn Rand outlook. Workers profit from their labor >/ intelligence / gifts. The lazy, stupid, ungifted are on their own. On the contrary I would say the 'Ayn Rand' outlook is exclusively espoused by pampered pussycats who have never known a day's struggle in their lives. Only someone who is hugely protected from the harsh realities of life would think they could survive on their own gifts, without relying on the forbearance of the rest of humanity. 'In the war of all against all the life of man is poor nasty, brutish and short'. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:16:23 -0500 From: Michael Bailey To: "Blake's 7 Mailing List" Subject: [B7L] Re: Re: Episode Reviews Message-ID: <38C6D137.2D709E3B@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I'll ask you the same question you were asked about your mailing >list (which I haven't, by the way, yet seen you answer): >What's special about your new website, as opposed to all the >other B7 websites out there, that would make me, or anyone else >but you, *want* to write stuff especially for it? I wasn't anticipating that anyone would feel that I am trying to better another web site. However, it completely blows my mind that someone such as yourself would be as rude and snide to insult something that was intended merely to stimulate further exchange of opinions concerning Blake's 7. I apologize if in any way I have personally insulted you. However, when you feel a need to criticize a newcomer in a way like this, the least dignity you might show would be to contact via a NON-PUBLIC correspondence. __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 09:27:07 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] There must be a glitch... Message-ID: <20000308222707.55195.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello? I can't believe everyone has been completely silent overnight. There must be a glitch, but at which end? Regards Joanne (puzzled) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:15:59 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] complexity of character Message-ID: <00c101bf8954$dfb06200$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Iain >I've always favoured design-in-play. It allows improvisation and surprise: >it is also far less work. The key to doing it this way is to have exactly >two, contradictory, character points. As the tension betwen these two >works itself out in the course of events, gradually a real character will >establish itself. Which makes me wonder to what extent the duality of the B7 characters was set up in advance in this way. Or perhaps the actors and writers just immediately gravitated in that direction because they instinctively knew that it was interesting. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 23:18:01 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] complexity of character Message-ID: <00c201bf8954$e0c49120$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry for posting a lot Ellyne said - >There may not be that much Hamlet fanfic (Rosencrantz and Guildenstern >are Dead, and Fortinbras [didn't see that one, just heard about it]) come >to mind, Bloody good examples. FWIW Una and I had some kind of discussion a while back about R&G being rather reminiscent of Avon and Vila, but I can't remember which was which now. > >I've always thought the characters were the backbone of B7. me too. So that's the paradox. We love the characters, and yet they are manifestly not Hamlet. So what is going on. >I also have to admit a writing weakness of mine. I'm the kind of person >who watches Mystery Science Theater and finds myself making plot notes. >Sure, these are some of the worst films ever made - but part of me starts >thinking something was a good idea, they should have done something with >it; or this is an interesting situation, where could it have gone? I think this is the same as (Harriet I hope you don't mind me taking your name in vain) what Harriet calls the 'Platonic version' of Blakes 7. I fill in the gaps with that idea of elder races and hidden plots. I like Ariana's 'filling in the gaps' with Liberator being somewhat like Solaris, responding to the visitors. It's the incompleteness which allows this. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 19:04:27 EST From: Prmolloy@aol.com To: michaelabailey@netzero.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Episode Reviews Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil wrote: >I'll ask you the same question you were asked about your mailing >list (which I haven't, by the way, yet seen you answer): >What's special about your new website, as opposed to all the >other B7 websites out there, that would make me, or anyone else >but you, *want* to write stuff especially for it? Michael responded: I wasn't anticipating that anyone would feel that I am trying to better another web site. However, it completely blows my mind that someone such as yourself would be as rude and snide to insult something that was intended merely to stimulate further exchange of opinions concerning Blake's 7. I apologize if in any way I have personally insulted you. However, when you feel a need to criticize a newcomer in a way like this, the least dignity you might show would be to contact via a NON-PUBLIC correspondence. __________________________________________ and Trish throws her two cents in (as if Neil needs anyone to defend him!) Sorry Michael, but Neil was on point. It's wonderful to have more B7 websites, but there are some excellent ones already there (Neil names them) and it is wasteful to simply duplicate. Too bad you reacted as if it were a personal attack. I saw it as a challenge to create something that doesn't yet exist. Trish ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2000 11:33:07 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Re: Episode Reviews Message-ID: <20000309003307.76156.