From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #44 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/44 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 44 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L] Re: Where are people? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L] RE: Location, location, location Re: [B7L] On My Mind Re: [B7L] On My Mind Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? [B7L] FYI, more about Monkey [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant Re: [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant Re: [B7L] authors and such Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting Re: [B7L] Avon's morals Re: [B7L] Avon's morals Re: [B7L] On My Mind Re: [B7L] Tarrant [B7L] Cross-overs Re: [B7L] Avon's morals [B7L] Various stuff [B7L] LOTR Re: [B7L] On My Mind ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:24:54 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <199802120024.TAA00493@yfn.ysu.edu> Ack, if volume continues at this rate, I'm going to have to switch this list to a different ISP. I keep getting "WARNING: you are over quota" notices. In the interest of keeping my mail level within acceptable limits I'm going to throw out some brief comments on several posts here. Lorna B. wrote: >And that's a big part of a lot of the Avon-Tarrant jockeying for position >(minds out of the gutter, slash fans!). Oh sure, tempt us with slashy images then tell us we can't play. ;-) Nicole and Lorna, great posts. Very insightful. I agree, of course, that Tarrant wasn't overly enthusiastic to be leader. If he had had such ambitions, he wouldn't have fallen so easily and comfortably into second in command when Avon started making decisions. It's not as if Tarrant was a shy wallflower. If he had really wanted command, he'd have continued to push for that position. He would have taken advantage of Avon when he was down (Rumours, Terminal) instead of being supportive of him. Niccola, quite agree about the dazzle of those "pearly whites," and they are even more devastating in person. I can't understand why Avon, Vila, Cally, Dayna and Soolin weren't tripping over each other in a rush to Tarrant's bed. (There I go slipping into the gutter again. :) Great plan to expose Tom to the toothy one until he (Tom) begs for mercy. We'll have to work on the logistics. D. Rose, enjoyed your posts. How true that the series wouldn't have been half as interesting if our resident rebels hadn't come complete with warts. I liked to see their human sides, maybe because it's far easier for me to identify with flaws than with virtues. I agree that Tarrant could have very easily charged off to the rescue in "Horizon" without much planning and possibly ended up eating mush and mining with the other. And possibly knowing he didn't have Avon for back-up (this is assuming Avon wasn't there), he might have been more cautious. As I noted in an earlier post, Tarrant tightened his own reins when Avon was the one charging into the Valley of Death. Kind of cute that. As long as Tarrant knew Avon was there to pull him out of hot water, Tarrant felt he could be reckless. Though I think that would have to have been a sub- conscious behavior on Tarrant's part, because it wasn't until well into fourth series that Tarrant's conscious mind accepted that Avon would rescue him. Until then, he bought into Avon's stance of not caring about the fate of his shipmates. (Not unexpected that someone as forthright as Tarrant would assume that Avon was being equally forthright.) For instance, in "Rescue" Tarrant is surprised that Avon came back for him. G. Robbins (this is all from memory, and I hope I'm getting the right names with the right posts), interesting question about how the crew would have interacted if reunited with Blake and/or Jenna and "Blake" had all been a dream. There are some PGPs out there that twist events in "Blake" so that the shooting didn't happen, and that allows a more peaceable reunion. I've not had a chance to speculate on that possibility myself, I'm still trying to work out how they would get on leaving the episode "Blake" intact and having them all survive. I'm especially happy you mentioned Jenna. She often seems to be the forgotten person when it comes to returns and resurrections. I would enjoy more AUs where she is reunited with the fourth or third season crew. There have been some good PGPs where she got to show the strength one would expect from a smuggler lady. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:04:21 -0600 From: Jason Brittain To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Where are people? Message-ID: <34E258A4.66A239AF@inav.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Jenni posted to list asking about B7 fans living near Altringham in > the hope > >of meeting up with people while she as there training. > > > >As a newcomer, I'd also be interested to know where people are based, > with a > >view to meeting up at some future date. As newcomers are chiming in, I'll toss my hat into the ring on this as well. I'm from out in the States.. in Iowa of all places. The local PBS station started showing Blake's 7 around last July or so, and I've been a fan since the first show. - Jason "If you work very hard, someday you'll be able to write such illogical things too."