From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #304 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/304 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 304 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] A New Character Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs. Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs. [B7L] Good - Bad - I'm the one with the DSV. [B7L] Re: ethics [B7L] Re: ethics [B7L] Gan and Avon Re: [B7L] A New Character [B7L] ADMIN: List downtime Re: [B7L] A New Character Re: [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other" RE: [B7L] Re: ethics Fw: [B7L] Chain snowballs. [B7L] A New Character [B7L] Oak Leaf Re: [B7L] Gan and Avon [B7L] Re:Servalan tape Re: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character [B7L] HORIZON - Zine Order Department [B7L] The League of Gan appreciators - was Gan and Avon Fwd: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character) Fwd: [B7L] A New Character Fwd: [B7L] A New Character ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:24:35 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <19981209082435.08525@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:02:28AM -0500, LordRab@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-12-07 09:21:38 EST, you write: > > << Kerr Avon) : > > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others" > >> > > Nice line! Though the episode of Voyager you mention is one I actually > almost liked. They may have chosen the "PC" solution, but I didn't get the > feel that anyone was happy with the outcome. > So what would the B7 folks have done? Avon, as you pointed, probably would > have kept the data. What of the others? Deborah Rose >> > > > I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from > other times by contemporary standards. Why not? They happen to be the only standards you have, the ones you have now. It makes just as much sense to say that what is wrong in one age is right in another as to say that what is wrong on a Tuesday is right on a Monday. Surely a vegetarian who is one for moral reasons, thinks that animals suffered just as much when eaten in the 12th century as they do now, and therefore it is just as wrong to do, no matter when in history you happen to be. If he had been transported back in time to the 12th century, he wouldn't suddenly start eating meat, would he? (Sorry, I've been reading G. K. Chesterson recently. (-8 ) > Rather than say what I think the B7 > folks would have done I'll say what I would have had them do ( After all, they > are fictional characters and at the mercy of writers, heh heh ). Not if the writer actually listens to the characters, as all good writers do. In that case, the writer is at the mercy of the characters. > In that > future, people would have accepted that most of our medical data has usually > been obtained from experimenting on live prisoners, albeit creatures slightly > lower on the food chain than us, Well, getting back to the original question, as to how the characters would react to questionable data... Yes, Avon would have kept the data. And would have argued with Blake about it. Blake would have wanted to destroy it, for his usual sentimental reasons. Cally, perhaps, would have wanted to keep it, for a different moral reason: to redeem the suffering that those prisoners went through. That is, if the data were destroyed, then they went through all that suffering for absolutely nothing. But if the data could be used for good, to save other people, then that is a small repayment for their pain, making good come out of evil. Or maybe it would be Gan who comes up with that argument. Perhaps not: he himself has suffered from Federation medical experiments himself, that would probably give him a bias -- or it could give him an insight, from the prisoner point of view. Well, gotta go! Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Blake is sitting up in a tree. Travis is sitting up in another tree. Unless they're planning to throw nuts at one another, I don't see much of a fight developing before it gets light." -- Kerr Avon (Blake's 7: Duel [A8]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 02:13:52 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: "Meredith Dixon" , Subject: Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs. Message-Id: <199812090220.CAA05746@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I just saw Dangermouse's rejoinder to Calle -- that the Internet > snowball he sent was "not a chain letter." It most certainly > *is* a chain letter; I've seen those confounded snowballs all > over the net, and I'm glad Calle spoke up in response. > > I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny > the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received > a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age. Oh, so now I'm a spammer and chainer? Fine, I quit ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 18:44:08 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Chain snowballs. Message-ID: <19981209024408.4530.