From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #252 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/252 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 252 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) [B7L] Did Vila need a protector? Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) [B7L] Avon, Gawain and Soolin Re: [B7L] Soolin/sorrowful news Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob [B7L] Re: Vila the drunk? Another reply Re: [B7L] Avon and gun Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob [B7L] Double standards (was Stuff from Rob) Re: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) [B7L] Re: most dreadful 1/2 page in the world [B7L] Re: Soolin [B7L] re: most dreadful 1/2 page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 04:20:11 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) Message-ID: <9579cb2.36172fbb@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Deborah wrote: > I've never really made my mind up on that one. I' sure Tarrant believes > it(I'm not as bewitched as you are by the smile:) but I've wondered about > Avon. This strikes me more as a throwback to the Gambit era, when they were > comfortable with one another and the little tricks they pulled on the others. > Avon simply rewarded Vila by allowing him the excuse out of work. The idea of Avon giving such a reward has me giggling. As Avon would say, to even suggest such a thing would mean you were on the wrong ship. I don't think I'm half as bewitched by the smile as you are by the nose. ;-) I have no problem admitting that Tarrant was fooled by Vila's act. > Vila doesn't think in the long- > term, it seems, and I rather suspect he has a nice long list of other ideas > to avoid something so mundane as real work Now that's a very perceptive observation that I *can* agree with. I'm going to roll that around the old brain cells and look for further evidence (which I expect to find) to corroborate it. I'm not comfortable unless I can cite more than one canonical reference for each essence I assign a character. A one- time behavior can all too often be an aberration. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:36:40 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) Message-ID: In message <9579cb2.36172fbb@aol.com>, Mac4781@aol.com writes >> Avon simply rewarded Vila by allowing him the excuse out of work. > > The idea of Avon giving such a reward has me giggling. As Avon >would say, to even suggest such a thing would mean you were on the wrong ship. >I don't think I'm half as bewitched by the smile as you are by the nose. ;-) >I have no problem admitting that Tarrant was fooled by Vila's act. Have you gotten around to watching the first two series yet, Godmother?:-) Given the A-V relationship in series 1 and 2, Deborah's suggestion *is* plausible in a situation where Vila probably isn't the best person for the job anyway. -- Julia Jones "One of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset someone wearing black leather" - Terry Pratchett, _The Last Continent_ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 04:53:26 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, Mac4781@aol.com Subject: [B7L] Did Vila need a protector? Message-ID: <19981004115326.5791.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >When did Avon protect Vila against Tarrant? Scolding Tarrant after >Vila had already gone to Keezarn wasn't offering much protection. >...I didn't see Vila regarding Avon as a protector in CITY, >or in any other episode. One of the most interesting Vila/Tarrant moments was in "Moloch". By then, Vila knew enough about Tarrant to face him directly without being intimidated, and without a third party interceding. I don't remember the details exactly, but Vila had met a fellow pisshead and preferred his company to Tarrant's. This irked Tarrant, who felt that Vila had more important work to do elsewhere. In the battle of wills that followed, Tarrant tried to intimidate Vila with his gun, and Vila just turned around, said "Bog off, Tarrant," and walked off. Correct me if my memory is faulty. To me, this confirms Vila's shrewdness and aptitude for survival. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:14:41 +1000 From: "Katrina Harkess" To: "B7" Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) Message-Id: <199810041216.WAA19656@extra.ucc.su.OZ.AU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Julia Jones > "One of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset > someone wearing black leather" - Terry Pratchett, _The Last Continent_ > Blake never followed that one. He upset everyone who wore black leather at some stage. [Fed - esp Travis, Avon, Tarrant...] Katrina. Who's just been away for a week and so hasn't been able to post - note to SC subscribers; the end of my PGP is now in my sights. I just have to figure out how to piece it all together. :P ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 06:17:57 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon, Gawain and Soolin Message-ID: <19981004131757.14868.