From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #177 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/177 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 177 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Blakes 7 : The World Cup Years [B7L] Zines available [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] Avon and guilt--was mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? [B7L] Things on my mind [B7L] Slash (was: Zines available) [B7L] Blake as Lenin and Trotsky [B7L] Re Bloody video tapes [B7L] B7 - what a difference from Star Trek [B7L] B7 - what a difference from Star Trek Re: [B7L] Blake [B7L] Once a jolly rebel... Re: [B7L] b7- what a difference from Trek... [B7L] Avon's scanties - was Eucalyptus Oil [B7L] More bloody vid tapes Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:01:27 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Blakes 7 : The World Cup Years Message-ID: <19980626100127.43836@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Jun 23, 1998 at 06:52:36PM -0700, Todd Girdler wrote: > > >Which World Cup football team is your favourite B7 character...? > > Arco : Australia - Makes an appearance at the beginning, but soon fades > away into obscurity. > > -Todd- (Who is allowed to complain cause he's an aussie.) Yes, just like only Blake's 7 fans are allowed to knock the SFX? > "If the sum of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the > other two sides, why is a mouse when it spins?" Because the higher the fewer. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 98 23:27:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.com To: space-city@world.std.com Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Zines available Message-Id: <199806262336.XAA13177@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just learned that MKASHEF Enterprises is now agenting Wendy Rathbone's B7 (and other) zines. The prices are: Gen zines: Price per zine, including postage: U. S. Canada Europe Pacific RAISING HELL #1-6, each $16. $18. $20. $24 AVON THE TERRIBLE $12. $14. $17. $20. Slash zines: (age statement required) RESISTANCE #1-6, each $20. $22. $26. $30. RESISTANCE #7 $16. $18. $20. $24. RESISTANCE #8 $20. $22. $26. $30. LUNATIC HEROES (novel) $16. $18. $20. $24. MEMORY PLAY (novel) $16. $18. $20. $24. The address is: MKASHEF Enterprises P.O. Box 688 Yucca Valley, CA 92286-0688 "I accept orders from anywhere in the world, payment by US dollars (PLEASE be sure to send cash "registered" to Alayne Gelfand, NOT "Dovya Blacque" or MKASHEF Enterprises!), International Money Order (IMO) or traveler's checks. I'm working on getting set up to accept credit cards and will keep you up to date on how that goes. It seems credit cards would solve a lot of problems with overseas orders." SASE for a complete price list of available zines. There is lots of other stuff; I think it's mostly K/S, but I'm not sure since I'm basically a monogamous B7 fan. I haven't ordered any zines from this source myself, so I can't give a first-hand recommendation as to speed or reliability; but I did get a very prompt and thorough answer to a letter of inquiry. Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:41:55 -0400 From: DJ Wight To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <199806262042_MC2-5177-4583@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > I'd like to come back to the specific issue of Avon and money later, I said, and now it's later. Two coffee breaks and a lunch hour later: On the Avon-and-money issue, I’ve always found it an open question whether his interest in money is particularly in money. The only two times I can recall offhand, when he goes beyond simple statements of greed, the whole "Do you know how much is in there? Millions! Millions."/"I’m just sentimental about money."/"Well now. I find the idea of being wealthy rather appealing." *thing* , to give us a glimpse of where he’s coming from, and by extension, why he got into that big bank fraud in the first place, it comes down to his wanting to be so wealthy "that no one could touch"--first time him, second time, "Anna and I"--and each time, the ‘hot’ word in the line is ‘touch’. It suggests to me that the issue here isn’t being wealthy, it’s not being ‘touched’. No telling exactly what that means to him, we just don’t have the hard evidence. My guess is personal freedom---immunity from coercion by others. Two reasons for that. First and less important, the fact that he never, ever, so much as hints at there being any specific reason why it's important to him. It doesn't appear to be a means to an end, a case of "I want to be un-touchable so I can (fill in any socially repulsive act you like) and get away with it," more something he wants for its own sake. Why that should be---second and more important, I think we can get a pretty good idea from checking out the other hot spots in his character. The things that bring out his emotions. The things that send him wild. Being manipulated. Betrayal in general. Being threatened. Ugly surprises. Being afraid. Not being able to feel he has enough control, in any given situation, to guarantee his survival. For me it all adds up to a pattern of someone who’s had enough of all of the above, for his real