From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #41 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/41 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 41 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L] BBC re-release Re: [B7L] BBC re-release Re: [B7L] Vila as a god ADMIN: Trouble (was: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?) Re: [B7L] Re: Where are People? [B7L] The Cult Files Re: [B7L] Re: Where are People? Re: [B7L] Re: Gareth and BEAUTY Re: [B7L] The Cult Files [B7L] Blake's popular support Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:09:58 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <199802091609.LAA02847@yfn.ysu.edu> Avona wrote: >Tarrant would like to think of himself as a hero, and if he had someone >to learn from, might have made one. Tarrant would have been a good >right-hand man to Blake, where he could sort of be a hero-in-training >for a while. He has noble ideas, I think, but doesn't have the >instincts, because Federation training doesn't really prepare you to be >heroic. Doesn't have the instincts for it? I must have missed those episodes when he was cowering back in the corner. Tarrant's bravery bordered on stupidity at times. This is the man who ran TOWARD the bomb in "Warlord." > But Tarrant claims the role of hero while often >rejecting the risks; Avon disclaims the role in spite of often indulging >in heroic behavior. When did Tarrant claim the role of hero? I never heard him make any such proclamation. But he did proclaim a set of values that I would call heroic, such as when he told Avon in "Children of Auron": "As long as Cally is part of this crew, she has full call on your loyality and support, no matter what the risks." If anyone bestowed the title of hero on Tarrant, it was Avon, who labels Tarrant as "brave" in "Traitor." Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:55:28 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <199802091555.KAA02197@yfn.ysu.edu> Jenni asked: >Can anyone come up with examples where Tarrant is particularly >unselfish in helping or rescuing the others when he could have saved >himself more easily? I was defending him as a heroic team player at >Pages Bar yesterday, but could come up with only one instance (Blake, >when Scorpio crashes) where he voluntarily put himself in danger to >help the others get away. This is a busy morning and I'm going to have to rush out a reply. But it's a hard question to answer because I see Tarrant's behavior as so unselfish that I can't imagine needing to come to his defense. Volcano: Tarrant didn't need to go back to rescue Cally. Avon leaves the choice up to Tarrant. And in fact Tarrant is shot in the leg because he chose to go after Cally. City at the Edge of the World: Avon wants to leave when it is growing dark. Tarrant argues they should stay and find Vila. Children of Auron: It's Tarrant who argues that they should go to Auron. He (and the others) teleport to the planet, exposing themselves to the deadly virus, to try to help Cally's people. Rumours of Death: Tarrant teleports into the cell to rescue Avon. He's the first to speak up that they need to go with Avon to offer back-up. He acts as decoy to distract the armed guards, allowing the others to overpower them. He wants to go back to the cellar for Avon when Avon has been left behind. Ultraworld: Going to Ultraworld to rescue Cally. Staying on Ultraworld to rescue Cally and Avon. Moloch: Bursting into where Avon and Dayna are held prisoner to rescue them. Death-Watch: Risks his life not only for the crew but to prevent a Teal-Vandor War. Terminal: Despite having just had his life threatened by Avon, insists on going after him to provide back-up. If Tarrant was truly the selfish type, he would have stayed on the ship where it was safe and hoped Avon didn't return (with Avon's message and precautions suggesting that was a good possibility). Rescue: Again, he's the one to act as the decoy when he and Avon "sneak up" on Dorian. And we're told that he was injured in the underground base while trying to rescue Cally. Traitor: Stays on Heloit, against Avon's orders, to help Hunda and company. Games: He's the one who teleports down to get the wounded, presumably in danger, Gerren. Blake: It's not just staying with Scorpio. Later, he's out= numbered and out-gunned by Deva, Blake, and Arlen, but makes a break for freedom because he thinks his shipmates are walking into a trap. Returns to the center of the tracking gallery to try to get Avon moving to a safer location. These are just the most blatant examples of his concern for his shipmates (and other people). To counter the question of whether Tarrant was a team player, when did we ever see him put his own safety first? I can only think of one incident that might vaguely qualify for that. In Dawn, they don't go back for Cally. But my thought is that Tarrant was putting the needs of the many first. He was working to get Avon, Dayna, and Vila back to the ship. I think he would have gone back for Cally at that point, if there was any chance of getting her out alive in time for all of them to get away. But Cally had shown up by then. Which isn't to say that Tarrant was the only "hero" of the lot. I think they were all team players. Even Avon, who put on a show of not being one, and despite Avon's selfish behavior in "Orbit," an action I believe he later regretted. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:47:32 +0000 (GMT) From: Rob Clother To: B7 mailing list Subject: [B7L] BBC re-release Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've been offline for a while, so apols if I'm repeating what everyone else has said umpteen times before, but... I phoned the BBC this morning (trying to get hold of copies of "Blake" and "The Way Back"), and apparently the series is going to be re-released in the UK on the 2nd of March. Not a bad bit of news, is it? Just in case anyone didn't know. Cheers, Rob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rob Clother Research Assistant Department of Applied Mathematics Office: 10:21d University of Leeds Phone: +44 113 233 5182 Leeds LS2 9JT E-mail: rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk Web Site: http://www.amsta.leeds.ac.uk/~rob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:26:55 +0100 (MET) From: "Jeroen J. Kwast" To: rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk (Rob Clother) Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (mailing list) Subject: Re: [B7L] BBC re-release Message-Id: <199802102026.VAA06260@pampus.gns.getronics.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is not a joke to get our hopes up right?!?!?!? I'm trying to get ep 52 foor years now!!! Jeroen > > > > I've been offline for a while, so apols if I'm repeating what everyone > else has said umpteen times before, but... > > I phoned the BBC this morning (trying to get hold of copies of "Blake" and > "The Way Back"), and apparently the series is going to be re-released in > the UK on the 2nd of March. Not a bad bit of news, is it? > > Just in case anyone didn't know. > > Cheers, > Rob > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Rob Clother Research Assistant > Department of Applied Mathematics Office: 10:21d > University of Leeds Phone: +44 113 233 5182 > Leeds LS2 9JT E-mail: rob@amsta.leeds.ac.uk > > Web Site: http://www.amsta.leeds.ac.uk/~rob > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 09:25:49 +1300 From: Nicola Collie To: B7-list Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Heather Smith wrote: [snip] [Loki] He's almost what >> one would expect if Avon and Vila were merged... Pat P: >what a wonderful story idea. anyone? The first thing that springs to mind is a teleport accident a la Voyager (I saw that ep last night!*). There must be a more original plot device out there - anyone? :-) I'd offer to write it but I've got older story ideas duking it out with real-world concerns for my attention right now :-/ Further to the Vila as a God thread - I don't know much about Chinese mythology, perhaps someone who does can enlighten us on the similarities between Vila and Monkey? I'm not sure if Monkey is a god, but I have this impression of a mischievous character loaded down with some real responsibility all of a sudden. ttfn, Nicola *The one where Tuvok and Neelix are merged in the transporter beam 'cos of some weird plant they were carrying at the time. --- Nicola Collie nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Dunedin, New Zealand "It just occurred to me that, as the description of a highly sophisticated technological achievement "Avon's gadget works," seems to lack a certain style." All universes are real - some are just more real than others. Put another way: All universes are imaginary - some are more imaginary than others. Alternatively: All universes are real - some are more imaginary than others. Um, actually: All universes are imaginary - some are just more real than others. Wibble. pvvzzchk *pop* ------------------------------ Date: 10 Feb 1998 21:58:36 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: ADMIN: Trouble (was: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish?) Message-ID: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) writes: > Piffle. I sent two posts on this thread yesterday morning. They've > not come through and they haven't bounced back as undeliverable. Lysator's mail machine suffered a disk crash, so we had mail turned off while we repaired and restored. Everything should be back to normal now. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:08:12 GMT From: dfreeman@GFspubn.ttsl.co.uk (Dan Freeman) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, Fr@GFspubn.ttsl.co.uk Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Where are People? Message-Id: <199802102108.VAA02418@cpubn61.co.uk> > Hi, I'm a newcomer too, and also would like to know where people are based, > both in the US and UK. I currently live in northern California, but I'm > British and try to get back there as often as I can (I'm originally from > Bedfordshire). > > I've been a fan of B7 ever since it was first shown. My favourite is, of > course Avon. > > Where is the best place to get B7 videos from on the west coast, > preferably, if not the US in general, and what price do they run? I'm > looking for Series 3 and 4 mainly as I have none of those. > > Jay > > Jay, I used to live in North California, in Mountain View. I managed to get Blakes 7 videos in Tower Records on San Antonio Road (Palo Alto) and at the Virgin Megastore in San Francisco. Prices are about $10->$18. Currently I am based in the SE of Englan (Brighton). Are there any other Blakes 7 fans in my area?? Or perhaps even a fan club? =========== Dan Freeman =========== ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 14:23:24 -0600 (CST) From: "G. Robbins" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] The Cult Files Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just wanted to inform anyone interested in theme songs of the CDs (contains two CDs)entitled "The Cult Files" which contains many TV and movie song themes that relate to movies and television shows in the realm of cult classics (obviously). I myself discovered and purchased a copy Monday, because it contains the theme songs for Blake's 7, Doctor Who, and The X-Files (and because it was my 20th birthday and I felt like splurging..had to get that in somewhere!). The Blake's 7 theme song was not the original one but a reproduction by Mark Ayers of Dudley Simpson's extended version. I think it is a very nice reproduction, and that's pretty good praise considering I hate reproductions of anything. This may sound silly, but the bulk of the song is actually something you could dance to....it's got that heavy bass beat that I like. The other songs on it are very well done, as well. Since I bought mine here in the States, I don't know how available it might be overseas. I got mine at a "Best Buy" store, and it was in the soundtrack section under "C". Grace Robbins robbins@inet-ux.graceland.edu http://www.graceland.edu/~robbins ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 16:25:29 EST From: RCobbett@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Where are People? Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit >> other Blakes 7 fans in my area?? I wish. I went to San Francisco last year and loved the place. - Richard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:00:39 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Gareth and BEAUTY Message-ID: <34E13077.3A46@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit penny_kjelgaard@juno.com (or was it Judith - I lost track) wrote: > Story."> > Sure you don't mean the picture on page 29? Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 15:54:06 +0000 From: Reuben To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] The Cult Files Message-ID: <34E0781C.5143@reuben.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G. Robbins wrote: > > I just wanted to inform anyone interested in theme songs of the CDs > (contains two CDs)entitled "The Cult Files" which contains many TV and > movie song > themes that relate to movies and television shows in the realm of cult > classics (obviously). I myself discovered and purchased a > copy Monday, because it contains the theme songs for Blake's 7, Doctor > Who, and The > X-Files (and because it was my 20th birthday and I felt like > splurging..had to get that in somewhere!). > The Blake's 7 theme song was not the original one but a > reproduction by Mark Ayers of Dudley Simpson's extended version. I think > it is a very > nice reproduction, and that's pretty good praise considering I hate > reproductions of anything. This may sound silly, but the bulk of the song > is actually something you could dance to....it's got that heavy > bass beat that I like. The other songs on it are very well done, as well. > Since I bought mine here in the States, I don't know how available it > might be overseas. I got mine at a "Best Buy" store, and it was in > the soundtrack section under "C". > Yeah, the Blake's re-mix is nice. But, do not buy this CD for the Who Theme. It is a very bad Mark Aryes remix. Unfortunately the only bad track on the disk. Ohh, I also got mine at Best Buy. Reuben reuben@reuben.net http://www.reuben.net/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:51:15 +1000 From: Pat Fenech To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Blake's popular support Message-Id: <199802102352.AAA18627@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello everyone:) Such an interesting discussion evolving about Blake and I cannot resist joining in :) Particularly interesting, at least for me, is the question of whether or not he had any popular support for what he was doing. And so I thought to have a word, or several, about it :) as thinking about it I seem to recall there being some evidence within the series that he did. And to test my memory I went looking to see what is to be found... and discovered quite a bit. True enough we did not see scenes of the citizenry rioting through the domes demanding Blake for President. Nor did we see so very much about the rebellion. But... there is a lot of material scattered throughout the series which suggests that Blake's opposition to the Federation was of some significance; that it was not without support, nor did it pass unnoticed. The very first episode has quite a lot of detail about the opposition to the Federation. ====================== FOSTER: Four years ago, there was a good deal of discontent with the Administration. There were *many* activist groups. But the only one that really meant anything was led by Roj Blake ... BLAKE: Why are you telling me this? FOSTER: Because we are preparing to move again. And if it were known you were with us, we'd get more support... FOSTER: ... You've probably heard that the settlers in the Outer Worlds are rightly demanding greater autonomy. If we can help unify their voices, the Administration will have to listen. The security forces are overstretched. If we can step up our campaign of civil disobedience here on