From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #54 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/54 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 54 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Re: [B7L] Character morality Re: [B7L] Safety Re:[B7L]Cricket [B7L] A totally unrelated question RE: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Re: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Re: [B7L] oracle of avon Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Re: [B7L] UK Gold Re: [B7L] Size does matter Re: [B7L] Safety [B7L] Re: safety [B7L] Re: Blake's body count [B7L] Re: Speed of light [Destruction of Star One] [B7L] Permissions (slightly off topic) Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Re: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Re: [B7L] Permissions Re: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Re: [B7L] Permissions Re: [B7L] Re: Speed of light [Destruction of Star One] Re: [B7L] Permissions Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Re: [B7L] Re: safety Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) [B7L] Was Gan a psychopath ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 15:56:01 -0500 (EST) From: Sondra Sweigman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Carol says it's not necessary to reconfigure the teleport for pickup and cites evidence in support of her contention. She just may be right. (I'll have to keep my eyes open for additional confirmation / contradiction as I cycle through the episodes.) Still Cally did have to make *two* retrievals in "Deliverance" to get the two geographically separated groups, and "only seconds" is enough to matter here when you consider that the countdown had reached "1" before Avon finally got the bomb disarmed. So I reiterate that Blake was not making a noble gesture. To paraphrase Jarvik: Forget your abstract reasoning. (Forget even that Blake *said* he had no intention of staying as an act of solidarity.) Use your eyes, Carol. Just look at his face when he stops Vila from teleporting. That's not the expression of a man making a gesture. Blake is clearly terrified for Avon. As for 4000 miles being a "small distance", I don't buy that. If the radiation could travel that quickly, we wouldn't have been told that it would take hours to overspread the planet. (It's not as if it can teleport, after all. It presumably must rely on air currents to transport it.) Could it have interfered with teleport pickup of Blake and Vila? I can't imagine how, but I'll concede the possibility as falling under the "not negligible" part of the risk. Still the overwhelmingly greater danger was to Avon and Grant. That's now Blake called it, and when weighed against two lives, I can't get overly excited about Vila's transitory emotional suffering. Sorry, Lorna. (I do believe he REALLY wanted to leave though, Jeroen.) Sondra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:37:39 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Character morality Message-ID: <34ED24B3.661F@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith Proctor wrote: > Sex appeal and morality are not necessarily linked. I heard > once that good looking people are less likely to get convicted in court. I > believe it. Casting directors frequently reinforce this image. How often does > an ugly person get cast in a lead role? Very rarely. How often are beautiful > people villains? Not as often as they ought to be, and when they are, it's > often as the 'charming rogue' type. > Ugly person in lead role? How about Gerard Depardiu in just about everything he has been in? Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:47:47 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety Message-ID: <34ED2713.24EE@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Patera wrote: > This tendency to laugh in the face of "worst possible scenario" : could > that be an INTJ/P trait? I do that; at work on those occassions where > everything goes wrong; I simply crack up. It's laughing at fate, really. > For what else can one do? During the Briggs-Myers thread (alas, I had an > email jam up and then days of company during that marvy discussion) a > number of INTs identified themselves on this list. Do they laugh at > tragedy as Avon does? Yes. As a definite INTJ I can confirm that the project where I experienced the blackest humour and the most laughs was also the biggest disaster and the one with the most depressed (depressing) manager in charge. The worse it got, the more depressed he got and the more hysterical the team became - in the end his black depression actually lifted team morale. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:41:22 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re:[B7L]Cricket Message-ID: <34ED2592.7D9B@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, I have just read your cricket scenario. What were you on when you wrote this? This was one of the funniest things I have read in ages. Not very good at remembering the appropriate acronyms but LOL, ROFL :) etc. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 16:33:44 -0700 From: "John J. Doherty" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] A totally unrelated question Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980219163344.00816c20@gemini.oscs.montana.