focus to be on having the power to control his outcomes. As long as he regards money as being that which will give him that power, that’s what he fixes on. Once he figures out that winning *Liberator* as ‘his’ ship will do it better, we stop hearing so much about money, and how much everything would be worth to the Federation. Through into third series, once he’s in charge, do we ever hear that again? My sense is we don’t. We get an implied few months to a year of him relaxing. He gets sleek and comfortable in the security of ‘his’ ship, slowly begins to feel--I won’t say ‘close’ to the others, but accepted by them, that they’re his friends, and if he’s their leader, that makes him responsible to them in ways that are just beginning to become troubling, when "Terminal" blows it all gloriously to hell. --DJ angnak@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:41:58 -0400 From: DJ Wight To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Avon and guilt--was mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <199806262042_MC2-5177-4584@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I wrote, >> (e) incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, >> particularly punishment; >> >> *And now we get to it*. . We are definitely in the realm of >> psychopathic tendency, here. and Helen replied, > Avon never _admits_ to feeling guilt, but there are indications he > does. Look how his relationship with Dayna changes in the wake of her > father's death. They flirted before... but afterwards, he acted "in loco > parentis" towards her. I think he felt like he had brought the serpent > into their home, after Servalan destroyed the Mellanby household. I like this interpretation--don't see it as inconsistent with what I'm saying, given that I see Avon's tendencies to psychopathy/sociopathy as softening quite a lot between first series and fourth--but tend to see his behaviour toward Dayna after her father's murder more in terms of the compassion he seems to feel for those rare people he meets who seem to him harmless or innocent, and undeserving of their usually harsh fates. Meegat's the easy example here, but I'd throw in things like the way he reacts to "Muller's lady" in "Headhunter", after the word comes through that Muller is dead, and the way he distracts Egrorian from breaking Pindar's arm in "Orbit". In Dayna's case, I think he feels badly about her father and sister being killed (in her father's case, as much for her father's sake as hers)--but if he ever reflects on the matter, I would doubt he feels any personal responsibility for it. He didn't bring Servalan with him, did warn Hal Mellanby about her, and neither of them had any clear reason to think he couldn't handle her, unarmed as they believed her to be. > His desire to avenge Anna's "death" comes from, in part, I think a > sense of guilt over the notion that she died for him. Not impossible. His 'officially' not knowing about her death until Del Grant tells him has the feel of a rather fragile defence against his feelings about that likelihood, and when he responds to Grant's charges of his abandoning her, later, in more detail-- even when the facts as he presents them appear to stand inspection, he seems to have some trouble accepting them himself. > But he doesn't wallow in guilt most of the time-- "Regret...is part of being alive. But keep it a small part." Not having much to go on, regarding how he manages the trick, it's always fun to speculate. --DJ angnak@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:39:09 EDT From: StefiAB@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <1f36bbf4.35943f2e@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Edna wrote: >I have seen several episodes where Avon goes on and on about >money and money that, but in the second episode where the >original crew get on the liberator and Avon discovers wealth >beyond that of the banking cartel. So, episodes like gambit do >not make sense, because the crew is already wealthy, from >that point. For Avon it was never really about the money, just the security wealth could buy..."We were going to be so rich no one could touch us." The wealth on the Liberator meant nothing to Avon because it couldn't buy him what he wanted. The 10 million he won in "Gambit" with Vila represented all that he sought. Avon just wanted to be left alone to live in comfort on some planet and play with his gadgets and create. No amount of wealth aboard the Liberator would have been of use to Avon with Servalan and the Federation chasing him. >And why is he so nasty to people who would protect him ( except >Vila)? Avon can't quite grasp the notion that anyone would really care enough about him to want to protect him so he distrusts their motives, even those of his crew. Not surprising since he could never accept that he cared about them, though he obviously did. I just read a story with a great line from Cally to Blake. Blake: You heard him! Cally: When are you going to learn to stop listening to what Avon says and listen to what he means?" hee,hee I love it! >Was Avon crazy? No! Just very stressed out. A psychopath? No...the very fact that Avon acknowledges it proves he isn't. Paranoid? Hmm, well he DOES have people following him and