From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #184 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/184 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 184 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re: Flag waving [B7L] Re: flag waving Re: [B7L] Re: Flag waving [B7L] Eeek! Sorry to USA-ers. [B7L] test only - delete me [B7L] Re: Flag waving Re: [B7L] Eeek! Sorry to USA-ers. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 98 08:42:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Flag waving Message-Id: <199807050851.IAA29309@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kathryn Andersen said: >Actually, believe it or not, our education system is very good. Not >as good as it *was*, but from my personal experience of both the US >system and the Australian system, the Australian one is better. Of >course that's only a sample-size of one. But certainly our >universities are world-class, otherwise why would be be getting all >those (paying) foriegn students? Kathryn, my own opinion of the Australian educational system has plummetted over the past couple of years as a direct result of posts to this very list. Over and over, we've seen posts from Aussies that displayed grotesque ignorance of basic historical facts, and of the world outside Australia. Not to mention basic reading comprehension! Do you remember, Kathryn, a certain fellow-contrywoman of yours who believed that the way to summarize someone else's post was to snip out a word here and a word there, so as to reverse the meaning? She stated that she considered herself one of the educated Australians, and claimed to have attended one of your more prestigious universities. If that's true, then the school in question has much lower standards than I would have imagined given its generally good reputation. Perhaps the foreign students attending it just wanted an English-speaking university and couldn't get into-- or couldn't afford-- an American or British one? I was also informed by someone else on this list that my Australian acquaintances in the academic world, well-educated and courteous people who wouldn't dream of shrieking racist filth and lies at people of other nationalities, are "bland" and are not true Australians. I say shame, shame, shame on the University of Adelaide for promoting the idea that dishonesty and xenophobia are somehow intrinsic to the Australian character. (By the way, is that an accredited institution? And who funds it? If it's a public institution, are the people whose taxes pay for it aware of what's being taught there?) >Here here! And when you mutter to yourself, "I wish someone would >bloody shut miz bloody Pauline-bigot-Hanson up," remember that that is >the price of freedom. Even the hate-mongering Pauline Hansons are >allowed a voice. (As they would be in America also) Isn't it interesting that some Aussies think it's fun to twit Americans about the racist activities of the criminal underground here, while pretending that Pauline Hanson and her One Nation party-- above-ground, politically active, overt racists of a kind we haven't seen here in thirty years-- don't exist? Anyone who peruses the archives of this list starting about two years ago can see many examples of what I'm talking about. The question is, are those Aussies ignorant of what is going on in their own country? Or are they merely xenophobes who think it is clever to ascribe their own problems to someone else, pretending that those problems are something far away and unrelated to them? Either way, your educational system has done a very poor job of preparing them for life in the modern world. I do realize that all the nonsensical ugliness we Americans have put up with on this list is coming from a handful of individuals of questionable mental stability. Nevertheless, the fact that they themselves like to harp on how educated they allegedly are suggests that the schools they attended are to some extent at fault. >One of the things I appreciate about the Australian system is that >compulsory voting prevents the issues being hijacked by extremists. >Oh, we've got the extremists here, but they aren't represented >disproportionately. People just vote the way they usually vote, but >at least that makes for more stability of government. As an American, I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of compulsory voting. Being told "You must vote" sounds much too close to "You must vote for So-and-so." And how on earth is it enforced? What happens if someone refuses to vote? Do they go to jail for it? Suppose you don't like any of the candidates? Must you vote in every single local election, however trivial? If you are abroad or even just out of your voting district, must you make arrangements to vote absentee? What happens if you forget? I would also think that this system would give incumbents even more of an advantage than they already have, since the people who don't really care about the issues and wouldn't vote if they weren't forced to will take the path of least resistance and vote for whoever is already in. Does it work out that way, or not? And, er, 23% of Queensland's vote-- with everyone voting-- for an overtly racist political party is not disproportionate?? That's pretty scary. For comparison, George Wallace only attracted about 12% of those who bothered to vote at all when he ran for President on a segregationist platform, way back in 1968. We haven't had anything remotely comparable in national politics since then; and Wallace himself reformed and changed his views in later life. I can think of lots of things that I don't like about the U.S. of A., but even more that I don't like about every other country I've ever visited, or met people from-- which at this point in my life is a good many. On the whole I'm extremely glad that I was born here, and that 223 years ago my ancestors (and the spiritual ancestors of all Americans, regardless of genetics) decided to do take action and do something decisive about a situation they didn't like, rather than sitting around and whining about it. ObB7 (is that the abbreviation for Obligatory B7 Reference?): the thing I most admire about Blake is that he had the guts to get up and do something about the situation, even if his actions were not as well-considered as they might have been. Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 10:16:22 -0400 (EDT) From: brent@ntr.net To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: flag waving Message-Id: <199807051416.KAA26481@rome.ntr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Edith Spencer wrote: > To all- > Over here in the United States of America, we will be doing our bit >of patriotic flag waving tomorrow- a time of picnics, music, beer and >fireworks being done by those who are fortunate enough to be off. >I had put out a post stating that our(USA) patriotism and spirituality >seemed a bit shallow, considering many of the problems that we have in >the States ( no universal single payer health care, bad support of >teachers, lack of funding for the arts)and that it seemed grimly >reflected in B7's world. I don't know if we see enough of B7's earth in The Way Back to make such a comparison, so I can't comment on the B7 aspect (and remember, after The Way Back, the denizens of earth weren't portrayed in this way again until the beginning of Warlord--but I could be wrong). As for the three problems you cited, the poor state of health care is to be totally expected. Americans are a pathetically sorry lot in regards to how we take care of ourselves. Most of us eat crap, most of us breathe crap (smoking both actively and passively, as well as breathing copious amounts of pollution), and most of us subject ourselves to crappy conditions everyday (lack of proper sleep, unnecessary stress, indiscriminant, unprotected sexual liaisons, unsafe work conditions, etc.), yet we are surprised when our bodies turn to crap by developing heart diseases, cancers, STDs, and the like. Once we develop health problems (most of which are entirely PREVENTABLE by us) we turn to an overly taxed governmental health-care system to save us. As for low pay for teachers, we get what we pay for. The government doesn't fund our various leisurely pursuits (like sports, films, music, etc.--all of which are multi-billion dollar-a-year industries), we pay for these things which means Michael Jordan gets paid millions a year while the ones who are socializing and teaching our kids are paid around $50,000 a year (or is that too liberal a guess? I think it is much, much lower). We spend money on crap, but we ask the government to save our children's education. Ah yes, and lack of funding for the arts. Why should the government pay people to pursue art? HOW can the government be asked to pay people to pursue art when what art *is* can be subject to so much scrutiny? Abuse is written all over such a system as the National Endowment for the Arts which enables things like the infamous Piss Christ (a crucifix submerged in urine) to be funded with people's taxes. Sorry, but this is simply not art, a quasi-religious statement perhaps, but not art. True artists will produce art whether or not they get funding from the government. My wife is a painter and I am a writer, we have never sought government funding for our pursuits. I totally agree that our patriotism and spirituality is shallow. So shallow it would be impossible to drown in. >From: Taina Nieminen >My comments are obviously biased from having lived all my life in >Australia, where we have free/subsidised health care available to >everybody who needs it, a solid welfare system, a very minor homeless >problem compared to the US, a so-so education system (but without the >problems of children regularly taking guns to school), and even arts >funding. A veritable utopia now, but add 230,000,000 people and see how well all those needs are taken care of. A couple hundred million *individuals* can really screw up a government "for the people by the people." One of America's many problems is our over-bloated bureaucracy which wastes billions of dollars that could be better spent addressing some of our major problems. Kids taking guns to school? The people see this as a problem the government needs to address, so a commission is formed, thus wasting more tax-payer money on a problem that would be better addressed on a community-level. But communities are made up of a lot of individuals that don't want to waste their time with such trivialities. Well, gotta go. Just bought a lot of firecrackers I want to blow up :-\ Brent: Cynical Bastard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 08:49:51 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Flag waving Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun 05 Jul, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > > The question is, what was Blake fighting for, exactly? Everyone was > > > drugged and dulled, but fed and perhaps reasonably taken care of. > > > > Being drugged and dulled attacks what I would call a fundamental right > > of people to be themselves. The right to think your own thoughts, feel > > your own feelings is much more fundamental than any right to express > > them. A drugged Federation resident would not even be able to decide > > whether they'd rather be drugged and well-fed, or free and have to > > struggle for existence. As for myself, I'd rather be free and not well > > taken care off (but then, I've never been in a situation where I haven't > > been well taken care off). > > Gan: Is there a defense against IMIPAK? > Avon: Of course there is. It's called slavery. > (Blake's 7: Weapon [B3]) I think one of Blake's primary motivations was a belief in individual freedom, but it's important to remember that there were many other issues too. Because so many think took place off-stage, it's very easy to foget things like Federation massacres and deportations on Saurian Major. When a government sells the families of deserters into slavery and postpones the trial of a man guilty of massacring civilians for many years, then there is more than just freedom of speech at stake. Loss of freedom of speech is usually the most visible sign of a government that is doing many other things deletrious to the population. THere's a full list of Federation atrocities on my web page in the essay section. If you read that, then you'll know what Blake was fighting for. There's also a batch of updates on other sections of the page. More zines, some fairly new quizes, a rather lovely CGI Liberator in the gallery, etc. Judith PS. Has anyone got a good photo of David Walsh? I want a picture of him as Servalan for the Redemption web page. He'll be performing in the cabaret and also doing a panel session so that people can ask him questions. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 05 Jul 1998 11:48:09 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Eeek! Sorry to USA-ers. Message-ID: <19980705184810.21615.