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Carol opined: >As I've said before, I like all the characters. They are each very >remarkable and special individuals who contributed to the >fascinating mix of dynamics that makes the show so special for me. >I feel sorry for fans who can't appreciate each character's >contribution; it's like they only half a pie while I have the whole >thing. Ah, but you don't have to like a character to find him interesting. As I find out more about Avon, for example, I like him less and less. Anyone who leads a crew with a loaded gun, for whatever reason (Terminal), earns little respect or admiration from me. Avon's behaviour in "Rumours" reminds me of Gawain at the end of "Le Morte Darthur". For anyone who hasn't read the latter, let me give a brief summary. With Merlin's help, Uther Pendragon pretends he's Corlois, the Duke of Cornwall, kills Corlois and impregnates his wife. Arthur is born, and because he's the true-born king of England, he's able to pull the sword Excalibur out of a mysterious stone. He reconquers England and sets his throne up in Camelot. Then, for about 80-90% of the saga, his knights go off having weird and wonderful adventures in distant lands. You know the sort of thing, slaying overlords, marrying their daughters, fighting the "greatest battle that ever there was", "razing off" their opponent's "helm" and yielding to their appeals for mercy, enslaving mysterious dwarves and other assorted silliness. Then there's the Quest for the Holy Grail, when the whole character of the saga changes and becomes intensely evangelical. Lancelot and Gawain repent of their former sins, and the Grail is eventually found by Perceval, Bors and some other chap. (Someone remind me what his name was, please.) Anyway, after all this has happened, and the knights have returned to Arthur's court, the character of the story changes again, and becomes a deeply moving human tragedy. Lancelot goes back to his naughties with Guinevere within weeks of getting back, and a host of knights led by, I think, Agravain (a sort of medieval Ken Starr), catch him in the act. In the ensuing chaos, Lancelot accidentally kills Gawain's brother Gareth. Lancelot is exiled to France, but this is not enough for Gawain. For his own selfish ends, Gawain appeals to Arthur to send his army into France to capture and kill Lancelot. Arthur, broken by the public scandal with Guinevere, finally concedes and embarks on the expedition, leaving Mordred in charge of his throne. Through a series of misunderstandings or betrayals (depending on how you choose to interpret Mordred's actions), the news is spread throughout England that Arthur has been killed, and that Mordred is the new King. Arthur calls off his campaign and returns to England to face Mordred, who attempts to parley before the final battle takes place. Through another tragic twist of fate, the parley never happens and the two armies go into battle, annihilating each other. Devastated by the loss of their troops, Arthur and Mordred ignore the pleas of the surviving soldiers and kill each other. The point is, who brought all this about? First and foremost, it was Lancelot's enemies in Camelot. Gawain tried to defend Lancelot before Gareth was killed, but afterwards, in the name of vengeance, he joined up with Lancelot's enemies and set in motion a chain of events that killed Arthur and plunged the country into darkness. While Avon got away with his reckless and purely selfish attack on Servalan's power base, I still can't ignore the fact that he was playing into the hands of the newly formed Federation, and abusing the trust and loyalty of his crew. The Anna/Avon/Blake relationship is fascinating and absorbing, but I'll reiterate that it still doesn't make Avon likeable! Anyway, on to Soolin... >Other evidence of Soolin becoming a team player is her role in >returning Zeeona to Tarrant. I would not expect Soolin to naturally >play the role of matchmaker (which provided the inspiration for my >Party Piece on Space-City). For her to do that indicates that she's >becoming involved with her shipmates' lives. Except that she wasn't doing it for Tarrant -- her interactions with Zeeona and her attitude towards Zukan revealed to me that she was acting on Zeeona's behalf rather than Tarrant's. Soolin is someone who detests injustice and and sees through BS more astutely than anyone else in B7, with the possible exception of Blake. This came home in "Assassin", when she went against the grain of the rest of her crew and paid more attention to Nebrox, who deserved it, than that other silly moo, who didn't. In "Blake", Soolin's line "So were they -- eventually" suggests someone who is willing to shut up and wait while she formulates her plan of action. You can imagine her doing nothing for years and years, just waiting for the right moment. Never forgetting what she intends to do -- just slowly accumulating information and expertise in order to right the wrong that was done to her. I think she was a crusader at heart -- her fury at Avon at the end of "Gold" gives us rare insight into just how much she despised the Federation. This all contributes to my picture of how a post-GP Soolin would have behaved. (1) She would have waited until she had enough power and influence within the crew, and wrested the leadership from Avon. Avon may or may not have conceded it willingly -- but he would have been placed in a position where he had no choice. (2) She would have gone after the Federation with Blake's passion, combined with Avon's pragmatism. (3) Under no circumstances whatsoever would she have looked upon Avon as anything other than a petulant member of her crew. If she had taken a lover, it would have been someone made out of quite different material to Avon. >She's definitely very reserved, very private. But I like that. Do you know, Carol, you show remarkably good taste from time to time. Cheers, -- Rob PS Apols, Carol, and anyone else I've done this to, for posting you two copies of my last message. Sometimes I forget to delete the original sender's name from the reply list, and two copies of the same message end up in their mailbox. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 06:29:25 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin/sorrowful news Message-ID: <19981004132925.5656.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >My brother dislikes Soolin intensely, and when I asked why I was >told that there was room for only one sarcastic bastard on board the >ship (aarrgghh, I bought "Timelash" last night, and I've just had to >correct the effect on my typing!), and I found myself agreeing with >him. Put another way, this argument could run, "It's OK for Avon to be a pig, but not for anyone else." There's something dangerously seductive about Avon's demeanour that invites us to ignore his faults while crucifying others for the same failings. It's the sort of personality trap that makes us like Hannibal Lecter when we watch "The Silence of the Lambs". We know we shouldn't -- he just has this certain, indefinable charm that draws us in and ensnares us. Avon's no Hannibal Lecter, of course -- but the personality trap is the same, and it's as necessary to take your rose-tinted glasses off when judging him as it is to take your rosemary-tinted glasses off when judging Tarrant. Cheers, -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 09:33:02 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) Message-ID: <1515062c.3617790e@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Julia J wrote: > Given the A-V relationship in series 1 and 2, Deborah's suggestion *is* > plausible in a situation where Vila probably isn't the best person for > the job anyway. I was taking the early seasons into account. It's something I might even have believed in early third season. But this was fourth season, and we don't see leader Avon playing games. He's got responsibility weighing heavily on his shoulders and encouraging his crew to play hooky isn't to his benefit. What is amusing when you aren't the leader (sneaking off in GAMBIT) becomes a threat when you are the leader. If you've worked out a plan (such as Blake's in GAMBIT), you want to know you can depend on your crew to be exactly where you expect them to be, performing with peak efficiency, and following orders. As a leader Avon can't afford to let discipline slip. If Avon knew Vila was faking it, he HAS to call him on it. He has no other safe course of action, no room for sentimental indulgence. These are life and death situations. He needs Vila to play it straight with him at all times. He can't find himself wondering is Vila drunk this time or is he sober? There may be situations where he needs to know that immediately and without a doubt. There may be times when Vila's input is needed immediately, when there isn't time for him to play a game to avoid work. What if in the time Vila was allowing to "get drunk," the Federation had shown up? Scorpio was a helpless target longer than it needed to be. These are all things a leader has to take into account. In TRAITOR we saw an Avon who made sure Tarrant and Dayna knew they weren't getting away with anything (when they pretended the communicator didn't work). "The next time you two pull a stunt like that, I warn you it might prove fatal." That's the attitude a leader must adopt. If anything, I would hope that fourth-season Avon would be embarrassed by any recollection of the Freedom City caper, and not prone to think "Vila and I are playing another trick together." He and Vila could all too easily have put their shipmates at risk with their indulgent frivolities in GAMBIT. Now that he's wearing Blake's shoes, I'd hope Avon would recognize that. Moreover, and beyond what Avon "should" do as leader, we have the evidence on the screen to suggest that he wasn't anywhere near to thinking of Vila in terms of "a companion in mischief." At the beginning of STARDRIVE we find a leader who is under considerable stress. A man who quite clearly sees the distinction between "them" (the crew) and me (the leader). Against their objections he demanded they follow his order and crawl into the shadow of the asteroid. Avon was so stressed he was willing to try for "luck" (his own word) to accomplish his goal. Luck wasn't with him, and his decision appears to have resulted in a death sentences for the lot of them. Any stress he was feeling at the beginning of the episode has just increased. If anything, he has to be feeling an even stronger need to maintain the distinction between leader and crew when he's just shown himself to be fallible. Also, there's no suggestion that Vila couldn't have managed the job, else why did he fake the drunkenness. Watch the beginning of STARDRIVE and then tell me you think Avon had any thought of a private joke in his head. Mind you, I'm not saying that a fan writer couldn't produce a story that would make Avon's complicity plausible, but it would have to include a great deal of set up and explaining to pull it off. Because there's not a trace hint of it on the screen. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 10:40:27 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Message-ID: <5a7852b4.361788db@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > To me, this confirms Vila's shrewdness and aptitude for survival. Rob and I are in agreement. I am not fainting...but it's close. > Ah, but you don't have to like a character to find him interesting. As > I find out more about Avon, for example, I like him less and less. > Anyone who leads a crew with a loaded gun, for whatever reason > (Terminal), earns little respect or admiration from me. What I find happening is that I like them despite their worst behaviors. Really like. I even LIKE Travis and Servalan. I find that I put myself in their shoes and understand why they are behaving less than admirably, and that degree of empathy allows me to like them. I admit that it did get a bit scary when I found myself empathizing with the crimo Molok in HOSTAGE. :) Avon is exhausted in TERMINAL. He's got two conflicting worries: rescuing Blake and keeping his crew safe. I can understand that he's rather stressed and not thinking clearly (killing your crew isn't keeping them safe ). Of course I might not be so forgiving if Avon had actually pulled the trigger and blown a great big hole in Tarrant's belly (though Blake fans seem able to forgive him for BLAKE). > Lancelot and Gawain repent of their former sins, and the Grail is > eventually found by Perceval, Bors and some other chap. (Someone remind > me what his name was, please.) I'm not an Arthurian expert, but wasn't it Galahad (Lancelot's son) who also found the Grail? Except that if Galahad easily comes into my mind (when Perceval and Bors wouldn't have), I can't imagine Rob missing it. Maybe that was a distortion of the original legend? There seem to be different versions about. > While Avon got away with his reckless and purely selfish attack on > Servalan's power base, I still can't ignore the fact that he was playing > into the hands of the newly formed Federation, and abusing the trust and > loyalty of his crew. Yep, it was reckless and selfish, but good came out of it. For one thing it seemed clear to me that Avon needed Anna off his conscience. He had pledged to do this for her in his mind, and once Avon has given his word--if only to himself--he needs to keep it. The second positive I see in RUMOURS is that it bonded the crew. It forced Tarrant, Vila, Cally and Dayna to realize they wanted to support and protect Avon. The third positive is the image of Avon it showed Tarrant. Until now, Avon has been maintaining that he doesn't need anyone, that he has no loyalty for anyone. RUMOURS is the first hint Tarrant has that Avon can/does feel loyalty. Now Tarrant knows not always to believe the negative image Avon is trying to project. It will make him more comfortable with Avon. I see RUMOURS as the beginning of the point where Tarrant will come to accept Avon as his leader. Without evidence that Avon could be loyal (also shown by Avon's loyalty to Blake in TERMINAL), that wouldn't have come about. So while RUMOURS might have been selfishly conceived by Avon and stupidly allowed to play out by the support of his crew, it benefited them in the long run. > Except that she wasn't doing it for Tarrant -- her interactions with > Zeeona and her attitude towards Zukan revealed to me that she was acting > on Zeeona's behalf rather than Tarrant's. Soolin is someone who detests > injustice and and sees through BS more astutely than anyone else in B7, Tell me more, because I really have a hard time understanding Soolin's motivations in WARLORD. Why do you see it as Soolin's fight against injustice? There didn't seem to be any empathy between her and Zeeona. Why would she take up Zeeona's cause and hate Zukan's dominance of Zeeona so vehemently that she'd risk the Alliance (that would have benefited her personally)? It's as if there is a piece of the puzzle that we're not getting. > You can imagine her doing nothing for years and years, just > waiting for the right moment. Never forgetting what she intends to do > -- just slowly accumulating information and expertise in order to right > the wrong that was done to her. I think she was a crusader at heart -- > her fury at Avon at the end of "Gold" gives us rare insight into just > how much she despised the Federation. Hm, I've never seen her as a crusader. Must think on that. The rest is all stuff I'd agree with. > (1) She would have waited until she had enough power and influence > within the crew, and wrested the leadership from Avon. Avon may or may > not have conceded it willingly -- but he would have been placed in a > position where he had no choice. But that doesn't fit (to me) with a woman who took a position as Dorian's companion and bodyguard. That's not a crusader. Nor is it someone who is thinking of a greater good. It's someone who is focusing on personal survival. > (3) Under no