From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #262 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/262 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 262 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] BBC choice [B7L] web page updates Re: [B7L] shuttle Re: [B7L] Question... Re: [B7L] shuttle Re: [B7L] shuttle [B7L] Blake and Avon Re: [B7L] Seven Vices [B7L] Travis - was Seven Vices [B7L] Enararre Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon RE: [B7L] Seven Vices Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Re: [B7L] New Series? Re: [B7L] shuttle [B7L] Glasgow ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 07:44:10 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] BBC choice Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 13 Oct, Dangermouse wrote: > > > Dear Blake's 7 fans.... > > > > An Invitation from the BBC. > > > > BBC Choice, the BBC's new digital channel is making a theme night for next > > January called 'Over the Moon'. > > Why not bloody do it on a station that more than three people can actuallyw > atch - there'll probably be more people turn up at the filming than can > recieve the damn channel! Better 'owt' than 'nowt'. If they get a good response for this then maybe they'll try something similar in future on a main channel. Looking at it on the positive side, it's the second time someone at the BBC has noticed Blake's 7 in less than a year. I think we have to encourage them as much as possible - especially when they're trying to be positive about the programme. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 08:18:31 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] web page updates Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII There's a new set of photographs on the web page of Gareth Thomas when he was working for the Royal Shakespeare Company. The pictures come from Twelth Night (Orsino), Anna Christie (Matt Burke) and Othello (Montano). There's minor updates on the rest of the page. The list of zines that I agent now includes zines from A-team, and Sherlock Holmes, as well as new zines in many other fandoms. Should there actually be a fan for 'Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea' out there, then I seem to have loads of new titles in this particular fandom. Judith PS. We've started including direct links to places (US and UK) where you can buy the B7 videos and will shortly be moving this from 'merchandise' to a new category of 'videos' as it seems to be a popular section. We're also hoping to add links to other videos that might be of interest to fans such as Dr Who - Timelash, Gareth's episodes for London's Buring, and so forth. If you'd like to suggest suitable videos to include in this section, we're all ears. (We do want to stick to ones that are still available as far as possible) -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:09:59 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] shuttle Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 13 Oct, Jennifer Beavan wrote: > For practical rather than emotional reasons I'd say that Vila was the ONLY > one Avon would have spaced. I think it was Vila's running that triggered > Avon's hunter/prey reflex. Except that Avon's back was to Vila, so Avon couldn't know Vila had overheard. > > I reckon any of the other 2 crews would have stayed and faced it out. On > the premise that Avon would have hesitated about shooting immediately I > think they could have argued him out of it. Once Blake had said , fine, I'm > not moving, shoot me here and then drag my 200lbs dead weight to the > airlock, round corners and over steps, I think Avon would have got his > brain back in gear! I have a lovely mental picture of that scene. Another option. Soolin might have shot Avon first. Although the idea of forcing Avon to think straight is attractive, you have to consider how the situation appeared from where he was. Egrorian didn't have to use neutron star material to stop the shuttle achieving orbit, removing most of the fuel and then fudging the fuel gauge would have worked just as well. There was no guarantee that there was an easy solution. If it had been a fuel cutoff, then all stopping to think would have done would be to buy death for two parties instead of one. It was after all, remarkably generous of Egrorian to leave his plastic block in such an easy to find position. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 20:08:46 -0500 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Question... Message-Id: <199810150105.UAA17505@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:41 AM 10/14/98 , SuzanThoms@aol.com wrote: >Could anyone tell me if the Enararre zines are slash or gen. I would very >much appreciate it. Gen, according to the listing in Judith's fanzine index. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 09:45:36 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] shuttle Message-ID: <4d6cdee0.3624ab00@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/13/98 1:37:24 PM Central Daylight Time, J.Beavan@btinternet.com writes: << reckon any of the other 2 crews would have stayed and faced it out. On the premise that Avon would have hesitated about shooting immediately I think they could have argued him out of it. Once Blake had said , fine, I'm not moving, shoot me here and then drag my 200lbs dead weight to the airlock, round corners and over steps, I think Avon would have got his brain back in gear! >> I disagree. I think Avon at this point would have ditched anyone but Ana, as someone pointed out, or his brother. If the others had stood up to them, I think he would have shot them right then and there. I don't understand getting his brain back in gear. His brain was perfectly in gear. At the time he made his decision, Orac had presented him with the only option for survival. Someone who weighed more than 70 kilos would have to be jettisoned, voluntarilly or not, in order for the second person to survive. What Avon did was attempt to shut off his emotional responce to that cold-blooded logic, resulting in that eerie tone he used when hunting Vila. I do think that this changed him considerably. In Blake, he reluctantly abandons Tarrant when he realizes there's no other viable option(wonder what a nasty flashback that brought him). Once on the ground, he could easily have set off for the base/town on his own. Instead, he tracks down his errant teammates, rescuing them just in time. Typically, he allows the others to draw what conclusions they want without rebuttal or bragging. Soolin assumes they were bait. But Avon had no way of knowing they would provide such an easy diversion by lighting a fire, nor could he assume that they wouldn't spot him first. So his actions were based not on logic but on concern for his companions. A flashback, if you will, to the Avon of Horizon. Whoa. Much longer post than I'd planned. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Oct 1998 16:10:22 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] shuttle Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > For practical rather than emotional reasons I'd say that Vila was the ONLY > one Avon would have spaced. I think it was Vila's running that triggered > Avon's hunter/prey reflex. Now I can buy that possibility. I think they would have to catch him immediately, as soon as they heard Orac make the announcement. Once Avon had that moment to gear himself up for the kill it would have been too late. > I reckon any of the other 2 crews would have stayed and faced it out. On > the premise that Avon would have hesitated about shooting immediately I > think they could have argued him out of it. Once Blake had said , fine, I'm > not moving, shoot me here and then drag my 200lbs dead weight to the > airlock, round corners and over steps, I think Avon would have got his > brain back in gear! I don't think Blake would even have given it serious consideration. But one would hope he'd speak up at that point and not leave to dump excess items on the assumption that Avon wouldn't give it serious consideration. I'd like to think Blake would have immediately popped in with "That's not acceptable Orac. What else can you suggest?" I don't know Blake well enough to be sure he'd do that. It's something Tarrant would say at that point. But from the get go, I'd also think that pilot Tarrant would be thinking in terms of what was preventing them from achieving escape velocity. Which doesn't mean he'd have figured it out, but that would have been his main focus. He might have come up with an alternate solution--put the shuttle in a slowly decaying orbit, ground it--before the situation became critical. He might have still been looking for a solution up until it was too late. I'm not sure he'd notice that Avon was prepared to shoot him soon enough to do anything to prevent it. Now if there wasn't a chance to prevent the situation from becoming a real option in Avon's head, then I think he would shoot immediately. He's not allowing himself to think about what he's doing, and the last thing he wants is to hear a voice that reminds him of who his victim is. There's also the question of how others would react if they knew Avon was stalking them. As you note, none of the others are likely to run and hide. If they've seen Avon willing to shoot Tarrant on the way to Terminal, they might be reluctant to face him down. Would they consider stalking him instead? I can believe that all of them would consider Avon's attitude as a justifiable reason to defend themselves. It becomes a different ballgame once you start altering circumstances. It's fun to play with those possibilities. I've read a number of very plausible alternate Orbits (that didn't include Avon or Vila), and a few that were not so plausible. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 16:56:22 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Blake and Avon Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 13 Oct, Mac4781@aol.com wrote: > Judith wrote: > > > He took bigger risks for Blake then anyone else. 'Terminal' is the only > > case of him heading into something he expected to be a trap. > > Not really. He chased after Cancer, knowing that to be a trap. He also > believed the Zerok gold scheme was a trap. He also suspected Egrorian! I don't see the situations as similar. In the case of Cancer, they were trying to be clever and pre-empt a trap. The alternative was to sit around and be assassinated. In 'Gold' the motive was greed. Until Avon checked the records of the Space Princess, he didn't suspect Servalan was involved, > > But let's talk about Terminal. Are you telling me that he wouldn't have gone > to Terminal if it was one of the others in similar danger? I don't know if he'd have gobe on a 'maybe' for one of the others. He wasn't 100% convinced that Blake was really there. I also think he'd have been a lot more open about it if it had been anyone else. He certainly did take risks for the others - going back to a high-radiation planet for Jenna in 'Deliverance' is an obvious case, but his reactions were always hard to predict where Blake was concerned. > > > He was able to shot him in 'Blake' because he thought he had been betrayed. > > That was not the normal relationship between them. > > The shuttle wasn't a normal relationship moment either. That was a > frightened, panicked Avon. Not the Avon we saw in first, second seasons. I certinly didn't see him as as frightened and panicked in that scene. I saw him as logical, cold ad ruthless. > > The fact that he was so quick to believe that Blake betrayed him doesn't > indicate a great deal of trust or devotion to me. He took Tarrant's word over > Blake's "Tarrant doesn't understand." Tarrant's words were all the proof Avon > had that Blake betrayed him. There was rather more than that. The mere fact that Blake was working as a bounty hunter was going to make Avon edgy to start with. PLus Avon was stressed out and had no idea where Blake had been for two years. The last time he thought he'd found Blake it had been an illusion and a trap. Add that to the fact that he'd been betrayed by Anna Grant (the only person whom I see meaning as much to him as Blake did). You could also argue psychologically that Cally had betrayed hiim by dying. Vila hated him becaus of 'Orbit'. In short, Avon had come to expect betrayal from people he loved. Subconsciously he was almost expecting the betrayal. Then Tarrant (looking badly injured and with no reason to lie) confirms his worst fears. Avon fires. > > > The classic scene for me is when Avon (who had stated that he didn't give a > > damn about the Decimas if it was a choice between them and > > the Liberator) refuses to hand over the power cells. It's Blake who > > cracks, even though Avon is the one threatened. > > Avon doesn't crack in Terminal when Servalan has a gun to his head and demands > he turn over Liberator and his shipmates. Avon tells Vila to get the hell out > of there. Avon had his moments of stubborn heroics. Both in THE WEB and in > TERMINAL I think it was as much that he didn't want to give in to intimidation > as it was a heroic/protective gesture. Stubborness is certainly a strong part of his character. Mind you, rewatch the Web someday and see the way Avon glances at Blake before stating his position with regard to the power cells. > > > It's also an epiaode where Avon is given to doing things like pushing Blake > > out of the way of explosions. > > Again, would he only have done that for Blake? If it had been Gan, would he > have run the other way? Or just taken care of himself? I'm not sure. I can think of good arguments both ways. A lot depends on whather you believe him when he says it was an automatic reaction. > > > It did. Consider the risks he took in episodes like 'pressure Point'. He > > knew Blake was holding out on them, but he still went. > > He went to Ultraworld to retrieve Cally although he knew they were walking > into unknown dangers. Then he stayed by Cally's side when he says quite > clearly that he doesn't trust the Ultra. He ends up getting his brain sucked > for his efforts, but he never indicates that he regretted the risks he took on > Cally's behalf. > > As I've said, he took risks for all of his shipmates. Blake wasn't unique in > that respect. Blake was unique in that Avon did it while continually disagreeing with him. The contrast between the body language and the dialogue is endlessly fascinating. > > > Not necessarily. Avon was quite capable of coming up with bad ideas on his > > own. > > Mind you, he did tend more towards being sacrificial when he felt guilty. > > 'Hostage' another episode where he's taking risks on Blake's behalf, is > > when Avon is well aware that much of the danger is of his own making. > > Except that he is responsible for Vila's