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >> I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny >> the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received >> a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age. > >Oh, so now I'm a spammer and chainer? > >Fine, I quit Can't you just put it down to experience? It's no big deal getting caught out by a chain letter: the originators started off with crude scams like "send this letter on to buy a new heart for a little boy" -- I've known a conference organiser get caught out by that one. She went and forwarded it to all of her delegates, the silly moo. But anyway, after realising that scam wasn't working any more, they tried saying "Don't read this email, otherwise your hard drive will self-destruct, oh and forward this message to as many people as you can." Now that people have got wise to that one, humour has been the latest gimmick. In all cases, the aim has been the same -- proliferation of a single message on a grand scale. To be honest, I don't know why anyone would want to do this. Maybe the originators of the chain letter are trying to establish some kind of spam database. Whatever it is, they're up to no good, and shouldn't be encouraged. Calle had no choice but to say something: he'd have been neglecting his duty as list administrator if he hadn't. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Dec 1998 19:05:04 PST From: "Penny Dreadful" To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Good - Bad - I'm the one with the DSV. Message-ID: <19981209030505.21211.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Rob said: >And then the Federation itself was never portrayed as anything but >evil. "'...I heard the Empire has a tyrannical and repressive government!' 'What form of government is that?' said Ponder Stibbons. 'A tautology,' said the Dean..." >Conversely, there were some characters who could genuinely have been >cast as "good". Gan is the obvious choice; Genuinely good, and explicitly ineffectual/powerless. Coincidence? >another example might be, on >account of their devotion to the "Rule of Life", the clonemasters. But they were working for the Evil Federation! And their response to Travis' totally pointless murder or poor red-shirted Blake Clone 1 was pretty cavalier. I wouldn't trust 'em. >There were examples of good and evil in B7 -- of that I'm sure. Definitely. I never said there weren't. Did I? Oh, yes, I did. Dang! But no guarantee that Good would win. There are black and white pieces on a chessboard, they're easy enough to tell apart if you're not blindfolded, but that doesn't tell you anything about which side will win. Or which pieces will survive. Only who to cheer for (Go, Evil, Go!). --Penny "I _am_ Spock" Dreadful ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 98 03:56:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: ethics Message-Id: <199812090416.EAA22894@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat P. asked: >What did the Allies do with Nazi research >on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or >added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? There was a case rather like this in the news about ten years or so ago, I think, although I don't remember the details and can't seem to lay hands on the info easily. It came out that some Japanese doctors who had been engaged in very nasty germ warfare experiments on Chinese prisoners in Manchuria had been pardoned by U.S. military authorities (or at least released, with no charges brought against them) in return for handing over their data. (And lest anyone succumb to nationalistic generalizations, it was a Japanese reporter who broke the story.) The feeling at the time seemed to be that if the data had been acquired accidentally, that would be one thing, but bargaining with the perps for it was immoral. I kind of suspect that this incident may have been in the mind of whoever wrote what Pat referred to. I do like the fact that moral choices in B7 are seldom cut and dried and can often be argued either way, Blake's decision at Star One being the most obvious example. I find it interesting that fans so often seem to want to disambiguate these situations-- for instance, arguing that Blake was either a saint or a monster, as the case may be-- when the ambiguity is the very thing that I find interesting. Alison, your Whig vs. Tory analysis is very intriguing, and on the whole I think I agree. I also agree that B7 doesn't really qualify as Tory SF. Perhaps there isn't really a proper political metaphor for what it is, since cynical wit does not get one very far in political situations and so is not associated with any particular party. Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 22:45:37 -0600 (EST) From: Tegan Brandi To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: ethics Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pat P. asked: > >What did the Allies do with Nazi research >on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also destroyed, or >added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? No, much of the Nazi medical research was not destroyed (I'm not sure if any was). The one instance I can think of off hand is that we know how long it takes a person to succumb to hypothermia and die. That piece of information was most definitely added to Western knowledge. It disgusts me to know what the Nazi's went through to get that information, throwing Jews into freezing water and just timing it. In my gut, though, I cannot believe we should let those people die for nothing and their suffering be completely forgotten. I think it's the right decision to use the results of those... torture tests... for the benefit of all beingkind. tegan (*) tegan@goddess.coe.missouri.edu http://goddess.coe.missouri.edu/~tegan So toss away stuff you don't need in the end But keep what's important and know who's your friend - Phish, Theme From the Bottom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Dec 1998 23:38:47 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Gan and Avon Message-ID: <38d8af81.366dfed7@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-12-08 21:05:37 EST, Kathryn wrote: << Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't make Gan stupid. >> Gan may not have been the brightest of the crew or particularly intellectual, but he had a solid common sense that I think the crew badly needed. I haven't seen all the episodes, but from the transcripts it looks like his death was when things really started to go downhill in the second season. I'm not so sure Avon was a genius either. I agree that he was very good in his area of expertise but he also did some amazingly stupid things like messing around with the Ultraworld. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:40:40 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Hey, are you calling me a Trekkie? Grr! Lazeron-destructors at dawn! > What I *meant* was that it's very difficult to have Good triumph over > Evil on a weekly basis in a universe where there *is* no Good. Much > like our own (in my humbly cynical opinion). > > I don't *need* Good to triumph over Evil in order to feel good drama > has been perpetrated. But I know lots of people who do, and they watch > Star Trek and the Money Keeps Rolling In. > > -- Penny "I am not Spock" Dreadful Oops, didn't really think you were a trekkie Penny. But point taken. I'm the one who like ST:TNG. I am reminded of Oscar Wilde's comment 'What happened in the story?' 'The good ended happily, and the bad unhappily; that's what fiction means'. At one level it is the silly comment of a silly woman with pretensions to be a romantic novelist - Miss Prism, who speaks the line. At another level it is a knowing joke for the cynical late-Victorian audience to the play. But underneath I think it's a sad comment from someone (i.e. Wilde himself) who's goodness was no defence against unhappiness. Is it a joke about the conventions of fiction, or about the dirtiness of real life? Anyway B7 seems quite a lively reposte to Wilde's theory. 'The good end happily? Not in this fiction, mate.' Alison ------------------------------ Date: 09 Dec 1998 11:10:15 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] ADMIN: List downtime Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sometime in the next 36 hours or so there's going to be work done on the cooling system in Lysator's machine room. This will probably mean that we have to shut off the mailserver, which will in turn mean that the list is going to be rather silent for a time. Barring disasters, we should be back online sometime Thursday night. -- Calle Dybedahl, qdtcall@esavionics.se, http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/ "I came out of that meeting so full of enthusiasm that I spent the next two hours updating my resume" -- Paul Tomblin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:48:11 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alison said: >I've been thinking lately about what they call the 'Whig view of history' >The rough idea is that Whigs see history as progress ('things can only >get better') they believe in reason and meritocracy. The contrast is with >'Tories' who see history as retreat, are pessimistic about reason, and >believe in established power relations. Oddly enough, this is something I've been thinking about recently as well! It's almost as if we talk to each other or something! Or are we just reading the same books? Not sure, as a Tory, whether I see history as retreat and don't believe in meritocracy, but we can take this one to the spin! ;) >Anyway, that aside, I think Star Trek is Whig SF. Enlightenment, >redemption, science, progress. I'm not knocking it, just mentioning it. Ooh, definitely. But what's interesting about the Whig interpretation of history, as well, is that it also acted as a justification for empire: bringing reason and enlightenment to benighted parts of the globe. You don't get this (really) in 'Star Trek' (though they seem worryingly able to chuck the Prime Directive whenever it suits). Would the B7 Federation use this idea as the rationale for its expansionism? >The glib thing to say would be that B7 is Tory SF. However I really don't >think it is, because it is so negative about the weaknesses and smugness >of established powers, and relatively positive about the idea of smashing >them up. If not necessarily successfully! Also, Toryism (particularly as it transmutes in the 19th century into Conservatism) puts a great deal of primacy on the potential of individual human action: this brings out in B7 the issue of individual resistance, but combines it with traditional Tory cynicism about human nature. Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 11:55:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] "Good and evil, there never is one without the other" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rob said: >I know B7 is supposed to be about shades of grey, but some characters >are less grey than others. Servalan's character and motives were >explored in some episodes, but one could make a case for saying she was >just a greedy, evil gangster. And then the Federation itself was never >portrayed as anything but evil. Although I like the strong suggestion given in 'Breakdown' from Julian Glover's character (Kane?) that Blake and crew are wrong because they are trying to destroy the main force for order in the galaxy. This is similar to themes explored in 'Star One': whether the destruction of something bad is a worse evil than letting it stand, but adds the extra dimension of whether there are circumstances in which such a powerful force is a necessity. I like the idea that Servalan is both committed to upholding the Federation *and* is a greedy, evil gangster! I don't think the two are mutually exclusive, tho' one could come up with situations in which they were. Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 16:06:30 +-100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: ethics Message-ID: <01BE238D.E31026C0@cmg71700449> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >Pat P. asked: >> >>What did the Allies do with Nazi research >>on human endurance obtained during WWII? Was this also >destroyed, or >>added to the body of Western knowledge? Was it the right decision? And Tegan Brandi answered: >No, much of the Nazi medical research was not destroyed (I'm not >sure if >any was). The one instance I can think of off hand is that we know how >long it takes a person to succumb to hypothermia and die. That piece >of >information was most definitely added to Western knowledge. >It disgusts me to know what the Nazi's went through to get that >information, throwing Jews into freezing water and just timing it. In my >gut, though, I cannot believe we should let those people die for nothing >and their suffering be completely forgotten. I think it's the right >decision to use the results of those... torture tests... for the benefit >of all beingkind. I don't quite see the moral dilemma here: on the one hand those nazi's (and those Japanese doctors) were downright evil and I hope as many of them as possible have been punished for what they've done. The mere thought that some of those monsters are still walking around freely makes me shiver. On the other hand, the information about hypothermia and suchlike is now there. Information is not good or evil. It just exists, and saying that it shouldn't be used because of the way it was obtained is like saying that the furniture of nazi's shouldn't ever be sold and reused, because an evil person once used it. Using the information does no harm to anyone: the victims won't be any more or less hurt than they already were. Not using it because of some moral stance does hurt people, and those are hardly ever the people who are taking this stand. So not using this information would in fact be an immoral thing to do. Wow, did I just prove that the Voyager guys did something immoral? Must be a first! Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 15:34:23 -0000 From: "Fifitrix" To: Subject: Fw: [B7L] Chain snowballs. Message-ID: <001601be2389$66534ee0$1b649384@fms01963.unichem.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I didn't find the "Internet snowball fight" particularly funny >the first time -- several weeks ago, by the way -- that I received >a posting, and the joke definitely hasn't improved with age. >Meredith Dixon And I'll bet that you were more tolerant of it the first time you saw it. I for one thought it was amusing and I'm not particularily tolerant of chain letters. I think that Calle is right to set the ground rules on this but some of the other treatment of Dangermouse has been a bit harsh. DM - I hope you stay. Fifitrix ------------------------------ Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:39:52 -0800 From: "Ma.James" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: >Pat Patera wrote: >I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang >perfect and self-confident. But occasionally they do something right and manage to introduce an interesting character. Ensign Ro Laren is one of them. She is a marvelous character and would have been a stunning addition to either of the B7 crews. After reading a crossover story with Avon and Ro I went on a hunt for TNG eps with this character so I could see what she was like. She turned out to be a fascinating character. And I was delighted to see that the author of the story was true to the character (as she was with Avon). Ro was a perfect match for Avon I caught myself wishing she had been part of B7. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 09:22:17 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Oak Leaf Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 08 Dec, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > Mind you, Gan isn't tiresome anyway. Unless you think Cally is > tiresome too? She was rather fond of the moral stand herself. > > > I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can > > empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings: > > Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon > > knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's > > laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's > > loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity. > > Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't > > share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-) > > Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't > make Gan stupid. > > (There, Judith, do I get my oak leaves now? ) You do indeed. Kathryn Andersen is hereby awarded the Oak Leaf of the Gan Defence League for her defence of a frequently unappreciated, but no less deserving character. The oak leaf (for those new to the list) is chosen to represent Gan's sterling and solid qualities, his reliability, strength and upstanding nature. When I get to be a little old lady, Gan is the character I would rely on to help me across the road. Gan isn't stupid. He's just average, and that's difficult when you're surrounded by people like Avon and Jenna. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 13:45:22 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Gan and Avon Message-ID: <23b29450.366ec542@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tiger M wrote: > Gan may not have been the brightest of the crew or particularly intellectual, > but he had a solid common sense that I think the crew badly needed. I'd agree. He also had a degree of maturity that the others lacked. I'm so glad to see Gan defenders speaking up on his behalf. He was competent and dependable. It was Gan who ended up in the leadership position when the London's prisoners were dumped on Cygnus Alpha. I especially liked the quiet way he assumed that responsibility. > I'm not so sure Avon was a genius either. I agree that he was very good in > his area of expertise but he also did some amazingly stupid things like > messing around with the Ultraworld. And even in his field he wasn't the best. In SPACEFALL they mention the person who caught him. And both Ensor and Muller appeared to have an innovative genius with computers that Avon lacked. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 19:09:52 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson To: Afenech , Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re:Servalan tape Message-ID: <366EBCEE.E3FF6268@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat asked re the Jacqueline Pearce in conversation tape: "Steve could you look see if it has an identifiying marks -smile- so that we OutWorlders might possibly get one - or - a thought- is it the same one you have advertised on your page Judith?" It gives the address: Maximum Power, 26 Chalsey Road, Brockley, London SE4 1YW I don't know who else is selling it, but I expect Horizon is. -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:40:10 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <4If56EAqAub2EwfR@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <85c41ce6.366db5a6@aol.com>, LordRab@aol.com writes >In a message dated 98-12-08 11:15:51 EST, msdelta@magnolia.net writes: > >> >>I would like to ask that people put spoiler space or some sort of warning on >>posts like these. Not everyone has ready access to the new Voyager or DS9 >>episodes and would like a chance to enjoy them without knowing the plot >>points in advance. > >Good Point Lorna...sorry, but I thought it was a rerun, I watch the Star Trek >stuff so rarely that I just didn't consider it night be a new episode. I hope >we didn't ruin the story for you more than the writers already have. > Erm... even the reruns in the US may be on before the episode is shown on a non-pay channel in other countries. As I know only too well after my recent journeying back and forth across the Atlantic. -- Julia Jones ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 20:52:23 +0000 From: JMR To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] HORIZON - Zine Order Department Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981209205223.00885710@mail.clara.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Horizon" Club, Zine Ordering... It has recently become obvious that a fair bit of my mail (both Horizon and personal) has gone missing/been stolen en route to me. If you have sent in a zine/script/NL order and not received it, there's a good chance it has not reached me (though due to a fractured wrist I've been a little behind with orders that DID reach me - sorry!) Due to these problems, the zine ordering department of Horizon will be taken over by Gillian Puddle, Rowbarns Lodge, Guildford Road, East Horsley, Surrey KT24 5RY within the next week or so. If you have had a problem, could you either email me within the next few days (before the change-over), or drop Gillian a line, so that we can attempt to establish what problems need to be sorted out. If your cheque was dated before Aug/Sept, and hasn't been cashed, it almost certainly didn't reach me, which makes it all the more important for you to get in touch with one or other of us. "Horizon" apologises for any problems and delays. Hopefully all will now be sorted out very quickly and all orders brought up to date. I shall be remaining on the committee, but doing jobs that don't require things to posted to me until I can find out who's been nicking my mail!!! Judith J.M. Rolls jager@clara.net ---------------- Steedophilia: The John Steed Website ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:59:44 +1100 From: "Afenech" To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] The League of Gan appreciators - was Gan and Avon Message-Id: <00225784332651@domain4.bigpond.