they ARE trying to kill him. >And whassup with that fourth season dude- way different from >the cold, mean snob we all love to hate 1st season. Love to hate?? That doesn't describe MY reaction to Avon. >4th season looked as if ham on wry was being served for lunch >every day! My only complaint with 4th season was Avon's costumes (except for the much discussed flight suit in "Warlord", yum!). I didn't care for the leather & studs look. But characterwise I found it an interesting progression for Avon. And quite in keeping with the direction the story was going. >And finally, dear god, why didn't the crew kill him if he's such a >goddamn jerk? Jerk!!?? Kill him!!?? Hmmm, I could spend days elaborating on this but I will spare all of you that. Suffice it to say that as a card carrying A.S.K.S. and A.S.S. Avonite I can tell you he is not a jerk. ;) I could go into all the stuff about how the crew really care for each other and Avon is not really as cold as he seems, but it's all been said before. And usually said quite beautifully. Hello, Edna, welcome to the list. Do you have a favorite character? It's obviously not Avon? Stefanie Price *Totally Avon* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:30:09 EDT From: ShelaB7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable Message-ID: <46cf7ba.35944b23@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Stefanie wrote: >Avon just wanted to be left alone to live in comfort on some planet and >play with his gadgets and create. No amount of wealth aboard the >Liberator would have been of use to Avon with Servalan and the >Federation chasing him. Hey! Cool, Stefanie!!! I never thought of this before. How come you never brought this up at any of the meetings? Shela Avon/Tarrant!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:25:15 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <19980627042517.8057.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Hi Stephanie! And all those who were kind enough to welcome me to the discussion list. A few points: 1. My name is Edith, not Edna.(LOL!) 2. I have a rush of questions about the characters and motivations- this show was a part ofg an interesting childhood and I have not gotten the chance to discuss it with many people, so do have patience. 3. I find Blake intersting, Avon fascinating, Vila weird and Jenna really cool. Cally disturbs me( I think it was the appearance of the actress as well as the telepathic mind. Until Kate Moss, Jan Chappelle was the most thin woman I ever saw who was not in the hospital.) So i do not have a favorite charavcter per se, but I can see why people would definite go for Avon- strong intellect, useful hands, interesting view of the world, great voice... 4. Thank you to DJ for his rather detail pov- wow. Such care into your analysis- i hope I can be just as perceptive! However, both DJ and Step do have legit points- despite being capable of arranging death for his own survival ( and quite frankly, if I was ever put into that situation, I do not think I can say I couldn't do it) Avon shows a strong loyality to blake and the crew. I would not want the responsiblities of third and fourth season Avon; I can barely figure out post college life! Edith Spencer ( no relation to Diana ) >From: StefiAB@aol.com >Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 20:39:09 EDT >To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se >Subject: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? > >>Edna wrote: >>I have seen several episodes where Avon goes on and on about >>money and money that, but in the second episode where the >>original crew get on the liberator and Avon discovers wealth >>beyond that of the banking cartel. So, episodes like gambit do >>not make sense, because the crew is already wealthy, from >>that point. > >For Avon it was never really about the money, just the security wealth could >buy..."We were going to be so rich no one could touch us." > >The wealth on the Liberator meant nothing to Avon because it couldn't buy him >what he wanted. The 10 million he won in "Gambit" with Vila represented all >that he sought. > >Avon just wanted to be left alone to live in comfort on some planet and play >with his gadgets and create. No amount of wealth aboard the Liberator would >have been of use to Avon with Servalan and the Federation chasing him. > >>And why is he so nasty to people who would protect him ( except >>Vila)? > >Avon can't quite grasp the notion that anyone would really care enough about >him >to want to protect him so he distrusts their motives, even those of his crew. >Not surprising since he could never accept that he cared about them, though he >obviously did. > >I just read a story with a great line from Cally to Blake. > >Blake: You heard him! >Cally: When are you going to learn to stop listening to what Avon says and >listen to what he means?" > >hee,hee I love it! > >>Was Avon crazy? > >No! Just very stressed out. > >A psychopath? No...the very fact that Avon acknowledges it proves he isn't. > >Paranoid? Hmm, well he DOES have people following him and they ARE trying to >kill him. > >>And whassup with that fourth season dude- way different from >>the cold, mean snob we all love to hate 1st season. > >Love to