Earth, they will have to concentrate their forces here, and that will give the Outer Worlds much more freedom of action.. Now we must aim to have at least one world declare its independence within the next two years... TARRANT: We've got to cause as much disruption as possible in the food manufacturing division. There's nothing more effective than ration cuts to cause unrest. I've worked out methods by which this disruption can be implemented. ======================== This does seem to suggest that there was considerable, organised, opposition to the Federation on Earth, an opposition with detailed plans for furthering their aims. It also suggests just how much importance these dissidents placed upon having Blake associate himself with their plans. Important enough to risk trying to re-recruit him even when they knew what had been done to his mind and were aware that he might possibly betray them. Then there is the Federation's *very* nervous reaction to discovering that Blake was showing rebellious tendencies again. So worried were they that they feel compelled to conceive a messy and discoverable conspiracy in order to be rid of him and more importantly perhaps, to attempt to destroy his reputation utterly with the charges of child molestation. Morag suggests the Federation's thinking as to the necessity for such measures. ========================= MORAG: ... he's a symbol of opposition to the administration.' ... His death could be used by the dissidents. They need a hero. Alive or dead Blake could be it. ========================= And it seems that the Federation were not worrying needlessly. For once Blake is free of them again, has 'Liberator' and begins 'fighting back' he does become a major problem. ============================== [Federation Space Headquarters. Servalan's office.] RONTANE: Which is why the President has asked me to come here personally; to express his own very grave concern over this matter. The destruction of the communications center has far-reaching political consequences. Controllers from some of the Outer Planets, whose loyalty to the Federation is, uh, delicately balanced, have been openly critical of the Administration's defense system. There are even one or two radical voices that speak of withdrawal from the Federation. BERCOL: My department has done all in its power to suppress information about Blake and his actions -- there is a total blackout on all reports concerning him -- but still the stories get out. They spread by word of mouth, by whispers, by rumour; each time the story is told it is elaborated upon. Any damage to the Federation is attributed to Blake. The smallest incident is exaggerated out of all proportion until it becomes a major event. Blake is becoming a legend. His name is a rallying call for malcontents of all persuasions. He must be stopped. SERVALAN: Gentlemen: I share the President's grave concern. And I am aware of the danger should Blake become a legend. But let us keep this matter in its correct perspective. It is true that Blake has command of a superb space vehicle, but he is just a man, backed by a handful of criminals, and that is all. He is not invulnerable, nor is he superhuman. He is just a man, who has been extremely lucky to evade capture --- so far. RONTANE: With respect, Supreme Commander, we are aware of the facts. They are simply that with all the resources that the Federation can call upon, this one vulnerable, lucky man is still free to cause havoc. SERVALAN: You have some criticism of my handling of this matter, Secretary Rontane? RONTANE: Not at all, I hoped merely to convey the concern shown by the President when he briefed me for this visit. BERCOL: It would be very helpful to all of us if we knew --- if you could indicate what action you will NOW be taking against Blake. SERVALAN: Very well, Councillor Bercol. You may tell the President that I am appointing a Space Commander to take absolute control of this matter. He will be exclusively concerned to seek, locate, and destroy Blake. BERCOL: Oh, excellent, excellent. RONTANE: May we know the officer's name? SERVALAN: Yes, you may. Space Commander Travis.... SERVALAN: Responsibility is something I have never evaded, Secretary. RONTANE: Ah. May I then tell the President that you are confident that the Blake problem will be solved, soon? SERVALAN: You may tell him to prepare a statement announcing that Blake has been eliminated. BERCOL: Thank you for your reassurances, Supreme Commander. ================================ This suggests much. Firstly, it suggests that Blake's activities have been a cause for concern to the Federation for some time. It further suggests that the President of the Terran Federation is worried enough about Blake to be sending his minions to demand better results from Space Command. It perhaps signifies the depth of the concern that the Federation's ruler is chancing offending the military with this criticism of their effectiveness. You would imagine that such a risk would not be taken lightly by a dictatorship which depended upon the repressive capacity of its soldiery such as the Federation seems to have been. Within this exchange there are also suggestions as to just why the President was so concerned. Blake is becoming a legend. A news blackout has not prevented the stories of Blake's exploits from spreading to obviously receptive ears. This suggests strongly