circumstances whatsoever would she have looked upon Avon as > anything other than a petulant member of her crew. If she had taken a > lover, it would have been someone made out of quite different material > to Avon. I can't see Avon falling into the role of subordinate. This is a man who didn't follow natural leader and fellow Alpha male Blake. What type of lover do you think she would have taken? The only canon we have is Dorian, kind of a scumbag. I see Soolin as taking him because he was (a) physically attractive to her and (b) not at all emotionally attractive to her. She could enjoy sex with him without fear of emotional entrapment. So to my way of thinking, she could have used Avon (in fourth season) the same way, as long as she didn't much like him. > Do you know, Carol, you show remarkably good taste from time to time. Careful, Rob, your sentiment is showing. ;-) > PS Apols, Carol, and anyone else I've done this to, for posting you two > copies of my last message. Sometimes I forget to delete the original > sender's name from the reply list, and two copies of the same message > end up in their mailbox. I'll second that. I've been known to forget to change the addy on more than one occasion. > Put another way, this argument could run, "It's OK for Avon to be a pig, > but not for anyone else." > > There's something dangerously seductive about Avon's demeanour that > invites us to ignore his faults while crucifying others for the same > failings. That double standard has always frustrated me. If Avon can be forgiven for using a gun to get his way in TERMINAL, why are Tarrant's threats--that he would never have carried out--so unforgivable? > Avon's no Hannibal Lecter, of course -- but the personality trap is the > same, and it's as necessary to take your rose-tinted glasses off when > judging him as it is to take your rosemary-tinted glasses off when > judging Tarrant. It's actually vanilla-tinted glasses that we wear. ;-) Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 09:27:27 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Message-ID: <19981004162727.22480.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >I'm not an Arthurian expert, but wasn't it Galahad (Lancelot's son) >who also found the Grail? Except that if Galahad easily comes into >my mind (when Perceval and Bors wouldn't have), I can't imagine Rob >missing it. Stupid plonker, it was Galahad. I must have been thinking way ahead of myself. Galahad was the one who was so perfect, he didn't want to stay around with fallible morons like us, so he took a direct flight to Heaven, without even bothering to die first. I certainly don't like him! -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:38:38 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Message-ID: In message <5a7852b4.361788db@aol.com>, Mac4781@aol.com writes >That double standard has always frustrated me. If Avon can be forgiven for >using a gun to get his way in TERMINAL, why are Tarrant's threats--that he >would never have carried out--so unforgivable? Avon is seriously wound up by the need to rescue Blake if he's really there, and the need to consider what will happen if it is, as he suspects, a trap. He is, in a back-handed way, trying to protect his crew. I think he needs his luscious little backside kicked for the way he goes about it, but the situation is rather different to Tarrant's. That makes a difference in how one views the use of a gun to threaten people. What does make Tarrant's actions forgivable for me is that Vila calls his bluff, and Tarrant just stands there. If he was genuinely a complete bastard, rather than a frustrated ex-military officer who's having trouble coping with the antics of a bunch of freaky civilians, I don't think he'd react quite like that :-) -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 12:45:12 -0500 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Message-Id: <199810041758.MAA29479@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rob Clother wrote: >Galahad was the one who was so perfect, he didn't want to stay >around with fallible morons like us, so he took a direct flight to >Heaven, without even bothering to die first. > >I certainly don't like him! You're just jealous 'cause he got to visit the Castle Anthrax. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:16:12 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Message-ID: <3c4eaec0.3617bb6c@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit People, please stop posting stuff that I can't resist. I have no will power. ;-) Julia wrote: > Avon is seriously wound up by the need to rescue Blake if he's really > there, and the need to consider what will happen if it is, as he > suspects, a trap. He is, in a back-handed way, trying to protect his > crew. It seems as if Tarrant is also trying to protect his crew. He's not forcing Vila to Keezarn for personal enjoyment. He thinks (and I agree) that they need the weaponry crystals to up their chance for survival. And in MOLOCH he's trying to keep Vila with him where he might have less of a chance of getting into trouble (which may suggest that Tarrant doesn't realize how prone *he* is to getting into trouble ). > I think he needs his luscious little backside kicked for the way > he goes about it, but the