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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 98 : Issue 275

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
	 Re: [B7L] B7/Bill/Brush Strokes Connection
	 [B7L] Irishness (long)
	 [B7L] Re: Irishness (long)
	 [B7L] JtVS, religion
	 Re: [B7L] Redemption-stewards
	 Re: [B7L] JtVS, religion

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 08:14:09 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] religion in the B7 universe
Message-ID: <deb8e35f.363b0d21@aol.com>
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WAVES, the third novella in Roberta Stuemke's PGP series includes references
to religion that has been suppressed and gone underground.

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 13:27:48 -0000
From: "Dangermouse" <master@sol.co.uk>
To: "Fleur A Johnstone" <fleur@p086.aone.net.au>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] B7/Bill/Brush Strokes Connection
Message-Id: <199810311355.NAA16061@gnasher.sol.co.uk>
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----------
> From: Fleur A Johnstone <fleur@p086.aone.net.au>
> 
> Calling B7 fanatics. I watched the episode "Trial" the other day (local
> video store had it) and was surprised to see Kevin Lloyd (Tosh from The
> Bill) playing a guard. He was certainly much younger, quite handsome in
> fact. Are there any other Bill actors (obviously 40+) who have played a
> part in B7?? 

Not that I can think of off-hand, but many of them have been in Dr Who,
including Simon Rouse, Graham Cole and Jeff Stewart. The woman who played
Martella used to be the barmaid in Only Fools And Horses...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 15:31:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: "U.M. Mccormack" <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Irishness (long)
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.981031152304.11397A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Susan Bennett quite rightly picked me up on the very general statement:

>>>(The Irish Catholic identity is *entirely* bounded up with the fight
for freedom and opposition to a perceived oppressive regime, of course!!)<<<

And very appropriately demanded an explanation:

>>I don't understand what you're trying to say or whether or not it was in
jest.  I expect it is because your  statement is so general... <snip>
... Having lived in England I can see that there are differences, but I
don't recognise your description of Irish catholicism from anything in my
experience.<<

<Una thinks: Curses! I don't expect anyone to actually *read* the junk I
come out with, never mind pick me up on it!! ;) >

Yes, it's an extreme generalization, and made mainly because I was typing
very quickly at work and playing with ideas, but extreme nonetheless.
Perhaps a much better way of phrasing it would have been to say, 'the type
of Irish Catholic identity *within which I was brought up* is entirely
bound up with the fight for freedom and opposition to a perceived
oppressive regime'. I made the classic error of extrapolating from one
particular potential experience to another, and I suspect that I happened
to have had that experience because of the bizarre stretched-out nature of
my family. My grandparents left Ireland for England in the 1920s, and I
think this has had several effects on my perception/experience of Irish
Catholicism.

Firstly, their own parents had had direct experience of the fallout from
the famine, and they attributed blame in a large part to the English
government of that time. Secondly, they were very involved in the 1920s in
the struggle for independence both in Ireland and after they left.
Finally, they experienced themselves in England a very explicit
anti-Irishness which discriminated against them, and which was directed to
them as both Irish people and Catholics. In fact, my parents also
experienced this sort of bigotry as well up till about the 1970s, from
English people in general, and also a very special kind of dislike of
Irish Catholics was expressed towards them by fellow-Catholics who were
English. Perhaps then another better way of phrasing my original statement
would have been something like, 'Those Irish Catholics who left for
England developed an identity which was bound up with the fight for
freedom and opposition to a perceived oppressive regime.'

But I think I was also making a broader point. Part of this identity is
predicated upon a memory of English oppression of the Irish since, well,
pick a point in history! I think here the experience of the famine and the
fact that this led many people to leave Ireland, and the emigration which
carried on for several decades afterwards led to an extraordinary sense of
dislocation from home and hence resentment towards the English. This finds
expression up to the present day in, for example, support to Noraid. With
regards to the situation in Northern Ireland, my family perceive the
English as intruders, and are unable to accept the validity of a Unionist
cultural identity. The continuance of the Union is very much expressed by
them as an illegitimate form of government, and something which has to be
fought. I don't know to what extent this opinion is still held in the
North, although it does seem to me as if the Irish Catholic identity in
Northern Ireland has traditionally shared this view.