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please pass this on to as many people as you think might help. Yours truly has agreed to write a piece on science fiction and fantasy reference sources (literature and media). While I have some pretty good ideas of my own on what ought to go in such a piece, I am also looking for the tried and true resources that others use. Ideas would be more than welcome -- I'd even ante-up a beer or two in payment next time I'm in your neck of the woods. Please respond to me directly, or if you feel it's worth a discussion, I'd willingly join you on the spin list. Those interested in the final piece (it's going to be an annotated bibliography in Booklist magazine) should let me know too, and I'll email a copy. TIA. -- John John Doherty Asst. Professor/Reference Librarian MSU-Bozeman Libraries alijd@gemini.oscs.montana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 00:28:32 +-100 From: Hanneke To: "'lysator'" Subject: RE: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: <01BD3D96.D166B5C0@rotterdam-084.std.pop.tip.nl> Harriet said: >Carol Mc said: >>just to keep things fair, Blake's body count >>was a tad higher than that. We have Jenna, >>Klyn, the technician Soolin shot, Deva, and >>any other of Blake's people who were killed >>when the Federation popped by for a spot of >>mayhem. >Hey, Klyn is an Avon kill, so if we are making a direct comparison of Blake >and Avon follower-bodycounts it's a bit hard on Blake to put her in. Silly >Blake not to shoot a few of Avon's companions to tilt the balance back >again! Thin ice, Harriet. Now tell the world which one of Avon's gorgeous, tall, slender, curly haired companions you would have *liked* Blake to shoot? Hanneke (Oh God, I'm supposed to lurk on this list!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:08:21 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Message-ID: <199802200108.UAA16900@yfn.ysu.edu> Sondra wrote: >Still Cally did have to >make *two* retrievals in "Deliverance" to get the two geographically >separated groups, and "only seconds" is enough to matter here when you >consider that the countdown had reached "1" before Avon finally got the >bomb disarmed. But Vila was trying to leave long before the countdown reached "1." The double teleport in "Deliverance" took less than nine seconds. Vila could been back on the ship with time to spare to haul in Avon and Grant. > So I reiterate that Blake was not making a noble gesture. To >paraphrase Jarvik: Forget your abstract reasoning. (Forget even that >Blake *said* he had no intention of staying as an act of solidarity.) Use >your eyes, Carol. Just look at his face when he stops Vila from >teleporting. That's not the expression of a man making a gesture. Blake >is clearly terrified for Avon. The noble gesture begins long before Vila tries to leave. It begins when Blake learns that Avon and Grant have taken off their teleport bracelets. And Blake says, quite calmly, "We'll stay down here a little longer." There's no practical reason for him to stay. And even less reason for him to make that decision for Vila. I just watched the scene. Blake does not appear to be terrified. Which isn't to say that I don't think he was concerned, not just for Avon but for the entire planet. I've said in an earlier post that I can understand that the emotional stress of the situation affected his ability to think clearly. I'm not sure what else you want me to say. > Could it have interfered with teleport pickup of Blake and Vila? I >can't imagine how, but I'll concede the possibility as falling under the >"not negligible" part of the risk. Yet there needn't have been any risk at all. There was plenty of time for both of them to leave before the countdown reached a critical stage. But Blake allowed his emotions to rule his actions. I will repeat, I understand how that can happen. Blake was human; he made mistakes. I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:06:12 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] oracle of avon Message-ID: <34ED2B64.5C60@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Roger The Shrubber wrote: > > As a very trivial exercise, I linked Paul Darrow using the Bacon oracle to > the other main B7 actors in MOVIES ONLY. > Brian Croucher is covered under Jan Chappell Now there's a coupling I bet no-one has tried in fan-fic! Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:00:44 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Message-ID: <34ED2A1C.5F7@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jenni-Alison wrote: > Well, what if they all took off all their clothes and boots, then put > them, and Orac, who must have weighed fair bit, out of the airlock. > It might have worked, and would make a great start to a slash story > to boot! > OH MY!! Forget the slash implications - it is a lovely thought anyway.. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:56:04 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] UK Gold Message-ID: <34ED2904.4216@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk wrote: > You'll have to buy the videos though at some point cos most of > the UK Gold episodes are rather clumsily cut I've heard. > Yes you are probably right. I have been videoing them from UK Gold but recently I was off sick and decided to spend the day watching my favourite episodes. Winding on past the adverts is so annoying and I have watched more Worzel Gummidge then I really need to. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:59:11 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Size does matter Message-ID: <34ED29BF.6F31@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Calle Dybedahl wrote: > > STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk writes: > > > Is there any way the digests couldbe made smaller and more > > frequent? At the moment they are too big for my server and > > regular I get chunks chopped out of them as a result. > > Yes, it's trivial. But you make me wonder what kind of broken mail > system you have, since the current size is less than what was > considered a reasonable maximum limit back in 1985! When I originally found this list I subscribed to digest but I experienced the same problem as Steve and found I was missing loads of stuff. Hence my preference for the (oh dear what is the opposite of digest) - so you might get 200+ mails / week, but at least they all arrive. Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:52:49 -0800 From: "J. I. Horner" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety Message-ID: <34ED2841.154E@dial.pipex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat Patera wrote: > > Jenni-Alison wrote: > > > > Redemption: After losing Jenna on the surface, he, Gan and Vila go > > back to the surface and expose themselves to excessive radiation > > untill they find her, (and Meegat, a woman with taste!). Ok, Blake > > does make it clear he expects Avon to do it, but this is one of the > > few times Avon doesn't fight with Blake over risking his life. > > I like to think Avon is simply satisfying his INTJ perfectionist > tendencies. > This is the first occasion where Blake entrusts to Avon leadership of > the "away team." And Avon blows it; loses a crew member (and not a > disposable red shirt, either; no, he goes and loses the Silverback's > honey). Of course, Avon would choose to redeem himself at any risk > rather than live with the specter of failure-as-leader hanging over his > head. How could he ever snipe at Blake-as-imperfect-leader again if he > blows this one? > I think this is a bit unfair. OK he does have to save face after the exchange he had with Blake at the beginning of this episode. But even so his grim determination on the return to the planet does go above and beyond the call of duty. After all, she was with Gan when she went missing, but Avon does not point this out he simply takes responsibility and sticks out the search for as long as it takes (despite the distractions...) Julie Horner ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:28:28 -0500 (EST) From: brent@ntr.net To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: safety Message-Id: <199802200128.UAA10765@rome.ntr.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Louise wrote re: Orbit: >Sorry, but it _is_ about asking someone to die for you. If Avon does >nothing, they both die and that's pointless. I reiterate that it is not about "asking", since Vila had no choice in the matter. How can you ask someone to lay down their life for you when you already have the answer for them in the form of a weapon in your hand? If you feel safer in Avon's crew, fine, I'm just trying to make a point that Blake would not have pursued the same solution. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Vila and Blake may have both died in the crash and Blake would have been the better man for it. Think of what would have happened if Avon had actually been forced to flush Vila out the airlock. If he was becoming unstable before that, imagine what murdering Vila would have done to his psyche. And I do hope no one would interpret the murder of Vila as justifiable homicide. When you look at something solely through the eyes of pragmatism, the morality of an act gets lost. If you would follow Avon, then ask yourself whether you would have the guts to flush Vila out the airlock yourself, since following Avon is following his example. Alison wrote: >That's it exactly. I really wonder what people think Avon should have done >in that situation? The moral position between the two of them was precisely >equal. People with the weapons usually have the superior postion. Avon was the one holding the gun, therefore I see a distinct inequality. Defend Avon if you must, but you'll never convince me their moral position was equal. Because it wasn't. >By hiding in a cupboard Vila gave Avon two choices - die to save >him, or die in the crash with him. No, Vila simply gave himself the option of surviving a little longer. Who wouldn't have hid? I would have hid AND pissed my britches. Forget the shuttle crashing, Avon's trying to kill me (I'd deal with the more immediate danger first since that is one of the options Avon is giving me). When Avon picked up that gun and decided on a plan of action which involved the elimination of Vila, he limited his own choices. In fact, Vila's