-Miyoshi Shoraku ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:01:06 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E265F2.7094@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I didn't see that either Blake or Tarrant confirmed to the morals > of society. You have to remember that their society isn't our > society. Tarrant is a sore thumb hero in the Federation universe. > He has his own set of moral values and won't be bullied or mocked > into changing them. His world is a horrible place where > nastiness abounds, but he continually behaves as if that weren't > the case. You can ignore me if you want, but I will explain; the Blake's 7 characters tend to be arcetypes. Vila = the Artful Dodger type, the mischevious but loveable fellow whose strangths lie in his personlity and cleverness. Blake is a leader hero; a Robin Hood, a Charlemagne, an Arthur. Cally and Dayna were Dianas, huntress women. Cally was also the mystic, the witch-woman. Jenna is an outlaw queen, I suppose, there's fewer of those in literature, but she suits the type. Tarrant is a Lancelot or Achilles, whose talents lie in his strength and virtue (and has weaknesses they were known for- love(Lancelot) and arrogance(Achilles). Soolin is hard to find an archetype for... any suggestion? Kerr is an anti-hero, reminiscent of the days when all intellectuals were considered slightly sinister (Merlin was the son of a demon)-- but he is played as a Zarathustra, a moral character who created his own code of ethics after living 10 years in solitude. I like _all_ the Blake's 7 characters and the timelessness of their archetypes. But considering the heroes they resemble, I can say that Avon is really the only one offensive to society. It doesn't matter what time period we talk about; I'm talking about the fact that the others choose to believe in right and wrong. Even in an immoral society like the Federation, the majority _have_ to believe in right and wrong for society to work. Yes, I _do_ consider Avon's point of view to be intriguing. I wouldn't behave the way he does. I do however, understand his reasoning. And I admire the strength it takes to do the "wrong" thing, knowing that it will be forever on his conscience, knowing he won't be forgiven, but knowing it is the only way to save lives. (Stardrive) Sometimes he makes mistakes; look at how he walked into Servalan's traps at times. But he always cared about his teammates; he just never liked to admit it. So crucify me for liking the character. Why did you watch past the first two seasons if you dispise him as much as your comments to me seem to indicate? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:54:16 -0600 (CST) From: Susan.Moore@uni.edu To: BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] RE: Location, location, location Message-id: <01ITGTDLT8828Z2D8A@uni.edu> It's interesting to see where people are from. Three Iowans on the list, not too bad. I've not watched much of seasons 3 or 4, but from what I've seen Tarrant is very comfortable in his role as pilot and de facto second in command once he susses out what Avon's about. If his military training is similar to current training, the lack of a clear chain of command would be very disorienting. I've seen much the same reaction when an organization I was connected with moved from a hierarchical system to a team-based one. The chain of decision-making (or command) was broken and it took a long time for some people to adjust. I see Tarrant's reaction in a similar vein. I've seen fan fiction where Tarrant left the Federation because of being ordered to do something he found extremely distasteful, but what if he left because he ended up in a situation where he was in charge and had to choose between actions that would both end badly. That could sour him on command and explain why someone who was capable of leading would chose not to. Susan M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:20:28 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "G. Robbins" CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind Message-ID: <34E26A7C.286B@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 1. On Blake....(depending on these important variables) > A. The series went on for another season > B. Episode "Blake" just a nightmare > C. He rejoins the crew > What would it be like, or what kind of impact would it be for the crew > members (each one in particular)? I have been trying to think about > this and find it kind of interesting how he might have related to > people like Dayna, Tarrant, and Soolin. What do you think? > If Blake rejoined the crew for a following-the-fourth-season period, I think it would be beneficial to all. Avon has practically gone out of his mind with stress, and with Blake regaining command, he can withdraw and lose some of the heavy responsibility. Tarrant looks up to Blake by reputation, so his Alpha male reactions will calm down in the presence of this Silverback of rebellion. Soolin would be cool with him, Vila would be happier, and Dayna-- I'm not sure how she'd react. Her dad thought the world of Blake, but she didn't always see eye-to-lens with her father, and Avon has been kind of a surrogate father since there first episode-- she might resent the apparent demotion of Avon. I think they'd stand a better chance of success. Plot idea> Avon leaves the crew once he can get a ship of his own. Blake is angry, feels that Avon is abandoning the dream. Avon is really going on a solo mission that he isn't telling anyon about. He has developed an incredible hatred for Servalan, and now that he doesn't have to worry about the others, he inteneds to get revenge for all she's done. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:25:28 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "G. Robbins" CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind Message-ID: <34E26BA8.2FDB@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > 3. What was the deffinative reason Cally was crying after defeating the > alien in > "Sarcophagus?" Was she sad because she had let the alien in (because she > had always been a generally sympathetic character and emotionally felt > akin to the being) and then felt horrible because she had led to its > death, and had heard it begging and pleading to live? Or was she crying > because it had tried to kill Avon? Or was it a little of both? My personal thought-- the scene with Avon left her drained and remorseful. I don't know if anyone else thinks so, but it seemed to me that she and Avon were developing a special rapport in 3rd season. In spite of his mistrust of people in general, he's one of the only ones who never got accusatory when she was doing weird things under mental influences. He was concerned about her emotional well-being after "Children of Auron"; he's not usually concerned about the feelings of others. He seemed to respect for her opinions, without often agreeing. She seemed to see the differences in his words vs his actions. In short, if she hadn't gotten killed off, I think they might in time have become more than friends. I know Paul says they weren't playing it that way but-- does anyone else think they saw something starting? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 19:33:22 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: AChevron@aol.com CC: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E26D82.7069@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Actually, I've always thought that Avon usually had several reasons for > almost every action/descision he made, and usually let the others choose what > his reason was. Even with Servalan in Terminal. when she supposes that it is > his interest in the hints of wealth that brought him running. He's proven > often enough that he doesn't lack in physical bravery, just as Tarrant has > never shown a lack of the same. The difference is in their interpretation and > judgement of the danger. Avon goes to Horizon, after taking what measures he > can to avoid detection/capture. Tarrant I think would have rushed planetside > as did Cally, Gan, et. all. Brave but counter-productive. > Just a few stray thoughts on this intriguing line of postings... Deborah > Rose Good thoughts. I never thought about it before, but what you say about "multiple motives" makes since. I'm the same way. Nearly everything I do, I can give a wide range of reasons for. Maybe that's one reason I think Avon was smart, even if he was losing to Servalan. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:58:10 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-Id: <199802120400.WAA25778@pemberton.magnolia.net> Helen said: > Yes, I _do_ consider Avon's point of view to be intriguing. I wouldn't >behave the way he does. I do however, understand his reasoning. And I >admire the strength it takes to do the "wrong" thing, knowing that it >will be forever on his conscience, knowing he won't be forgiven, but >knowing it is the only way to save lives. (Stardrive) Sometimes he makes >mistakes; look at how he walked into Servalan's traps at times. But he >always cared about his teammates; he just never liked to admit it. So >crucify me for liking the character. Why did you watch past the first >two seasons if you dispise him as much as your comments to me seem to >indicate? Since I've been participating in this discussion too-- Helen, *no one* is crucifying you for liking Avon. *I* like Avon too. He's not my above-all favorite character, but I like him. It wouldn't be B7 without him. But maybe it would be wise to keep in mind that some of us choose to focus on a different character or characters. That doesn't mean we dislike Avon, or Avon fans, for that matter. I doubt very much that anyone who's been in on this discussion despises Avon. I know I don't, anyway. What I do find inexplicable is when the other characters are held to a standard of behavior from which Avon is somehow magically exempt. That I do find objectionable. Lorna B. "You ever flown a flying saucer? After that, sex seems trite." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 20:47:10 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "Lorna B." CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant: Heroic or selfish? Message-ID: <34E27ECE.49D3@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lorna, thank you for being kinder to me than certain other people. Sorry, I was insulted by one person who said she would ignore all my mail since she thought I was pompous, or something like that. Maybe I am a little, and I'm sorry for that, too. Find that on your email first thing in the morning and see if it doesn't make you a little grouchy. Look, I try to judge _each_ of the characters by _their own_ standards. Dayna is bloodthirsty by most standards, but she's true to her own views of standing up physically for what she believes in, seeing the world in terms of friends and enemies,and behaving "appropiately" towards each of them. If Vila started killing like she does, while telling the others he can't stand the thought of bloodshed(and believing he still does), I'd call him a hypocrit. I hold Avon to Avon's standards, Blake to Blake's standards, Tarrant to Tarrant's standards, as I can best judge their own standards to be. We aren't even discussing Servalan's morality because we all know that she lives by standards so different, it's pointless to compare her to anything good. Blake, Tarrant, Avon, and the other 'heroes" we can either compare to "absolute morality"-- care to tell me what that is? Or their own standards. If you like, I'll concede it's possible Blake and Tarrant have set standards noone can quite live up to. I don't think Avon always lives up to his standards, either, and it pains him at least as much as the others are pained by their own failings. And no, I don't live up to my standards either. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 04:54:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] FYI, more about Monkey Message-Id: <199802120456.EAA10132@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is probably rather more than you wanted to know, but-- Monkey is indeed a figure from Chinese folklore and mythology, but he's best known as the protagonist of a major work of literature, one of the four greatest novels of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644). There are two good English translations of the book. The earlier, abbreviated one (1942) is by Arthur Waley and is called =Monkey=. The more recent, complete one is by Anthony Yu and is called =Journey to the West=. The character called Tripitaka is very loosely based on a historical person, a Chinese Buddhist priest who in the seventh century C.E. made the long and perilous journey to India (to the west, because to get from China to India by land you first have to go west across the Central Asian desert and then around the Himalayas-- not easy even today) to bring back the authentic Buddhist scriptures. His real name was Hsuan-tsang [or Xuanzang in the modern romanization system]; Tripitaka is a nickname, the Sanskrit term for the canon of Buddhist scriptures (as Calle mentioned; the word means literally the Three Baskets-- Sanskrit is an Indo-European language, hence the occasional cognates like the "tri" here-- because it is divided into three sections). In later centuries it was thought that he must have had supernatural help to complete such a trip successfully; hence the legends of Monkey & co. A very thorough scholarly study of the origin and growth of the Monkey legends is Glen Dudbridge, =The Hsi-yu Chi: A Study of Antecedents to the 16th-Century Chinese Novel= (Cambridge U.P., 1970). The popularity of the Monkey legends today is due, IMO, partly to the novel, partly to the already- existing folklore that it was based on, and partly to the fact that Monkey stories are often featured in Peking opera. The novel was translated into Japanese in the 19th century as part of a general boom in exotic fantasy adventure stories and has been popular in Japan as well as in Chinese-speaking places ever since. There have been umpteen animated and live-action versions of it, made in various places; I'm not sure which version it was that was shown in Britain in the 80s (or for that matter where Alakazam came from-- I must not be quite the right age, Lorna!). But it sounds, actually, as if it may have been fairly close to the novel. The Monkey is indeed an irreverent character. (I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Japanese version. They tend to go in for pissing scenes. And the English-dubbed TV version of =The Water Margin=, another one of those four great Ming novels, was definitely a Japanese production originally-- I used to watch it in Japan in the 70s.) It never occurred to me to try to match the characters to the B7 ones, because offhand I don't see much resemblance, but hmm... I'd say Monkey is a combination of Vila and Tarrant. He's very much a trickster, like Vila, but he also has a certain kind of confidence in his abilities that is more Tarrant-like than Vila-like, IMO. And he's a fighter, which Tarrant is and Vila isn't. I always thought it was ironic the way the character Tripitaka is wimped out in the novel, since the real historical person must have been a very tough and tenacious character indeed to do what he did. But I guess that makes the fit with Cally all the better. :S I have no idea why Tripitaka was played by a woman, but it might perhaps have something to do with a Chinese opera convention in which certain specific male characters (e.g. Chia Pao-yu in The Dream of the Red Chamber; I'm not sure about Tripitaka) are traditionally played by female impersonators or, in a modern film or TV production, by actual women. Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 98 04:55:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant Message-Id: <199802120507.FAA11338@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Alex said: >again. I found C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia much more entertaining. I >don't think one should have to learn a whole new set of languages in order >to follow a story, as one is forced to with Lord of the Rings. Eh? But one certainly doesn't have to learn the languages to follow the story. The languages are just a fun extra for people who want to take the trouble to play with them. Well, and they are also why Tolkien's made-up names sound "right" in a way that few others do-- because he derived them from his imaginary languages (and/or from English itself, as in the case of "hobbit") in a consistent way, and being a philologist he knew exactly