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain To my fellow American citizens on the list: Oh dear, I have seemed to have stirred up quite a nest here, and it was done without any forethought at all. I again apologize if you read any insults in my original post- it was musing on my part; an attempt to make a B7 post topical with the season. Since my parents were immigrants to this country, I know far too well how much better they are to be here. ( The Caribbean is an incredibly beautiful place, filled with history. It is also astonishingly poor and very hard for people of a certain class/color to have a place of one's own.) As I have only been a student in Europe, I can speak for other living conditions; some are considerably worse, some are better. Since those countries have a different history, that is to be expected. And since I have only an outsiders view of Aussie Nationalism and no experince with some of the Aussies mentioned on list, I cannot trully speak to that. It is just my belief that we, as American citizens, should try to do bettter than the sum of our wonderful parts. Again, the overly earnest 24 year old.. As for the post by Brent, I do agree, many of things we do to ourselves; but since the government in USA is for the people, by the people, we should ask, no, demand that our laws do not allow for the harm of people by environmental causes. And your (often quoted) Piss Christ example is an aberration; I had a childhood acquaintance who was and still is a talented dancer and had a knack for history. We were both students at dance academies that were funded at the local level. He got into shows, I got into chemistry. The point ? Arts funding helps artists in a community share their talent and vision with others, and that is a good thing. And it is not not all abuse by the agency that you speak of; the agency has granted funding to alot of works that are truly touching and moving; works that make the spirit soar. Does that mean we should depend on the government to tell us what is in good taste? No. Like I said, the government is of the people, and if the people think it is crap, they will not speak of it nor go to see it. The point(s) behind my original post then, were to explore issues of dependence. If people depend on being drugged, being nulled and beinmg told what to think, will they shke off that dependence- especially if technology is concerned? And was this what Blake was fighting for? Were these issues addressed in the series? So please, take no offense! Edith Spencer ( Boy, is it hot in here...) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 12:03:45 GMT From: Roger the Shrubber To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] test only - delete me Message-Id: <199807061203.MAA31735@axis.jeack.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is a test sorry sorry sorry ___________________________________ from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome ! powerplay@cheerful.com ____________________________________ "OK, here's a disc sander, maybe ratchet up the manliness just a tad." ______________________________________ "The Administration is out to get me" _______________________________________ "In the end, winning is the only safety" _________________________________________ "We are concerned obviously about any accidents of a lesbian running over a Christian person standing on the roadway" ________________________________________ ________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634 Anxiety & Panic _________________________________________ http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 5 Jul 1998 21:51:33 -0700 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Flag waving Message-ID: In message <199807050851.IAA29309@rock103.genie.net>, s.thompson8@genie.geis.com writes >As an American, I feel very uncomfortable with the idea of compulsory >voting. Being told "You must vote" sounds much too close to "You must vote >for So-and-so." And how on earth is it enforced? What happens if someone >refuses to vote? Do they go to jail for it? Suppose you don't like any of >the candidates? Must you vote in every single local election, however >trivial? If you are abroad or even just out of your voting district, must >you make arrangements to vote absentee? What happens if you forget? > You must vote in elections for national and IIRC state governments. As in, you must attend the polling station (or make proxy/postal arrangements) and put a form into the box. Or go to jail, although this would only be done if someone was fairly blatent about it being deliberate, rather than an oversight. On the other hand, since Australia has a genuinely secret ballot, unlike the UK, nobody's going to know if you were the one who wrote "none of the above" across your ballot paper. *This actually happened*. The Tasmanian referendum on damming the Gordon River offered two options - the more destructive dam site, and the less destructive dam site. Lots of people who wanted the "no dam" option wrote that on their ballot paper, as part of an organised campaign. The Tasmanian state government, which was using the issue to flex its muscles at Canberra, then proceeded to say "Oh, we'll count those votes after all - oh dear, what a pity, less than a third of you voted for that so we'll go for the dam option", carefully ignoring the fact that many ant-dam voters had voted for the less environmentally damaging of the two dam options out of fear that a "no dams" vote would be ignored. Another factor to remember is that Australia uses various forms of the transferable vote system (note to Ukers - this is *not* proportional representation). This in combination with compulsory voting and proper education at school about the political system tends to result in a government that is a reasonable reflection of who is acceptable to the voters at large, unless you live in Queensland. Or did, when I lived there. What it's like now I wouldn't know. Before the Queenslanders get upset with me - *any* voting system is going to be seen as unfair when it is gerrymandered so that voting destricts in areas that vote National Country party have twenty percent smaller electorates than voting districts that vote Liberal Party. And they didn't change it when they changed their name. -- Julia Jones ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jul 1998 07:13:04 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Eeek! Sorry to USA-ers. Message-ID: <4c1905a4.35a0b141@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Edith; Please do not feel you have to apologize for your posting about July the Fourth. While I did not agree with your postings completely, the point of even celebrating the holiday lies in the fact that our anscestors earned the right to make a public stand on any issue they pleased. Over the generations, this right has been extended to a larger proportion of the population. While I may disagree with some of your statements, it is impossible for either of us to grow in wisdom unless we are able to look at issues from other angles. I have sometimes found my convictions re-affirmed by this process, at other times I have changed my viewpoint. This is part of the process of living. Blind patriotism, " America, love it or leave it", is as stupid and dangerous a concept as someone who berates the American system, but can find no flaw in an opposing philosophy. One of the great things about this list is that the people on it have both the integrity and the intellect to reject the "easy" stands, and agree or disagree, will hear you out. So keep up the postings! D. Rose -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #184 **************************************