actions saved both of their lives when it forced Avon to search and enabled him to find the weight. However, the repercussions of Avon's first course of action nearly doomed them anyway because Vila didn't trust him enough to come out and help. This isn't about the immorality of Avon's actions in Orbit, it is about whether I would feel safer with Blake or with Avon. Survival with both could be argued to be about fifty-fifty, but with Blake, I don't have to worry about a bullet in the back from my leader when the chips are down. What sense does it make following a leader you may be forced to kill in order to save yourself anyway? By the way, if they both die, it isn't pointless. It shows solidarity and nobility--things the Federation didn't have. Things that Avon seemingly lost somewhere along the way. Brent ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:41:37 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-ID: <199802192242_MC2-3403-678C@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Carol replied to me: >>Hey, Klyn is an Avon kill, so if we are making a >>direct comparison of Blake and Avon follower- >>bodycounts it's a bit hard on Blake to put her in. >>Silly Blake not to shoot a few of Avon's companions >>to tilt the balance back again! >Well, it's not as if Avon shot her because he was trying to >up Blake's bodycount. What would you have Avon do in >that situation? I'm not talking morality or sensible courses of action, I'm talking plain accounting! Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:45:10 EST From: penny_kjelgaard@juno.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Speed of light [Destruction of Star One] Message-ID: <19980219.194029.9647.0.Penny_Kjelgaard@juno.com> Iain wrote: >Extrapolation's a tricky business. Have you heard the Creationist one >about the speed of light? NO, could you extrapolate? Penny _____________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:57:39 -0600 (CST) From: "G. Robbins" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Permissions (slightly off topic) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I just wanted to bring forward to everybody's attention that on my web page there are some pictures and miscellaneous things that I have sourced from other web pages. I should have asked permission to use these, but at the time I was a little greenhorn about web page construction. If you haven't seen my page, I would like to ask you to go there (http://www.graceland.edu/~robbins) if you happen to have your own page, because I might have inadvertently used something that you would not want me to use. I also could get in hot water with the BBC and my college. I'm so concerned because I just got this message from our webmaster here at Graceland College, and I see my mistake. Actually, I'm a little ashamed. I don't want to make anybody mad at me: >>It's an interesting page, but I'm wondering if you have written permission to use any of the photos you're "sharing" with us. Some people are willing to let others use their images if the photographer/artist receives credit for the shot, others adamantly refuse to grant permission and threaten legal action. I am alerting you about this because we do receive notices from copyright owners about unauthorized use of their images and sound files on our student pages. Copied images (photos and graphics) need to be taken off the Graceland server until permission is obtained. This would apply to the Blake's 7 logo too.<< PLEASE--PLEASE--PLEASE email me if you are infuriated that I used something without permission! I will imediately take it off without question....and to anyone I might have already made angry, I'm very sorry! --Grace Robbins robbins@inet-ux.graceland.edu http://www.graceland.edu/~robbins ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:56:04 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: "J. I. Horner" CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety Message-ID: <34ED0CE4.37AE@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit J. I. Horner wrote: > > Jenni-Alison wrote: > > > Well, what if they all took off all their clothes and boots, then put > > them, and Orac, who must have weighed fair bit, out of the airlock. > > It might have worked, and would make a great start to a slash story > > to boot! > > > > OH MY!! > > Forget the slash implications - it is a lovely thought anyway.. > > Julie Horner New title for episode, "Striptease". What a ratings boost it would have brought the show. :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 22:46:12 -0600 From: "Lorna B." To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Message-Id: <199802200448.WAA13066@pemberton.magnolia.net> Sondra said (after snippage): > As for 4000 miles being a "small distance", I don't buy that. If >the radiation could travel that quickly, we wouldn't have been told that >it would take hours to overspread the planet. (It's not as if it can >teleport, after all. It presumably must rely on air currents to transport >it.) Could it have interfered with teleport pickup of Blake and Vila? I >can't imagine how, but I'll concede the possibility as falling under the >"not negligible" part of the risk. Considering the usual care and detail paid to science in the B7 universe, I think it is *entirely* possible it could have interfered with teleport. >Still the overwhelmingly greater >danger was to Avon and Grant. That's now Blake called it, and when >weighed against two lives, I can't get overly excited about Vila's >transitory emotional suffering. Sorry, Lorna. (I do believe he REALLY >wanted to leave though, Jeroen.) Well, I *can* get excited about it because Blake's preventing Vila from teleporting was entirely unnecessary. In fact, to me it came across as grandstanding for the Albions. Sorry, Sondra, but that's the way I see it. In fact, I wish Vila had been in a snarky mood and told Blake to stuff it and teleport anyway. Lorna B. "You ever flown a flying saucer? After that, sex seems trite." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 20:59:27 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Permissions Message-ID: <34ED0DAF.84F@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit G. Robbins wrote: > Copied images (photos and graphics) need to be taken off the Graceland > server until permission is obtained. This would apply to the Blake's 7 > logo too.<< > PLEASE--PLEASE--PLEASE email me if you are infuriated that I used > something without permission!... Grace, I can't imagine you'll get much response from this quarter. How many of us have that lovely Blakes 7 logo decorating our personal pages? I know I do! On other sites I've seen whole fantastic wallpapers of the thing! Us complain? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Sadly, you are in school where the administration is breathing down your neck. >From out here, cyberspace looks more like Gauda Prime. It's ok to be an outlaw - until you get caught and killed. Plagarizing Pat P Or... has everyone but *me* written the Beeb and procured filed away that all important "permission to reproduce the B7 logo on your silly, tacky homepage" ?! ':o ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:47:28 -0800 From: Tramila Farris To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Countdown: Why Blake stayed on Albian Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980219234728.006a6c10@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > That's now Blake called it, and when >>weighed against two lives, I can't get overly excited about Vila's >>transitory emotional suffering. Sorry, Lorna. (I do believe he REALLY >>wanted to leave though, Jeroen.) >Well, I *can* get excited about it because Blake's preventing Vila from >teleporting was entirely unnecessary. In fact, to me it came across as >grandstanding for the Albions. Sorry, Sondra, but that's the way I see it. >In fact, I wish Vila had been in a snarky mood and told Blake to stuff it >and teleport anyway. Vila.... in a snarky mood! I like that. And yes. I agree. It was unnecessary to risk Vila's life to do a little grandstanding but unfortunately that was what Blake did best. Grandstand. Time to go back into lurkdom. Tramila waves at her friend Pat Patera. See! Here I am. Tramila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:50:07 -0800 From: Tramila Farris To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Permissions Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980219235007.006bc0b8@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Or... has everyone but *me* written the Beeb and procured filed >away that all important "permission to reproduce the B7 logo on your >silly, tacky homepage" ?! ':o In FK fandom, they simply place a copyright by next to the FK logo. Tramila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:20:43 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Speed of light [Destruction of Star One] Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 penny_kjelgaard@juno.com wrote: > Iain wrote: > > > >Extrapolation's a tricky business. Have you heard the Creationist one > >about the speed of light? > > > NO, could you extrapolate? Well, I'll give you the short version. The full story can be obtained from the talk.origins website (www.talkorigins.org, I believe). Are you sitting comfortably? Then I'll begin. Creationists (specifically, Young-Earth Creationists) believe the Earth was created around 6000 years ago. There is a problem with this idea, in that every concievable piece of physical evidence flatly contradicts it. In particular, radioisotope dating places the Earth's age at 4.6 billion years. Many Creationists go in for ad hoc technobabble excuses for the failure of nature to live up to their prejudices. This is but one of them. A few early measurements of the speed of light (made in the 19th century, I think) were slightly higher than the currently agreed value, by a factor of about 10%. Scientists generally just put that down to the great difficulty of measuring this constant at that time - you wouldn't expect great accuracy. The Creationists are a little more creative. They plot the measured speed of light as a function of time, fit an arbitrary curve to this data and find, surprise surprise, that it shoots off to infinity at 4004 BC! There are two main problems with this: (1) One could quite literally obtain any "age" one wanted by this method. Indeed, every aspect of the methodology is utterly laughable (2) as far as I can estimate, the effect this would have on the strength of the weak nuclear force would actually make radioisotope measurements an underestimate of the true age. Still, is's a laff, innit? If you're interested in evolution and associated issues, or you enjoy seeing ludicrous pseudoscience mercilessly demolished, I highly recommend the talk.origins archive. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:44:44 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Permissions Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, I'll tell you what I try to do, although I don't always succeed. If it's a corporate thing, like the logo, I don't bother with attributions although I suppose I ought to. I'm not going to get into all the copyright messiness (is the background on my web page a "transformative use" and therefore covered by fair use? Only a court case would settle it). My feeling is, and this is just my personal opinion, is that anyone who stumbles across a page and can't tell that Blake's 7 is a TV show and this is the logo (which shows up on everyone's page) has problems a copyright notice is not going to cure. I keep thinking I should go through the telepix on my site and put a copyright notice for the BBC up, though... (Any intellectual property lawyers out there? I'd like to talk to you about my dissertation...) But if I'm taking something from another fan, like many of the essays in my Data Bank section or the pictures in the caption contest or comments in the recurring themes section, I try to ask first and to give credit where it's due--because someone worked hard to create the essay or picture, it's their work, and unlike corporate producers, there is no other compensation. And with the written work, the original authors do have copyright. Even if they didn't, though. I think it's right to acknowledge their effort. But there are times when I've screwed up on that, I'm sure. I've rarely asked for permission to link to a page, although that used to be standard netiquette. Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:06:19 -0500 From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-ID: <199802201406.JAA21487@yfn.ysu.edu> Harriet and I continue to discuss the finer points of body counting: >Carol replied to me: >>>Hey, Klyn is an Avon kill, so if we are making a >>>direct comparison of Blake and Avon follower- >>>bodycounts it's a bit hard on Blake to put her in. >>>Silly Blake not to shoot a few of Avon's companions >>>to tilt the balance back again! > >>Well, it's not as if Avon shot her because he was trying to >>up Blake's bodycount. What would you have Avon do in >>that situation? > >I'm not talking morality or sensible courses of action, I'm talking plain >accounting! But we're not counting by who did deed, but rather by who was the fearless leader who put his follower in the position to be snuffed. Which makes Klyn part of Blake's total. Blake let Tarrant run free and allowed Avon access to the base without taking precautions to protect his followers. Neither Avon nor Blake ever actually killed any of their followers, though I have to admit that Avon came close on a couple of occasions. The Liberator crew believed Avon would have shot Tarrant in "Terminal" and Avon stalked Vila in "Orbit." But as the old saying goes, close only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes. And you can't count Avon's shooting Blake because Blake was never Avon's follower. Someone (sorry, I don't remember who) was saying that Blake was also responsible for the deaths of the Scorpio crew. But by my accounting method that just isn't so. Avon's people were on Blake's base because they followed Avon. Avon brought them to GP; Avon is responsible for their well being. (IOW, it was Avon's responsibility to realize that visiting Blake wasn't the safest of actions.) But since Tarrant, Vila, Dayna and Soolin are still alive, that doesn't up his body count. Susan Beth, thanks for calling attention to Nova, the forgotten hero. Carol McCoy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 09:54:13 -0500 (EST) From: NWOutsider To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Some day earlier this week, Carol McCoy wrote: > What would you have Avon do in that situation? He drops into a > hole in the ground, where he finds his favorite (and only) pilot > being harshly abused. Next thing he knows someone is calling for > "Security." Should Avon > > >(a) assume it is Blake's base and know this is all a misunderstanding Yup, pretty much. 8-) After al, Carol, _you're_ assuming Klyn is part of Blake's group even though there's nothing in the episode to support it. 8-) But, really, it shouldn't have gone that far to begin with. Avon had a lot of alternatives, right up to the minute he pulled the trigger (three times, at point blank range, on an unarmed man who had never hurt him and had trusted him). Avon shouldn't have dropped into that hole in the ground... Avon discovers that Blake is working as a bounty hunter on Gauda Prime. He's known this for weeks, maybe months. He knows that GP is crawling with law enforcement types and that he and his crew have large prices on their heads and may be recognized. He has contradictory opinions on