From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #105 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/105 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 105 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] personal space Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Re: [B7L] Assassin Re: [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Some fiction Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Re: Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics Re: [B7L] personal space Re: [B7L] Arrogance (was Tarrant ) Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) [B7L] What's funny in B7 Re: [B7L] worst opening Re: [B7L] Arrogance (was Tarrant ) [B7L] Pictures from Pressure Point [B7L] Rookie fans Re: [B7L] worst opening Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Re: [B7L] personal space [B7L] Immaculate Miscoception [B7L] RE: Some fiction Re: [B7L] Pictures from Pressure Point Re: [B7L] Rookie fans ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:21:40 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Carol said (re: Avon & Tarrant): > "And I also think I'll keep him around so that I can get some payback time." Exactly! Mistral has a good point about humor in general, but I think in this case it was intended, and understood, as a challenge to Avon's arrogance rather than a joke. Sort of the first skirmish between 2 newly introduced alpha males. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:21:41 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/17/99 3:08:13 AM Mountain Standard Time, Mac4781@aol.com writes: > I can recall times when Jenna and Avon appeared on the same wavelength. I think she was > always aware that he had his own agenda, but I'm not sure she ever fully > believed he would do something she would consider to be unacceptable. But > that may be because both of their ideas of what is/isn't unacceptable > coincided. Jenna wasn't an idealist either. Jenna and Avon were a lot alike superficially at least, in the sense that they were both wary of other people's motives and generally expected the worst out of any situation. But Jenna, unlike Avon, seemed unhappy with that mindset - I think that's way she accepted Blake so readily. She may well have believed that Avon was *capable* of doing something she would find unacceptable, e.g. leaving Blake and the others on Cygnus Alpha, but that he would be unlikely to do so if he thought she would oppose him. I think they both respected each other's strength of will, ability to be dangerous if threatened (and general decorativeness, too), but I don't think she understood him particularly well. OTOH, I think they might have made nicely larcenous partners, if they could manage not to kill each other. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 23:27:33 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] personal space Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 03/17/1999 7:06:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mac4781@aol.com writes: << Aside from the fact that Avon's dialogue doesn't seem properly acerbic, it works for me. :) >> Interesting scenario, but I don't see it ending that way. Rather, after Blake finishes his wordy speech, Avon gives one of his nastier smiles and takes the pseudo-Blake(as he now deduces) hostage long enough to determine who its employer is. Or to rule out that Blake has been mind-wiped again. I just can't see Avon shooting Blake in GP under any circumstances other than the one he did it in. Wound tight, Blake chose the words that played exactly to Avon's worst suspicions. And he didn't remain still, a not unreasonable request given the suddeness of the meeting. Has anyone ever done a story where Blake did what he did as a suicide move? An unlikely event, but I'm curious about that possiblity anyways. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:43 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Neila said: >Portraying Nazis as competent genocidal thugs would at least bear some >relation to historical accuracy. That's why I think they should be >treated with respect (not to be confused with admiration). I tthink there may be a couple of points here. Firstly, I'm assuming that 'Hogan's Heroes' is that B&W programme that was made sometime in the 50s or 60s. I can imagine that a type of humour *very close to the end of a war in which plenty on the Allied side died* which mocked the 'enemy' was tremendously therepeutic for those who had lost family. We may cringe at it now - it doesn't serve the same purpose now. Secondly, isn't portraying Nazis as competent genocidal thugs just swapping one stereotype for another? It sets up an explanation of the Holocaust which ultimately leads us to shrug our shoulders and say - 'It was just evil at work, we can't explain it.' For all the faults in Goldhagen's 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' (and there are many) at least it demands us to consider what *ordinary people* were doing and *why* such atrocities were carried on not just by the lunatics, but with the complicity of ordinary citizens. Anyone wanting to see considered characterizations of German and Allied soldiers need only watch 'Colditz', quite possibly the best drama series that the BBC produced in the 70s. OT status of this post? Erm... well, I'd argue that Colditz was a greater triumph of