From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #189 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/189 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 189 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Blake (was Flag waving) [B7L] Lost in Space - fame at last [B7L] Re Shopping for vids [B7L] Re Happy endings Re: [B7L] Happy endings [B7L] Re: Dead or Alive Re: [B7L] Happy endings [B7L] Lost in Space [B7L] Lost in Space [B7L] Lost in Space Re: [B7L] Re Happy endings Re: [B7L] Lost in Space Re: [B7L] Blake (was Flag waving) [B7L] blakes7-d Digest V98 #188 Re: [B7L] Re: Dead or Alive ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 03:53:00 GMT From: kminne@camtech.net.au (Ken Minne) To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake (was Flag waving) Message-ID: <35a66a15.4590843@mail.camtech.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Good day all, On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 15:02:40 +0100, Dangermouse wrote: > > >---------- >> From: Susan Clerc >> > So, was the Resistance lying? Were they desperate enough to >fabricate the >> > story in order to get back their figurehead? The alternative >explanation is >> > that Blake's family met with an accidental death, or were later >executed for >> > "crimes" committed after transport. Any comments? >D. Rose >> >> 2. His family was killed and Blake knew it before the mindwipe, that's >why >> the Federation gave him the forged tapes to suppress the memory. Being >off >> the drugged food and water, meeting Foster again, and seeing the massacre >> overcame the conditioning and he remembered everything the Federation had >> tried to make him forget. > >I find it unlikely that they were transported to a colony then killed. The >Federation is efficient enough at making people disappear on Earth, so why >go to all the trouble of moving them somewhere else just to kill them? > >It's likely then, that both the Federation and Foster lied (or were in >error) about what really happened to them... > The Federation appears to have been a huge beaucratic government, riddled with factions and divisions. Some areas of civil and military organsisation appear to have been run under the rule of law, by people who genuinely beleived in the system. ( Blake's Lawyer, and some of the military for example ) The Federation can not have hoped to have destroyed Blake by rigging his "fair" trial if no one took their trials seriously. I suspect that quite a large part of the Federation government structure actually operated quite legitimately, though largely in ignorance of the actions of the corrrupt and powerful, such as Servelan. Therefore, I think it would be quite possible for there to have been a legitimate resettlement program for the relatives of "ordinary" dissidents ( though probably lining someones pockets along the way, eg forced colonists, maybe outright slavery which we know did exist ). The killing of Blake's relatives would have been organised by the Presidential Council to clean up after an apperance of the due process having been carried out. Naturally, anyone who got two close to uncovering the truth met with a fatal accident .... >;-) Catch you later, Walter Minne ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 05:50:07 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] Lost in Space - fame at last Message-ID: <199807100550_MC2-52BA-80A2@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We got a name-check in the Guardian, Times and Independent TV listings today (but not the Telegraph - boo!). Friday, 7.15 p.m., remember, everyone who can get near a TV showing BBC 2. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:55:35 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re Shopping for vids Message-Id: <798115813MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> Walter asked: "Could some of our English list members suggest the most likely stores or retail outlets for obtaining the Fabulous Films Blakes Seven videos?" On New Oxford Street, London (near Tottenham Court Road underground station) is a sci fi shop called Forbidden Planet. The video department downstairs has the full set on sale at the moment. Also near TCR station on Oxford Street is Virgin Megastore. Their video department, also downstairs, has some of the tapes. If both these fail, stroll down Oxford Street until you reach HMV (on the right) and try their video department upstairs. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:05:08 +0100 GMT From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re Happy endings Message-Id: <798115958MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk> >>> Ray said: "Tarrant: Dead. He was in bad shape already, so >>> I doubt he could have survived." >> I said: "Oh I agree, but that's just wishful thinking. >> Although I thought he was in bad shape the first episode he >> appeared in." > Hanneke said: "Stop it, Steve, or else I'll stop sending you > Tarrant clones to abuse." You haven't sent me one for ages anyway. The last one's gone mouldy. cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 12:27:10 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Happy endings Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Iain said: >As with "King Lear", what makes the end of "Blake" shocking is not that >people die, but that the standard dramatic structures with make the >hero's death meaningful are removed. There "should" have been a final >showdown with Servalan, where our heroes might die but they take the evil >empress with them, destroying the Federation, and their names live on in >the new age of peace and plenty. The real ending gains its power from the >fact that this comfortable resolution is denied. Spot on. I remember showing 'Blake' to a group of uni friends: we'd spent about a week intensively watching as much of B7 as I had on tape so that they could get to the final episode as quickly as possible. Stunned horror and disbelief afterwards, followed by the incoherent gabble of outraged females. One comment was very striking: a friend said that what was so terrible was not just its inevitability, but also the fact that it was such a tawdry way for the story to end, with our heroes gunned down in the space of a few minutes on a backwater, nothing planet. Deborah said: >I'm not sure of the nationalities of all the respondants, but it seems to >me that there is a bit more pessimism on the other side of the lake. Are >Americans more optimistic? Is there something in the British character >that is inately pessimistic? Well, you would be too if you lived here! ;) Alison said: >I guess it would be quite easy to relate this difference to the economic >and historical positions of the two parts of the world: expansionist and >contractionist. > >It will be interesting to see if there is any change in this pattern as >societies change over time. So when the Empire was at its heights (or when it was growing), we would have heard a more optimistic 'Britishness' being expressed? And a similar sort of thing in the Elizabethan period? So what we need is a good couple of expansionist wars and a few successful invasions and we'll be all chirpy again this side of the pond! (Either that, or have a little more sporting success...) To bump up your stats a little, Deborah, (and support your hypothesis!): I think they all die. (Even if I've written about some of the surviving. But then I only chose the ones that you could sensibly get away with: Avon (who we don't see fall) and Vila (who does that funny little pirouette). The rest of them: dodoed for sure). Una -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The pre-menstrual historian: 'It's NOT my period!' -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064 Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701 Cambridge CB2 1AG http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una United Kingdom http://www.jims.cam.ac.uk/research/ion/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 11:11:03 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Dead or Alive Message-ID: <199807101111_MC2-52C2-BD2C@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Deborah wrote: >There've been over a dozen responses that I've tracked >on this topic (GP; Dead or Alive), and so far I track at least >5 'all deads', with 5 that having some or all the crew >surviving. (2 posts never answered the question, dealing >with other aspects of the topic). Oh, sorry. On original viewing in 1980, I assumed everyone was dead. I later browsed through some BBC publication or other in a bookshop which stated that Blake was definitely dead, Avon was definitely alive but mad, and everyone else was up for grabs. I remember being extremely annoyed at the idea of anyone surviving what had struck me as a perfect ending, but I gradually came to regard this information as "official" and revised my PGP scenario to include Avon (and occasionally Vila) as survivors (as well as Servalan and Orac). Having read various supposedly "authorised" publications, I have now reverted to extreme scepticism about their statements on the subject, so ought to have reverted to my original certainty that they were dead. For fanfictional purposes, however, it's very difficult not to keep Avon going. For purposes of analysis, I hold a British passport. (I was born here to, but for some reason recoil from statements of nationality.) Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 01:04:13 +1000 From: "Katrina Harkess" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Happy endings Message-Id: <199807101735.DAA24228@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >On Wed, 8 Jul 1998 AChevron@aol.com wrote: > > > >> This thread has me wondering. How many people think that our heroes > >> "really" died on GP, even if that's not the ending you would have wanted? > How > >> many believe they all lived? That might determine if the "happy ending" > folks > >> are really in the minority. D. Rose > >> Yes (dead): Dayna, Tarrant, Blake, Avon No: Soolin, Vila, Orac, Slave [Sorry, can't help putting the computers in] Katrina. PS. this is what happened in my PGP novella that has yet to get past the first draft. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 14:37:29 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] Lost in Space Message-ID: <199807101438_MC2-52CA-D2EB@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Finally saw it - though I was too agitated by problems with the tape I was using to record it to take it all in. I think I've got the last 13 minutes anyway, and as far as I could see everyone came over very well. Look forward to re-viewing shortly. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:50:06 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Lost in Space Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Massive sigh of relief! I thought he'd do us fair and he did. That was a pretty good treatment of Blake's 7 fandom, the appeal of the show and the things it has inspired people to create. Isn't it wonderful to have fandom treated as a group of interesting people rather than as a bunch of wierdos! Judith PS. I had to laugh at the timing of one of Una's comments. I don't think the editor realised the implications of a comment about the sexual relations between the crew straight after a shot of Blake and Avon! -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 21:05:56 +0200 From: "Nelly Meijerink" To: Subject: [B7L] Lost in Space Message-Id: <199807101918.VAA29727@Njord.bart.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Loved every second of it A thank you to all the interviewees You were great! And it was only 15 minutes Nelly ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 23:50:14 +0200 From: "Hanneke" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Happy endings Message-Id: All died, except for Avon. And Steve said: > >>> Ray said: "Tarrant: Dead. He was in bad shape already, so > >>> I doubt he could have survived." > > >> I said: "Oh I agree, but that's just wishful thinking. > >> Although I thought he was in bad shape the first episode he > >> appeared in." > > > Hanneke said: "Stop it, Steve, or else I'll stop sending you > > Tarrant clones to abuse." > > You haven't sent me one for ages anyway. The last one's gone > mouldy. Hm. I suppose you didn't keep it in a warm and dry place, now did you? But all right, send it back, and I'll replace it. :)) Hanneke ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:17:24 +0200 From: "Hanneke" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Lost in Space Message-Id: Loved it! It was definitely the best in the whole series. Now we Dutch people better start nagging some broadcast companies over here. I want both the original and the subtitled version on tape. :)) Hanneke ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 19:35:54 -0400 From: DJ Wight To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake (was Flag waving) Message-ID: <199807101936_MC2-52CE-4D42@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Judith writes, > Yes, I think Blake has a definite awareness of history. > Hard to say where I get it from, but it's a combination of > little details like knowing about churches and saying to > Sarkoff that he'd studied natural history. Churches, 700-year old Wanderer class spaceships, hints of the history of Terran colonization (Destiny) and Lord Jeffrey Ashley and the smallpox-infested blankets. The diversity of historical things Blake knows something about suggests an interest that seems to me likely to have been beyond the norm for his time. This about equally based on my impression that he's the only person around who possesses such an interest, and my sense of history being such a dangerous subject for anyone wanting to maintain control of a population, that I can't imagine the Federation promoting any awareness of it, beyond propagandizing for its own era. I don't know that either notion is defensible, but the impression holds. >> opening an infinite set of questions about the >> society and personal experience which created >> him...most of which seem mostly unanswerable. > You can get answers to a lot of these, but only by studying > episodes in fine detail. The scary part is that I can feel this on its way to becoming inevitable. No question these all help to show the character of the regime. For me, the problem breaks down into...let's see, here. Off the cuff, - Mapping when it did and didn't bother to hide its character. Eg., open with the people on Albion regarding the solium device, vs. covert with the Lindor Strategy. - Gauging opportunities available to the oppressed, to get the word out about about it. They did manage. The rebels on Albion did make contact with Del Grant, those on Saurian Major asked for help from Auron, Avalon had plenty of contacts, and Foster made it pretty clear there was some sort of grapevine working between Earth and the Outer Planets. - Tracing the way the oppression escalates over time. The basic attitudes of disrespect for human life and indifference to individual interests had to be there all along, but there seems a world of difference between Secretary Rontane in S-L-D pussyfooting around the issue of