what he was doing. >And, as an addendum, I read Avon: A Terrible Aspect, and I didn't think it >was as bad as many people say. I won't say it was the next replacement for >Dostoyevski, but, well, it had a very nice cover. By fan artist Karen River. >Does anyone know where I >can find copies of those books which are supposed to take place PGP? The >ones which the authors didn't have permission for, and which I would just >like to read so that I can see what the closest "canonical" version is? Are you talking about fanzines with PGP stories? There are many, many, many of them. Judith's web site is a good place to look for info on ordering them by mail. And one excellent PGP is avalable on a web site-- Narrelle's =Phoenix= (sorry, I don't have the url on hand). Rob Clother said of Tarrant: >He's also got all the tact and sensitivity of a brick through your front >window (telling you your mother has died). Which is another thing people >find annoying. I dunno-- I think the all-time tactlessness prize has to go to Vila, for that comment about how Servalan would shoot a blind man in the back-- in front of Dayna. (He does, of course, apologise immediately.) I can't think offhand of anything Tarrant does that is equally thoughtless. True, they all had their less-than-admirable moments, but that's one of the things that makes the series so appealing. I don't see Tarrant as being any worse than any of the others, particularly in terms of interaction with Vila. Vila gets picked on by everyone in the show-- it's part of his role. >But he lacks the talent and insight it takes to be the leader of a team. >Avon is no braver or tougher than Tarrant -- just a more astute leader, >that's all. I don't see Avon as being such an astute leader; I think his main edge over Tarrant is simply age and experience. And maybe greater paranoia, which in the B7 universe is definitely a survival trait! Ah, I see Iain said: >I think he wants to lead the crew in exactly the same sense that Avon does. > >Neither of them are particularly good leaders, and neither of them has any >grand plan for the team. However, they both want to be top dog for >egotistical reasons. Yes, I agree. Although I tend to think of it as "top cat." The interaction between Avon and Tarrant reminds me of something I once read in a book on cat behavior. If two tomcats have to live together, there will be a period of fighting until they work out which will be dominant, and then, once the hierarchy is clearly established, they can live together fairly peacefully. It generally takes about six months, and the senior cat usually wins in the end, even if the younger one is bigger and stronger. This description sounded very familiar to me! Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 21:39:08 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Books, PGPs, Tarrant Message-ID: <34E28AFC.3B31@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Yes, I agree. Although I tend to think of it as "top cat." The interaction > between Avon and Tarrant reminds me of something I once read in a book on > cat behavior. If two tomcats have to live together, there will be a period > of fighting until they work out which will be dominant, and then, once the > hierarchy is clearly established, they can live together fairly peacefully. > It generally takes about six months, and the senior cat usually wins in the > end, even if the younger one is bigger and stronger. > > This description sounded very familiar to me! > > Sarah T. ROFL! That's exactly right. They even look kind of like cats. :) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:35:14 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] authors and such Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 On Tue 10 Feb, Alex Dering wrote: > And, as an addendum, I read Avon: A Terrible Aspect, and I didn't think it > was as bad as many people say. I won't say it was the next replacement for > Dostoyevski, but, well, it had a very nice cover. Does anyone know where I > can find copies of those books which are supposed to take place PGP? The > ones which the authors didn't have permission for, and which I would just > like to read so that I can see what the closest "canonical" version is? You mean like all those ones I publish . I've got several PGPs on my list. If you want novels, I have a few, if you want short stories in anthologies, I have loads! Take a look at my web page under 'fanzines'. If you don't have web access, just ask me for a list of PGP zines and their prices. Judith PS. I think it was Karen River who did the cover art for Paul's book. She's dome many wonderful fanzine illustrations over the years as well. -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 18:25:19 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [b7L] Paul/Michael/Gareth and acting Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1 On Wed 11 Feb, Iain Coleman wrote: > > Oh yes. Playing opposite a good actor bring your own performance up a > gear, and if the two actors can get into a positive-feedback loop you can > get two really strong performances. The off-stage relationship between the > actors is also a factor: if you get on well with someone, you can take > bigger risks with them on stage - and also, you are likely to be on each > other's wavelength, and respond well to what the other person does. Gareth > and Paul are a case in point. Absolutely. Those two worked wonderfully together. You can see the relationship at conventions too. There's a chemistry between Paul and Gareth that just draws the audience in. I never saw it better than at the Neutral Zone last year. The last session of the convention was almost nothing to do with Blake's 7, they were just swopping anecdotes about actors they had known, yet the atmosphere was incredible. The audience were completely involved. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:22:49 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's morals Message-ID: In message <5309.9802111953@bsauasb.nerc-bas.ac.uk>, Iain Coleman writes >I think Avon saw himself very much as a Nietzschean hero: powerful, >self-confident, far above the petty concerns and self-serving morality >of the masses, requiring no-one's friendship, support or approval, >serenely content in his own solitary superiority - The Superman. > >The extent to which this ideal corresponds to reality is left as >an exercise for the reader. > ROFL! I think this particular reality gap contributes a great deal to the entertainment value of the show... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 07:54:55 -0000 From: Alison Page To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's morals Message-ID: <887270548.1016049.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Much talk about Nietzsche. I think this is a really intersting subject - so thanks for taking this up. For instance: iain - > I think Avon saw himself very much as a Nietzschean hero: powerful, > self-confident, far above the petty concerns and self-serving morality > of the masses, requiring no-one's friendship, support or approval, > serenely content in his own solitary superiority - The Superman. > > The extent to which this ideal corresponds to reality is left as > an exercise for the reader. To some extent perhaps Avon was the kind of person N. wished he had been - devilishly handsome, man of action and intellect, not constrained by false morality. I think where N. went wrong was thinking that the alternatives in life were (a) Traditional christian morality which demanded that the strong sacrifice themselves completely for the weak and was nervous of vigour and joy (b) His kind of proto-fascism which demanded that the strong were completely cruel and ruthless, and treated the weak like cattle. Interestingly I think the character of Avon is better than anything Nietzsche devised. Which seems incredible, except that the people who helped to create the character are benefitting, as we all are, from hindsight of the 20th century and all the terrible things which have happened. I think if N. was alive today he would have been sadder and wiser too. I have really marked opinions about Avon's morality. I think he was clever enough to know that he lived in a terrible time in history, when there was no mercy given or shown. He knew that there would be 'no marks given for good behaviour',.so that if he decided to take a risk to help someone he had no false belief that this would guarantee success or gratitude. Given that with all these beliefs he still did act with compassion and loyalty - at least from time to time - seems to me to be particularly moral. This has always been my strongest feeling about Avon, that he marks a riposte to the two Nietzschean extremes. It is possible to be very vibrantly alive, to reject sentimentality and false comfort, without becoming a monster such as Nietzsche envisaged. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 08:13:27 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: "G. Robbins" Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind Message-ID: In message , "G. Robbins" writes >HI! > >Just passing along a few things that have been on my mind...well, >hypothetical questions, really, and a few comments. > >1. On Blake....(depending on these important variables) > A. The series went on for another season > B. Episode "Blake" just a nightmare > C. He rejoins the crew > What would it be like, or what kind of impact would it be for the crew > members (each one in particular)? I have been trying to think about > this and find it kind of interesting how he might have related to > people like Dayna, Tarrant, and Soolin. What do you think? > I guess the assumption is that Avon managed to track him down and contact him and then relocate to join Blake (after the Warlord fiasco blew their secret location on Xenon) with no bloodshed and no Federation involvement. Does Blake still retain his old charisma? I'd say he's even more impressive by the end of the 4th season than he ever was. He's now older and battle- scarred, lending him greater credibility as a leader who puts his own safety on the line and doesn't just give orders from the rear. I think Tarrant would quickly recognise Blake's leadership and follow him - all it would take is for Blake to praise Tarrant's skills, trust him with important duties and secrets etc. Dayna would quickly adopt him as her new father figure, probably taking on a body guard role, fussing over his diet and safety and (annoyingly to Blake) trying to prevent other people having direct access to him. Soolin would have the greatest problem accepting him, but she's an idealist under the surface cynicism, and once Blake started opening up and exposing his own doubts and fears about what he was doing she'd quickly melt and become his most loyal follower. >2. On Jenna...