hate?? That doesn't describe MY reaction to Avon. > >>4th season looked as if ham on wry was being served for lunch >>every day! > >My only complaint with 4th season was Avon's costumes (except for the much >discussed flight suit in "Warlord", yum!). I didn't care for the leather & >studs look. But characterwise I found it an interesting progression for Avon. >And quite in keeping with the direction the story was going. > >>And finally, dear god, why didn't the crew kill him if he's such a >>goddamn jerk? > >Jerk!!?? Kill him!!?? Hmmm, I could spend days elaborating on this but I >will >spare all of you that. Suffice it to say that as a card carrying A.S.K.S. and >A.S.S. Avonite I can tell you he is not a jerk. ;) I could go into all the >stuff about how the crew really care for each other and Avon is not really as >cold as he seems, but it's all been said before. And usually said quite >beautifully. > >Hello, Edna, welcome to the list. Do you have a favorite character? It's >obviously not Avon? > >Stefanie Price >*Totally Avon* > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:51:06 PDT From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Things on my mind Message-ID: <19980627055107.16036.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Hello to everyone! Unfortunately my new job isn't really internet friendly (unsurprising, as publishing companies have deadlines in a big way), so I'll just grab the opportunity to say a few words while I can. You never know, I might turn into a Pat Fenech clone (meaning thoughtful, if infrequent, posting). Topic one: You Know You Haven't Been Watching Enough Blake's 7 When... you have one of those little wooden mannequin things and, without thinking, you make it adopt the "maximum power" pose. It had it's arms folded, a la Avon, before, so I don't know if the change is for better or worse. Topic two: To the Godmother of the Tarrant Nostra, and her minions, all hail! Can this lowly worm plead having taped the repeat of Stephen Pacey's episode of "Pie in the Sky" when it was on a little while ago? No? I thought not. As for fifitrix's comment about horses' heads, how many, may I ask, of the Tarrant Nostra reside in Sydney (where I spend the working week)? Let alone Newcastle, where I spend my weekends - I think I'm safe on weekends, as it seems to be mostly Trek and Who fans around here. The only fellow Blake's 7 fan I know personally who feels about Tarrant as you do is teaching English in Japan. Do I score any points for a friend with taste? Topic three: A BIG thankyou to fanfic writers, or particularly to those with stories in a folder I've compiled to help keep me sane during the working week. These include Crispin Bateman, Judith Proctor (even though I've already thanked her for "A Berth on The London"), Kathryn Andersen (Vila thumping Avon to help keep the Mara in limbo for a bit longer is priceless!), Maddog (with and without Joyce Riffle - it would be Soolin in the house of Despair, her background in revenge and mercenary-for-hire seems to warrant it), Pat Patera (James T Travis, indeed, let alone the alternative versions of the rest of the first series crew!), Reba Bandyopadhyay, Miriam Kerr and Alicia Ann Fox. To these and to those others I haven't mentioned yet, you have my thanks. I've downloaded other writing today (thankyou in advance to Leah and Annie for putting stories on the Ashton press site, even though I haven't the time now to read them). Long may you all continue to write and allow this folder to expand! Au revoir, in an e-mail sense, and maybe I can write again another time. Regards Jo People must not do things for fun. We are not here for fun. There is no reference to fun in any Act of Parliament. --A. P. Herbert ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 98 06:16:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.com To: sueno45%hotmail.com%internet#@genie.com Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Slash (was: Zines available) Message-Id: <199806270640.GAA05011@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > TO ALL > I am scared almost to ask, but what is a "slash" zine or "Slash" > Story? > Edith Spencer Ah yes, it is a somewhat controversial matter. Slash stories are stories about sexual or romantic relationships between media characters of the same sex, usually male; the stories are written mostly by and for women. The term comes from the punctuation indicating the characters paired in the story, as in K/S (Kirk and Spock), the pairing that slash fandom started with, over 20 years ago. Gen means something like "general audiences," i.e. all ages, no explicit sex. Depending on the policy of the individual zine editor, gen zines often include non-explicit heterosexual sex scenes. A few gen zines will include stories with a non-explicit homosexual plot element, but usually those stories are considered slash even if not explicit. Heterosexual erotica is kind of an in-between category. It is often called "adult," but that term is a little confusing as some people use "adult" to refer to any kind of erotica, het or slash. It might also be called "het" or "straight." There appears to be a good deal less of it than there is of slash, but IMO that's misleading; I think it just looks