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Prmolloy@aol.com > and Trish throws her two cents in (as if Neil needs anyone to defend >him!) It's simply another example of how horribly misunderstood Neil is, right, Una? Maybe he does need the biggest fish after all. But it is true that more of an angle is needed for fan websites, something more than "Hi, I'm [insert name here] and I'm a big fan of [insert enthusiasm here]." The scattergun approach can work, but you do need to be Penny Dreadful or similar (if that's possible) to not be taken seriously as seriously, if you see what I mean. Regards Joanne (still puzzled, but mail coming through now) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 18:57:22 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Episode Reviews Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000308183258.00bac2a0@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Michael Bailey wrote: >However, it completely blows my mind that someone such as yourself would >be as rude and snide to insult something that was intended merely to >stimulate further exchange of opinions concerning Blake's 7. I didn't see anything rude or insulting about Neil's message. He was simply making a very practical and reasonable suggestion that if you want to create a B7 website, it makes more sense not to reinvent the wheel and duplicate what can already be found on other sites. If you want to create a site of real interest to fans, the idea would be to come up with some approach and material that *haven't* already been covered elsewhere. Just re-doing what's already been done means your site will fade into the woodwork rather than having individual appeal. You might also spend a bit more time on site construction before going public with it. I noticed some very odd formatting on your pages -- text overlaying other text, graphics overlaying text, etc. It's worthwhile to find an HTML editor which will validate your code before you upload it, and to test your pages at different screen resolutions and, if possible, different browsers. (At least MSIE and Netscape, the two most common ones.) Also, I would recommend not including index links to pages which don't exist yet -- it doesn't make a good impression if people navigating your site find a lot of "this page doesn't exist" messages when they try use the links. You can include the links in your test version of the page to check formatting and design, but comment them out of the "live" version until they actually go somewhere. - Lisa -- _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroica.simplenet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 13:11:35 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Generations Message-ID: <38C6C207.DAAE2727@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Katrina wrote: >Recently, I've heard the term 'Generation I' or 'the e-generation' applied to >the internet savvy lot who are just a bit too young for be Gen-Xers. A note on Gen-X. Many in this group feel it's a negative tag, as X means nothing. The term was used - not to say these people are zeros - but because the decade during which they came of age - the '90s - was unmarked by any particular type of music (unless you count rap as music) or fashion (it was a dress down era of blah beige kakhis) or notable world happenings (such as a major war or boom or depression). It just wasn't easy to associate this generation with anything outside of itself; hence the 'filler' tag. Sad, really, to come of age in such dull times. Beatle boots, mini skirts, maryjane and mass protest marches were so much more fun. >Think it'll catch on? ;) I think it already has! To go along with e-mail, e-commerce, e-tc., it should be called the e-gen. So we have: The Silent Generation (came of age during WWII) The Early Boomers ('46-'55) [good economy] The Late Boomers ('55-'64) [bad economy] The Baby Busters ('65-'75) [good economy] Gen-X ('75-'88) [bad then good economy] e-gen ('88-'00) [bad then good economy] Millenium Gen ('00-??) [good economy predicted] In the US, where money measures all, the state of the economy is hugely influential on a young persons launch into life. To be on topic: how do B7 characters match up with the personality characteristics assigned to these demographic cohorts as groups? --- Joanne wrote: >Ouch, cohort. Please don't use that one in front of me, Pat. I haven't >adjusted my thinking yet, so its use always makes me think the people >concerned are dressed as Roman centurions. Not a pretty idea, really. This term is what the sociologist / demographers use. So sue 'em. --- Gan: Silent Gen - follows a strong leader, doesn't make waves, inculcated with morals. Avon: Early Boomer - believes in his own special status, charts his own moral course. Blake: Late Boomer - must try harder, due to the strong glut of competition already ahead of him. Vila: Gen X - slacker, figures what's the point of trying in a world so obviously stacked against his own personal success? Orac: e-gen - totally wired; has the entire data base of knowledge at its virtual fingertips. (Orac, unlike Zen, doesn't say: "That information is not available.") Pat P __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2000 17:27:44 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] innies vs. outies Message-ID: <38C6FE10.EA58127F@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I clipped this bit and sent it to Tramila. Her response comes as no surprise, hey? Pat (copied post follows) >Lovely Tramila was a notable exception as >our token bouncy extrovert, and I believe it was she that made the >comparison about length of postings and extrovertness, comparing the >Lyst with one of the other lists she was on. ROTFLMAO!!!! __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2000 20:10:54 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] complexity of character Message-ID: <000201bf8997$2c9e44a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote > OK. It's a contentious point, and off topic. But it made me think about the > whole idea of complexity. There is almost a knee-jerk feeling (in me) that > greater character complexity must be good. But is it? And is that what we > find in Blakes 7 anyway? In B7, no, I don't think it's there at all. But that doesn't seem to stop people seeing it:) I think what they're really seeing is the vast empty spaces between the few definite landmarks the series gives us (more for some characters than others, of course). The temptation to fill in the gaps is irresistible. And there can't be many fans who don't know damn well that they're only guessing because ultimately that's all they can do. What *might* be less conscious is awareness of the way this gap-filling process is used to pull the character(s), and indeed the series as a whole, into conformity with ideals regarding (variously) the nature of men, of women, of relationships between the two (or each other), of alien-ness, of social dynamics, of the workings of governments ... ad nauseam. The realisation of these ideals (through fanfiction) may or may not be an accurate reflection of reality, but it probably is an accurate reflection of the writers' disparate ideals. I don't think it needs labouring that fanfic is incredibly diverse in scope, from the 'shamelessly' romantic to the relentlessly dystopian, but what this diversity shows is just how many directions the raw material (the aired series) can be taken. It can only be pulled so many ways if its depiction is less than authoritative (with regard to characters, background, or both) in itself. In other words, the strength of B7's appeal ultimately resides in its imperfection. So the series *is* crap, and for that we ought to be eternally thankful. Neil "I am not a man, I am a free number." -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #63 *************************************