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Tiger M wrote: ________________ > > Gan may not have been the brightest of the crew or particularly > intellectual, but he had a solid common sense that I think the crew badly >needed. and Carol McC (in part) added: ____________________ > I'd agree. He also had a degree of maturity that the others lacked. I'm so > glad to see Gan defenders speaking up on his behalf. He was competent and >dependable. Though overshadowed by his rather more glittering crew mates -smile- if you think about Gan there is much about him to admire - as Carol says he is dependable - an invaluable asset in a small team - and loyal - another fine quality at least to my mind, but not thoughtlessly loyal - if he questions then you feel it is a *serious* question, one worthwhile considering. And yes as Carol also notes competent - I find it admirable that he manages to learn enough to be able to be left in command - as he is in 'Shadow' - and I also admire the way he patiently counters the questioning of his competence as the others prepare to teleport - he is far from stupid - just, it seems to me anyway, uneducated - but given the chance he learns very well. I also like the caring side of him, the side that assumed reponsibility for medical matters. And, just my perception, there is a quiet goodness about him that I find very attractive. Pat F ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:19:34 EST From: LordRab@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character) Message-ID: <15c14939.366f21a6@aol.com> Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_913252751_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_913252751_boundary Content-ID: <0_913252751@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-12-08 21:05:37 EST, kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes: > >I have to toss in this perfect quote I found on the net when TNG was >but a youngster -- >"I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action, > humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like > it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with > friendship)." > - Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991 > >-- > _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen ******************************************************* *** YOUR ATTENTION PLEASE...... Will 7 of 9 please report to the airlock.... --part0_913252751_boundary Content-ID: <0_913252751@inet_out.mail.welkin.apana.org.au.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-za02.mx.aol.com (rly-za02.mail.aol.com [172.31.36.98]) by air-za04.mail.aol.com (v53.20) with SMTP; Tue, 08 Dec 1998 21:05:37 1900 Received: from samantha.lysator.liu.se (samantha.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.202]) by rly-za02.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id VAA10276; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:05:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from list@localhost) by samantha.lysator.liu.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00410; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 03:01:31 +0100 (MET) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 03:01:31 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: samantha.lysator.liu.se: list set sender to blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se using -f MBOX-Line: From kat Tue Dec 8 21:09:15 1998 remote from welkin Message-ID: <19981209080915.26407@welkin.apana.org.au> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:09:15 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Tiresome Ethics (was Re: [B7L] A New Character) References: <18d3c1a4.366b055b@aol.com> <366C98A8.6BF2@geocities.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <366C98A8.6BF2@geocities.com>; from Pat Patera on Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:10:32PM -0800 Resent-Message-ID: <"Rt3vWB.A.TG.5ndb2"@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Resent-From: blakes7@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15480 X-Loop: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Precedence: list Resent-Sender: blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Still haven't caught up on months of List stuff, gave up and started reading recent postings, and saw: On Mon, Dec 07, 1998 at 07:10:32PM -0800, Pat Patera wrote: > LordRab@aol.com wrote: > > All I could think of was a line from my favorite Blake's 7 character > > (surprise!!!! It's Kerr Avon): > > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others" > Gan steps forward now and again, as he did in Shadow, to take a moral > stand. And look how tiresome it made him. Oi! No fair. Did not! (Kathryn jumps up and down) Blake takes a moral stand (the Federation is evil, I will destroy it) and he is not tiresome, yet when Gan takes a moral stand, he is? *If* it were true that Gan was tiresome, then it must be some other factor, rather than "taking a moral stand" that makes him so. A lack of anger, perhaps. Or a lack of charisma. But not the moral stand itself. Mind you, Gan isn't tiresome anyway. Unless you think Cally is tiresome too? She was rather fond of the moral stand herself. > I love the self-doubt these characters deal with. At times I can > empathize with all of them, for they personify basic human failings: > Blake wondering if he's throwing his life away on a pipe dream. Avon > knowing that nobody likes him cuz he's such a conceited egghead. Vila's > laziness and tendencies toward imbibing controlled substances. Cally's > loneliness. Jenna's jealousy and unrequited love. Gan's stupidity. > Tarrant's immaturity. Soolin's