that way because the non-explicit heterosexual stories are usually classified as gen. There are a good many people in fandom who strongly dislike any kind of erotic fan fiction, and especially slash. There used to be fights about it on this list about every six months or so, as you see if you read the archives (I recommend them to your attention anyway-- there was lots of good stuff on this list back in the old days). Since 1995 there has been another list, the Space City list, where people who would like to talk about slash and related topics can do so in peace. Unlike this list, it's moderated, and attacks on other members are not allowed. Also, because of the nature of the SC list, an age statement is required of all members. If you think you'd be interested in joining Space City, send a request and age statement to the listowner, Susan Beth: sbs@world.std.com . Then, once you get on, you'll be asked to post a short introduction about your fannish interests. (Something like, "Hi, I'm So-and-so, and I think Avon is hot stuff" is fine.) Not all of the members are slash fans; some prefer het adult, and some are just interested in fan fiction in general. Writing is discussed here on this list, too, of course, but perhaps a bit more on SC. Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:34:17 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Blake as Lenin and Trotsky Message-Id: <698390298MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> Edith said: "Blake is quite easy to figure out actually- an educated idealist living in a decayed, corrupt, oppressive system who wants to destroy it. An English Lenin or Trotsky, perhaps." No way. Lenin and Trotsky would have both slammed Blake for the way he went about things. They were against what they called "adventurists" and Trotsky in particular wrote a lot attacking those who committed acts of individual terrorism in the name of the cause. Avalon was probably more in their mould, going around different planets building up movements from below. Lenin especially did a lot of that (but with countries not planets ). Edith also said: "I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush." That'll be Avon: A Terrible Aspect by Paul Darrow, which I believe is still available from Horizon. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 11:37:13 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re Bloody video tapes Message-Id: <698390321MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> Una asked: "Has anyone got any information about release dates?" Wel vol 6 (Bounty and Deliverance) was due out last week (22 June), though I haven't seen it on sale anywhere yet. Vol 7 (Orac and Redemption) is due out 27 July. I read most of the UK SF mags and none have them have given dates beyond that. Btw, the barcode label turned out to be easier to remove than I feared. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:20:30 +1000 From: "Afenech" To: Subject: [B7L] B7 - what a difference from Star Trek Message-Id: <11215749895691@domain2.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone :) and especially to Edith who has encouraged awfully good discussion which has prodded even this infreqent poster to put finger to keyboard On June 25 Edith said amongst other very interesting comments: <> and this earnest 50+ year old thought: This is not boring. This is entirely relevant. This is what 'Blakes 7' *is* about. It is about deeply relevant questions facing any society - about what is the purpose of government? Is it the weal of the commons ( to be old fashioned but most descriptive) or the good of the commonwealth as decided by others than the commons whose weal is supposedly the point. 'Blakes 7' prompts consideration of such things and further matters which arise from any such consideration. Such as the justication for any government deliberately, as a policy decision, taking away the right of the commons to decide such matters with a clear mind. And even further, if a government acts in such a way so much at odds with the idea of the commonweal then is it wrong to oppose it, even if it has legitimised itself in some way? 'Blakes 7' is certainly far more thought provoking than 'Star Trek', for me anyway. 'Star Trek' is an optimists view perhaps - it suggests what humanity might, in flights of fancy, be seen as capable of. Given humaity's rather chequered history 'Blakes 7' might be considered the realists view, might be seen as what we might expect if the not infrequent outcrys against lack of public order are listened to with any seriousness. Pat Fenech ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 21:34:08 +1000 From: "Afenech" To: Subject: [B7L] B7 - what a difference from Star Trek Message-Id: <11271609195941@domain2.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone :) and especially to Edith who has encouraged awfully good discussion which has prodded even this infreqent poster to put finger to keyboard On June 25 Edith said amongst other very interesting comments: <> and this earnest 50+ year old thought: This is not boring. This is entirely relevant. This is what 'Blakes 7' *is* about. It is about deeply relevant questions facing any society - about what is the purpose of government? Is it the weal of the commons ( to be old fashioned but most descriptive) or the good of the commonwealth as decided by others than the commons whose weal is supposedly the point. 