the BBC 60s and 70s drama machine than B7. And now I duck. ;) Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:11:13 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mistral said: >Well, now. All you have to do is prove your pun theory wrong, andthen you >can go back to challenging Alison. Double fun for the price of your >admission. Ahh, but that sounds like hard work. >I was bread for puns. Bun there, done that. You're on a roll; I toast >you. Aaugghhhh As we say round here, whilst miming a little drum, 'Ba dum TISH'. See! *Causes* pain, but is not *rooted* in pain (and there's a visual pun in French here as well). Una ;) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 02:26:18 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <36F0D4C9.5A05C2CC@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una wrote: > See! *Causes* pain, but is not *rooted* in pain (and there's a visual pun > in French here as well). Wish I could *see* it, then. On a serious note then, I wonder what *is* the 'groaner' factor? I mean, if not for some deeply buried pain, why would a pun be 'bad', at all? When I hear a 'terrible' pun, the groan that escapes me is quite literally a physical twinge. What's the explanation for that, then? Mistral the Impunderable -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 10:49:23 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: , "B7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <002901be712d$605e1c80$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And here's another question - what in B7 still makes you (I mean anyone) laugh? What's the funniest bit? I think the first words that made me laugh out loud (dredging back into my own personal ancient history) were Vila describing the architecture on Cygnus Alpha as 'early maniac'. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 03:08:56 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <36F0DEC7.B179B04B@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > I think the first words that made me laugh out loud (dredging back into my > own personal ancient history) were Vila describing the architecture on > Cygnus Alpha as 'early maniac'. I'd have to draw up all sorts of hierarchical charts to decide my favorite gag; but the one that stands out in my mind from Cygnus Alpha, which is also the first one that I repeated to my best friend, is (paraphrased): Blake: What do you think it is? Some sort of weapon? Avon: It's a bit elaborate for a toothpick. Blake: Depends on how elaborate their teeth were. I just love it when Blake tops Avon -- it's so unexpected. (Sorry, Judith). Grins, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:03:00 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Message-ID: <32efc059.36f0eb74@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally wrote: > Carol, we are going to have to stop this rather fascinating thread, my > boss is going to kill me if work doesn't get a look-in soon... :) Never let it be said that I was responsible for *that.* I have enjoyed our exchange. It's always helpful (in fine tuning my own views) to see the perceptions of other fans. And I do think we've honed it down to where we see where our nuances differ. Good stuff. Thanks. > So am I. Does someone want to start up that thread on Servalan’s > wardrobe, so that I’ll sit back and shut up? Great idea. And for those interested in Servalan's "frocks" might I recommend John Ainsworth's wonderful interview tape: "Jacqueline Pearce in Conversation. 1. Servalan." Thanks to a very kind, persistent friend (Thank you, Jennifer!) who took care of this overseas order for me, I recently acquired a copy of this tape. It was well worth waiting for. Jackie appears to have put a lot of work into this effort, including reviewing all of Servalan's episodes before production. With only the slightest, skilled prodding by Ainsworth, Jackie explores Servalan episode by episode, including detailed commentary on Servalan's wardrobe. I think one of my favorite lines was when Jackie described Servalan as "not a caring and sharing type of girl." Jackie is entirely open, outrageous and highly entertaining. I very much recommend this tape. With the warning that it did take some time to get it (several months and a "where is that tape" reminder). The cost of the tape (for the UK) was listed as 5 pounds in the most recent issue of Horizon. John Ainsworth, 5C Peabody Estate, Lillie Road, Fulham, London, SW6 1UL. john.ainsworth1@vigin.net Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:06:18 GMT From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon) To: "U.M. Mccormack" Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: <36f1ead4.23416064@access.mountain.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:43 +0000 (GMT), Una Mccormack wrote: >Firstly, I'm assuming that 'Hogan's Heroes' is that B&W programme >that was made sometime in the 50s or 60s. Hogan's Heroes first aired from fall 1965 to spring 1971, but it was always in color. Only its pilot episode was B&W. Meredith Dixon dixonm@access.mountain.