(depending on these variables) > A. The series goes on for another season > B. She rejoins the crew > C. Episode "Blake" just a dream > Just like above....what would it be like, or what kind of impact would > it be for the crew members (each one in particular)? I have been > trying to think about this and find it kind of interesting how she > might have related to people like Dayna, Tarrant, and Soolin. What do > you think? > I assume this is *just* Jenna, and with no Blake. I can't see this working at all well (except in drama terms). She's bound to clash with Tarrant over piloting duties and be jealous of Soolin because the woman is very much like her in a lot of ways (but younger :) She might just ignore Dayna as an immature unsophisticate, or she might cultivate her as a little sister in order to counter balance Tarrant's backers. I expect Avon would stay well clear of all the crew politics and let them sort it out between themselves, while Vila would be vacilating; giving his support to whoever browbeat him most recently. A plausible resolution is that Jenna's and Tarrant's struggle for dominance could turn into mutual respect and perhaps a romantic attachment. On the other hand Jenna could just lose her temper at one patronising remark too many and gun him down. I know which alternative I'd prefer :) > >3. What was the deffinative reason Cally was crying after defeating the >alien in >"Sarcophagus?" Was she sad because she had let the alien in (because she >had always been a generally sympathetic character and emotionally felt >akin to the being) and then felt horrible because she had led to its >death, and had heard it begging and pleading to live? Or was she crying >because it had tried to kill Avon? Or was it a little of both? > I'd always assumed it was sorrow at the final death of the alien, with whom she'd been sharing an intensely close bond. She empathised with the alien's need for survival and companionship, even if Cally couldn't approve of the methods it used. -- Russ Massey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 09:57:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Rob Clother To: B7 mailing list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Rob said: > >He's also got all the tact and sensitivity of a brick through your front > >window (telling you your mother has died). Which is another thing people > >find annoying. > > Examples? Sarcophagus: his treatment of Cally, which sparked off his little tete-a-tete with Avon. He was suspicious of her and wanted answers, but he went totally the wrong way about it. City at the Edge of the World and Moloch: his interactions with Vila. Both times, he was trying to enlist Vila's efforts. Both times he resorted to a battle of wills, which, in the latter case, he actually lost. By contrast, Blake would have known exactly how to handle the situation. > Tact and sensitivity isn't exactly number one on any of the crewmembers' > list of sterling traits. Except, of course, for Blake himself. And, perhaps, Avon -- who proves himself to be a surprisingly skillful diplomat, when necessity calls. You see, the reason I attach so much importance to tact and sensitivity is because those are qualities that separate leaders from dominant personalities. in Series 3, there's no doubt that Tarrant and Avon were jockeying for position. Strange as it sounds, it was Avon's tact that won him the leadership role in Series 4. Examples? Sorry, gotta go and talk to my supervisor now. I'll come back to this later, if the discussion is still going. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:46:23 +0000 (GMT) From: Rob Clother To: B7 mailing list Subject: [B7L] Cross-overs Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Has anyone ever conceived of a B7/HitchHiker's cross-over? It would be worth it just to see what kind of relationship develops between Orac and Marvin. :-> Rob ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:51:42 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: Alison Page Cc: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's morals Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 12 Feb 1998, Alison Page wrote: > Much talk about Nietzsche. I think this is a really intersting subject - so > thanks for taking this up. > > For instance: > iain - > > I think Avon saw himself very much as a Nietzschean hero: powerful, > > self-confident, far above the petty concerns and self-serving morality > > of the masses, requiring no-one's friendship, support or approval, > > serenely content in his own solitary superiority - The Superman. > > > > The extent to which this ideal corresponds to reality is left as > > an exercise for the reader. > > To some extent perhaps Avon was the kind of person N. wished he had been - > devilishly handsome, man of action and intellect, not constrained by false > morality. > > I think where N. went wrong was thinking that the alternatives in life were > (a) Traditional christian morality which demanded that the strong sacrifice > themselves completely for the weak and was nervous of vigour and joy > (b) His kind of proto-fascism which demanded that the strong were > completely cruel and ruthless, and treated the weak like cattle. > > Interestingly I think the character of Avon is better than anything > Nietzsche devised. Which seems incredible, except that the people who > helped to create the character are benefitting, as we all are, from > hindsight of the 20th century and all the terrible things which have > happened. I think if N. was alive today he would have been sadder and wiser > too. I think you're maybe being a wee bit