being on the shuttle and he is > willing to dump him. So even if it were Avon's responsibility that Blake was > on the shuttle with him, I can't see that he'd behave differently. I don't > think Avon cared more about Blake than about Vila. He was willing to leave > Blake without backup in GAMBIT so he could go off and play with Vila. I guess he didn't percieve the few seconds extra delay in getting the shore party back again to be critical (I still think it was careless of him though. Greed was one of Avon's weaknesses) > > > Pressure Point is a good example where Avon puts his arms round Blake while > > telling him that there's nothing > > there in the control room. > > And Avon shows tender compassion for Dayna when they find Lauren. I don't > think that would have stopped him from spacing Dayna in ORBIT, if she weighed > enough to make a difference. He takes Tarrant's arm above the elbow (said to > be a very intimate place to grip someone) when he's talking to Tarrant after > Deeta died. Which doesn't stop me from believing that he'd have spaced > Tarrant. That was simply good manners where Dayna was concerned. He barely knew her at that point. One of Avon's good points was that he could be very courteous with strangers. He was very well-mannered with Hal Mellanby too. > > > Trial is another classic. He virtually talks the entire crew into being > > willing to abandon Blake, then goes and rescues him. > > And he tries to say he isn't willing to go to ULTRAWORLD to rescue Cally, and > he isn't keen on going to help Auron. Avon often failed to live up to his own > bad press releases. It wasn't just for Blake. They really had to pressure him into going to Auron. > > > If he had ever wanted Liberator > > for his own, he could have taken it in that episode and none of te other > > crew members would have stopped him. > > That's not really Avon's style. A much better example of how he would > separate himself from Blake, if and when he was ready, is BREAKDOWN. He sets > himself up with a bolthole. And notice that he's willing to give the teleport > system as a payment for his independence. That's not showing an inclination > to protect Blake. He was willing to give over the teleport, he wasn't willing to say who his fellow crew members were. Like I said, greed is one of his flaws, but loyalty to his friends is the balance to that. > > > With Avon and Blake, nothing is ever quite as it seems. > > With Avon, what you see is seldom what it seems. I don't think Avon quite > knows himself at times. But what he was was basically a good man. When it > came down to deciding between right and wrong, he normally leaned toward > right. When he panicked and leaned toward VERY WRONG, his emotions wouldn't > have reacted any differently no matter who was with him. I think Avon was a good man hiding behind a cynic. Blake floored him because Blake wasn't hiding behind anything. Blake was very open about his feelings and beliefs in a way that Avon was not. Tarrant was prettier than Blake, was highly skilled in his own area, and had his own principles, but Blake had belief and vison. Blake wanted something more. He was the one with the dream who propelled them all forward. Without Blake, they would have fallen into a life of random piracy or petty crime. Blake demonstrated to the cynic that there could be a meaning to life - that's why I see their relationship as different. Blake fascinated Avon. Whether you loved him or hated him, Blake forced people to think about what they stood for. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 21:38:35 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-ID: <36257C4B.55F6@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Clother wrote: > A vice is something you have: a character trait of some kind. A sin is > something you do. So the vice is the chicken and the sin is the egg? > You can --have-- lustful thoughts, which constitues a > vice, but you haven't sinned until you've actually gone out and > committed adultery. Jimmy Carter thought he sinned when "I committed adultry in my heart." > >Who "invented" the 7 deadly sins, anyway? Some medieviel monk? Yep. St Thomas Aquinas. yipes! I was just joking! > On to Carnell and Soolin: > The thing is, you're always manipulated when you're with a lover. > That's what makes them your lover -- when you're with them, everything > looks different. wow. this is profound. > >...He'd work out what Soolin liked, what she needed, > and when she needed it. And he'd deliver it with a style and subtlety > that would disarm her completely. Avon, move over! re: Soolin & Grant > ... But being the complicated person she is, er, it's nice of you to say so, but going by canon, Soolin seems the most one dimensional character of them all. I can only think of 2 times when she "broke character" Once, when laughing with Dayna. Two, when helping Zeeona. Otherwise she is nearly deadpan with reserve. I can't see her wanting a "true" lover