controllers whose loyalty to the Federation was,"uh, delicately balanced," and 'Commissioner Sleer' being turned loose to poison whole populations with Pylene 50. Makes a big difference to how I cut my assumptions about how Blake might have come a rebel in the first place, depending on whether I begin by assuming these networks had ways of getting the word out about what was happening to people, and proving it, at, above, or below the normal level of credibility for the character in his unspoiled state. > What we saw on screen was biased towards the military > because Servalan was leading th hunt for Blake. However, > the fact that troopers appear in situations where we might > have expected civilian police is indicative of how powerful and > widespread the military were. Thinking about the domed cities, the whole business of it being a crime to go outside, restrictions on travel, cameras in the halls, and so on---postulate the whole works, troops instead of police, and perhaps even the suppressants in the air and water as originally part of a "survival" response to nuclear holocaust or environmental disaster, and I'm not sure that the majority wouldn't have bought it when it was first imposed, and still be buying it a couple of hundred years later. People *should* be starting to become quizzical about it all by then, but possibly not, with a little chemical help. >> What illusions of freedom and democracy were fostered? > I think it was the undrugged alphas that everyone had to try > and keep happy and believing in the system. There was a > desire to at least make things look uncorrupt. > > WE have very few hints as to the type of government, but > even some people within hte government failed to realise > how great the corruption at the top was. Look at Governor > leGrand. (Voice from the Past). And Ven Glynd, of all people. Their naiveté never fails to dazzle me. Thinking about that government, part of my problem may be one of relating the Federation system to that of the Hegemony in "Agents of Chaos" (Norman Spinrad, cult classic from the late '60s). > My suspicion is that the system had worked > smoothly at one time and that an small clique had > gradually siezed power and gained a complete > stranglehold on hte upper levels of government. This is possible and seems a useful idea. Having yet to reach a point of coherent suspicion myself, can't comment. > There is a reference in one episode to Blake (pre-series) being > involved in attacks on rehabilitation centres, so he was certainly > an activist even in those days rather than just a theorist. Travis' reference in S-L-D. For me, working out his transition either from uninvolved innocent or theorist dissident to resistance fighter would have to include working out just how *little* he could know, to be motivated to mount his first attack, and trust what it revealed would carry him from there. > One of the reasons that I think the Federation was changing > for the worse is that both Blake and Foster did not expect > to be fired on if they surrendered. The system was actually > worse than they percieved it to be, and they already found it > bad enough to become active rebels. It's exactly this which makes me wonder so much what they were in a position to know. >> For me this adds the nightmare of sorting out how >> far his memory might still have been blocked at any point, and >> how he might have been experiencing that. It raises questions of >> the extent to which his persona ended up being a patchwork of >> real and implanted memories, and whether or not he ever >> recovered enough of his true self, or achieved a coherent enough >> patchwork, to feel he was 'all there'. > This is a large part of why I find Blake to be such a complex > and compelling character. I love to explore this kind of issue > in fan fiction. What can he truely know of himself? Does he > know what's real and what isn't? I think a lot could depend on what he knows or believes the technology used on him can do. > I think he sorted out a lot of it while he was on the London. > He was the only one of them who recognised the illusions > put out by Liberator's defence system for what they were. > He knew with conviction that his family were dead (I'm > assuming that it showed him family) and thus was > able to save Avon and Jenna. I'd agree that he's got a *lot* sorted out very early on. Again leaving aside the realities of '70s heroic action/adventure characters not usually being allowed to be psych cases, when Blake isn't under pressure or running possessed he's just too solid and likeable a soul, seems too emotionally healthy, for me not to think he's fine, all the pieces back together. It's only when I sit back and consider the 'facts' of his case (or re-watch "Voice From the Past") that I start feeling, 'waitaminute, there has to be more going on here'. > However, he still had bits of real memory surfacing at the > time of Seek-Locate-Destroy as he mentions it in connection > to Travis. He could have got that back earlier. Thinking Travis dead, he'd no reason to refer to him earlier. >> I