unfair to poor old Nietzsche. This "Nietzschean hero" we're talking about is largely derived from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra", and your comments about morality sound as though they're from "The Antichrist" (though there are other possibilities, it's just that that is his most vicious rant on this topic). I don't know if you've read "Human, All Too Human" or "Daybreak". To me, these are his best books. There's a subtlety, a lightness of touch and a genuine human feeling in those books, as well as a lot of insightful and prophetic statements that sound as if they come from a 20th Century writer. I agree that Nietzsche would be sadder and wiser today - but not, I suspect, for the same reasons. (Actually, I think he'd be saddest of all about what his proto-Nazi sister did to his reputation.) > I have really marked opinions about Avon's morality. I think he was clever > enough to know that he lived in a terrible time in history, when there was > no mercy given or shown. He knew that there would be 'no marks given for > good behaviour',.so that if he decided to take a risk to help someone he > had no false belief that this would guarantee success or gratitude. Given > that with all these beliefs he still did act with compassion and loyalty - > at least from time to time - seems to me to be particularly moral. I'm with you here. Avon doesn't act out a code of ethics, which often makes him seem like a ruthless bastard. But for precisely this reason, when he does act for the sake of morality or justice it is absolutely sincere, and he will apply as much determination, courage and skill to that as he did to breaking the Federation banking system. Which didn't exactly go as planned, of course. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:33:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Various stuff Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi all! I said: >> I'm based in Cambridge (England) for those in this neck of the woods. Iain said: >So am I! Any other Cambridge bods around here? (Come on, there must be, >this town is full of sad geeks, sorry, cultured and technically literate >intellectuals.) Woo hoo! Whereabouts are you based? Nicole said: >Actually, what Sarcophagus illustrates is that the Humming Blue Egg can >manipulate the minds and emotions of the humans on board. A & T are >interacting 'normally' in the beginning of the ep. Just before Avon and >Tarrant start their rants, the camera focusses on the HBE; I choose to >interpret that as an indication that it is influencing their >interactions; as soon as it stops, both Avon and Tarrant drop the >postures. Both say something to the effect of 'Forget that', and they go >on. >So I've never bought that the scene defined their interaction, that deep >down that's what they really feel about their relative positions on the >ship. Just IMHO. I like this interpretation of events, but thinking about it, I'd also like to think that the HBE *exaggerates* their basic characters and relationship. It's almost as if they go into overdrive in that scene: Tarrant becomes brasher and more bolshie; Avon becomes icier and relies on an elegant remark to indicate his fury... Just a thought. Re: The Water Margin My God!! Someone else who remember this programme!! Whenever I see/hear 'Monkey' discussed I *always* say 'But 'The Water Margin' was so much better!!! And now someone has done it for me already!! I've bought some of the video releases and it is just *brilliant*!! Una --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064 Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701 Cambridge CB2 1AG United Kingdom http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:39:26 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] LOTR Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can't let it pass... ;) Alex, sorry you didn't enjoy Lord of the Rings. I *adore* it - but then I had it forced on me at an early age (six) by my dad. If you want to try it again ever, have a go at the BBC Radio 4 adaptation, which is possibly one of the best radio productions of all time; plus, you can do your knitting or something while you're listening to it! ;) The Narnia books are good, I agree. Una --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Judge Institute of Management Studies Tel: +44 (0)1223 766064 Trumpington Street Fax: +44 (0)1223 339701 Cambridge CB2 1AG United Kingdom http://www.sticklebrock.demon.co.uk/una/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 12 Feb 1998 06:36:01 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] On My Mind Message-ID: <86d41ecc.34e2dea3@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-11 22:09:58 EST, you write: << does anyone else think they saw something starting? >> No doubt in my mind. Avon tolerates the change of priorities when the Sarcophogus shows up, pretty much to humor Cally. And the glances he keeps giving her through the episode. Personal opinion; having resolved his Anna Grant fixation, he felt ready to attempt a relationship with Cally. Presumably when Servalan's fake Blake messages started arriving, he put the matter on hold, so that he wouldn't prematurally let slip what he was about, expecting to resume the relationship after the Liberator et al were re-united with Blake. And then Terminal happened.... no wonder the poor lad was a tad....aggresive in series 4. D. Rose -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #44 *************************************