From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #180 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/180 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 180 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Slash (was: Zines available) Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Re: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Re: [B7L] Lost in Space [for British fans] [B7L] Re: unsubscribe [B7L] CHEAP used B7 zines for sale RE: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Re: [B7L] Re: unsubscribe Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt [B7L] Re: Ah, sweet love on Liberator Re: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:53:09 +0100 From: "Tom Forsyth" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Slash (was: Zines available) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sarah T wrote: > Since 1995 there has been another > list, the Space City list, where people who would like to talk about > slash and related topics can do so in peace. Unlike this list, it's > moderated, and attacks on other members are not allowed. Also, > because of the nature of the SC list, an age statement is required > of all members. SC isn't moderated. If anything, it seems less self-moderated than Lysator to me. People do still complain that Lysator is "meant" to allow non-explicit slash as well, but in practice everything slash-related tends to go to SC, just to be safe (and to avoid flame wars). Everything explicit - slash or het - should go to SC - hence the age declaration: > If you think you'd be interested in joining Space City, send a request > and age statement to the listowner, Susan Beth: sbs@world.std.com. > Then, once you get on, you'll be asked to post a short introduction > about your fannish interests. (Something like, "Hi, I'm So-and-so, > and I think Avon is hot stuff" is fine.) Come on in. The water's lovely. Tom Forsyth. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 02:20:42 +0100 From: "Tom Forsyth" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Um, did not mean to offend A.S.K.S. Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edith S wrote: > Of course, the other charms are less edifying- Cally's > shocking thinness, Blake's Afro(Welshfro?) Jenna's outfits, Vila's > sideburns and Avon's, um, leather. Superb! Always wondered what you called Blake's hair. Actually, shouldn't it be a "Taffro"? Tom Forsyth. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:51:29 +0100 From: "Tom Forsyth" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edith S wrote: > P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who > played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a > periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and > proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the > time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of > the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush. Yes indeed - "Avon: A Terrible Aspect". Proclaimed by all who have read it as utter tosh. And nothing like the Avon we know, either. The general advice seems to be that your mother was (1) right (I seem to remember references to a rape scene?) and (2) acting in the best interests of your literary upbringing anyway. Avoid "Queen: The Eye", also by Paul Darrow, for similar reasons. The computer game of the same name is also rubbish, though Paul only did voiceovers for that, so it's not all his fault. Tom Forsyth. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:55:41 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Message-ID: <19980630055542.28655.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Hello, Tom- One thing about This list, you guys do not feel in any way like the stars are sacrosanct, unlike some discussion threads in the Trek Newsgroups. There you do not question the divinity of Shatner. Utter tosh- there is a turn of phrase! And yes, I suppose my mom was trying to protect me from myself- That book and the Worker weekly was a way for her to freak out. I did not want to be the good Carribean girl in participated in the pageants and parades, and get named "Miss Guyana" or "Senorita Panama" ( where my parents are from. ) What better way than to have weird, awful reading material in my room? As for the Lenin/Trotsky comparision, I was casting about for ideas- I should said something more along the lines of Che. Edith Spencer >Reply-To: >From: "Tom Forsyth" >To: "B7 Lysator" >Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt >Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 01:51:29 +0100 > >Edith S wrote: >> P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who >> played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. My mother did a >> periodic sweep of my room ( Carribean Catholics, you know) and >> proclaimed ( the book, along with some commie lit I was also into at the >> time)obscene and disgusting. Does anybody else remember this? Some of >> the passages were enough to make a 15 year girl blush. > >Yes indeed - "Avon: A Terrible Aspect". Proclaimed by all who have read it >as utter tosh. And nothing like the Avon we know, either. The general >advice seems to be that your mother was (1) right (I seem to remember >references to a rape scene?) and (2) acting in the best interests of your >literary upbringing anyway. > >Avoid "Queen: The Eye", also by Paul Darrow, for similar reasons. The >computer game of the same name is also rubbish, though Paul only did >voiceovers for that, so it's not all his fault. > > >Tom Forsyth. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:28:13 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Message-ID: <19980630062814.10709.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain To all, Hello! I apologise for the somewhat sleazy sounding subject header. It is not all that bad. I have post a similiar query on the Other List, so I will venture forth here- the question of love. Put aside any recriminations of fanfic and lets think about the series it itself ( God, I sound like one of my professors-"lets look directly at the text, please"). Was it possible for Blake to have loved anyone other than his cause? This is a somewhat serious question, because it wasnt really addressed on the show. He showed tolerance and some affection for the crew ( Avon is a special case, see below) but not too much emotional attachment ( Gan death really get to him). There did not seem to be a lot of implied romantic or platonic love on his part. ( I am kinda attached to this first question, because throughout college, I had a string of boyfriends- and I can safely say i did not love anyone of them. Not one. I was too involved with my studies and traveling. I had deep friendships, but I never really loved my boyfriends. And after telling them, it would hurt them and it would hurt me- then I would go back to my studies.) Cally and Jenna- Would these two women put up with A, B or Vila? And why were they not close to each other- women bonding and all that ? Vila- more unloveable than Avon, really, because at least Avon had style, which counts for a lot?(paraphrase Pulp Fiction.) Could someone so drug addled and drunk be able to love another person? Feel platonic love towards his fellow crew? Avon- Has Style(tm) which counts for a lot. Actually, I would like hear opinions on this- anyway you look at it, Avon loving/not loving someone is rather dangerous. Did Avon truly love Anna, or was she like a symbol or trophy to him, something he could not have easily, and in so his desire was made greater for her? (Like the fraud, iow)And he did care about the crew, despite his rather pithy remarks. But did he love them? Could he have love them? Would they had wanted to love them? Because with a person like Avon saying that he loves you... he would damn well mean it. Well, I will wrap it up for now; gotta go work for the man in the morning. Look forward to your comments! Edith Spencer ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:33:00 +1000 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Message-ID: <19980630213300.63867@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:28:13PM -0700, Edith Spencer wrote: Some fascinating questions, to which I will not do justice, but I'll say *something*, anyway. > Was it possible for Blake to have loved anyone other than his cause? The impression I get was - no. Cause came first. > Cally and Jenna- Would these two women put up with A, B or Vila? And why > were they not close to each other- women bonding and all that ? Jenna felt hostile towards Cally from the start, because she was an "alien" and couldn't be trusted. Therefore there was a long way to go before they could be close. I don't really think either of them were the kind to get close anyway; Jenna because she had learned in her tough life not to look "weak", and Cally because she was doubly isolated because she was cut off from her people, and, depending on what Auron culture was really like, could have found it difficult to relate closely to non-Aurons anyway, them not being telepathic. > Vila- more unloveable than Avon, really, because at least Avon had > style, which counts for a lot?(paraphrase Pulp Fiction.) Could someone > so drug addled and drunk be able to love another person? Feel platonic > love towards his fellow crew? Well, I wouldn't call him quite drug-addled and drunk. He was a lot worse in fourth season than he was earlier, probably because there was very little hope, and nowhere to go. Vila is a coward, but he isn't a Bastard (TM) > Avon- Has Style(tm) which counts for a lot. Actually, I would like hear > opinions on this- anyway you look at it, Avon loving/not loving someone > is rather dangerous. Did Avon truly love Anna, or was she like a symbol > or trophy to him, something he could not have easily, and in so his > desire was made greater for her? (Like the fraud, iow)And he did care > about the crew, despite his rather pithy remarks. But did he love them? > Could he have love them? Would they had wanted to love them? Because > with a person like Avon saying that he loves you... > he would