can't help thinking (leaving aside all the >> real-world reasons why the character couldn't be either >> crazier or a more focused and effective rebel than he was) >> it might be as sound a reading to say that he only functioned as >> well as he did because the circumstances >> in which he found himself were relatively safe and simple. >> can we fairly call the challenges he had to face--- >> had to, rather than being able to choose or refuse them--- >> anything like as overwhelming as those he'd have faced >> if he were still trying to organize a mass rebellion on >> the ground anywhere? > I don't think he could have commanded loyalty from Avon > and the others if he hadn't been pretty much on the ball. > Avon's a pretty serious challenge in himself. He tries. No question Blake handles him superbly. If I were more wedded to this theory than my sense of proportion allows, I'd probably try to argue that dealing with one subordinate from hell called for a different set of skills than delivering an effective revolution would've done, but this *is* where the rubber hits the road, isn't it? >(BBC budget prevented him from meeting large masses > of rebels - I've been listening to 'Elements' and David > Maloney's comments on how he pre-edited the scripts to > reduce the number of extras. Highly recommended. > Available fom Sheelagh Wells - see my web page under > merchandise for details) It's a problem, these places where sustaining an analytical approach requires one begin by crazy-gluing disbelief to the ceiling. >> But then I wonder if the doubts he expresses in "Blake" >> aren't partly signs of his persona disintegrating. >> Perhaps of other, darker experiences opening up other >> aspects of his past and revealing him to himself as >> other than he and we have believed. > You could write a very interesting story using that as a basis. This hasn't been done? I'm amazed. Not immediately motivated---just amazed. >> Avon's easier to deal with, but by no means more complex. >> *Lord, no....* a whole different *order* of complexity. > And when you put them together they have to try and > deal with one another's complexities, which makes > for wonderful TV. Flaming miraculous. Cuddling porcupines. > I'd love to read a story that had your version of a > pre-series Blake. I've seen some that came close, but > don't have quite the same impact. Compared to what? Um, no, I don't actually think that's a serious question, just me being dazed. Partly the idea that anyone's got close. That would have to be an impressive achievement---which I don't think I want to know about. Whether I call it creative insecurity or simply not being able to afford the *time* for yet.one.more.obsession. God.help.me, I tend to stay as well clear of others' actual fanfic as I can. And it's at least as much a matter of being *tempted* but as a plodding-extrapolative writer, viewing the R&D effort required to work up from what amounts to a brief visual "flash" on Blake as he might have been, to a solid, fully realized character, clearly defined against his environment as quite staggering. --DJ angnak@compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:37:55, -0500 From: BCJC37A@prodigy.com ( ROSANNE POSTELNEK) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] blakes7-d Digest V98 #188 Message-Id: <199807110237.WAA19102@mime4.prodigy.com> I think that Avon, Vila, Orac, are alive for sure. Soolin, Tarrant, and Dayna may be. The Federation were using stun shots to get people alive. Blake is dead. Unless he got very fast medical treatment. Jenna is unknown, Blake could have been testing Tarrant about Jenna, he could have been telling the truth. Cally and Gan are dead. I like having them alive because I love 5th season stories. But that doesn't always mean I like the stories to be all sweetness and light. Rosie ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 07:47:23 +0100 From: "Alison Page" To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Dead or Alive Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Deborah wrote: > >There've been over a dozen responses that I've tracked > >on this topic (GP; Dead or Alive), and so far I track at least > >5 'all deads', with 5 that having some or all the crew > >surviving. Well I watched 'Lost In Space' (Hurrah!) with my 89 year old Nan. You might be interested in her take on 'Blake'. She's a sharp old lady, and her comment was that it reminds her of the silent films she used to watch in the 1920's. Such as the Perils of Pauline. I don't know if people know, but these films were shown as extended 'series' on subsequent Saturday afternoons a bit like a TV series. She said something along the lines of 'at the end they always seemed to be in a hopeless position, but when you went back to the cinema the next week we always found they survived'. This was her spontaneous comment, so Deborah you have one optimist on this side of the Atlantic, and probably the oldest person to express an opinion. Alison -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #189 **************************************