Blake's purpose because he knows, and Vila knows, that Blake is highly unlikely to be a bounty hunter although Orac says it's so. Avon wants to get to Blake and approach him about joining forces. Should Avon: a. Rush on over to GP without doing much preliminary ground work, like contacting Blake to find out what's going on; take a flyer right into the base and barge around with his crew without doing any reconnaissance, even though the base is crawling with people who might recognize them as famous fugitives from justice; at best blow Blake's cover and your chances for the future, at worst get everyone killed by taking them in blind. b. Find some place to go between Xenon and GP and work out a plan, starting with finding out what Blake's up to, perhaps by talking to him from a safe distance. (Teal, for example, has at least one citizen who would roll out the red carpet for a bit). c. Check on your pilot in the rubble of your ship if it's shot down on approaching GP, asuming you decide to rush over. d. Assuming you rush over and your ship is shot down and your pilot picked up by persons unknown, follow the flyer to the base and land at a distance from it. Send one of your lesser known colleagues in to check the place out, and/or use Orac to try and contact Blake discreetly. Arrange for a meeting where your colleagues can cover you while you find out what's going on. e. Grow your sideburns and infiltrate the base by pretending to be an Elvis impersonator. Just some suggestions on how things could have gone if the script didn't call for a big shoot out at the end. Sue sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 07:36:31 -0800 From: Helen Krummenacker To: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-ID: <34EDA2FE.1DD4@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > But we're not counting by who did deed, but rather by who was the > fearless leader who put his follower in the position to be snuffed. > Which makes Klyn part of Blake's total. Blake let Tarrant run free > and allowed Avon access to the base without taking precautions to > protect his followers. > In that case, Guada Prime kills of Avon's crew go to both of them, since Blake planned for Avon to hear of him and come there. (While Avon had no influence over Blake's people on the planet, thus making them Blake's sole responsibility). But this is a strange manner of counting. Doesn't it depend too much on the circumstances life throws them? Bad luck or good luck plays an even bigger part sometimes than bad or good planning. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:36:54 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-02-19 20:34:12 EST, you write: << By the way, if they both die, it isn't pointless. It shows solidarity and nobility--things the Federation didn't have. Things that Avon seemingly lost somewhere along the way. >> Brent, this was a wonderful presentation of your viewpoint. I would disagree that the moral positions were not equel: only happenstance had Vila without a gun, something that doesn't involve morality. And with the quote above, the situation would indeed be pointless. They are dead; the Federation wins. As it is, Avon goes on to attempt to organize resistance to the Federation, and carry on Blake's fight. The man has seen himself as a fool, now he has to look upon his own cowardice. The only pity is that this is a thread that there was not enough time to follow up on in the series...and maybe find those qualities you feel he has lost along the way. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:38:55 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, NWOutsider wrote: > > But, really, it shouldn't have gone that far to begin with. Avon > had a lot of alternatives, right up to the minute he pulled the trigger > (three times, at point blank range, on an unarmed man who had never hurt > him and had trusted him). Avon shouldn't have dropped into that hole in > the ground... But sooner or later, everyone does. > > Should Avon: > > a. Rush on over to GP without doing much preliminary ground work, > like contacting Blake to find out what's going on; take a flyer > right into the base and barge around with his crew without doing > any reconnaissance, even though the base is crawling with people > who might recognize them as famous fugitives from justice; at best > blow Blake's cover and your chances for the future, at worst get > everyone killed by taking them in blind. Yup, absolutely. OK, it might not be the wisest of plans, but isn't it just Avon all over? I mean, Boucher is often criticised for letting plot dictate character, but this singleminded charging in is Avon's style (I was going to say "right up Avon's alley", but I know the kind of impure minds that lurk around here). Rumours of Death, Moloch, Terminal, the list goes on: once this boy gets an idea in his head, he goes straight for it,and never stops to think about potential screwups or contingency plans. Which is exactly the opposite of the way he behaves when Blake's in charge: critical, cool-headed, thinking out all the possibilities. But as soon as Blake's out of sight, it's "Logically they must all be dead. Let's leave" or "Telport to Servalan's palace: it's not as if there might be