to threaten to crack that hard shell. > I can't see her > staying in one gear --all-- the time. Tarrant, yes. Vila, yes. Avon, > yes. Soolin: I think Soolin thrives on change, and constant change > between her lover and the rest of her life would suit her down to the > ground. I disagree. After the rolicking life she's led since being orphaned early on, I should think a bit of stability and safety might come as a nice bit of change. Pat P Acolyte at the Temple of The Golden Goddess Soolin and as much of a realist as well ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 19:26:24 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Travis - was Seven Vices Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Wed 14 Oct, AChevron@aol.com wrote: > Tigerm1019@aol.com writes: > > << As for Travis, didn't he > envy anyone who was whole and undamaged? I thought the reason he hated Blake > so much was that he held Blake responsible for his mutilation. Also, it > seemed to me that he had a consuming envy of anyone who wasn't on Servalan's > leash. >> > > I've always thought that Travis' motivations were a bit more complex than > that. After all, he could have had most of the damage repaired or cosmetically > covered, but elected not to do so. In fact, I think part of his reason for > hating Blake is the fact that Blake, as an enemy, survived. From what I've > seen, he's firmly in the school of the "only good enemy is a dead enemy." This makes very good sense. Not only did Blake survive, he was set up as a respectable citizen and to Travis's mind, left unpunished. Does Travis actually keep the scar to force other people to remember that Blake 'got away with it'? It isn't to remind him that he hates Blake, it's to remind everyone else that Blake is dangerous. > I'm not sure I see the consuming envy of people not under Servalan's > control. Sure, he doesn't like his position powerwise with her. But > essentially everyone is either under Servalan's control or having to face the > consequences of that; namely being harrassed, attacked, blackmailed, etc. My > own take is that he identified her with the Federation; thus his sometimes > reluctant assistance to some of her more obvious powerplays(Orac, for > instance). I don't see envy either. Travis was very much the military man. I think he looked down on civilians, didn't envy them. The Horizon Tape, Travis The Final Act, has some interesting interviews with regard to Travis. From what I remember (and it was a while ago I last listened), I'd say that Travis respected Servalan's position as head of the military heirarchy. He'd been a military man all his life and didn't really know anything else. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 18:43:33 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Enararre Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII >Hello... Could anyone tell me if the Enararre zines are slash or gen. I would > very much appreciate it. > > Thank you, Suzanne It's a genzine. I'll always say if a zine contains adult or slash material. (But I should probably have said genzine even so, just to make it clear.) I've only got eight copies of each so can't say how long they'll remain in stock. I'll take requests for Ecclecticon if people want me to save a copy and bring it over. Judith PS. I've got a few requests in hand for E-con already, but if there are any zines that people particularly want - Forbidden Star Two, Morgan, The Road to Hell, etc. then please let me know. My neck's pretty bad at the moment and that will inevitably limit what I can carry over with me. I'd far rather carry zines that I know people want than end up selling out of some and having others left over. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 07:11:05 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/98 1:08:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes: << They really had to pressure him into going to Auron. > >> I've never seen this one as one where Avon was all that pressured. It's always looked to me that he wa torn in what direction he really wanted to go. Yes, he voices his heisitation, but it's not with any real emphasis. He voices his concerns, but yields readily enough when the others make it clear they want to go. And he's the only one to seem to suspect a trap, which is indeed what ends up happening. As for the whole thread of if Avon would have ditched someone besides Avon, I'm sure he would have. Even Blake. This situation forced him to "put up or shut up" in his adherence to logic and self-interest. Given the certaintude of death if he didn't act, I can't see him allowing anyone, even Blake, to stand in his way. D. ROse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 04:48:26 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Message-ID: <19981015114827.7606.