In addition, the emigrant sense of being away from home in turn led to a
need to reaffirm aspects of their heritage, an *essentially intrinsic*
part of which was their Catholicism. I cannot express to you how strongly
'the faith' was and *is* felt to be a link to Ireland, and how bitterly,
for example, my mother regrets my own rejection of it, since this seems to
her also to be a rejection of my past, my heritage, my identity and, I
think, she sees it as a betrayal of those of my relatives who struggled
for their faith and their families when they first came to England.

Having spent a total of four weeks of my life in Ireland, I am of course
*completely* unqualified to make any statement about the Irish Catholic
identity in Eire itself! This is one of the most interesting things about
thevery powerful nature of the émigré identity, I think, since *I* still
consider myself Irish, though to a very small degree. I know that my older
siblings, who have spent more (holiday) time in Ireland than I have,
consider themselves as Irish living in England, and some carry Irish
passports, even though they and our parents were born here in the UK.

As for whether or not I was jesting - I think those exclamation marks were
self-deprecatory, and were aimed mostly at what was once my own sense of
duality in my cultural identity, or else they were aimed in sympathy at an
audience which has heard me rant about this topic at length for many, many
hours, with whom you are all probably now very sympathetic!

Thanks for calling me to task, Susan. I would be very interested in
hearing what you have to say and I hope my generalization wasn't, in its
crudity, offensive in any way.

All the best.

Una

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 00:25:51 -0000
From: "Susan Bennett" <susanb@iol.ie>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Irishness (long)
Message-Id: <199811010018.AAA01568@mail.iol.ie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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Before I start I should say that this is very off-topic, but I have
kept it on list in case some of you may be interested.

Una said:

>>>Thanks for calling me to task, Susan. I would be very interested
in
hearing what you have to say and I hope my generalization wasn't, in
its
crudity, offensive in any way.<<<

I didn't take any offense :-)  but I think that my experiences over
the years have, like yours, coloured my opinions, and may have made
me too defensive on the matter, and I'm sorry if I overreacted. 
Thank you for explaining where you're coming from in this Una, and I
am really happy that it hasn't caused any ill-feeling because that is
the last thing I would  want. 

I should explain my background first, and then go on to some of the
points in your mail.  I was born here in Ireland, my family moved to
England when I was a year old and returned here when I was 15.  We
were brought up, particularly by my father, to think of ourselves as
Irish, so although I effectively grew up as an English citizen I was
always aware of my heritage, and the history of the Irish people. 
(Religion was stressed and we attended Catholic schools, but not
really as a part of our Irishness.)
To me it didn't matter much, but over the years I began to realise
that where I came from did matter to a lot of people.  I ended up
defending the Irish, trying to explain that no one nation could be
all bad; that we, the ordinary citizens, were not responsible for the
deaths in the troubles and that we did *not* all support the
terrorist activities.  Strangely enough, most people I knew in those
days seemed to equate being Irish with that organisation, and it
taught me to be ashamed of my nationality at the same time as I was
defending it.  One thing I love about fandom is that there is
virtually no prejudice as regards one's nationality, and that when
cultural differences show themselves people are inclined to talk
about them first.  

>>>Finally, they experienced themselves in England a very explicit
anti-Irishness which discriminated against them, and which was
directed to
them as both Irish people and Catholics. In fact, my parents also
experienced this sort of bigotry as well up till about the 1970s,<<<

So did mine, and so did I.  We moved back here in '79, and I remember
that after one of the ira (small latters deliberate) attrocities my
mother was spat upon as she did her grocery shopping, so I appreciate
what you had to deal with.  I'll say at this point that I have
*nothing* against England or the English, please believe me.  In some
ways I will always consider it home and I have some wonderful friends
there, but that doesn't change the fact that there are people like
this in every nation, including the Irish.  I'm really not having a
go at *any* nation here.  When my family did move back I hated having
to go, but cheered myself up with the thought that at least I would
be accepted here because I was Irish.  Wrong.  I then spent as much
time defending the English as I had previously done defending the
Irish!  At least I was consistant *wry grin*

>>>English people in general, and also a very special kind of dislike
of
Irish Catholics was expressed towards them by fellow-Catholics who
were
English.<<<