self-absorbtion. Dayna? hmmmm no, I don't > share her blood lust. Tho I wish I did, cuz it looks like such fun! :-) Gan isn't stupid. So there. Just because Avon's a genious doesn't make Gan stupid. (There, Judith, do I get my oak leaves now? ) > I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang perfect > and self-confident. Priggish Picard most of all. Lt. Barkley is the only > one who engenders any sympathy from the viewers. And he is such a sad > case that he's nearly a cartoon. I have to toss in this perfect quote I found on the net when TNG was but a youngster -- "I think that (one of) TNG's problems is that it considers lacking action, humor and character interplay to be interchangable with cerebral (just like it often considers civility and lack of conflict interchangable with friendship)." - Atsushi Kanamori on rec.arts.startrek, 7 July 1991 -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe --part0_913252751_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:14:20 EST From: LordRab@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_913252461_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_913252461_boundary Content-ID: <0_913252461@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-12-08 21:02:28 EST, kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes: > >> I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from >> other times by contemporary standards. > >Why not? They happen to be the only standards you have, the ones you >have now. It makes just as much sense to say that what is wrong in >one age is right in another as to say that what is wrong on a Tuesday >is right on a Monday. Dear Kathryn, If this were say, the dark ages you could easily be judged in many circles as immoral for merely knowing how to read and right instead of staying perenially pregnant. Anyway, my real point is that we should not waste our time judging at all. regards, Rab "Let the gods sort it out, that's what we pay them for." --part0_913252461_boundary Content-ID: <0_913252461@inet_out.mail.welkin.apana.org.au.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (rly-yc01.mail.aol.com [172.18.149.33]) by air-yc01.mail.aol.com (v53.20) with SMTP; Tue, 08 Dec 1998 21:02:28 1900 Received: from samantha.lysator.liu.se (samantha.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.202]) by rly-yc01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id VAA05452; Tue, 8 Dec 1998 21:02:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from list@localhost) by samantha.lysator.liu.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id DAA00420; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 03:01:39 +0100 (MET) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 03:01:39 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: samantha.lysator.liu.se: list set sender to blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se using -f MBOX-Line: From kat Tue Dec 8 21:24:35 1998 remote from welkin Message-ID: <19981209082435.08525@welkin.apana.org.au> Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:24:35 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] A New Character References: <10c7ee97.366cc0f4@aol.com> X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: <10c7ee97.366cc0f4@aol.com>; from LordRab@aol.com on Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:02:28AM -0500 Resent-Message-ID: <"EG2oE.A.WG.5ndb2"@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Resent-From: blakes7@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15481 X-Loop: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Precedence: list Resent-Sender: blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On Tue, Dec 08, 1998 at 01:02:28AM -0500, LordRab@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 98-12-07 09:21:38 EST, you write: > > << Kerr Avon) : > > "I rarely comment on the Ethics of others" > >> > > Nice line! Though the episode of Voyager you mention is one I actually > almost liked. They may have chosen the "PC" solution, but I didn't get the > feel that anyone was happy with the outcome. > So what would the B7 folks have done? Avon, as you pointed, probably would > have kept the data. What of the others? Deborah Rose >> > > > I don't think that we can judge the morals and ethics of other people from > other times by contemporary standards. Why not? They happen to be the only standards you have, the ones you have now. It makes just as much sense to say that what is wrong in one age is right in another as to say that what is wrong on a Tuesday is right on a Monday. Surely a vegetarian who is one for moral reasons, thinks that animals suffered just as much when eaten in the 12th century as they do now, and therefore it is just as wrong to do, no matter when in history you happen to be. If he had been transported back in time to the 12th century, he wouldn't suddenly start eating meat, would he? (Sorry, I've been reading G. K. Chesterson recently. (-8 ) > Rather than say what I think the B7 > folks would have done I'll say what I would have had them do ( After all, they > are fictional characters and at the mercy of writers, heh heh ). Not if the writer actually listens to the characters, as all good writers do. In that case, the writer is at the mercy of the characters. > In that > future, people would have accepted that most of our medical data has usually > been obtained from experimenting on live prisoners, albeit