'Blakes 7' prompts consideration of such things and further matters which arise from any such consideration. Such as the justication for any government deliberately, as a policy decision, taking away the right of the commons to decide such matters with a clear mind. And even further, if a government acts in such a way so much at odds with the idea of the commonweal then is it wrong to oppose it, even if it has legitimised itself in some way? 'Blakes 7' is certainly far more thought provoking than 'Star Trek', for me anyway. 'Star Trek' is an optimists view perhaps - it suggests what humanity might, in flights of fancy, be seen as capable of. Given humaity's rather chequered history 'Blakes 7' might be considered the realists view, might be seen as what we might expect if the not infrequent outcrys against lack of public order are listened to with any seriousness. The Avon discussion has been good reading too DJ's and Helen's summations I read and admired - an ability to sum Avon up is wondrous to behold and hardly to be bettered so I won't try However, I would like to say something about another of Edith's points: >> As to my earlier rambling about Avon seeming rather fixated on money- if he really was the number two guy in computer programming in the Federation, he must have some sort of comfortable lifestyle ( No, I have not read any fanfic. Yet.) and yet he goes off and plans this massive fraud. While plan a fraud when you are comfortable already? Was it the thrill of planning and getting away with it, rather than the actual money itself? And with another man's wife(Anna/Bart)? Was the society so decayed that one of it's most talented members felt compelled to try to get away with it? ( By the way, my russian friend Kyra said that all intellectuals-writers, artists, scientists- were watched closely by the government. Is this perhaps why Avon wound up in jail, anyway?) >> This is interesting - I wonder if the Federation perhaps was much as your friend from Russia remembers. Were the Federation's 'best and brightest' looked after in just such a way with no real freedom at all, except to fulfill the role expected of them by the Federation. I cannot imagine being very content in such circumstances. Avon is an individual really, you dont say Pat and individuals don't seem too happy in totalitarian states if the number of big-name defectors is any sort of barometer of the matter. A pointer to a similiar sort of sitaution in the Federation might be the flight of scientists like Ensor and to a lesser extent Egrorian? Just a thought Pat Fenech ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:11:02 +0930 From: "Ophelia" To: "B7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake Message-ID: <01bda1af$b2ea7320$LocalHost@waltersmith> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen K wrote: >DCsquared@aol.com wrote: Blake enabled us to find that "something" in Avon that made him so much >> more than a dark, selfish sod. None of the other characters were able to >> illuminate that other part of Avon as well as Blake, though Cally would have >> been second. > >And Vila, on occaision. Tho, I think there was kind of a tacit agreement >between them to take each other at face value. You beat me to it! "Gambit" is such an endearing episode, Avon-wise, as is "City on the Edge of the World." And, if not for that little incident on the shuttlecraft, "Orbit" would have been a brilliant example of the kind of jostling, insulting mutual comradeship the two could produce. I'm A/V forever, I'm afraid... - XXX Lindley Ophelia - ophelia@picknowl.com.au "The girl has beauty, virtue, wit, Grace, humour, wisdom, charity and pluck." LONDON CALLING - a list to discuss Britcoms and knockwurst. http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/2511/knockwurst.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:22:58 +0930 From: "Ophelia" To: "B7 list" Subject: [B7L] Once a jolly rebel... Message-ID: <01bda1b1$5d8dcf60$LocalHost@waltersmith> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As Pterry was mentioned on list a while back... I've just read "The Last Continent," and I'm wondering if the reason I didn't really take to Blake is that I'm EcksEcksEcksEcksian, and I can't imagine Blake stealing a sheep. He just lacks that larrikin rebel-against-order quality that many of his followers had in such quantities. - XXX Lindley Ophelia - ophelia@picknowl.com.au "The girl has beauty, virtue, wit, Grace, humour, wisdom, charity and pluck." LONDON CALLING - a list to discuss Britcoms and knockwurst. http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/2511/knockwurst.