This I did not see, but I was possibly too young to notice.  It is
really only since I have had an internet connection that I've begun
to worry about the perception of Irish catholics abroad, not just in
England.  I know it is probably only a very small minority, but some
people have been surprised to find that we are not all practicing
catholics.  I was even more surprised to find that some people think
we all refuse to practice birth control, have very large families,
attend church every Sunday and do everything the pope tells us.  I
realise from what you said Una that the perceptions people have can
go back in time and this would account for the difference, and I
realise that most people don't think like this any longer, but
somehow it hits off  the "thick Irish Paddy" image that I just loath
and detest.  I don't mind it in humour, and thankfully it's becoming
more and more rare in serious discussion.

>>>would have been something like, 'Those Irish Catholics who left
for
England developed an identity which was bound up with the fight for
freedom and opposition to a perceived oppressive regime.'<<<

Although I have never experienced this I have heard that it happened
a lot, and have no problem at all believing it.

>>>But I think I was also making a broader point. Part of this
identity is
predicated upon a memory of English oppression of the Irish since,
well,
pick a point in history! I think here the experience of the famine
and the
fact that this led many people to leave Ireland, and the emigration
which
carried on for several decades afterwards led to an extraordinary
sense of
dislocation from home and hence resentment towards the English.<<<

I completely agree with you here, and only have a problem with this
when it strays into politics.  I realise that a lot of this was
political but it was also about survival, which is why I make the
distinction.

>>>regards to the situation in Northern Ireland, my family perceive
the
English as intruders, and are unable to accept the validity of a
Unionist
cultural identity. The continuance of the Union is very much
expressed by
them as an illegitimate form of government, and something which has
to be
fought. I don't know to what extent this opinion is still held in the
North, although it does seem to me as if the Irish Catholic identity
in
Northern Ireland has traditionally shared this view.<<<

I'll have to pass on most of that subject because I really don't know
enough about Catholic identity in Northern Ireland to comment on it,
having lived only in the South.  This might seem hypocritical in view
of what I've already said, but those were comments on how the
situation touched my life both in England and here in the South, and
as I've never lived in the North I cannot follow the complexities of
the situation enough to give you a practical opinion.

I do, however, have an opinion based on emotion and no fact at all
(!) and it is that I would have problems trying to defend that view
myself.  I'm sorry Una, I know it's a valid point of view, it's just
my own experiences that have made me unreasonable on this one.  My
difficulties with this are not because I don't believe it, but
because I believe that the Irish lost the right to this justified
resentment when a small minority started carrying out attrocities
against English people, especially civillians.  In my opinion, the
English were not oppressive enough to justify the number of lives
that have been lost when it could have been done by peaceful means. 
I realise that this is a very personal opinion and I'm sorry if I
have offended anyone by it, but the shame of having to try to explain
to my school friends why they should not hate the whole Irish nation
(and me!) because of it has coloured my judgement somewhat.

>>>In addition, the emigrant sense of being away from home in turn
led to a need to reaffirm aspects of their heritage, an *essentially
intrinsic*
part of which was their Catholicism. I cannot express to you how
strongly
'the faith' was and *is* felt to be a link to Ireland,<<<

This reminds me of a programme I watched a few years ago (I forget
the name) in which a Greek man stated that traditions which were
alive and well in Greek areas of the USA were long dead in Greece.  I
don't know how true that is but it does seems relevant to this topic.
 I can still see elements of what you describe in country areas, but
in the 19 years I have lived here I don't see it in the cities, and
sometimes it feels strange when people expect one to be very
religeous. 

>>>for example, my mother regrets my own rejection of it, since this
seems to her also to be a rejection of my past, my heritage, my
identity and, I think, she sees it as a betrayal of those of my
relatives who struggled for their faith and their families when they
first came to England.<<<

I'm sorry that it upsets you both.  I suppose I'm fortunate that my
own mother much prefers English catholicism, and as my father follows
no religion I don't get into much trouble with either of them.

>>>thevery powerful nature of the émigré identity, I think, since *I*
still
consider myself Irish, though to a very small degree. I know that my
older
siblings, who have spent more (holiday) time in Ireland than I have,
consider themselves as Irish living in England, and some carry Irish
passports, even though they and our parents were born here in the
UK.<<<

My family is the opposite, as my brother holds an English passport
and my sister an Australian one.  