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:10:45 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" To: Meredith Dixon cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 18 Mar 1999, Meredith Dixon wrote: > On Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:43 +0000 (GMT), Una Mccormack wrote: > >Firstly, I'm assuming that 'Hogan's Heroes' is that B&W programme > >that was made sometime in the 50s or 60s. > > Hogan's Heroes first aired from fall 1965 to spring 1971, but it > was always in color. Only its pilot episode was B&W. Which doesn't *quite* knacker my argument, I think! Una ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:25:12 +0000 (GMT) From: "U.M. Mccormack" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se cc: space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] Some fiction Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Here's a crossover I've been playing with for far too long - hope it's worked out OK, and the crossover stuff isn't too intrusive. Many, many thanks to Lorna B. for advice, and Kathryn Andersen for her posts about writing for enthusing me again. All cock-ups are mine and mine alone. Una HEADSHOTS by Una McCormack ----------------------------------------------- _'You know,' he added gravely, 'it's one of the most serious things that can possibly happen in a battle - to get one's head cut off.'-_ Lewis Carroll, 'Through the Looking Glass.' ----------------------------------------------- Eyes flicker, open, blink at the light. Throat constricts, gags. And then the chest heaves, hauling in air, like a child's first gasps for breath in its first moments of life. Hand stretches out - clutches at the ground, feels grass and earth. Eyes focus, look ahead, see the sky, the ceiling of trees. And the face comes into view: pale skin, dark hair. And the eyes... intelligent, humorous, ageless. 'So you finally made it. About time.' Gasping, trying to form words, the many questions that are in my mind. 'I know, I know. What, where, when and who. There's probably a 'how' as well, if we're honest.' I pull backwards, drawing myself up, and see the uniform. He sees my eyes widen and shakes his head. 'Don't pay any attention to this. I imagine you've used it as a disguise often enough yourself. If I was really one of them I wouldn't have come back for you.' 'What's happened to me?' I force it out through dry, cracking lips. 'It's very simple. You died.' He smiles helpfully. I shake my head and look away. 'This is not a good time for jokes...' 'No, it isn't.' His quiet, serious tone makes me look up. He pulls himself down opposite me, holding my eye. 'You'd better listen, and listen hard.' And he explains. _'They shot you and they burnt the body. You've spent two months reconstructing yourself.'_ It takes a little time to convince me, as you can imagine. Immortality. _'There's just one small catch...'_ What can I do with this, this gift? What can the rebellion do with this on its side? It could make us _invincible_... We get up, start to go. 'One thing.' He turns to look back at me. 'I don't know your name.' He smiles like jewels. 'Call me Adam.' -_Invincible_... But when the first of the three shots hit, the shock was profound, and it felt like death really had finally caught up with me. _'Half the lesson is the death of an enemy, the other the death of a friend...'_ I thought I'd learnt that lesson. Dear God, how wrong can you be? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 05:37:51 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <36F101AE.573D482F@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne MacQueen wrote: > Mistral wrote: > >1) Ego issues (specifically insecurity manifesting as arrogance.) > >I do realize that you're probably bridling at the word insecurity, > >but his arrogance is waved in our face over and over and over, > >and arrogance is one of the most simple and direct manifestations > >of insecurity there is. As far as I know, there is no other > psychological > >cause for arrogance. > > Having difficulty with this one. As I've seen it previously, there is > genuine arrogance, as well as what my old boss referred to as > "overcompensation due to lack of confidence" (which may or may not > equate to insecurity). The latter is my problem, which is why I'm having > trouble seeing it as Avon's, because it's so rare for him to lack > confidence. Actually, I don't object to the term 'lack of confidence' as a substitute for insecurity; in this instance I'd consider them synonymous. As for 'genuine arrogance', I'm not sure I've ever seen that in a textbook; I'm certain I've never seen it IRL. > It's all acting, after all, but what is suggested is that more people > would have a problem with Avon's ego than he would himself, simply > because it's a pretty healthy one and he doesn't need to feign an > appearance of competence. When in doubt, he says it isn't his field - > others would babble something and hope for the best. The question that's > puzzling me is: if someone's that sure of himself in most situations, > where's the insecurity that's supposed to cause arrogance? I certainly would never imply insecurity with regard to his areas of expertise, or his education and intelligence in general. But frequently a high emphasis on intellect and education goes hand in hand with worries about *social* competence -- personal insecurities as opposed to professional ones. Avon appears to be remarkably secure about his education and intellect, I'll agree -- and he also has some highly polished social skills -- with regard to strangers, people he meets. But I know several introverts (myself among them) who initially do well at meeting people, as