situation is rather different to Tarrant's. I also don't approve of Tarrant's methodology, but I understand that humans aren't perfect, and they don't always use the correct approach. But how do you see Avon's situation as different to Tarrant's? What do you think motivated Tarrant? > What does make Tarrant's actions forgivable for me is that Vila calls > his bluff, and Tarrant just stands there. If he was genuinely a complete > bastard, rather than a frustrated ex-military officer who's having > trouble coping with the antics of a bunch of freaky civilians, I don't > think he'd react quite like that :-) Thank you, thank you. I bow down at your feet. I have your Tarrant Nostra button ready to hand over at E-con. Such perception is much appreciated. Rob, I had a feeling you wouldn't like Galahad. Which probably contributed to your forgetfulness. You wanted to put him out of your mind. :) Katrina, good to hear more PGP will be coming our way. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:40:32 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Vila the drunk? Another reply Message-ID: <2d7a237e.3617c120@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Just a couple of quick responces to Carol's excellent points. 1) ref Avon maintaining proper leadership role and calling Vila out if he suspected Vila was faking. This is once place where Avon's faults stand out; in his ability to lead. A really good leader wouldn't have let one of his crewmen get drunk in the first place, would have been able to elicite suggestions from his crew without one of them resorting to subterfuge, and indeed, would (most probably) not found themselves in the situation in the first place. 2) One of the reasons I look to A/V collusion as a possiblity here( an idea I don't nessacarily buy; just considering) is the way Vila presents the information. Vila could have simply made the suggestion, knowing that he'd get ridiculed, especially from the newer crew members. Instead, he resorts to using the storybook method. This is something we've not seen before, even on occasions when we know he's imbibed. That alone sent a "heads-up" to Avon, to pay close attention to what Vila was saying. I'll have to look at the scenes again, but I seem to remember that Avon was listening rather intently to the story. Part of that may be due to the fact that I doubt if Vila had ever been off Earth before,and Avon knew it. Whatever, he listens, recognizes the validity of the idea, and must act. Now, he could "call out" Vila, saying, you've given us a chance and now I want you to drop your act, sober up, and come along and do this work. And waste time in getting Vila to do so, or intimidate Vila to where Vila may not speak up next time. Not that Avon's not capable of doing that if nessacary; it's just this occasion it isn't. Or he can pretend to believe Vila's drunkeness, and assign someone else the task. In this case, himself. Thus he rewards Vila, punishes himself, and possibly pays a nod to the ghost of his relationship with Vila, all without ever having to conceed to the others that he cares a whit about Vila. As you said, Avon is under extreme stress at the moment. And it's Vila who offered him a way out. Not entirely unbelievable that Avon might react as I indicated. Especially if you hold to my theory that his choice of a landing party was not merely done to provide a stalking horse for the space rats, but designed to provide a shadow of a chance of survival should one of the homicidal idiots decide to blow Scorpio out of the sky, literally, before they could accomplish their mission. but that's another matter:)..... D. Rose "Wow, some really neat discussions going on lately....." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:05:23 +0100 From: "Jennifer Beavan" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and gun Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Avon is seriously wound up by the need to rescue Blake if he's really > there, and the need to consider what will happen if it is, as he > suspects, a trap. He is, in a back-handed way, trying to protect his > crew. I think he needs his luscious little backside kicked for the way > he goes about it, but the situation is rather different to Tarrant's. > That makes a difference in how one views the use of a gun to threaten > people. But he wasn't just threatening - he was prepared to kill Tarrant - confirmed by both Tarrant and Cally. Tarrant was never going to shoot Vila and everybody knew it. Jennifer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:45:11 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Lots of stuff from Rob Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Sun 04 Oct, Mac4781@aol.com wrote: > Avon is exhausted in TERMINAL. He's got two conflicting worries: rescuing > Blake and keeping his crew safe. I can understand that he's rather stressed > and not thinking clearly (killing your crew isn't keeping them safe ). Of > course I might not be so forgiving if Avon had actually pulled the trigger and > blown a great big hole in Tarrant's belly (though Blake fans seem able to > forgive him for BLAKE). We're a very forgiving bunch . Besides, I love them both - Blake and Avon that is. > > You can imagine her doing nothing for years and years, just > > waiting for the right moment. Never forgetting what she intends to do > > -- just slowly accumulating information and expertise in order to right > > the wrong that was done to her. I think she was a crusader at heart -- > > her fury at Avon at the end of "Gold" gives us rare insight into just > > how much she despised the Federation. > > Hm, I've never seen her as a crusader. Must think on that. The rest is all > stuff I'd agree with. I've never seen Soolin as a crusader either. She was very pragmatic and I never saw her ethics as extending beyond the personal level. eg. She objected to Keiller shooting the doctor in 'Gold' becaus ehse herself would not have shot an unarmed person. I never saw her as wanting to save the universe. Her fury at the end of 'Gold' was fury at being placed in personal risk for no gain. The line about Servalan was as much to rub Avon's nose in it as anything else. > I can't see Avon falling into the role of subordinate. This is a man who > didn't follow natural leader and fellow Alpha male Blake. "The others are led, I choose to follow. It's not quite the same thing." That's roughly what Avon said re Blake, though I'm quoting from memory. > > Put another way, this argument could run, "It's OK for Avon to be a pig, > > but not for anyone else." > > > > There's something dangerously seductive about Avon's demeanour that > > invites us to ignore his faults while crucifying others for the same > > failings. > > That double standard has always frustrated me. If Avon can be forgiven for > using a gun to get his way in TERMINAL, why are Tarrant's threats--that he > would never have carried out--so unforgivable? Tell me!!! Blake gets exactly the same flack. We forgive Avon an enormous amount. He was a bastard, but a leather-clad, bastard with a seductive, charming smile and thus his evil deeds are merely signs that the poor dear was under stress. I drool over Avon, but I don't forget that he's dangerous. > > > Avon's no Hannibal Lecter, of course -- but the personality trap is the > > same, and it's as necessary to take your rose-tinted glasses off when > > judging him as it is to take your rosemary-tinted glasses off when > > judging Tarrant. > > It's actually vanilla-tinted glasses that we wear. ;-) Probably beer-colour for Blake fans... Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:33:45 EDT From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Double standards (was Stuff from Rob) Message-ID: <7944f31c.36183009@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-10-04 15:40:10 EDT, Judith ( and others) write: << There's something dangerously seductive about Avon's demeanour that > > invites us to ignore his faults while crucifying others for the same > > failings. > > That double standard has always frustrated me. If Avon can be forgiven for > using a gun to get his way in TERMINAL, why are Tarrant's threats--that he > would never have carried out--so unforgivable? Tell me!!! Blake gets exactly the same flack. We forgive Avon an enormous amount. He was a bastard, but a leather-clad, bastard with a seductive, charming smile and thus his evil deeds are merely signs that the poor dear was under stress. >> The double standard bugs me too. Avon, and to a lesser extent Vila, seem to be forgiven for anything, no matter how outrageous, like leaving the Liberator completely unattended in "Gambit" (if Blake and the others had needed emergency teleport they'd have been in deep trouble). At some points, they actively endanger their shipmates, either through intent or negligence. Having gotten on the net, I have since found that two of my favorite characters are fandom's whipping boys or something, with no real reason that I can see. Regarding the charges of bullying against Tarrant, the man was a military officer. That means several things. First, he is used to being in charge. Second, when someone is an officer, their focus is on accomplishing the mission, and they do whatever is necessary to do so. They don't let personal feelings get in the way of that. Also, the focus is on the welfare of the group as a group. In the early part of the third season, Tarrant had to adjust to working with civilians, and the rest of the crew had to adjust to having a military person on board. Vila's unreliable behavior endangered everyone, and I think Tarrant believed he had to do something about it for all their sakes. I do know this, if a crewman on a submarine got drunk and slept on duty all the time, he would not have been on sub duty very long, and in the meantime steps would have been taken to insure that he did not endanger others. (sorry about the run-on, it's late and I'm tired) I like Vila, but I'm not blind to his faults. Regarding Blake and the charges of manipulation, etc., Blake is a man who has lost everything: his family, his friends, his reputation, his home, even his memories. The Federation has killed or seriously hurt innocent people (the three boys in "The Way Back") to get to him. His cause is what keeps him going, and this isn't a situation where the nice guy in the white hat is likely to win. Blake is facing overwhelming odds, and the more episodes I see, the more I wonder that he didn't crack completely. In order to make all the deaths and pain mean something, Blake has to keep