From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #303 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/303 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 303 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Gotcha all. [B7L] Chain snowballs. [B7L] In laws and out laws... Re: [B7L] A New Character Re: [B7L] A New Character [B7L] Re: Gotcha all Re: [B7L] A New Character Re: [B7L] A New Character RE: [B7L] A New Character [B7L] Manchester Meet, Saturday December 12 Re: [B7L] A New Character Re: [B7L] A New Character Fwd: [B7L] A New Character [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other" Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 00:08:57 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: "Calle Dybedahl" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Gotcha all. Message-Id: <199812080020.AAA09085@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Calle Dybedahl > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > Subject: Re: [B7L] Gotcha all. > Date: 06 December 1998 19:08 > > Spam and chain-letter-type things are not welcome on this list. Please > don't do that again. Well, it wasn't either- just trying to inject a little festive fun. Sorry that humour doesn't seem to be so welcome. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 02:00:38 GMT From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Chain snowballs. Message-ID: <366c872b.165787721@cyberplanet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just saw Dangermouse's rejoinder to Calle -- that the Internet snowball he sent was "not a chain letter." It most certainly *is* a chain letter; I've seen those confounded snowballs all over the net, and I'm glad Calle spoke up in response. I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age. Thanks, Calle! Meredith Dixon dixonm@access.mountain.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Dec 1998 18:55:03 -0800 From: penny_kjelgaard@juno.com (Penny L Kjelgaard) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] In laws and out laws... Message-ID: <19981207.190233.-217145.0.penny_kjelgaard@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My darling 7 year old (remember when she was 5?) daughter has given me another memorable exchange. Missy was practicing getting up with her hands joined behind her back (hence the following conversation,) and of course Travis entered her mind. Missy: Mamma, Servalan was chasing both Blake and Travis...and for no good reason! Mamma: She had a very good reason. They were both OUTLAWS. Missy: And what was she...and INLAW? Peace, Penny ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 01:02:28 EST From: LordRab@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <10c7ee97.366cc0f4@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-07 09:21:38 EST, you write: << Kerr Avon) : "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others" >> Nice line! Though the episode of Voyager you mention is one I actually almost liked. They may have chosen the "PC" solution, but I didn't get the feel that anyone was happy with the outcome. So what would the B7 folks have done? Avon, as you pointed, probably would have kept the data. What of the others? Deborah Rose >> I "almost" liked that episode myself ! I would have prefered a bit more debate about the ethics of using Cardasian medical data obtained from gruesome experiments on their prisoners. Although to their credit, the Star Trek universe does not rely over heavily on rock 'em sock 'em fight scenes ( but look out for Data's "lock and load" scene from the upcoming movie) they still manage to water down the salient points when they dare to be different. I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from other times by contemporary standards. Rather than say what I think the B7 folks would have done I'll say what I would have had them do ( After all, they are fictional characters and at the mercy of writers, heh heh ). In that future, people would have accepted that most of our medical data has usually been obtained from experimenting on live prisoners, albeit creatures slightly lower on the food chain than us, and that even delicious Orange Tang probably came at higher price than we'll ever know. ( for all you Brits, Tang powder was developed by NASA as an artificial orange juice substitute for Astronauts in their top secret laboratories and then put on the market on the shelf next to the Spam) Will the future be more humane? Will humans find a substitute for lab mice? The B7 universe is not quite the Age of Enlightenment Part 2, but Star Trek's future humans are knockin' on Utopias door ! Yikes ! Will Utopia be that smarmy? Blake and crew would keep the data without a second thought and move on to some planet for a holiday only to find that the planet is actually the pet asteroid of an inter galactic entity from the WalMartian Cluster and that the delectible fruits and berries that they have been eating are really.......... Well, anyway, I am reminded of a scene from 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" when Ford Prefect and Co. are dining at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe, and is revolted by the creature who offers up it's own succulent shanks as the main course. One man's stew is another man's best friend. Cheers, Rab "If vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians eat?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:19:46 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rab said - > Will the future be more humane? Will humans find a substitute for lab mice? > The B7 universe is not quite the Age of Enlightenment Part 2, but Star Trek's > future humans are knockin' on Utopias door ! I've been thinking lately about what they call the 'Whig view of history' The rough idea is that Whig's see history as progress ('things can only get better') they believe in reason and meritocracy. The contrast is with 'Tories' who see history as retreat, are pessimistic about reason, and believe in established power relations. The reason I've been thinking about this is that I think the so-called left/liberal governments we have at present in places like the USA, the UK, Germany etc. are actually Whig governments. I think this makes them easier to understand, rather than thinking about left and right. Anyway, that aside, I think Star Trek is Whig SF. Enlightenment, redemption, science, progress. I'm not knocking it, just mentioning it. The glib thing to say would be that B7 is Tory SF. However I really don't think it is, because it is so negative about the weaknesses and smugness of established powers, and relatively positive about the idea of smashing them up. Anyway, unlike Penny I think this makes the B7 writers freer than the ST writers, because while there aren't any 'goodies' in B7, there aren't any (real) baddies in ST. In line with the Whig view there are just people who haven't yet become enlightened by progress. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 08:50:54 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Gotcha all Message-ID: <199812080851_MC2-62D6-C871@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh... when I saw a sort of circle and the word "squish" I assumed that Dangermouse had finally come up with a picture of the alleged extra-marital shagging. I must have spent too much time on Space City, I suppose. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Dec 1998 19:10:32 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <366C98A8.6BF2@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LordRab@aol.com wrote: > All I could think of was a line from my favorite Blake's 7 character > (surprise!!!! It's Kerr Avon): > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others" Hail Lord Rab! and welcome to the list. Happily, none of the B7 characters are overly zealous when it comes to morals - of anyone. This Federated space is a grey, grey place. But that's what makes the "danger" real. The potential for harm. Yes, in this series people can get killed. And, happily, do! The Trek franchise has shown us how dull it is when we know that nobody (except nameless red shirts) will ever suffer injury or death. Or even wounded pride. If there is so much as a minor disagreement, they will always all "make nice" by episode end. Gan steps forward now and again, as he did in Shadow, to take a moral stand. And look how tiresome it made him. I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings: Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity. Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-) I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad case that he's nearly a cartoon. re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? > "Give me ambiguity or give me something else" hahahaha Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:12:42 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-Id: <199812081604.KAA25678@pemberton.magnolia.net> Pat P said: >re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the >Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research >on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or >added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9 episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot points in advance. Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 16:25:37 -0000 From: "Gregory Graham" To: Subject: RE: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <000d01be22c7$63b95840$82ba46c2@barny.ascada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As far as I know this knowledge along with the information on rocketry from the V2(orig R4?) program is still available. Since the Apollo program was based on V2 technology, where would sci-fi hopes and dreams be without ex-nazi scientists? Mind you if you would like to know about unethical research, ask the Koreans about Japanese scientists. Apparently they make Nazi, and Federation, scientists look positively wet. Greg -----Original Message----- From: pussnboots@geocities.com [mailto:pussnboots@geocities.com] Sent: 08 December 1998 03:11 To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? > "Give me ambiguity or give me something else" hahahaha Pat P ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 13:32:50 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:space-city@world.std.com" , "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] Manchester Meet, Saturday December 12 Message-ID: <199812081333_MC2-62EA-7FBB@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mainly to celebrate the arrival of Nicola Collie, well-known New Zealand Space Citizen and Servalan lookalike, on England's shores, a few of the B7 fans in the Manchester area are planning to get together on the afternoon/evening of Saturday, December 12. If any lurkers or people we have unforgiveably forgotten to tell about it are interested, the plan is to gather at the Fab Cafe round about three o'clock, and eventually go for a curry in Rusholme. The Fab Cafe is (allegedly, I haven't been there yet) at 111 Portland Street (that's the road from Piccadilly Gardens to Oxford Street, if you're as vague as me about names). If you're coming from Piccadilly, it is said to be on the left-hand side, somewhere between Princess Street and Oxford Street. So if you're coming from Oxford Street, conversely, it's quite soon on the right. There should be a free-standing bill board thing on the pavement outside. Anyone wanting to check with me for details email 101637.2064@compuserve.com. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:29:28 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <19981208212929.29590.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Alison said: >Anyway, unlike Penny I think this makes the B7 writers freer than the >ST writers, because while there aren't any 'goodies' in B7, there aren't >any (real) baddies in ST. In line with the Whig view there are just people >who haven't yet become enlightened by progress. > Hey, are you calling me a Trekkie? Grr! Lazeron-destructors at dawn! What I *meant* was that it's very difficult to have Good triumph over Evil on a weekly basis in a universe where there *is* no Good. Much like our own (in my humbly cynical opinion). I don't *need* Good to triumph over Evil in order to feel good drama has been perpetrated. But I know lots of people who do, and they watch Star Trek and the Money Keeps Rolling In. -- Penny "I am not Spock" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 13:33:58 PST From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <19981208213358.21033.