if performing on stage, but have rather more difficulty at getting to know people, and establishing appropriate levels of intimacy with them. I infer that Avon's insecurity is interpersonal, not professional. Which, BTW, would be remarkably consistent with an emphasis on knowledge and education as a cover for social cluelessness. It might be worth noting how often he touts his own intelligence, and denigrates that of Vila and Gan (both of whom are more socially adept than he is); also his fondness of both computers and games, both of which are predictable, unlike human beings. > I'd sooner > call Tarrant arrogant (sorry, Carol, but you'll forgive me, won't you?), > but from my angle, he fits the definition somewhat better than Avon, > because of his youth and a lack of long term association with the others > in the crew. We're probably also having a small semantic difference here; among my circle of friends IRL, we draw a distinction between arrogance and conceit; arrogance to us means you have something to back up your pride with (Avon does); conceit means you're imagining it. And I'm only referring to the use of definition in the preceding paragraph, not drawing conclusions with regard to Tarrant ;) Grins, Mistral -- "Just because you don't know how to build a high-energy traction beam doesn't mean that no one else knows how to build one."--Tarrant, to Avon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 06:05:39 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant Message-ID: <36F10832.B18CBAAB@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Bennett wrote: > Carol said: > > >>>And while Blake never clearly asked for an emotional commitment, > most of what he did put that pressure on his shipmates. It's not the kind of > pressure an introvert can easily tolerate (IMHO). > >>> The same with the beginning of "Pressure Point." Blake is clearly giving them > a choice about participating, but there's emotional pressure behind the choice > because they care about him. And an introvert would react--"He knows we care > about him and that we don't have a choice," not realizing that Blake genuinely > thought they had a choice. It's that the two different personality types > can't understand each other. Blake doesn't intend to manipulate, but Avon > can't look at Blake's actions in any other way.<<< > > Again, not really the way I would see it. Maybe it's a bit of the Thinking/Feeling > divide as well as introversion? Totally thinking vs. feeling. Many thinkers *completely* and *totally* *loathe* any suggestion of anyone trying to manipulate them using their feelings. It might be why many fen see Blake as manipulative and don't see Avon that way. Avon tends to persuade or overpower with logic, whereas Blake tends to tug at the heartstrings, or make appeals to the feeling 'conscience'. Probably impractical, but it would be interesting to compare list members T/F scores with their perceptions of manipulation re Avon-Blake. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 14:48:20 +0100 From: Murray Smith To: Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Like Alison, I laughed at Villa's 'early maniac' reference to the building on Cygnus Alpha. Other words and phrases I love are: 1. When Blake wakes up in the holding cell in 'The Way Back' to find Villa stealing his wallet, and grabs him, Villa's response of, 'Easy! Take it easy! I hate personal violence, especially when I'm the person'. 2. Villa's remark about the vegetation on Saurian Major in 'Time Squad', plus his remark to Cally that 'I plan to live forever or die trying'. 3. In 'Killer', Villa's remark that 'I always knew you [Avon] had a friend'. 4. In 'Gambit', the dialogue between Avon and Villa after the former outlined his plan to break the Big Wheel: Villa: Ohhhh, that is beautiful! Avon, there are times when I almost get to like you. Avon: Yes, well that makes it all worthwhile. Villa: I mean, you give me a warm feeling right here, around the money belt. 5. Avon's remark at the end of 'Ultraworld' that a logical rational intelligence was no match for Villa's. Also, a little earlier, Tarrant's remark that Avon wouldn't have minded being an entry in an encyclopedia, as long as he was filed under 'genius'. 6. In 'Death-Watch', Villa's remark that he hated physical violence, particularly when directed at himself. Also, at the end of the episode, after Avon tells Tarrant that, after killing Vinni, he is now the new First Champion of Teal, so must be prepared to meet all challengers. As neither of them want this, and understand the need to depart quickly, both say 'Bring us up' into their bracelets at the same time. 7. In 'Assassin', Soolin's explanation for striking Piri being that there were two ways to deal with a hysterical woman, and that she wasn't expected to kiss her. These are by no means a comprehensive list, being just things that sprung to mind. One scene I particularly like, although nothing funny is said, is when Villa is preparing to beam down in 'Project Avalon', when Cally and Avon are at the teleport. Villa takes his time about getting ready, including turning the temperature control on his thermal suit up too high; so Cally, usually so patient, tells him to get a move on. After she puts him down, she and Avon smile at each other, relieved that the task is done. Murray ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:35 