an insurrection in progress or anything". This isn't inconsistent: I'm a lot like that. I don't assume people are dead if they don't answer the phone, mind you, but I can always see the dangers and need for groundwork and caution in other people's work, but I tend to charge straight into my own projects in a very singleminded way. The more I think about this, the more worrying it gets. My former supervisor has retired and moved abroad, and I've started a new job in a different field. Whenever I next see him, I must remember not to shoot him. > > c. Check on your pilot in the rubble of your ship if it's shot down > on approaching GP, asuming you decide to rush over. But he's dead. THAT is the ONLY REASONABLE explanation. You do not FEEL it, you DEDUCE it! etc. > d. Assuming you rush over and your ship is shot down and your pilot > picked up by persons unknown, follow the flyer to the base and land > at a distance from it. Send one of your lesser known colleagues > in to check the place out, and/or use Orac to try and contact Blake > discreetly. Arrange for a meeting where your colleagues can cover you > while you find out what's going on. Exactly what Avon would advise Blake to do. Assuming Avon wasn't the messenger, of course. > e. Grow your sideburns and infiltrate the base by pretending to be an > Elvis impersonator. Now this plan has merit. "Is it him? It's him!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:41:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Personally, I say it's all Vila's responsibility. If he hadn't distracted that guard on the "London", none of this would have happened. Iain ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 11:26:29 -0600 From: "Reuben Herfindahl" To: Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety) Message-ID: <00a701bd3e24$af4c4d40$660114ac@misnt> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >OK, it might not be the wisest of plans, but isn't it just Avon all over? >I mean, Boucher is often criticised for letting plot dictate character, >but this singleminded charging in is Avon's style (I was going to say >"right up Avon's alley", but I know the kind of impure minds that lurk >around here). Rumours of Death, Moloch, Terminal, the list goes on: once >this boy gets an idea in his head, he goes straight for it,and never stops >to think about potential screwups or contingency plans. Which is exactly >the opposite of the way he behaves when Blake's in charge: critical, >cool-headed, thinking out all the possibilities. But as soon as Blake's >out of sight, it's "Logically they must all be dead. Let's leave" or >"Telport to Servalan's palace: it's not as if there might be an >insurrection in progress or anything". This isn't inconsistent: I'm a lot >like that. I don't assume people are dead if they don't answer the phone, >mind you, but I can always see the dangers and need for groundwork and >caution in other people's work, but I tend to charge straight into my own >projects in a very singleminded way. > This pretty much sums up my problem with the Blake and Avon set it all up theory. Avon is one stubborn single minded guy. Which I guess I understand. I hate those 2 hour meetings planning in intricate detail how to handle the distribution of a damn software patch.......(sorry, off topic venting) Anyway my other problem with that theory is Terminal. He went through all that to get Blake, and it WAS a set up. Somehow they managed to even fool Avon into thinking it was Blake, and don't forget the Blake clones. So when he sees Blake there is a big reason why he asks "Is it you?". A question that Blake leaves sorta unanswered and just acts on his hearts reaction to seeing Avon. Which was probably the worst idea since using the Pan Galactic Gargleblaster in drinking games. Reuben reuben@reuben.net ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:38:31 -0000 From: Alison Page To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Was Gan a psychopath Message-ID: <887993316.10724.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't find the earlier posts about this, but can I prod the topic a bit and get it going again? The way Gan acts when his limiter malfunctions is nothing like the action of a psychopath. A psychopath is typically very cold, though he might feign charm, and is quite dispassionate about using other people. Typical psychopaths we might meet are the leaders of gangs who are very relaxed about cutting rivals up, but otherwise function pretty calmly as long as they get their own way. Some psychopaths get satisfaction from seeing others' suffer, but they are quite calm about arranging the circumstances, and they'll bide their time until it is convenient. The only person I have met who acts a lot like Gan in that episode did was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia brought on by using Speed for a very long time. You could make a case that Gan was schizophrenic and the limiter controlled that. For example all that about 'he killed my woman' could be a delusion. Anyway I personally think Gan would be more interesting if he was a psychopath, but I can't think it is true. Alison -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #54 *************************************