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Pat had responded to Lord Rab: I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad case that he's nearly a cartoon. All Right then, I must admit, I do like Picard, priggish and all (smile) First, he is a Frenchman with a British accent (smirk)and because he's unashamedly bald. ( ha- hee). And of I identify with Barkely- nervous, antisocial, smart and cute. Aww... But I like the B7 series because of the not-so-clean characters and (what seems to me at least) the extrapolation of the British Empire. I find the politics and manuvering quite fascinating indeed. However, I don't think that the two series can be compared- too diametric. But I think there can justifiable criticism of both. Edith ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 18:26:30 EST From: LordRab@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <85c41ce6.366db5a6@aol.com> Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_913159591_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_913159591_boundary Content-ID: <0_913159591@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-12-08 11:15:51 EST, msdelta@magnolia.net writes: > >I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on >posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9 >episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot >points in advance. Good Point Lorna...sorry, but I thought it was a rerun, I watch the Star Trek stuff so rarely that I just didn't consider it night be a new episode. I hope we didn't ruin the story for you more than the writers already have. > >Lorna B. >"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" > Yum! Regards, Rab "I practice safe eating, I only eat condoments" --part0_913159591_boundary Content-ID: <0_913159591@inet_out.mail.magnolia.net.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (rly-zb03.mail.aol.com [172.31.41.3]) by air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v53.20) with SMTP; Tue, 08 Dec 1998 11:15:51 -0500 Received: from samantha.lysator.liu.se (samantha.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.202]) by rly-zb03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id LAA23265; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 11:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from list@localhost) by samantha.lysator.liu.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA02601; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:11:29 +0100 (MET) Resent-Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 17:11:29 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: samantha.lysator.liu.se: list set sender to blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se using -f Message-Id: <199812081604.KAA25678@pemberton.magnolia.net> From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 10:12:42 -0600 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Resent-Message-ID: <"nHyiMB.A.lo.v-Ub2"@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Resent-From: blakes7@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15473 X-Loop: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Precedence: list Resent-Sender: blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Pat P said: >re: destroying the medical records obtained "under duress" by the >Cardassian doctors on Voyager. What did the Allies do with Nazi research >on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or >added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9 episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot points in advance. Lorna B. "Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!" --part0_913159591_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 15:56:13 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other" Message-ID: <19981208235613.24905.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Penny "I am not Spock" Dreadful: >I don't *need* Good to triumph over Evil in order to feel good drama >has been perpetrated. But I know lots of people who do, and they >watch Star Trek and the Money Keeps Rolling In. I know B7 is supposed to be about shades of grey, but some characters are less grey than others. Servalan's character and motives were explored in some episodes, but one could make a case for saying she was just a greedy, evil gangster. And then the Federation itself was never portrayed as anything but evil. Conversely, there were some characters who could genuinely have been cast as "good". Gan is the obvious choice; another example might be, on account of their devotion to the "Rule of Life", the clonemasters. There were examples of good and evil in B7 -- of that I'm sure. It's just that they weren't plastered all over every plot. For me, the biggest difference between Star Trek and B7 is that I've never watched an episode of ST and come away from it wishing the events I'd just witnessed hadn't happened. [I may come away from an episode of ST wishing it had never been filmed in the first place, but that's just me...] Cheers, -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:09:15 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character) Message-ID: <19981209080915.26407@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Still haven't caught up on months of List stuff, gave up and started reading recent postings, and saw: On Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:10:32PM -0800, Pat Patera wrote: > LordRab@aol.com wrote: > > All I could think of was a line from my favorite Blake's 7 character > > (surprise!!!! It's Kerr Avon): > > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others" > Gan steps forward now and again, as he did in Shadow, to take a moral > stand. And look how tiresome it made him. Oi! No fair. Did not! (Kathryn jumps up and down) Blake takes a moral stand (the Federation is evil, I will destroy it) and he is not tiresome, yet when Gan takes a moral stand, he is? *If* it were true that Gan was tiresome, then it must be some other factor, rather than "taking a moral stand" that makes him so. A lack of anger, perhaps. Or a lack of charisma. But not the moral stand itself. Mind you, Gan isn't tiresome anyway. Unless you think Cally is tiresome too? She was rather fond of the moral stand herself. > I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can > empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings: > Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon > knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's > laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's > loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity. > Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't > share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-) Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't make Gan stupid. (There, Judith, do I get my oak leaves now? ) > I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect > and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only > one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad > case that he's nearly a cartoon. I have to toss in this perfect quote I found on the net when TNG was but a youngster -- "I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action, humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with friendship)." - Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991 -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #303 **************************************