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics Message-ID: <28c7cd58.36f11207@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Mistral writes: > I've always considered the relationships in B7 very familial, > since they were pretty much stuck with each other. To borrow a line -- "Daintily put." But true, nonetheless. > I'm thinking that given another series, the Scorpio crew would > have become the closest thing Soolin had ever had to a > family since childhood. Could be. She certainly seems to accept them all pretty readily, although that's probably partly simple pragmatism. She knew who they were and where they were, so it could have been difficult to persuade them to let her leave. And once she'd was identifiable as a known associate of theirs, she would have been more vulnerable on her own. I get the impression that she'd been on her own a lot of her life and was finding the group dynamics interesting. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:38 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] personal space Message-ID: <47400db4.36f1120a@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/17/99 2:30:17 PM Mountain Standard Time, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes: > I think it's another fan myth about Avon needing personal space. I'm inclined to agree. I think it may be a misinterpretation of his own intimidating presence. People generally *give* him a lot of space, so it might seem logical to assume that he *needs* it. But I can't recall any particular instance where Avon backs off (either physically or verbally) because someone gets too close. > Incidentally, why are fans so convinced that Gauda Prime could not have gone > like this: > Avon: Have you betrayed me? > Blake: Of course not. I'm disguised as a bounty hunter to test new recruits. > Tarrant didn't understand the situation because I'd tested him, but hadn't > had time to explain the real set-up to him. This is actualy a rebel base. > Avon: And you seriously expect me to believe a single word of that? BLAM Yeah, I can see that. Avon can be *really* unreasonable when he's cranky... Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 09:47:34 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: lcw@dallas.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Arrogance (was Tarrant ) Message-ID: <14857e9a.36f11206@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Lisa writes: > I think Avon exhibits both types. The simple assumption of authority in a > field you know damned well you're good at may or may not really be > "arrogance", depending on how you define the term, but it certainly looks a > lot like it to many observers. Avon's got that in matters pertaining to his > techie skills and to some extent his intellectual abilities -- he's smart, > he's good at his job, and he knows it. However, when it comes to dealing > with people and accomplishing goals, Avon's track record isn't too hot and > I see a *lot* of insecurity and "overcompensation due to lack of > confidence" in him there. I agree. NTs are frequently perceived as being arrogant, when their intention is simply to communicate clearly and succinctly. Avon has no qualms about his professional competence and sees no reason for false modesty. But on a personal level, he seems to have learned that an air of arrogance and personal menace causes most people to keep their distance, so he uses that to push others away when they make him uncomfortable. Sort of "the best defense is a good offense" approach. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:17:15 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <36F118FA.445F6872@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral again : > the basically moral person behind the nasty facade.> > > Ummm. He also sees the basically amoral person in there too. I think > Avon would have a hard time shocking or even surprising Blake, whichever > way he turned in any situation. (All right, all right, until Gauda > Prime.) Sally, I'd like some clarification here: what exactly do you meanwhen you say amoral? My understanding of the word means 'without morality'. Which I understand to mean a person would do whatever is convenient or strikes one's fancy at the moment. I don't ever see Avon as basing moral decisions on whims or convenience. What I do see is him having a completely *different* set of morals from the average person, which he *never* violates. One of my dearest friends is like this, and those of us who know and love him agree: he might do many things which the average person would consider questionable, even evil; but he would never violate his own principles. This is where I see Avon; very different in values from most people; but completely consistent in his internal values and morality. My reading of Blake's complete lack of surprise over Avon's behaviour most of the time was because Blake grew to understand this fairly quickly; he comprehended Avon well enough to predict his most likely course of behaviour, and realized that his assessment would be wrong on occasion, and therefore was rarely surprised even when he was mistaken. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:17:21 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant (was Assassin) Message-ID: <36F11901.D32C7BC9@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally Manton wrote: > Mistral again : > the basically moral person behind the nasty facade.