damn well mean it. He did love Anna. He loved her enough to die for her; the tragedy was that she didn't love him enough to do the same - but it was she who died and not him. Thing is this. Anna obviously didn't start off loving Avon: he was just another undercover job. But if she did love Avon, she was caught between a rock and a hard place: no matter what she did, she would have to betray someone - Avon, or the Federation. One interpretation was that she tried to compromise between the two. No, Anna was never a trophy for Avon. He's not a trophy collector. People here have already talked about the fraud, and why it wasn't the money per se that he was after. Yes, if Avon actually finally did say he loves someone, "he would damn well mean it". Partly because it would take a heck of a lot to actually bring him to say so much. (You'd have to practically pull teeth in order to get him to admit he was *friends* with someone - loving would be N times harder) He did care about the crew. So what is the difference between caring about them and loving them, then? Is there any? What kind of love are you talking about? If you look at Terminal, you see, that when it came to the crunch, he was prepared to die rather than see the Liberator and the crew fall into Servalan's hands - and it wasn't just the Liberator he was protecting. On the other hand, we see in Orbit, that he is apparently prepared to kill in order to save his own skin. What a turnabout. Is it? Can it be reconciled? Gotta go. Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Vila: I can't see Blake throwing himself on that, can you? Avon: I can't see him finding the right place. (Blake's 7: Duel [A8]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 12:02:20 +0100 From: "Dangermouse" To: , Subject: Re: [B7L] Lost in Space [for British fans] Message-Id: <199806301142.MAA08081@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: jim.bartlett@bbc.co.uk > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > Subject: [B7L] Lost in Space [for British fans] > Date: 29 June 1998 15:37 > > Just to confirm what Harriet Monkhouse, Anne Lane, and Diane Gies via > Judith have said. I've just got hold of next week's Radio Times, and > Lost in Space is indeed listed as being on BBC 2, Friday 10th July at > 7.15pm. It's preceded by the 'Mark of Gideon' episode of Star Trek, > which was also postponed. Game, set and match, I think! Not in Scotland, it isn't - here it's preceded by golf... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 22:26:18 +1000 From: Sven To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: unsubscribe Message-ID: <3598D969.B8745896@zeta.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit unsubscribe avatar@zeta.org.au ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 08:44:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Susan Clerc To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: [B7L] CHEAP used B7 zines for sale Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII FOR SALE _CHEAP_: two original zines and a bunch of photocopies of Out of Print zines (I checked Linda Knight's web site for current availability). These are mostly older zines, perfect for someone into the history of B7 fandom or interested in how fan fic tropes develop. Prices are at the bottom. Originals: Interface 11 Input 4 Copies: Amare 2 Avon On-line Avon's 8 Collected Dark Between the Stars #4 Desperado Down and Safe #7* Laughing Mutoid* Liberator Dreams* Magnificent 7 #8,9 Mirage Plain Man's Guide to Alien Invasions II Quicksilver Rising #3* Reflections in a Shattered Glass Seven Live On Standard by Several #1 Stargate #3 Strategies Titles marked with an * are $1 each (they're tiny). All others $3 each. Postage will be extra and depend on how many zines you want. Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html "Can you smell what the Rock is cooking?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 15:02:30 +-200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: RE: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Message-Id: <01BDA438.1DD71280@cmg71700449> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:28:13PM -0700, Edith Spencer wrote: Some fascinating questions, to which I will not do justice, but I'll say *something*, anyway. > Was it possible for Blake to have loved anyone other than his cause? The impression I get was - no. Cause came first. > Cally and Jenna- Would these two women put up with A, B or Vila? I think that by the time Jenna and Blake left the liberator together, she did love him. Blakes' remarks in "Blake" would seem to indicate that he felt something like it about her. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: 30 Jun 1998 15:17:09 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: Sven Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: unsubscribe Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sven writes: > unsubscribe avatar@zeta.org.au *sigh* It's time to repost the instructions, isn't it? Not that I think that anyone who needs them will actually *read* them, but... In order to subscribe to the list in single-mail form, send a mail with the single word subscribe as the subject to blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se In order to subscribe to the list in digest form, send a mail with the single word subscribe as the subject to blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se In order to unsubscribe, send a mail with the single word unsubscribe as the subject to the appropriate address (blakes7-request or blakes7-d-request). To change from one form to the other, unsubscribe from one and subscribe to the other. For the mail to be processed by the automatic server, its subject line must not start with "Re:". If it does, the server will just pass it on to the maintainer. *** DON'T SEND HTML-GARBAGE TO THE LISTBOT! *** HTML is for web pages, not mail. The listbot reads mail, not web pages. -- Calle Dybedahl, UNIX Sysadmin qdtcall@esavionics.se http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:24:59 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Message-ID: <002401bda465$2ae450a0$fc4895c1@orac> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Tom Forsyth >Edith S wrote: >> P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who >> played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. > >Yes indeed - "Avon: A Terrible Aspect". Proclaimed by all who have read it >as utter tosh. And nothing like the Avon we know, either. The general >advice seems to be that your mother was (1) right (I seem to remember >references to a rape scene?) and (2) acting in the best interests of your >literary upbringing anyway. I just had another look and I think (1) is open to interpretation actually. I am assuming that this refers to an early scene when Avon senior deflowers a young girl while her mother lies semi-conscious in the next bed. I can't lay my hands on the book right now because it is in the next room where sprog is sleeping, but I seem to recall that the heroine says something like " I didn't object when he removed my shift..." then goes on to "I had never been loved before and would never again be loved so well" OK, awful prose but that doesn't make it non-consensual. IRL it would probably cause a few righteous tut-tuts - a man of his age etc. etc., but it hardly reads like rape. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jul 1998 08:17:28 +1000 From: "Afenech" To: Subject: [B7L] Re: Ah, sweet love on Liberator Message-Id: <22100549092257@domain2.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello everyone - smile - Edith asked: > Was it possible for Blake to have loved anyone other than his cause? Demonstrably he could, I think, though as Kathryn wondered it depends perhaps on what sort of love we are talking about. If considered in a general way then there is evidence enough that Blake loved particularly - he loved his brother and sister, after he had become a resistance leader, enough to risk committing a Category Four crime by going outside the dome to hear news of them. Also he clearly was *very* fond of Ushton and Inga -smile - His crew? well I suppose it depends upon how you interpret the evidence, or your perception of Blake . He turned the liberator back into danger and went himself to rescue Cally. He threatened Del Grant he would come after him personally if Grant was responsible for anything happening to Avon. He mourned Gan. If you perceive nothing but fanatical adherence to 'the cause' in Blake then these actions might be interpreted as just his attempts to keep a useful crew together. But... to my eyes there is a great deal of warmth of spirit about Blake which never suggests to me an indifference to his fellow beings, just the opposite. He cares that the generality is oppressed and he also cares for those who are closest to him. As for the enigmatic one... Edith also asked: 'Did Avon truly love Anna...' How can it be doubted that he loved Anna - if she had been a trophy glamorised by unavailability anyone so pragmatic as Avon would have cut his losses when she was lost to him irrevocably. But that is not what he does. Instead he remembers and finally endures five, five! days of Federation torture just in the hope that it'll finally bring Shrinker to him and allow him the opportunity for vengence on her behalf. If this is not a suggestion love in this self-proclaimed I look after myself, first last and always Avon I wonder what it might be? Did he love the crew - smile - ah well, there are many sorts of love but very probably he did, in his own particular way, on and off - smile - It seems to me that someone who platitudinises about sentiment being the death of you if allowed to influence rational judgement might very likely be prone to it, rather than the opposite. If he was as unsentimental as he likes to suggest he would not give it much thought perhaps? Nor would he - the ever cautious usually - try so hard to dissuade them from the dangers he realised he was going into in 'Rumours...' and 'Terminal'. He is determined to brave these dangers alone, which is