that there was popular interest in Blake and his opposition to the Federation and further that the interest was positive and large enough to be of some considerable worry to the Administration. Also interesting are the lengths they are all prepared to go to stop Blake. Servalan seems willing to provide Travis with whatever he feels he needs to 'seek-locate-destroy' Blake and as the series progressed we saw that she continued to do so. A tiny glimpse of the people who were listening to the tales of Blake's exploits and passing them on is provided by this exchange between Travis and Avalon: =============================== AVALON: Every year more people defy the Federation, thirty planets in this sector alone, and others will follow -- many others. TRAVIS: Yes. Well, you'll tell us about those, won't you? Their leaders, locations, their plans. I'm sure we'll be able to convince them that loyalty to the Federation is after all in their best interests. AVALON: I know enough about these machines to realize that I will tell you everything. You will murder hundreds of people, maybe thousands. But you won't end the opposition, you'll never end it. ================================== Not just bravado from Avalon, for try as they did the Federation could not put a stop to Blake nor it seems to the word of his deeds spreading. So that eventually Servalan finds herself confronting another Councillor - this one somewhat more senior, it seems to be implied ,who is voicing similar but now even more anxious concerns than Bercol and Rontane. =================================== JOBAN: Some members of the council are concerned that many of our citizens now know of Blake's activities, and those of the renegade Travis. SERVALAN: But there have been no public spacecasts on either Travis or Blake. JOBAN: People talk, Servalan. There's no way of stopping them. SERVALAN: This is a major breach of security. The punishment is total. Who are these people who have been talking? I want their names, Councilor. JOBAN: All sorts of citizens from Alphas to labor grades know of Blake's defiance of the Federation. They talk of him as a sort of...hero, many of them. SERVALAN: What rubbish. JOBAN: His men impede progress, and more importantly order. Order, Servalan. It is all that matters. SERVALAN: I do not need you to remind me of that... JOBAN: The council ask, "Where is Blake's head?" And we've no answer. SERVALAN: You shall have it. JOBAN: The answer, or his head? SERVALAN: Both. JOBAN: Good. I would not like to think I might have been wrong in my choice. ===================================== Again the clear impression given from this is the concern of the Federation hierarchy about the effect Blake's exploits are having upon the citizenry. Joban is obliquely threatening Servalan with loss of her position if she is not more effective in dealing with Blake, serious stuff! (you wonder if this sort of pressure did not contribute much to her eventual decision to stage a coup against the civilian government) That Blake was a seriously destabilising influence seems clear and while it's not spelt out exactly where the people doing the talking were the suggestion seems to be that it was on Earth and throughout the worlds ruled by the Federation. There is also the extremely interesting suggestion here of the extent of the interest in, and approval of, Blake through all stratas of society - from the Alphas to the labour grades. You would imagine that the Federation might have considerable cause to be worried. There is some evidence of the particular of the generalities Joban mentioned to Servalan when Blake goes to the aid of a planet which is attempting to throw off the yoke of Federation dominance, Albian. ===================================== CAUDER: Don't move. Now who are you? BLAKE: I'm Blake. This is Avon and Vila. CAUDER: Blake? [He lowers his gun] You mean the Blake who's been giving the Federation so much trouble? BLAKE: We've certainly been trying and from what we see here, you've been doing the same thing. CAUDER: Enters with Grant] Blake, this is Grant. GRANT: Good to meet you. [They shake hands] BLAKE: And you. We've been hearing about your strikes against the Federation. GRANT: You've been hitting them pretty hard, too. You keep it up, you'll put us out of business. ====================================== Here we hear the interest and approval for what Blake has been doing expressed by both Grant and Cauder, evidence of just how far and wide Blake's fame has spread. Then there is 'Voice from the past' with all it suggests about how important Blake is to the scheme of things in the rebellion. Mainly it seems because of the popular support for him personally. ====================================== LE GRAND: My homage to you. BLAKE: Mine to you, Governor. LE GRAND: No. It is to you only. BLAKE: I don't understand. LE GRAND: Did not the Arbiter General explain? For years now, the Arbiter General and I have prepared for this moment. He gathering evidence of the Administration's infamies, while I lobbied the support of my fellow governors. However, we could not challenge and discredit the Administration until we had found an alternative leadership, capable of uniting all factions. BLAKE: Well, you, Governor. LE GRAND: No. He who leads must be from Earth. Someone of renowned integrity, someone who has become a legend of hope to the great mass of the