>>>As for whether or not I was jesting - I think those exclamation
marks were self-deprecatory, and were aimed mostly at what was once
my own sense of duality in my cultural identity,<<<

Oh, do I know what you mean!!!  I sometimes think my true home is a
rock in the middle of the Irish sea, between the two countries :-) 

>>>or else they were aimed in sympathy at an audience which has heard
me rant about this topic at length for many, many
hours, with whom you are all probably now very sympathetic!<<<

Then they will also be sympathetic to the audience who is heartily
sick of my rants on the subject ;-)  Can't let us go anywhere... <g>

I hope this has been some help in explaining why I asked you for a
clarification, and again, thank you for being so honest in your
reply.  I think we have more in common that we realised :-)

Susan Bennett

   
   
       


 

------------------------------

Date: Sun,  1 Nov 98 05:31:00 GMT 
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] JtVS, religion
Message-Id: <199811010601.GAA24095@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

K. M. Wilcox, I very much like the first installment of Jenna the Vampire
Slayer.  The unfortunate Romer and Lester sound strangely familiar <giggle>.
And so appropriate to Halloween, as you noted.

I have read the religion discussion with great interest but can't think of
anything to add offhand.  Una, you said that "Faith of Our Fathers" is a
Catholic hymn?!  Interesting.  It was sung fairly often in the Presbyterian
church of my childhood, and I had a vague idea that it had something to do
with the Huguenots in France being persecuted for being Protestants!  I
wonder where it really originated, and who stole it from who?

Hmm-- maybe I do have a thought on the subject, after all.  It occurs to me
that in addition to government suppression of religion, which we've been
talking about, there are also many cases of governments promoting religion
and using it for their own ends.  An example from my own area of expertise:
the Japanese government in the late nineteenth century promoting Shinto,
especially the emperor-worship aspects, as an aid to national unity.  And
didn't the Soviet Union promote atheism almost as if it were a religion?
Not to mention the cult of Chairman Mao and the Little Red Book, whose
followers believed, or at the very least felt obliged to pretend to believe,
that the Thought of Mao would solve every conceivable problem.

In B7, there is the cult on Cygnus Alpha, of course.  I can't really see the
Federation getting into religion per se, but I can certainly see a
personality cult developing-- with strong official encouragement-- around
some charismatic leader like Servalan.  Then, perhaps, such a person might
be de facto deified after death?

Sarah T.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 21:32:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Redemption-stewards
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1031203213-9eeRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Fri 30 Oct, fifitrix wrote:
> Me too...me too...me too!!!!!!  I haven't had any written confirmations
> either (although - Judith, I did receive my Redemption T-Shirt - thanks very
> much!)  And I haven't had any progress reports either.....at all.......or
> anything!

I think that one fell foul of our original membership secretary's illness. 
Jenni paid for you at Deliverance, but didn't have your address.  Although we
did get your address afterwards, I suspect it failed to get into the records
that were passed onto Ruth when she took over the job.

I gather Ruth's contacting you, hopefully all will be fine.

Judith

PS.  Just had a fun day with Rachel, the lady who's doing the Redemption puppet
workshop with me.  She loves making them and I love using them.  I've collected
marionettes since I was about ten.  Her Blake and Avon puppets are really great.

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 1 Nov 1998 08:45:07 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] JtVS, religion
Message-ID: <c5b75615.363c65e3@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Sarah wrote:

> Una, you said that "Faith of Our Fathers" is a
>  Catholic hymn?!  Interesting.  It was sung fairly often in the Presbyterian
>  church of my childhood, and I had a vague idea that it had something to do
>  with the Huguenots in France being persecuted for being Protestants!  I
>  wonder where it really originated, and who stole it from who?

I found "Faith of Our Fathers" in "Ritual Song," a Catholic hymnal.  The
actual title is given as "A Living Faith."  The song origin (at least this
version) is credited: text by Frederick Faber, tune by St. Catherine.  There's
no date given for the song, but the dates given for Faber and St. Catherine
suggest that it was written in the mid 1800s.  

Attending various liturgies in Catholic and Protestant churches, I've noticed
many familiar hymns are common to more than one denomination.

Carol Mc

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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #275
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