suggestive, to me anyway. As Kathryn pointed out he tells Vila to leave him on Terminal rather than let Servalan have Liberator where he supposed the crew to be, safe, and more it is the threat to kill Tarrant which stops him attcaking Servalan - I think - tho' memory is a bit hazy here. With Avon its everthe actions which are more illuminating than the words - smile - But again, it depends on interpretation of the evidence, what seems to suggest caring to me, can suggest just the opposite. I have read enough fan fiction to know this right well - smile - Perhaps the complete answer to all of it lies in 'Rescue'. Dorian's plan was formed about the understanding of the bonds between them all forged from all they had shared? The feelings between them all are understated as becomes a story in the British tradition but they are clear enough, well I think so - smile - Pat Fenech ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 21:45:27 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Ah, sweet love on Liberator Message-ID: <003301bda468$0862f920$fc4895c1@orac> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >On Mon, Jun 29, 1998 at 11:28:13PM -0700, Edith Spencer wrote: > >> Was it possible for Blake to have loved anyone other than his cause? >The impression I get was - no. Cause came first. > >> Cally and Jenna- Would these two women put up with A, B or Vila? I just watched some early episodes again and two things which struck me: (1) In Cygnus Alpha when Blake returns safely after the first teleport experiment, Jenna positively _flings_ herself at him and gives him a big hug, saying "We were so worried". A bit of a girly reaction I would say unless she had actually started to form an attachment to him. (2) In Time Squad, it seems to me that from the first moment Avon saw Cally he liked what he saw. I saw it for the nth time on Saturday and this was the first time it really struck me - he never takes his eyes off her. My theory is that as until then Jenna was the only woman in the crew then, if the hypothesis in (1) is correct, another woman aboard the Liberator would be of more than passing interest. Avon would probably assume (and rightly) that his chances of impressing the new arrival were greater than those of Vila or Gan, so of course he would be interested. I don't mean to make Avon sound shallow (heaven forbid!). I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that says when Avon loves he REALLY loves. Also I think that as he got to know her better he held Cally in very high regard and probably viewed her as more of an equal than almost anyone else in the crew. But initially maybe he was after something a bit more recreational. And hey where's the harm in that - the boy had had a hard time! Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 18:59:22 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Julie Horner CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] a reply to the post about Guilt Message-ID: <359997F9.3F7@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie Horner wrote: > > From: Tom Forsyth > > >Edith S wrote: > >> P.S. I seem to remember,sorta, that there was a book by the actor who > >> played Avon on the series. I think I read, once. > > > > >Yes indeed - "Avon: A Terrible Aspect". Proclaimed by all who have read it > >as utter tosh. And nothing like the Avon we know, either. The general > >advice seems to be that your mother was (1) right (I seem to remember > >references to a rape scene?) and (2) acting in the best interests of your > >literary upbringing anyway. > > I just had another look and I think (1) is open to interpretation actually. > > I am assuming that this refers to an early scene when Avon senior > deflowers a young girl while her mother lies semi-conscious in the > next bed. > > I can't lay my hands on the book right now because it is in the next room > where sprog is sleeping, but I seem to recall that the heroine > says something like " I didn't object when he removed my shift..." > then goes on to "I had never been loved before and would never again be > loved so well" > > OK, awful prose but that doesn't make it non-consensual. > IRL it would probably cause a few righteous tut-tuts - a man of > his age etc. etc., but it hardly reads like rape. No, I remember the rape scene-- that part wasn't too graphic, the rape, that is, but the rest of it was pretty spine chilling. One of the bad guys, Sabbat, had been rejected by Rowena (Avon's mom, a real nutcase) and held a grudge-- when he was given the go ahead to move against the family, Avon's stepfather was killed after being told his life would be spared if he didn't protest. Rowena was raped, then murdered, and Anna, her stepdaughter watched on, giggling, because she was utterly stoned-- I thought the worst part of the book as far as characterization went was making Anna a not-too-bright drug addict. It's hard to reconcile that with the intelligent, focussed woman we saw in the series. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #180 **************************************