creatures slightly > lower on the food chain than us, Well, getting back to the original question, as to how the characters would react to questionable data... Yes, Avon would have kept the data. And would have argued with Blake about it. Blake would have wanted to destroy it, for his usual sentimental reasons. Cally, perhaps, would have wanted to keep it, for a different moral reason: to redeem the suffering that those prisoners went through. That is, if the data were destroyed, then they went through all that suffering for absolutely nothing. But if the data could be used for good, to save other people, then that is a small repayment for their pain, making good come out of evil. Or maybe it would be Gan who comes up with that argument. Perhaps not: he himself has suffered from Federation medical experiments himself, that would probably give him a bias -- or it could give him an insight, from the prisoner point of view. Well, gotta go! Kathryn Andersen -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- "Blake is sitting up in a tree. Travis is sitting up in another tree. Unless they're planning to throw nuts at one another, I don't see much of a fight developing before it gets light." -- Kerr Avon (Blake's 7: Duel [A8]) -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe --part0_913252461_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:42:18 EST From: LordRab@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: [B7L] A New Character Message-ID: <46dc41d9.366f26fa@aol.com> Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_913254141_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_913254141_boundary Content-ID: <0_913254141@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 98-12-09 12:42:38 EST, ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com writes: >>Pat Patera wrote: >>I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang >>perfect and self-confident. > >But occasionally they do something right and manage to introduce an >interesting >character. Ensign Ro Laren is one of them. She is a marvelous character and >would have been a stunning addition to either of the B7 crews. > >After reading a crossover story with Avon and Ro I went on a hunt for TNG eps >with this character so I could see what she was like. She turned out to be a >fascinating character. And I was delighted to see that the author of the >story >was true to the character (as she was with Avon). Ro was a perfect match for >Avon I caught myself wishing she had been part of B7. Synchronicity... I thoROughly agree. Of all the Star Trek characters Ensign Ro (Michelle Forbes) has been for me the most intriguing (ok, Spock can stay too). In her farewell episode her moral dilemma ends in a delightfully uncharacteristic way for Star Trek (I won't spoil it for those who have not seen it). In fact, during a recent bout of fancy in which I win the lottery and finance the Big Screen version of Blake's 7 and Jacquline Pearce is sadly unavailable to play Servelan, Michelle Forbes is cast in the part opposite.....Kevin Spacey as Vila......Gary Oldman as Avon.....well I will let you all finish the casting call, just leave a part for me. cheers, Rab --part0_913254141_boundary Content-ID: <0_913254141@inet_out.mail.ssdgwy.mdc.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (rly-zc01.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.1]) by air10.mail.aol.com (v53.20) with SMTP; Wed, 09 Dec 1998 12:42:37 1900 Received: from samantha.lysator.liu.se (samantha.lysator.liu.se [130.236.254.202]) by rly-zc01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA17500; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 12:42:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from list@localhost) by samantha.lysator.liu.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA08289; Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:40:19 +0100 (MET) Resent-Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 18:40:19 +0100 (MET) X-Authentication-Warning: samantha.lysator.liu.se: list set sender to blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se using -f Message-ID: Date: 9 Dec 1998 09:39:52 -0800 From: "Ma.James" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP for Quarterdeck Mail; Version 4.0.0 Subject: [B7L] A New Character Resent-Message-ID: <"JSsxJ.A.aBC.BYrb2"@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Resent-From: blakes7@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15494 X-Loop: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Precedence: list Resent-Sender: blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >Pat Patera wrote: >I resent and dislike the Trek characters cuz they are so dang >perfect and self-confident. But occasionally they do something right and manage to introduce an interesting character. Ensign Ro Laren is one of them. She is a marvelous character and would have been a stunning addition to either of the B7 crews. After reading a crossover story with Avon and Ro I went on a hunt for TNG eps with this character so I could see what she was like. She turned out to be a fascinating character. And I was delighted to see that the author of the story was true to the character (as she was with Avon). Ro was a perfect match for Avon I caught myself wishing she had been part of B7. --part0_913254141_boundary-- -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #304 **************************************