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:07:02 +0930 From: "Ophelia" To: "Edith Spencer" , Subject: Re: [B7L] b7- what a difference from Trek... Message-ID: <01bda1af$241beac0$LocalHost@waltersmith> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Edith - pretty name, btw, d'you fancy yourself as a cabaret artist? - and welcome. Avon was like my >bad uncle Alman, who was handsome, smart, gay( yes, I know the character >and the actor are not gay) That first is open to interpretation, as is the orientation of any character. and said the most outrageous things polite >people would never dare to say in polite society. Ah, the poison-tongued queen, dashing and charming and outrageous, from Oscar Wilde to Julian Clary - love them all. Avon could definitely be seen as part of that tradition, with his fancy outfits and laser wit. I would call my >friends up, sneek down my mom's basement and watched the crew of >criminals trying to break down an oppressive regime. Quite perfect for a >teenager... I hit it as a disaffected Gen X 19 year old myself. Fit in perfectly with how I felt about society. And clothes. Only three years ago, my goddess - it feels like I have been watching it all my life. > But so was Trek, with it's special effects, cool uniforms and sleek >ship. And the resident alien, Spock, commenting on the behavior of >everyone else sometimes had a sharp and telling point about how we >behave. > When I got much older, went to college and travelled around for my >education, i started to see tv differently. (No, i will not become >boring philosophical or try to impress you all with grad school >speak- The temptation will be too much eventually, mark my words. - not to impress people, but because treating B7 very seriously sometimes seems to *demand* some hard-core analysis. just some observations I made, most of which may be blindingly >obvious)Whereas Trek celebrates this one world government that has made >all of the ills of society almost non-exisent, and celebrates the useful >and helpful aspects of technology, Blake's 7 seems to be a more telling >and slightly more realistic view of the future as it could be. Exactly! DS9 questioned some of the aspects of the Federation hegemony, but it was noticable the least popular - although best - Trek incarnation. And even DS9 pushed the "we know best" thing on occaison. For e.g., on an ep recently screened over here in Aus., Bajor seemd to be about to reinstate their caste system, and were told that if this were done, they would no longer be eligible for Federation status. From that, I can only assume that the British-initiated purge of India's caste system was completed by the American Federation culture, and that there are severe restrictions on cultural diversity in the Federation. So much for IDIC... (n.b., I'm not arguing in favour of the caste system here, just questioning whether one culture has the right to dictate to another.) I sympathise the Marquis agent who described the Federation as worse than the Borg. On the other hand, we have B7, where the current government is blatantly corrupt and oppressive, and the opposition can sometimes look nearly as bad. I find that being a fan of B7 makes me more prone to suspect the apparently benevolent Trek government. You might logically argue that the main difference between the two Federations is how blatant they are. > Here in the United States, where a person's function and proximity >to wealth is prized along with shallow patriotism and even more shallow >spirituality, blake's 7 seems to be a dark shadow of what happens when >we devalue individuality and participation in government and start >putting more value on corporations and where they can take us today. > Oh dear- I have become boring. Far from it. > Blame it on being an earnest 24 year >old. I make myself watch "the Young Ones" - not that hard a task, anyway - and remind myself not to become Rick. >Of course, B7 sets and costumes are funny than hell- and talk about >a bad hair day...on Trek, there no such thing as a bad set or a bad hair >day. Hmm. What about some of Yeoman Rand's wigs? And Crusher and Troi had some shockers of 'dos, not to mention Spock. Still, no one tops Zeeona, I admit. - XXX Lindley Ophelia - ophelia@picknowl.com.au "The girl has beauty, virtue, wit, Grace, humour, wisdom, charity and pluck." LONDON CALLING - a list to discuss Britcoms and knockwurst. http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/2511/knockwurst.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:21:45 +0930 From: "Ophelia" To: Subject: [B7L] Avon's scanties - was Eucalyptus Oil Message-ID: <01bda1b1$32466740$LocalHost@waltersmith> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie Horner wrote: >Yes, but in all that tight leather gear what we really >want to know is how does he avoid VPL? > >I had to buy special undies and they are still not 100%. > >No don't anyone make the obvious suggestion. It's a toss-up, really, whether Avon in silk undies or Avon without them seems the nicer fetish... I've always assumed, though, that what he was wearing wan't really dead animal skin. There isn't musch argiculture visibly going on in the Federation. I mean, we'll have had untold centuries to come up with someting that looks more like real leather than those tacky black vinyl coats all the teen girls were wearing last winter. Hopefully whatever Avon is wearing breathes beautifully, doesn't wear silk down and doesn't transfer its colour to your scanties. - XXX Lindley Ophelia - ophelia@picknowl.com.au "The girl has beauty, virtue, wit, Grace, humour, wisdom, charity and pluck." LONDON CALLING - a list to discuss Britcoms and knockwurst. http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/2511/knockwurst.