trying. Again, Blake was in a position where sometimes he had to do what it took to get the job done. In contrast, in the first two seasons, Avon and Vila's priorities seem to be themselves. In "Orbit," Avon may have been under a lot of stress, but that does not necessarily excuse his deliberately trying to kill Vila. After that, I don't think Vila ever trusted Avon again. Bye for now, Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Oct 1998 09:26:32 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news) Message-ID: <3614FEB8.24E7@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mac4781@aol.com wrote: re: Vila > Someone who had experienced multiple incarcerations had to have a toughness > about him. The image of him as a cowering victim to Tarrant's (or anyone's) > bullying just doesn't fit with a hardened criminal. I can't see that Vila was > all as frightened or bullied as some fans would suggest. ... Part of me believes that Vila could have made > mincemeat of Tarrant (in a very sneaky way) if he had been as disturbed by > Tarrant's treatment as fans are disturbed on his behalf. This would make a clever and funny story. I *do* love sneaky way stuff! The premise: When Tarrant starts getting pushy with Vila, Vila retaliates by playing subtle practical jokes (and uses his magician skills?) on Tarrant. Tarrant is no dummy and quickly figures out what's going on, but can't prove it or pin anything on Vila. The outcome is Tarrant recognizing that there are various kinds of "strength" and military "intelligence" resulting in an unspoken truce and accepting companionship between the two. ok, who wants to write it? Post it to the list, please, when you do! :D Pat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 19:09:10 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: most dreadful 1/2 page in the world Message-ID: <36182A46.4285@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Rob Clother wrote: > A good stab at using these terrible trite phrases. > But now (courtesy of Murray) still more (re: Soolin) have been added to > the gag (as in retch) bag. > So I shall have a go: > > Jenna appeared in the doorway and softly called his name > his eyes popping out of his head > a beautiful and sexy star maiden > it took all of ten seconds > attired in the most revealing costume > well aware of the stunning effect > goggling admiration > expression one of impish seductiveness > Jenna enquired coyly, posing for him > It makes me feel like a woman again > She was in her early twenties, blonde, and very lovely > emphasising her beautifully-proportioned figure > >From out of the shadows appeared a girl > She was stunningly beautiful > clung to her like a shiny second skin > Avon stared, unable to tear his eyes away ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 20:51:21 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Soolin Message-ID: <36184239.C7D@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Mac4781@aol.com wrote: (responding to Rob) > Tell me more, because I really have a hard time understanding Soolin's > motivations in WARLORD. Why do you see it as Soolin's fight against > injustice? There didn't seem to be any empathy between her and Zeeona. Why > would she take up Zeeona's cause and hate Zukan's dominance of Zeeona so > vehemently that she'd risk the Alliance (that would have benefited her > personally)? It's as if there is a piece of the puzzle that we're not > getting. Yes, the whole Zeeona crusade did seem a bit out of character for Soolin. But as she is self centered and pragmatic, I see this as an impulsive feminist crusade. Just as she didn't want to see an unarmed man (the doctor on the Space Princess) shot cuz she wouldn't do it, she didn't want to see a young woman pushed about by her father (or any man) because she herself wouldn't want to put up with it. I recall at least one occasion where I witnessed a man subtly putting down a young woman in the workplace, and found myself impulsively intervening on behalf of the underdog. (Challenging the man to an arm-wrestling contest to determine whether it was true that "men were better than women" or whatever foolishness he was laying on this young receptionist.) [Of *course* I won!] [No, he never mouthed off around her again.] Or perhaps there *is* a piece of the puzzle we're not seeing? Perhaps Zeeona reminds Soolin of herself at a younger (sweeter) age. Or perhaps Zeeona reminds her of a friend or a sister. Perhaps she saw that femme go under some man's thumb and felt this was a "second chance" to avenge what she let slide before. Because Soolin thinks more of herself than others, it's possible that her immediate satisfaction in this matter outweighed the future benefits of the Warlord Alliance. There's no reason Vila should be the only one to live in the impulsive pleasure of the moment! Pat ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:00:34 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] re: most dreadful 1/2 page Message-ID: <36185272.5E1A@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: list of trite novel lines: oops! sorry; didn't mean to send this - still meaning to write something with it! :*/ Pat -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #252 **************************************