oppressed. A messiah. =================================== If there was any doubt about a popular basis of support for Blake this surely suggests otherwise - '...someone who has become a legend of hope to the great mass of the oppressed.' seems to me to be saying say that there was a vast reservoir of discontent waiting to find a focus, which it did - in Blake. Of course there is much more to this than the simplicity of Le Grand's statement but I think she at least believed it to be the truth of the matter and she was the representative of all the Governors of the Outer Worlds. And though Glynd's agenda was different the lengths he went to to get Blake to come to him so that he might use him as a front man do suggest that he also recognised that only under Blake's aegis could a new regime have any popular legitimacy. And finally there is the perception of Blake and his activities from another dissident, Hal Mellanby : ================================== MELLANBY: Blake? You were with Blake? AVON: Yes, though it hardly seems to matter now. If it ever did. MELLANBY: If it mattered? Blake and the Liberator? I've been hearing reports for the last couple of years. You were magnificent. ================================== So... considering all of the above it does seem to me that it is possible to draw the very strong inference that there was considerable popular support for Blake - support throughout the Federated worlds - strong support. So strong that whenever any group of dissidents considered moving in any way against the Federation they sought out Blake to lead them as he was the only one who would be acceptable to all factions. So strong that the Federation were prepared to go to any lengths, even to the extent of perhaps undermining their own position, to stop him. Of course, as was the case with Nelson Mandela, who has been mentioned in some posts, and who is, I think, a very good analogy, there is no hard evidence such as polls of interested citizens to underpin the impression of widespread support with tangible evidence. But, as with Mandela, we perhaps can suggest with some certainty that the support is evident enough in different but just as meaningful ways, such as Le Grand's conviction about Blake's pivotal position in any rebellion, based as that is on a recognition of the popular support he has. It seems to me, though I may be misinterpreting, that some of the discussion anyway seems to be heading towards correlating whether Blake was justified in what he did with evidence of popular support. I don't know that I would necessarily agree that one is *the* justification for the other. I tend to feel that Blake was more than justified even if not one citizen agreed., which is hardly likely I suppose - the yen for freedom being one aspect of humanity which is common to all eras and conditions. But even if the repression of the Federation had killed it entirely it does not effect the fact that the government Blake takes up arms against is an evil government which if any sort of justice is to prevail deserves to be at least altered if not brought down for the repression it practices upon its citizens. We can argue about his methods but his cause seems to me to be a just one. But, if it is felt that popular support adds legitimacy and justification to the righteousness of Blake's cause and the actions he takes in pursuit of it, then perhaps the inferences of such popular support to be drawn from the few moments mentioned above do provide such justification. I know the politics of 'Blakes 7' are not of much general interest, but I find it intriguing and feel that it was rather a shame that this aspect of the series was not explored in more depth. I would like to have seen what Blake might have accomplished at the head of his 'rabble' :) If Nelson Mandela could walk from Robin Island into the office of President of South Africa Blake might have accomplished something similar. Pat Fenech ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:17:32 -0000 From: "Tom Forsyth" To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nicola Collie wrote: > Further to the Vila as a God thread - I don't know much about Chinese > mythology, perhaps someone who does can enlighten us on the similarities > between Vila and Monkey? I'm not sure if Monkey is a god, but I have this > impression of a mischievous character loaded down with some real > responsibility all of a sudden. Well, the only thing I know about Monkey is from the very silly (but excellent) series they used to show over here (UK, 1984-ish). Tripitaka, Monkey, Pigsy, Sandy and that lot. Can't quite see Vila as Monkey, though - he's more Pigsy, really. Monkey definately reminds me of Tarrant - bold, brashful and totally out of his depth half the time. And they've both got a magic rod that starts small, but with a quick flick of the fingers extends... um, you get the idea. Anyway, who else in the crew would take a leak on Buddah's finger? Aside from Blake, of course, and he's nothing at all like Monkey. Tripitaka is certainly Cally (later version) if he/she's anyone. Sandy? Well, Slave about matches his demeanour - downtroddne and half-asleep all the time. The life of a water-monster is not all fun and games. I realise that the similarities between Monkey-the-series and the Monkey of Chinese mythology is slim at best. Tom Forsyth. P.S. I do hope somebody else knows what I'm on about - cultural milestones like Monkey can't have missed _all_ the people on this list. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:07:25 +1300 From: Nicola Collie To: B7-list Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Nicola Collie wrote: >> Further to the Vila as a God thread - I don't know much about Chinese >> mythology, perhaps someone who does can enlighten us on the similarities >> between Vila and Monkey? I'm not sure if Monkey is a god, but I have this >> impression of a mischievous character loaded down with some real >> responsibility all of a sudden. > >Well, the only thing I know about Monkey is from the very silly (but >excellent) series they used to show over here (UK, 1984-ish). Tripitaka, >Monkey, Pigsy, Sandy and that lot. Yeah, I think that's the show I've seen (my memories are pretty vague). I think I saw it when we were living in Singapore (early '80s), so it probably had English subtitles - not the ideal attention holder for me then. Can't quite see Vila as Monkey, though - >he's more Pigsy, really. Monkey definately reminds me of Tarrant - bold, >brashful and totally out of his depth half the time. Quick, hide! I hear the Tarrant Nostra have spies everywhere! :-) And they've both got a >magic rod that starts small, but with a quick flick of the fingers >extends... um, you get the idea. *snort* >Tripitaka is certainly Cally (later version) if he/she's anyone. _That's_ the name I was trying to remember - wasn't sie some sort of mystic that Monkey was supposed to escort somewhere (gender unspecified due to fuzzy memory, and I think T was played by a woman but referred to as a man - v. confusing to a person of tender years). Yes, definitely serene, philosophical, the only sane one of the bunch. Don't remember much else about the other characters. >I realise that the similarities between Monkey-the-series and the Monkey of >Chinese mythology is slim at best. Likewise myself >P.S. I do hope somebody else knows what I'm on about - cultural milestones >like Monkey can't have missed _all_ the people on this list. Actually I thought it was unknown outside Asia until I heard a reference to it here in NZ recently - can't remember what, I've slept since then (dashed nickel-plated leather memory chips, don't make 'em like they used to, you can't get the wood, you know) ttfn, Nicola --- Nicola Collie nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Dunedin, New Zealand "It just occurred to me that, as the description of a highly sophisticated technological achievement "Avon's gadget works," seems to lack a certain style." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:37:51 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E10EFF.5F50@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: some rebuttals to what I've said. Sorry, I meant heroism in terms of the _values_ of a hero, not the courage of one. Tarrant never lacked for courage, but he was a bully to Vila. (Avon bullied Vila,too, but in a more friendly way, usually. And Avon never claimed to have good values). And as far as manipulating people goes, once again, Avon was manipulative, yes, but he let it be knnown he was manipulative. He'd tell the people he was with that he'd sent the others into a trap, knowing he could get them out, but not wanting to argue about sending them in. Blake would have pretended to be _surprised_ when Dayna and Vila were captured by the Spacerats, or he would have insisted on everyone going in together, and increase the risk to all. Blake had a "democracy" with yes-men following him, Avon had a benevolent dictatorship. It came down to the same thing; if you didn't agree with the guy in charge, you could ask to be let off on a nuetral planet. Has anyone here read Nietzche? Avon seems to typify the concept of "Beyond Good and Evil"... he rejects the morals that society conforms to, but has his own moral code that is more personally meanful. He cannot be a hypocrit, because he lives by self-defined values with self-defined limits. Blake and Tarrant are modelled on traditional heores, and don't always meet the pre-set standards. Once again, is anyone familiar enough with Nietzche's writings to discuss this? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 18:39:32 -0800 From: Jay To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980210183932.006aca38@succeed.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 06:37 PM 2/10/98 -0800, you wrote: > >Has anyone here read Nietzche? Avon seems to typify the concept of >"Beyond Good and Evil"... he rejects the morals that society conforms >to, but has his own moral code that is more personally meanful. He >cannot be a hypocrit, because he lives by self-defined values with >self-defined limits. Blake and Tarrant are modelled on traditional >heores, and don't always meet the pre-set standards. Once again, is >anyone familiar enough with Nietzche's writings to discuss this? I'm not familiar with Nietzche, but your post reminded me of a quote, attributed to Voltaire (though I don't know for sure if it is his) "I have no morals, yet I'm a very moral person." To me, it seems to fit Avon to a tee. Not seeming, on the surface to have any morals, yet they're there and quite his own. Sorry I'm not much of a philospher Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:12:05 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: Jay CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E11705.52A9@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I'm not familiar with Nietzche, but your post reminded me of a quote, > attributed to Voltaire (though I don't know for sure if it is his) "I have > no morals, yet I'm a very moral person." To me, it seems to fit Avon to a > tee. Not seeming, on the surface to have any morals, yet they're there and > quite his own. Sorry I'm not much of a philospher > > Jay > You're quite right, that's the same idea. And it's ssoooo fascinating. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 19:58:15 -0700 (MST) From: The Doctor To: avona@jps.net (Helen Krummenacker) Cc: jmcguiga@succeed.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-Id: <199802110258.TAA20295@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > I'm not familiar with Nietzche, but your post reminded me of a quote, > > attributed to Voltaire (though I don't know for sure if it is his) "I have > > no morals, yet I'm a very moral person." To me, it seems to fit Avon to a > > tee. Not seeming, on the surface to have any morals, yet they're there and > > quite his own. Sorry I'm not much of a philospher > > > > Jay > > > > > You're quite right, that's the same idea. And it's ssoooo fascinating. > > In the end, in Blake, we all know Tarrant is a jerk who is only out for himself. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:43:26 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-Id: <199802110345.VAA27815@pemberton.magnolia.net> Helen said: >Sorry, I meant heroism in terms of the _values_ of a hero, not the >courage of one. Tarrant never lacked for courage, but he was a bully to >Vila. (Avon bullied Vila,too, but in a more friendly way, usually. And >Avon never claimed to have good values). As far as I can see, there was *no one* aboard Liberator or Scorpio (excluding Gan and possibly Zen) who *didn't* bully Vila around. And often for less valid reasons than Tarrant had in City. And I thought Tarrant had pretty good values, loyalty to your shipmates being the one that comes most easily and quickly to mind. Avon and Vila both weren't always too quick to act on that particular value! Lorna B. "You ever flown a flying saucer? After that, sex seems trite." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 21:50:06 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: "B7 Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila as a god Message-Id: <199802110351.VAA28154@pemberton.magnolia.net> Tom said: >P.S. I do hope somebody else knows what I'm on about - cultural >milestones like Monkey can't have missed _all_ the people on this list. I've heard Monkey discussed before. But U.S. people of a certain generation might recall the old anime ALAKAZAM THE GREAT, which I think is based on the same myth. To a child used to Disney, it was like going on a very strange acid trip. Man, is this getting *way* off topic... Lorna B. "You ever flown a flying saucer? After that, sex seems trite." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 00:02:31 -0700 From: Catharine Roussel To: Lysator B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E14C4E.F15@telusplanet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: > And as far as manipulating people goes, once again, Avon was > manipulative, yes, but he let it be knnown he was manipulative. He'd > tell the people he was with that he'd sent the others into a trap, > knowing he could get them out, but not wanting to argue about sending > them in. Blake would have pretended to be _surprised_ when Dayna and > Vila were captured by the Spacerats, or he would have insisted on > everyone going in together, and increase the risk to all. Blake had a > "democracy" with yes-men following him, Avon had a benevolent > dictatorship. It came down to the same thing; if you didn't agree with > the guy in charge, you could ask to be let off on a nuetral planet. Actually, I can't see Blake sending anyone into a trap. It is not his style at all. He was always a very hands on leader that insisted on being involved in any mission personally. For Blake, the resistance to the federation was very much his own battle. He knew that his band of rebels was reluctant at best. If he did not lead them, they wouldn't go at all, with the possible exception of Cally. She at least had the same commitment to the resistance as Blake, and could be trusted to finish a mission. Yet even knowing this, Blake still insisted on being in control. I don't think that he was prepared to put people into risky situations that he wasn't ready to face himself. His words at the end of "Seek Locate Destroy" were heavy with the weight of responsibility that he felt for his new companions. "Too many of my friends are already dead, Cally. I can't afford to lose another one." Blake still practised this hands on leadership at the very end. Although he seemed to trust Deva, and Deva was confident that he could extract all the information they needed to select new recruits from the computers, Blake insisted on hand selecting his rebels using his rather dangerous bounty hunter routine. Even after admitting his mistrust his own instincts about people, he couldn't remove himself from the selection process. Catharine -- Catharine Roussel croussel@telusplanet.net -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #41 *************************************