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:38:22 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] More bloody vid tapes Message-Id: <698391346MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> As a follow up to my previous post on this, I've just been in central London and neither Virgin on Oxford Street nor Forbidden Planet had tape six in stock. I'm going to a sci fi fair in Kent tomorrow, so maybe one of the dealers will have it on sale. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 09:18:39 -0400 From: DJ Wight To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] mental illness- was Avon ceritifiable? Message-ID: <199806270919_MC2-5180-6D3F@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit G'morning, Edith, Stephanie, everybody, Edith wrote, > 2. I have a rush of questions about the characters > and motivations- this show was a part of an interesting > childhood and I have not gotten the chance to discuss > it with many people, so do have patience. No prob. Can't speak for the rest of the community, but I've certainly been there. Between the time I tripped over "Breakdown" in June '92 or '93 (not sure which it was, just now!) and December '95, when digital phone lines made Internet access conceivable for the first time, into the small NWOntario community where I was then living-- well, in Sioux Lookout, sf meant ST and its clones, end of story. > 4. Thank you to DJ for his rather detail pov- wow. Such care into your analysis- i hope I can be just as perceptive! I'm a 'her'...sorry, I get people with this one fairly regularly out in RL. Any perceptiveness can be taken as entirely the result of taking an accountancy-trained (detail freak) brain and isolating it in the bush for 2-3 years with nothing better to play with than B7 tapes. > However, both DJ and Step do have legit points- despite being > capable of arranging death for his own survival (and quite > frankly, if I was ever put into that situation, I do not think I > can say I couldn't do it) Avon shows a strong loyality to blake > and the crew. We talking about "Orbit" here? Or the earlier business in "Space Fall"? Not that it matters a lot. As far as Avon's loyalties are concerned, I tend to think 'evolution'. Working from a basis of near-complete alienation from other people at entrance, by the end of first series he achieves a kind of prickly acceptance of the people he's with. Doesn't give an inch he doesn't have to, as a rule, but accepts, I think, that if not friends as he would define friends, they're at least not his enemies, either. Second series he begins to show signs of recognizing he's missing *something* in being the way he is--I'm thinking of "Shadow", when Blake comments that Cally is an alien, and he replies "She is more human than I am."--and we get that lovely moment of crisis in "Horizon" when he gets as far as "...I do not need anybody at all," and the look on his face tells the rest of the story. I don't know if he's quite able to admit, then or at any point in what's left of that series, that this really isn't true any more. By "Aftermath" he seems to have got as far as accepting that the others are sufficiently his friends, for him to care what's become of them, and within reason, treat their interests as his own. It's one of the charms of third series, for me, that by the end the support they give him looks as though it's beginning to open him up. Nothing really clear or focussed, but things like his reaching out to Cally at the beginning of "Sarcophagus", his mildly bemused protest at Tarrant's commandeering Vila in "Moloch", and all of "Terminal". IMO we do begin to see signs of trouble there. Avon's determination to keep any hint of Blake's possible involvement with the messages he's received (I think he does suspect, right from the start, that the whole thing's a trap), and his "there's always an argument!" frustration both suggest he doesn't much respect the others' intelligence or trust them to hear out his concerns about the situation. *Not* to imply too heavily that he's wrong in that. I'd make the odds virtual certainty on their tearing him apart emotionally over any cautions he might offer and charging overenthusiastically off to the rescue, exactly as he suggests they'd have done. It's telling, that he doesn't take that chance. Instead, he does his absolute best to protect them, every step of the way, and for my money--if the whole production hadn't ended the way it did, a year later, I'd call it his finest hour. When he hits "Go and keep going!" my enduring sense of it is: he's grown up. He's come into his own as a leader, he's gods-be *earned* his place. If anyone still doubted it, that unacknowledged heart of his is exactly where they need it to be. Interesting part is--I think it's still there, a year later. And Stephanie wrote, >I just read a story with a great line from Cally to Blake. > >Blake: You heard him! >Cally: When are you going to learn to stop listening to > what Avon says and listen to what he means?" *EXACTly.* I love it. Taima, taima, enough, shutting up now. --DJ angnak@compuserve.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #177 **************************************