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Given the certaintude of death if he didn't act, I can't see him >allowing anyone, even Blake, to stand in his way. There's a counterexample in "Countdown". -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:03:04 EDT From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/15/98 8:10:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com writes: << >Given the certaintude of death if he didn't act, I can't see him >allowing anyone, even Blake, to stand in his way. There's a counterexample in "Countdown". >> Good point. Hadn't thought of that one. But the circumstances are a bit different. In Countdown, Avon seems to be trying to atone for Anna's death, and is willing to gamble even his life to repay his debt to Del Grant. He does something similiar in Rumours. So if he felt that he were indebted to Blake in some way, I suppose he might not attempt to kill him. And if it had been him and Dayna, he might even have voluntarily thrown himself out, given she didn't weigh enough. But unless he felt he were indebted to Blake, I still say he would have done the same to him. If he did feel that indebtedness is a whole 'nother discussion.:-) D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 09:55:14 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "Blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: RE: [B7L] Seven Vices Message-Id: <01BDF821.EB8C6DA0@cmg71700449> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 10/12/98 4:41:25 PM Central Daylight Time, Tigerm1019@aol.com writes: << As for Travis, didn't he envy anyone who was whole and undamaged? I thought the reason he hated Blake so much was that he held Blake responsible for his mutilation. Also, it seemed to me that he had a consuming envy of anyone who wasn't on Servalan's leash. >> And D.Rose answers: << I've always thought that Travis' motivations were a bit more complex than that. After all, he could have had most of the damage repaired or cosmetically covered, but elected not to do so. In fact, I think part of his reason for hating Blake is the fact that Blake, as an enemy, survived. >> I think it is more than Blake's survival. The first time Travis goes after him it seems to be with the air of the accomplished hunter going after a kind of game he already knows and is familiar with. He expects it to be quick and easy. But again and again Blake not only escapes, but actually makes a fool of Travis while doing so. On several occasions Blake could have killed Travis, but decided not to do so. To Travis, being allowed to live on because he was apparently not important enough to kill, would be the ultimate disgrace. As plan after plan not only fails, but backfires, we can see his hatred of Blake growing. Any physical reminders of past encounters with Blake (like the hand and the eyepatch) are IMHO just minor factors. Bye, Jacqueline Thijsen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 12:37:03 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Deborah-Rob-Deborah discuss: > << >Given the certaintude of death if he didn't act, I can't see him > >allowing anyone, even Blake, to stand in his way. > > There's a counterexample in "Countdown". >> > > > Good point. Hadn't thought of that one. But the circumstances are a bit > different. In Countdown, Avon seems to be trying to atone for Anna's death, > and is willing to gamble even his life to repay his debt to Del Grant. More to the point (to my mind) is that COUNTDOWN didn't guarantee Avon's death. He went into that believing he had the ability to disarm the bomb. He took off his bracelet still believing he could do it. I see ORBIT as more akin to STARDRIVE. In STARDRIVE it was Plaxton or all of them. She was dead either way. In ORBIT Avon saw it that Vila was dead either way (since Avon didn't intend to space himself). > And if it had been him > and Dayna, he might even have voluntarily thrown himself out, given she > didn't weigh enough. It would meet his logic criteria in STARDRIVE, as he'd be dead either way. I'm still not sure Avon would have done it. I can see Blake, Gan or Tarrant easily doing it, if they were with someone who didn't weigh enough. Vila is another uncertainty. My response to Jennifer's suggestion just came through. I don't know where it was; I wrote it a couple of days ago. I've since rewatched the critical bit of ORBIT where Orac says Vila weighs 73 kilos. And it confirms to me that any attempt to diffuse the situation had to be made immediately. By the time Avon retrieves the gun would be too late. So if ORBIT ran the same except that Blake was on board, Blake would have to immediately reopen the door (which was in the process of closing) and ask Orac for another option or come up with another option himself. There are few seconds there where Avon is digesting Orac's suggestion when he hasn't yet committed himself to killing Vila. It's never easy to know what is going through Avon's mind, but if I had to guess I'd say he was questioning whether there was another option, and not finding one, as well as asking