> > > Ummm. He also sees the basically amoral person in there too. I think > Avon would have a hard time shocking or even surprising Blake, whichever > way he turned in any situation. (All right, all right, until Gauda > Prime.) Sally, I'd like some clarification here: what exactly do you meanwhen you say amoral? My understanding of the word means 'without morality'. Which I understand to mean a person would do whatever is convenient or strikes one's fancy at the moment. I don't ever see Avon as basing moral decisions on whims or convenience. What I do see is him having a completely *different* set of morals from the average person, which he *never* violates. One of my dearest friends is like this, and those of us who know and love him agree: he might do many things which the average person would consider questionable, even evil; but he would never violate his own principles. This is where I see Avon; very different in values from most people; but completely consistent in his internal values and morality. My reading of Blake's complete lack of surprise over Avon's behaviour most of the time was because Blake grew to understand this fairly quickly; he comprehended Avon well enough to predict his most likely course of behaviour, and realized that his assessment would be wrong on occasion, and therefore was rarely surprised even when he was mistaken. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1999 01:14:09 +1000 From: Taina Nieminen To: "'B7'" Subject: [B7L] What's funny in B7 Message-ID: <01BE71A5.CAEC5120@TENZIL> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Orac's megalomania in the spaceopoly game at the start of Dawn of the Gods. Orac grovelling to be moved away from the imminent explosion in Power (?). Taina ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:23:59 -0000 From: "Dangermouse" To: "Judith Proctor" , "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] worst opening Message-Id: <199903181523.PAA18559@gnasher.sol.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ---------- > From: Judith Proctor > To: Lysator List > Avon had not known that Servalan was capable of such depths of depravity - to > lure him to Terminal with a computer animation of his teddy bear... No opening line, but I have this nightmare vision of B7/Third Rock Avon = Dick Vila = Harry Tarrant = Tommy Dayna = Sally Cally = Albright Orac = Nina And I don't even want to think about casting the two Travises as Jules and Vincent from Pulp Fiction... -- "When two hunters go after the same prey they usually end up shooting each other in the back - and we don't want to shoot each other in the back, do we?" http://members.aol.com/vulcancafe ------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:31:07 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Arrogance (was Tarrant ) Message-ID: <468E4602608@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm back! It looks like I've probably missed some interesting things while I've been unsubbed. > > I think Avon exhibits both types. The simple assumption of authority in a > > field you know damned well you're good at may or may not really be > > "arrogance", depending on how you define the term, but it certainly looks a > > lot like it to many observers. Avon's got that in matters pertaining to his > > techie skills and to some extent his intellectual abilities -- he's smart, > > he's good at his job, and he knows it. However, when it comes to dealing > > with people and accomplishing goals, Avon's track record isn't too hot and > > I see a *lot* of insecurity and "overcompensation due to lack of > > confidence" in him there. Haven't I said this before? I agree totally. Avon is useless with 'people dynamics', they're just a part of the machine, data carriers. INTP's in their later years will always appear arrogant, as they come to realise that other people are just faking an understanding. When I foul up socially, I always overcompensate. This is inclined to make matters worse, unfortuanately. We never get to witness Avon foul up in the purely social sense, but I bet he'd die blaming himself when he realised the error of his ways. A faux pax caused by overlooking a vital piece of data, of just a lack of envivonmental awareness? The reason wouldn't matter, but it would make him look inept either way. I have always found Tarrant to be the most truly pig arrogant character in B7, and I've never liked him one bit. Vick > 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:44:16 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Pictures from Pressure Point Message-ID: <4691C9A6D88@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Does anyone have any stills of Kasabi and Travis, and Veron from Pressure Point, ie. grabs from video? I need some for a picture I'm painting at the moment and I don't have the means to grab them myself. I'd appriciate it if someone could help. Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 15:56:17 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: <4694F565901@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just something I've been musing over. Are rookie fans dangerous? In the UK we tend to have reasonable relationships with actors etc from Who and B7, so fandom seems a fairly friendly place, quite unlike the theatricals and commercialism of the Trek scene. The question I raise is based on the assumption that there are a lot of highly enthusiastic even obsessive young fans, late teens, early twenties out there, who thought they know their subject, know nothing of the tacit agreements known by the long term fans. It's rather like there is a rule book, but no-one has seen it. The rookies, however, have no such obligations. They are free to write fanzines, run clubs, websites and even conventions without really knowing that their arrogance and nievity is damaging to fandom in general and annoying to the subjects of the fandom. ie. the actors who are tired of being asked the same questions over and over about a job they did 20 years ago, then being misquoted. The rookie website/fanzine can often be embarrassing to behold. Even then there's the poor public opinion of fandom in general to consider. This begs the question; do fans really have any moral obligations at all? And should they? Vick 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 16:03:01 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] worst opening Message-ID: <004601be7158$e516f3e0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit DM said - >I have this nightmare vision of B7/Third Rock > >Avon = Dick >Vila = Harry >Tarrant = Tommy Good call. I basically fancy Harry because he reminds me of Vila. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 12:17:12 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? Message-ID: <40d21ff5.36f13518@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit My absolute favorite is the ultimate put-down in the episode Breakdown. Avon telling Blakem "I no longer feel able to maintain the level of stupidity nessacary to remain here," or words to that effect, with Blake responding, "You underestimate yourself." I suspect that this ability of Blake to match Avon's scathing verbal assaults is one of the reasons Avon stays around. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 07:37:21 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L] personal space Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > > Incidentally, why are fans so convinced that Gauda Prime could not have > gone > > like this: > > > > Avon: Have you betrayed me? > > > > Blake: Of course not. I'm disguised as a bounty hunter to test new > recruits. > > > > Tarrant didn't understand the situation because I'd tested him, but hadn't > > had > > time to explain the real set-up to him. This is actualy a rebel base. > > > > Avon: And you seriously expect me to believe a single word of that? BLAM > > Aside from the fact that Avon's dialogue doesn't seem properly acerbic, it > works for me. :) Blake is actually giving too much information at once. It > does make him sound guilty. Well, actually Avon would just have said 'Liar!', but I was trying to explain his thought processes. so. AVON: Liar BLAM Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 18:29:25 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Space City , Lysator Subject: [B7L] Immaculate Miscoception Message-ID: <36F14604.2627D3A0@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paula Robinson and I are going to see Stephen Grief in Immaculate Misconception on Friday 26 March at the New End Theatre in Hampstead, London NW3. Does anyone fancy joining us? Email me privately if you do and we'll arrange somewhere to meet. Box office number is 0171 794 0022. For those going on other dates, the play's run now ends on 18 April, not 24 as someone posted earlier. It also does not play on Mondays. -- cheers Steve Rogerson "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 19:04:34 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] RE: Some fiction Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FB6F@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain Besides Morgan, this may well be the best piece of fan fiction I've read so far. Will there be more? Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 13:18:11 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Pictures from Pressure Point Message-Id: <4.1.19990318131632.0371c540@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" VJC wrote: >Does anyone have any stills of Kasabi and Travis, and Veron from >Pressure Point, ie. grabs from video? Well, there are the 158 images from "Pressure Point" in my frame capture library (URL in my sig), several of which feature those characters. - Lisa _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/ ------------------------------ Date: 18 Mar 1999 20:51:20 +0100 From: Calle Dybedahl To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Rookie fans Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII "VJC" writes: > The question I raise is based on the assumption that there are a lot > of highly enthusiastic even obsessive young fans, late teens, early > twenties out there, who thought they know their subject, know > nothing of the tacit agreements known by the long term fans. Do you have any reason whatsoever to believe such fans exist? If so, tell us about it. As it is now, you mainly come across as insulting to young fans. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "I came out of that meeting so full of enthusiasm that I spent the next two hours updating my resume" -- Paul Tomblin -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #105 **************************************