himself if he could kill Vila, and realizing that under these circumstances he could. He doesn't set off after Vila joyfully by any means. It's not something he wants to do. It's something he has to do. As he'd have to do if it were any of his other male comrades in arms. > I don't know if he'd have gobe on a 'maybe' for one of the others. He wasn't > 100% convinced that Blake was really there. I also think he'd have been a > lot more open about it if it had been anyone else. With similar evidence, I think Avon would have gone for any of them. It's inconceivable to me that he could actually ignore a shipmate in trouble. As to whether he'd be more open, not if he was keeping it a secret to protect his shipmates, which seemed to be the case in TERMINAL. > He certainly did take risks for the others - going back to a high-radiation > planet for Jenna in 'Deliverance' is an obvious case, but his reactions were > always hard to predict where Blake was concerned. When were his reactions hard to predict where Blake was concerned? I'm not sure what that means. I never saw Avon's behavior with Blake as inexplicable or difficult to understand or out of character. Yes, he took risks for Blake, as he took risks for others. Yes, he protested Blake leading them off on dangerous missions, as he protested when he thought Tarrant was leading them off on dangerous missions. > I certinly didn't see him as as frightened and panicked in that scene. I > saw him as logical, cold ad ruthless. Even more reason to suggest that he'd off Blake as easily as he would have offed Vila. I agree with you, by the way, he was logical, cold and ruthless, but only after panic and fright drove him to that point. He's pretty desperate (and not particularly cool or logical) when he pounds Orac's case and rhetorically asks "What weighs 70 kilos?" > You could also argue psychologically that > Cally had betrayed hiim by dying. I have to admit that I groan when I hear that suggestion. I think Avon is far too logical to view death as a betrayal. > In short, Avon had come to expect betrayal from people he loved. One betrayal--Anna--has him expecting anyone he cares about to betray him? Again, I think Avon is far too logical to take one example as proof of a theory. > Subconsciously he was almost expecting the betrayal. Are you telling me that Avon went to GP expecting to find a genuine Blake-the- bounty-hunter who was capable of betraying of him? I can't see the purpose of that. > Then Tarrant (looking badly injured and > with no reason to lie) confirms his worst fears. He would expect to see Tarrant badly injured after the crash. But I will agree that seeing Tarrant being beaten up made Avon suspicious that they were in an unfriendly environment. As did Klyn's call for security. It certainly didn't help Blake's defense of himself. > Stubborness is certainly a strong part of his character. Mind you, rewatch > the > Web someday and see the way Avon glances at Blake before stating his > position with regard to the power cells. I'm not sure what moment you mean or what you see there. As painful as I find THE WEB, I just rewatched the sequence and didn't see anything particularly meaningful or unexpected. If anything, Blake has to come off as inept in Avon's eyes. Blake thinks he is in control of the situation, but it's soon evident that he isn't at all in control. > I'm not sure. I can think of good arguments both ways. A lot depends on > whather you believe him when he says it was an automatic reaction. I don't think there was time for it be anything but an instinctive reaction, which suggests to me that Avon would have instinctly behaved the same with anyone, even with a stranger. I am curious about why you think Avon wouldn't have done the same for Gan, if he had time to think about it. Why do it for Blake but not for Gan? > Blake was unique in that Avon did it while continually disagreeing with him. As I had just pointed out, Avon disagreed about going to Ultraworld, yet he went. There's nothing unique about Avon saying one thing and doing another. > I guess he didn't percieve the few seconds extra delay in getting the shore > party back again to be critical (I still think it was careless of him though. > Greed was one of Avon's weaknesses) I never thought he went to Freedom City out of greed. What did he need credits for with the riches of Liberator's treasure room at his disposal? If you think Greed was Avon's weakness, then maybe you think he only went to Terminal because of the promise of riches. Which I don't believe. I don't think Servalan was sure of what might motivate Avon, which is why she baited the trap with both Blake and with riches. > Without Blake, > they would have fallen into a life of random piracy or petty crime. Blake > demonstrated to the cynic that there could be a meaning to life This is something that people either see or they don't see. Blake may have forced people to think about what they stood for, but he didn't turn Avon into something other than what he was all along. He didn't bring some deep meaning into Avon's life. I believe Avon when he says that "winning is the only safety." His fight against the Federation wasn't to protect humanity or to adopt Blake's dreams, it was to protect himself. I also think part of it was a reluctance to be a loser. Avon had been in the fight for so long that it became a personal point of pride. I'm not sure he would admit to that, though. I'm not even sure he would recognize it. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 08:36:08 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake and Avon Message-ID: In message , Judith Proctor writes >There was rather more than that. The mere fact that Blake was working as a >bounty hunter was going to make Avon edgy to start with. PLus Avon was stressed >out and had no idea where Blake had been for two years. The last time he >thought he'd found Blake it had been an illusion and a trap. Add that to the >fact that he'd been betrayed by Anna Grant (the only person whom I see meaning >as much to him as Blake did). You could also argue psychologically that Cally >had betrayed hiim by dying. Vila hated him becaus of 'Orbit'. > >In short, Avon had come to expect betrayal from people he loved. Subconsciously >he was almost expecting the betrayal. Then Tarrant (looking badly injured and >with no reason to lie) confirms his worst fears. Avon fires. Ther's one other reason. Blake has been programmed by the Federation to betray the resistance - at least twice. He was broken by the interrogators and then programmed to denounce the resistance, pre-Way Back. In _Voice from the Past_, that programming makes him vulnerable to another takeover attempt on his mind, when he thinks his behaviour is perfectly reasonable but he's actually leading them all into a trap. Avon knows perfectly well, from unfortunate past experience, that a Blake who might have been in the the Federation's hands is a Blake who could betray him, without even meaning to. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 11:09:02 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] New Series? Message-ID: <19981015180902.28415.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Andy wrote: In Dreamwatch I have just read about a new series with a beautiful and powerful three-pronged space ship with a crew of six. One in charge, one technical 'wizard' a telepath, a thief... And apparently there is a strange box that they talk to now and then for advice. The series is Crusade, the follow-up to Babylon 5. Does anybody think that J. Michael is taking his love of B7 a little too far? And I say- Hey, it great! By making the connection to B7, I think more people will watch the series on videotape or PBS ( USA). I started watching it while a teenager in NY- it was the cult tv series to know. Maybe the cult status will spread to a more general view. Edith ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 18:33:29 +0100 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] shuttle Message-ID: <+19oVAApHjJ2Ew9o@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message , Mac4781@aol.com writes >Now I can buy that possibility. I think they would have to catch him >immediately, as soon as they heard Orac make the announcement. Once Avon had >that moment to gear himself up for the kill it would have been too late. One of the best bits for me is that Vila realises what Avon will do before Avon does. If anyone was to persuade Avon to do otherwise, that was the moment. There is the gaping plot hole of why doesn't Orac realise what's happened and tell them - but I suspect that Orac is human enough to have its reason clouded by panic. And Orac is not about to sacrifice itself by telling them what to look for - by the time they've found a small object that could have been hidden anywhere, the shuttle could have crashed. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 13:48:12 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Glasgow Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Are there any Gareth Thomas fans living near Glasgow? I've found a souce of photos of some of the plays he's been in, but they're in a theatre archive that hasn't been fully sorted yet and would have to be spotted on the photographers old contact sheets. Glasgow's rather a long way from Dorset... They may be able to locate some photos for me eventually, But I suspect it would be a lot easier if somebody else was able to go there and look over the contact sheets with a magnifying glass to find the relevent photos. (Contact sheets are what photographers produce for theatres, etc. A mini print of all the photos on a one large sheet. The theatres then choose which ones they want printing up full size as publicity photos.) Is anyone in a position to be able to help? Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #262 **************************************